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The way of thought in EVE and whats gone sour

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boubou bzh	Posted - 2005.04.12 06:21:00 - [61] i donnot do pvp but : if warp scrambled when logg of : bye bye ship (pod). if not, then u have a little chance to survive with warping, but not desappearing.
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.12 08:23:00 - [62] Originally by: Antic Edited by: Antic on 12/04/2005 00:33:50 i agree with noriath. add the fact that said PVP "pirates" will run and hide in a station or log off themselves if the people attacked sends a taskforce with real properly equiped pvpers to take them out. this is another issue, I'm not the kind of guy who run off from a even fight, so that point is moot if you were addressing me. I still dont think this justifies logging off in combat
V2GBR	Posted - 2005.04.12 08:40:00 - [63] Ships can be replaced ! Why log die with honour. This needs sorting before it gets way out of control. ---------- http://guc.webinventions.co.uk <-- GUC Site. www.webinventions.co.uk <-- My eve history.
Antic	Posted - 2005.04.12 08:44:00 - [64] Hast, Logging off has accured in all mmogs. And it has been dealth with in all mmogs. Im sure it will be in eve too. But the fact is that once it has been dealth with other stuff has bloome dup to be the cause of whining. Everyone in eve pvping use gank setups cus thats their only chance to end up ontop. So i dont know why this timer is sucha big deal. 10 minutes? when did it take 10 minutes for a ship to get destroyed last? It takes friggin seconds nowadays. I think this is being blown out of proportion. If ganking was fixed then sure id agree. But right now i think theres far more important issues that needs fixing before petty details like this. Like said gank system wich makes eves pvp combat uninteresting.
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.12 08:47:00 - [65] Edited by: Hast on 12/04/2005 08:47:31 Originally by: Antic Hast, Logging off has accured in all mmogs. And it has been dealth with in all mmogs. Im sure it will be in eve too. But the fact is that once it has been dealth with other stuff has bloome dup to be the cause of whining. Everyone in eve pvping use gank setups cus thats their only chance to end up ontop. So i dont know why this timer is sucha big deal. 10 minutes? when did it take 10 minutes for a ship to get destroyed last? It takes friggin seconds nowadays. I think this is being blown out of proportion. If ganking was fixed then sure id agree. But right now i think theres far more important issues that needs fixing before petty details like this. Like said gank system wich makes eves pvp combat uninteresting. well, if I had more then 2minutes to kill a ship then I wouldnt fit a gank setup would I? Imagine this, I'm out there on my own in my Tempest. Spot a lone npc'er with uber mods in the belt... get in scrambles him and so on, No way I'm gonna kill him in 2 minutes, I might even have to kill his cap before I can kill him... But he just have to have enough cap to run his tank for two minutes...
Elmek	Posted - 2005.04.12 20:59:00 - [66] Interesing Shinra started this thread as their pilots use the log off tactic more than most. Mek
Chakka	Posted - 2005.04.12 21:10:00 - [67] We need a much increased timer before your ship vanishes when you log. I would go for 30 minutes in all circumstances. This would give an organised enemy fleet time to locate and destroy a ship using probes, if they have them. And this would make logging off en-masse a risky tactic, instead of the guarateed escape that it is at the moment. Many of the alliances in 0.0 have for several months been fighting against various small organised groups of insurgents who enter our space and attack our shipping whenever they have a numerical advantage. I have no problem with that, its all fair so far. (its not fun for us, but I cant complain) However, when we organise any kind of fleet to go get them, they log, all at the same time. This happens almost every time. Do you know how hard it is to persuade guys to join a gang and go get these insurgents when everyone KNOWS that no fighting will happen? We raise the gang, we go to where they are, they log.... we wait for a couple of hours... occassionally one of them logs in for a few seconds to see how many of us are still there.... Eventually the defending fleet dissipates, people go to bed etc... Wow... what a fun time playing eve... If the insurgents really want to be able to move around hostile space when there are enemy fleets actively hunting them, in the knowledge that they can always avoid an engagement, there is a INGAME way for them to do this, and they are called Cloaking devices. This is what they are for. Co-ordinated Mass log-outs and log-ins are a clear abuse of game mechanics, and to me, its the single most annoying thing about the game, a simple increase in the timer wont hurt anyone it should not, so please make it a priority CCP.
Voltex	Posted - 2005.04.12 21:18:00 - [68] Signed, but logging off doesnt always work, And it being at 8mins could be very bad, if for example you HAVE to log off un-expectadly in space or if your internet connection dies, you are left vunarable in space, meaning u could be npc killed or even a very un-lucky player kill. They shud just make a simple rule that if you are scrambled you cant warp away, NO MATTER WHAT, even if u log. I agree they shud increase the time limit, but only a tad. And you only warp away when u log if you are not scrambled. 'Your 250mm Carbide completely misses Guristas Annihilator, Doing 0 damage'
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.04.12 21:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Chakka We need a much increased timer before your ship vanishes when you log. I would go for 30 minutes in all circumstances. This would give an organised enemy fleet time to locate and destroy a ship using probes, if they have them. And this would make logging off en-masse a risky tactic, instead of the guarateed escape that it is at the moment. Many of the alliances in 0.0 have for several months been fighting against various small organised groups of insurgents who enter our space and attack our shipping whenever they have a numerical advantage. I have no problem with that, its all fair so far. (its not fun for us, but I cant complain) However, when we organise any kind of fleet to go get them, they log, all at the same time. This happens almost every time. Do you know how hard it is to persuade guys to join a gang and go get these insurgents when everyone KNOWS that no fighting will happen? We raise the gang, we go to where they are, they log.... we wait for a couple of hours... occassionally one of them logs in for a few seconds to see how many of us are still there.... Eventually the defending fleet dissipates, people go to bed etc... Wow... what a fun time playing eve... If the insurgents really want to be able to move around hostile space when there are enemy fleets actively hunting them, in the knowledge that they can always avoid an engagement, there is a INGAME way for them to do this, and they are called Cloaking devices. This is what they are for. Co-ordinated Mass log-outs and log-ins are a clear abuse of game mechanics, and to me, its the single most annoying thing about the game, a simple increase in the timer wont hurt anyone it should not, so please make it a priority CCP. I really like this idea. It sounds quite reasonable and goes along my idea of forcible combat. I know there will be risks for people logging off in space simply cause they need to do stuff in real life. I often log off in space, but I'm willing to take this risk. Considering how bad scanning probes are, it's not that much of a risk.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.04.12 21:30:00 - [70] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 12/04/2005 21:30:26 Originally by: Elmek Interesing Shinra started this thread as their pilots use the log off tactic more than most. Mek Hi alt! Nice to meet you! So, about this logging off thing. I don't recon you have any FRAPS footage of us doing this? No? Ah, pity... A screenshot maybe? Ah, don't worry. Maybe you have some names for us? You don't? Damn, i dont think i can help you then. Maybe come back once you grow some balls and post with a main? Just to add to this. Another annoying tactic that i've seen used alot, and is a side-effect of logging off while scrambled. Once the ship disappears, the pod either does not appear atall, or instantly warps. Very nice for those 500+ implant-in-head people. And also ghey. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Quaren	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:24:00 - [71] I have to agree with Hast and most of the other people in here... to answer the guy that said: "what if I need to log because of rl stuff. Then npcs might kill me." noone is saying that you shouldn't automatically warp to a safe spot when you log out. they are just saying that you should increase the timer. Imo 8 min sounds like a good idea. as little as 5 min should be enough in most cases and it doesn't give the enemy time to use probes if you really log out for legit reasons. I have ctded in a few fleet battles and I think that the timer has saved my ship more then once(I still have that damn scorp.... it just doesn't want to die!!) and I still think this is a good idea.
Rising Sin	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:28:00 - [72] Signed. -- "If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right."
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:42:00 - [73] well, I'm not talking about just logging off to save your self from "pirates" or "player killers or "[Insert lame name here]", but I have also gotten the feeling from reading several thread that people feel that logging off to escape the wrath of concord or npc's is also a valid tactic. I feel that the state of mind of some players is wrong. Its fine by me that you like to chain mindless npc's for hours on end or do level four agent missions. But that some people resort to logging off to save themself from a spawn or something else they cant handle is just beyond me. Take it like a man and go down with your ship, amkes the game a whole lot more fun than having god mode on... Since I consider it as god mode and I usually dont cheat in games. Only the rare singleplayer game that I have completed for the 100th time and I want to test out all the fancy guns In multiplayer games on the other hand I frown upon people who cheat, I feel that people who log off is just as bad as those little cs kiddies that run around with aimbots and whatnot. And who is being accused of being pimplefaced fourteenyear olds that usually play fps games?
Demangel	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:48:00 - [74] Edited by: Demangel on 12/04/2005 23:56:48 Signed Bah some people said it better than me... so I'm redoing this. Simply put, the log off issues in EVE is a bad one... Like the scenario mentioned above about insurgents all logging off at once when a fleet comes to deal with them... or even if a fair fight is on it's way. Point is, nothing kills PVP faster than log off tactics like this IMHO. I know some will argue about how some fools will CTD, or have real life things to do, but there has be better ways to deal with this. Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
Takrolimus	Posted - 2005.04.13 00:29:00 - [75] The only ones who could disagree with this are, surprise surprise, semi-literate alts.
Frickm	Posted - 2005.04.13 05:12:00 - [76] I dont think it is always an exploit ... I have been fighting ships which disappear near the point which the ship would surely be destroyed ... but I also have been in fights which later the enemy says my ship disappeared ....I know my ship was in full control and I was logged in the whole time ....I think the Bug Hunters need find out how to make ships disappear ..... it could be a server side bug .... you have to allow for the possible CTD also .... I do know that ships disappear due to server lag .... Aggressively rewarding brave pilots for S.A.S ship kills and stealing loot from them to fund this ....having fun doing it !!!
Myal Terego	Posted - 2005.04.13 08:23:00 - [77] Edited by: Myal Terego on 13/04/2005 08:24:20 Edited by: Myal Terego on 13/04/2005 08:23:36 Fully agree with you Hast. The attitude of the people playing this game has changed so much, that CCP just has to take control over the logging issue. It is hurting the game. If that would mean drawbacks when RL calls, or when CTDing, so be it. Atleast we would have everyone playing by the same set of rules. cheers EDIT spelling [center] http://213.142.66.138/~nervar/myalb.jpg
Chasseur Aveugle	Posted - 2005.04.13 09:48:00 - [78] I agree that loging off in battle is dishonorable and should be stopped, my problem is with legitimate disconnects for somereason while I was doing some level 4 missions with friends my client crashed and my friend told me I just warped away so I think that if your playing you get disconnected you warp to a random place, if your jammed then you obviously cant warp away and thus stuck there or if your destroyed before you can warp. If people log off and immediatly disappear that needs to be stopped. IDK if this is possible but maybe if they log off they freeze the ship for like 30sec-1 min during which time it cant take damage but yuo can still keep the jamming /warp disrupters on while its frozen and if they dont log back on it un freezes and they can take damage and try to wapr away if there not jammed.
Eleska	Posted - 2005.04.13 09:58:00 - [79] Edited by: Eleska on 13/04/2005 10:01:06 Edited by: Eleska on 13/04/2005 09:59:00 The method used to isntantly make your ship disapeer after logging is apperntly not deemed an exploit by CCP... so I heard Lets not wander too far off-topic people we need CCP to address the issue of players logging and their ships dissapering before even the 1min timer is up If you log off after being scrambled there should be no timer!?! At least it should be increased for such situations.. This is destroying PvP!!11ELEVEN
Astruma	Posted - 2005.04.13 09:59:00 - [80] Edited by: Astruma on 13/04/2005 10:01:26 Originally by: Hast some people resort to logging off to save themself from a spawn or something else they cant handle is just beyond me In multiplayer games on the other hand I frown upon people who cheat, I feel that people who log off is just as bad as those little cs kiddies that run around with aimbots and whatnot. And who is being accused of being pimplefaced fourteenyear olds that usually play fps games? I would hazard a guess that it was corporations like yours that introduced this feature to the rest of the community. So Shinra logging off when outnumbered is acceptable? If your call yourself a PvP corporation you should fight to death. What you do is as bad IMO. You get yourself into the situation, accept the consequences, fight your way out or die. Your really have no right complaining when you use equally lame out of game tactics to save whole fleets of ships. Read your own quotes above again.
Malken	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:16:00 - [81] Originally by: Elmek Interesing Shinra started this thread as their pilots use the log off tactic more than most. Mek i know that Hast never uses logoff to escape he fights and tries to take as many as he can with him. Originally by: Graelyn "We're at war with you, and you FIRED on us! I am so telling CONCORD!" Quote: [18:46:36] Weebear > WTS Electric Golf Cart, 1 careful owner. Phone Rome 555 6567
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:25:00 - [82] Originally by: Astruma Edited by: Astruma on 13/04/2005 10:01:26 Originally by: Hast some people resort to logging off to save themself from a spawn or something else they cant handle is just beyond me In multiplayer games on the other hand I frown upon people who cheat, I feel that people who log off is just as bad as those little cs kiddies that run around with aimbots and whatnot. And who is being accused of being pimplefaced fourteenyear olds that usually play fps games? I would hazard a guess that it was corporations like yours that introduced this feature to the rest of the community. So Shinra logging off when outnumbered is acceptable? If your call yourself a PvP corporation you should fight to death. What you do is as bad IMO. You get yourself into the situation, accept the consequences, fight your way out or die. Your really have no right complaining when you use equally lame out of game tactics to save whole fleets of ships. Read your own quotes above again. rofl, that comment is comedy gold. We are not talking about going to a safespot and logging off since we are 5 and you are 50. Thats just common sense! rofl, fight to the death? you are so way out of this topic that you dont even know what I'm talking about. I am talking about logging off while having enemies on their way into your grid or in the same grid as you to save your ship. Not going to a safe to log for the night since its pointless to try and get a fight. Or since we're such a uber pvp corp we should just charge in whenever we feel like, just because we are uber? Its not just our fighting prowess and disiplin that makes us good, but also knowing when to fight, how to pick fights and when not to fight! P.S. get a clue and grow some brass and post with your main. now back on topic
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:26:00 - [83] Originally by: Malken Originally by: Elmek Interesing Shinra started this thread as their pilots use the log off tactic more than most. Mek i know that Hast never uses logoff to escape he fights and tries to take as many as he can with him. I remember that incident
Finix Jaeger	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:30:00 - [84] I really dont see the point in accusing eachother for using the logoff exploit, take that ingame and cream eachother all you want. But the situation should get looked at, I've personally been in the situation where the enemy just simply logged off and disappeared.
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:54:00 - [85] Originally by: Finix Jaeger I really dont see the point in accusing eachother for using the logoff exploit, take that ingame and cream eachother all you want. But the situation should get looked at, I've personally been in the situation where the enemy just simply logged off and disappeared. It gets Tedious(sp?) to watch ship after ship just log and vanish. In the old days it wasnt much of a problem, but it seems to have escalated in the recent months. Some are impatient and log in again after a short while. We usually hang around the neighbourhood or sit at the spot he logged off waiting for him. Then they see we havent left local and they resort to just logging off again. This often come with random abuse in local mind you from them. This then encourages us to use dirty tactics aswell, but I for one do not feel comfortable stretching the game mechanics just to get a kill. I like to play by the rules and win that way. P.S. If someone else wants to accuse me for using dirty tactics please do, but bring proof if you do. I'm sure you'll come up pretty empty handed
Takrolimus	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:21:00 - [86] Originally by: Astruma Edited by: Astruma on 13/04/2005 10:01:26 Originally by: Hast some people resort to logging off to save themself from a spawn or something else they cant handle is just beyond me In multiplayer games on the other hand I frown upon people who cheat, I feel that people who log off is just as bad as those little cs kiddies that run around with aimbots and whatnot. And who is being accused of being pimplefaced fourteenyear olds that usually play fps games? I would hazard a guess that it was corporations like yours that introduced this feature to the rest of the community. So Shinra logging off when outnumbered is acceptable? If your call yourself a PvP corporation you should fight to death. What you do is as bad IMO. You get yourself into the situation, accept the consequences, fight your way out or die. Your really have no right complaining when you use equally lame out of game tactics to save whole fleets of ships. Read your own quotes above again. POST WITH YOUR MAIN OR DON'T POST AT ALL
CEO Pyrex	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:22:00 - [87] I agree with the Shinra guys here, log off ass saving tactics are bad. However let me play devils advocate I know a lot of people (mature players i would call them) who dont want in any shape or form the pvp side of eve. They are usually traders who work hard playing markets, blueprint profs, builders etc. These guys hate the thought that they could be drawn into combat with someone far in advance of their pvp skills and loose lots of isk. Remember these 'empire jockeys' main goal in the game is to earn isk. I can totally see why someone who has perhaps been playing the game for a while, loads of implants, top ship etc would rather not put it at risk to some punk with a ego. Thats why this type of player is found in empire. But.... Low sec space and alliances have made a lot of people eye the horizon and see how big veld is out in 0.0. Thyre not ready for the large population of 0.0 people who are quite frankly dangerous to be even in the same system as. They run, do anything to not loose all that hard work getting the stuff. imagine getting a caldari navy raven, spending months getting all the points and then BAM you got it, you adore it etc. Then you foolishly go to a 0.4 without checking somthing blah blah etc, and bang its gone. hmm i can see that i would be putting my foot through my computer if that happened. Ok advocate over My thought on it is: If i catch you logging off when i got you 'on the cutting board' i will shame you to your corp, the community and everyone i can find....grrr i run fraps and will shame you. Perhaps the solution is to remove implants? make clones free? make ship loss not too bad? Module insurance? that way people are more likly to say RAHHHHHH IM GONNA GO DOWN AND TAKE YOU ALL WITH ME YAARRRR...... the thought of 50 strong fleets fighting until the last man makes me happy
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:31:00 - [88] Originally by: CEO Pyrex imagine getting a caldari navy raven, spending months getting all the points and then BAM you got it, you adore it etc. Then you foolishly go to a 0.4 without checking somthing blah blah etc, and bang its gone. hmm i can see that i would be putting my foot through my computer if that happened. I concur, but I would like to add. Whats the point of having the fanciest ship in the game just too look at it? I have friends who have flied and lost faction ships and all he said was "Dont worry, I allready been offered one at a good price" This is the attitude I like to see. Whats the point of the game if you have as much isk as you can possibly get, but you dont risk it at all? Be it fighting or risky investments that you either make twice of what you have or loose everything. I know if I went bankrupt now, I would just get up again and try harder. Point is in my opinion, if the game doesent have risk it looses its novelty value fast, thats why I love eve, you can actually loose something.
CEO Pyrex	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:39:00 - [89] absolutly...agree 100% risk is makes it fun, the pounding of my heart when i warped into the middle of a 50 strong enemy fleet in my covert ops and head butted an apoc. cloak failed and whoops! i was being targeted by everyone. warped away uber fast and was amazed to see i made it.....to the stargate.....you can see where im going with this....into the middle of a 25-40 strong fleet and once again was being shot at big time. Long story short people... my heart was racing like a fiddlers elbow and i felt alive! yeah i coulda died and such but it was intense and exhilerating. thats why we play games isnt it? There will always be isk available some how, and no alliance or corp can ever rule the galaxy so space is open, get out there and enjoy it, loose your implants, get used to dying and you will see a whole new game ahead of you. Respect to shinra for this post CEO Pyrex Overload of the blutack
xXSpinelessXx	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:47:00 - [90] Originally by: DukDodgerz go look to a fps for your griefing. Leave the log off as it is, let the whiners whine. CCP could listen to this crying and whining, and let loose a whole new rush of griefing and ganking by those wanting to do so. BTW, don't whine about what your team does... Lets take this out of game for a moment: When you wake up in the morning before work you put on pants right? I mean you wouldnt go to work without your pants would you? If you owned a gun would you think its a good idea to leave it loaded and hide it under your 2yr old childs pillow? What am I getting at? I will tell you. COMMON SENSE! If you dont enjoy pvp or at anytime dont wish to pvp then stay out of areas you would be subjected to it. That is what those areas offer players. The entire security rating system is based around player and npc confict. There is heaps of space waiting for those who dont want to pvp. The log out exploit is as clear as day. Its not a feature. Its not designed to be used so people can go to 0.0 space and avoid ever being killed. When you use it you are exploiting in every aspect of the word. Now if the Eve staff chooses to clamp down on this in the future who knows. Every game has its un-policed exploit. Just look at Shadowbane. People exploit terrain to advance in the game all over the place. Everyone does it. Does the staff do anything to stop it? No. Atm this log exploit is Eve's un-policed exploit. The part that troubles me most is the fact that it involves PVP conflict. This is the biggest un-policed PVP exploit sense AC1. No game company has let this type of exploit go unpunished sense AC1

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