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Ore thiefs punished

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Andrue	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:14:00 - [1] No. The proposed theif flag between theif and can creator is good enough. Concord should not leap in to attack someone that is just taking advantage of someone else' laziness. That needs to be reinforced. Jettisoned material is publicly available and you have to accept the risks in making it publicly available. OTOH it would be nice for the morally wronged player to have a short window in which to vent their frustration and attempt revenge. Think of it as Concord turning a blind eye for short while. I think that the flag should only activate if the item is within range of its owner. This means that you have to be somewhere near to benefit. No leaving of cans in a belt then sitting at the sun waiting for the notification. If you have warped out to haul stuff to a station then the thief can sneak in while you are away without fear of triggering the flag. I'm not clear about the implications wrt gangs. Probably the flag should be awarded to the gang leader (only if they are within range at the time?) and not transferable although its effects apply to everyone in the gang that is in range of the leader whether existing or new members. In effect by being near the gang leader you have the legal right to attack a thief. This means that if you form a gang to go after the naughty person you have to be gang leader. If you were working in a gang and wish to pursue vengance the gang leader needs to part of the raiding party. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:19:00 - [2] Originally by: Cute JapaneseChick I hope they do this. I'll grab 1 trit out of your can, then warp to my Apoc in a safespot and then take your ore AND your barge!! Nope. This has an easy fix - you cannot be the aggressor. The flag gives the owner the right to initiate aggression not both of you. They will chase you, find the Apoc and after spending five minutes orbitting you and hurling insults they will fly back and continue mining. Or dock and have a cry. It remains their choice whether or not to engage you. Once they have engaged you then you have the chance to fight back of course. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.04.13 15:28:00 - [3] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Andrue They will chase you, find the Apoc and after spending five minutes orbitting you and hurling insults they will fly back and continue mining. Or dock and have a cry. It remains their choice whether or not to engage you. Once they have engaged you then you have the chance to fight back of course. Well, there is theoretically the possibility of a hole people could use to get round this. If the miner shoots, and the thief manages to get away, how long does the "legitimate defence" flag last? If it's just a simple timer after the last shot, they could probably warp away, switch ships, and warp back before it counted the aggression as over. Of course, it wouldn't be that hard to clear the flag on dock/jump/eject and stop them switching ships. Hmmm. Two answers to that I suppose: 1.That's the risk you take. Revenge is often not a good idea. If you choose to take that option up you live with the consequences. 2.The flag buff can be withdrawn by the flag owner. Regardless of who has fired at whom the player with the flag can choose to cancel the flag and have all concerned parties returned to Concord enforced neutrality. In effect the theft victim can admit defeat and just cancel the whole revenge idea. All parties must of course get an obvious and non-ignorable notification of this. I don't think that it should be possible to lure the ore theif into aggressing by secretly cancelling the flag. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.04.13 16:12:00 - [4] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Andrue 2.The flag buff can be withdrawn by the flag owner. Regardless of who has fired at whom the player with the flag can choose to cancel the flag and have all concerned parties returned to Concord enforced neutrality. In effect the theft victim can admit defeat and just cancel the whole revenge idea. All parties must of course get an obvious and non-ignorable notification of this. I don't think that it should be possible to lure the ore theif into aggressing by secretly cancelling the flag. Only problem with this is missiles, with their non-instant effects. A pop-up saying that the flag is cancelled and not to agress isn't much good when your missiles are already half-way to their target. Good point. It depends on how aggression is detected I suppose. Is it detected when you fire a weapon or when the damage is done? What happens now if you launch a missile then the target warps away? Does the launcher end up having a brief chat with Concord? -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:03:00 - [5] Edited by: Andrue on 13/04/2005 22:07:42 Originally by: RollinDutchMasters Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 13/04/2005 17:53:03 Originally by: Andrue 2.The flag buff can be withdrawn by the flag owner. Regardless of who has fired at whom the player with the flag can choose to cancel the flag and have all concerned parties returned to Concord enforced neutrality. In effect the theft victim can admit defeat and just cancel the whole revenge idea. Holy abusable game mechanics, batman! How is that abusable? All that happens is that the miner is distracted away from mining for ten minutes, gets overexcited then is betrayed as the coward he really is. The thief has a laugh, gets some practice in on his smack talk then goes after another victim. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.04.14 14:18:00 - [6] Originally by: d Ankou Flagging won't work. Its too exploitable to allow players to flag other players. Example: I'm gate camping in 0.7 space. You fly past me. I flag you as an ore theif (even tho you weren't but how do you/I prove this). Once your flagged unfairly you're fair game to me. Even if it looks at if the flagged removed unclaimed cargo from a can first, its still got holes. I'm no ore theif but lets face it. There are already steps taken to prevent ore theft (secure cans for example). Personally I'd like to see 0.7 and below having open combat in roid fields. You could do as you pleased then I don't see anyone suggesting that you can arbitrarily flag people. The only person that can initiate a flagging is the theft victim and only against the thief. What I have suggested is that when someone unauthorized takes stuff from your can Concord gives you the opportunity to criminal flag that person (to you [and your gang mates if you are leader] only). You don't have to take that option up if you don't want to. Having taken it up you can withdraw it but not without the thief being made aware of its withdrawl. I see a Criminal Flag (CF) being a free pass that allows the holder to aggress (ie;start a fight) against the thief. You have 30mins (or whatever) to do this. Once the fight has started it becomes a matter between the two parties but should probably also have a time limit. The flag holder has the right to cancel the fight at any point. When the flag is cancelled all parties are informed that the matter is over and normal relations must be resumed. The only issue I see here is the fine detail of withdrawing the flag. We would need to address the issue of delayed damage weaponry (firing torps or missiles then having the flag withdrawn before they hit). We also need to ensure that the thief gets adequate warning that sanctioned combat has ended. This is harder to address. My solution:I favour a timed countdown to end of hostilities. IOW flag withdrawl is not instant. There is a cooling down period for ordnance to reach its target and if the countdown appears on screen somewhere prominent it serves as multiple warnings to cease combat (or finish the job quickly). One issue here:I'm not giving the thief a way to stop the fight other than sit it out. I don't know if this is reasonable or not. If they are given the chance to cancel it I think it needs to involve compensating the victim. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.04.14 21:53:00 - [7] Edited by: Andrue on 14/04/2005 21:54:52 Originally by: Karl Borhman BAH! You sissies! Find a system off the beaten path to mine in! I regularly jet can mine systems from 0.5-0.8 without ever getting my ore pilfered and I work alone for the most part. For most of us this is not about stopping ore thieves. It's about making it into a playable part of the game by opening up the possibility for revenge. I have been mining for most of my Eve career (over a year now) and I have never had ore stolen. I am one of the people that tells whiners to go find a quiet system and stop whining. But I am also someone who would enjoy kicking the arse of anyone bold enough to steal from me. I'd like to see CCP open up that part of the game and give us a bit more fun. I imagine that most miners won't take up the offer. I also imagine that a number of lame-ass thieves will be frightened off. But those thieves who are making this a career and those miners not afraid to fight will have a lot more fun. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.

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