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Selim	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:18:00 - [31] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Same with any basic frig. Amarr might have 100 armor more, but whoopdiedoo. Who gives a **. Thats not even a single volley from a single gun. It's useless, and does not make up for additional speed. Not to mention you can only dream about outrunning any type of missile. what the hell ever... I was just making a point on why the caldari one shouldnt have more missiles. Was pointing out how the manticore should be different but not overpowered. (well actually underpowered, but overpowered compared to the others). Anyway additional defenses also means higher capacitor, so the amarr one could be the best at fending off the attacks of an interceptor long enough for a friendly one to kill it. Bombers should be awesome damage dealers that make people ** their pants if they dont have enough frigate coverage. And if bombers rocked it would make destroyers more useful!
Selim	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Nanus Parkite Ye gods has no one bothered to read the descriptions. "Advanced techniques in spatial distortion technology enable them to potentially fly faster when cloaked than when uncloaked" Wake up and smell the coffee Dude, thats like saying that the ibis is awesome because it has a cool optimal range bonus, and that all the people saying the ibis suck are wrong and dont notice the bonus.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:54:00 - [33] ôYe gods has no one bothered to read the descriptions. "Advanced techniques in spatial distortion technology enable them to potentially fly faster when cloaked than when uncloaked" Wake up and smell the coffee ô Only problem is 99% of pilots will find the ship is slower cloaked then uncloaked. Only the few people with level 5 Covert Ops will be faster cloaked. Most people stopped at level 3 to 4. I wonder how many will now train up to levle5? _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:03:00 - [34] Oh i agree they all need 4 launchers. They also need to use Sieges. I'm just pointing out that with frigates, having more armor is not atall an issue. It makes you last a whooping extra second, yipee! Anyway, how i envision Stealth Bombers: 5 highslots 4 launcher slots (fitted with Siege Launchers) 2-3 medslots, used for EW (Dampeners, jammers) 2-3 lowslots for Overdrives / Cap relays (Possibly an Armor Rep, but not enough grid to online it...so only usefull for repairing after battle.) The last highslot could be a Target Painter, Cloaking Device or Stealth module thingie. Oh and remove the Sensor recalibration. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Kaylona Tso	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:05:00 - [35] Originally by: BIRDofPREY I've never known CCP to listen to anyone but themselves. So I think that this ship is going to stay nerfed for a very long time. They took my advice and redid frigate/cruisers in the ewar changes... and pretty much followed what I said for celestis to the T. You just can't go around saying, this sucks that sucks this game sucks this ship sucks etc etc... cause what your saying is that the hard work they do every day sucks. You like people saying you suck at work? Get over it stealth's will be good when CCP sees what they need to do with them and I certaintly am not going to complain about a new figate that can launch cruise missiles even if you haters deem it MOOT. -----
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:13:00 - [36] Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 14/04/2005 20:13:59 Why did the Manticore get 3 launchers and the best bonuses? I really love that the Nemesis gets a VERY useful 5% increase in small hybrid damage (on a bomber! woohoo!) while the Manticore gets a bonus that lets it fit its extra siege launcher easier (5% less grid on top of the bonus it ALREADY gets). Oh, and having the damage bonus on the rank-6 covert ops skill instead of the rank-2, already-maxed frigate skill is just so awesome that I don't know how to discribe it. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Grut	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:40:00 - [37] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Oh i agree they all need 4 launchers. They also need to use Sieges. I'm just pointing out that with frigates, having more armor is not atall an issue. It makes you last a whooping extra second, yipee! Anyway, how i envision Stealth Bombers: 5 highslots 4 launcher slots (fitted with Siege Launchers) 2-3 medslots, used for EW (Dampeners, jammers) 2-3 lowslots for Overdrives / Cap relays (Possibly an Armor Rep, but not enough grid to online it...so only usefull for repairing after battle.) The last highslot could be a Target Painter, Cloaking Device or Stealth module thingie. Oh and remove the Sensor recalibration. now that would work and work well Mostly harmless
Urza Rast	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:59:00 - [38] Ok I might need some help here understanding where I went wrong. The Caldari stealth bomber gets the normal 19.65% and the additional 5% for powergrid reduction on cruise missile launchers per level. 19.65 + 5 = 24.65 * 5 = 123.25 % so where did I go wrong I don't see a use for this skill at that % unless they will be getting extra powergrid out of this???? Anyone plz tell me where I messed up. Also if anyone remembers on the market late last summer I believe it was under mines or something there were space bombs that were on the market??? At that point I remember rumors about bombers that would be able to use them when they came out. Anyone want to comment on why they did not give these stealth bombers the space bombs that were on the market. This seems to be another ship like the mining barge where the costs do not out way the benefits. Let me know what you think.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.04.14 21:13:00 - [39] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 14/04/2005 21:13:28 crap, double post -Kyoko Sakoda Omerta Syndicate <Oveur> cause there is nothing as boring as seeing your ship jumping 50 systems <Oveur> I can like, have sex 150 times during that period
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.04.14 21:13:00 - [40] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 14/04/2005 21:13:53 Manticore: Max vel. = 195. Cloaked w/ Improved : 195 * 25% = 48.75 Multiplied by bonus w/ covert ops IV: 48.75 * 100% = 97.5 Unless something iffy is done with the math, like that the percentages are added first (-75%+100% = 25% multiplied by 195), I don't understand how these are faster when cloaked. I think they'll have their uses, but not with the current statistics. -Kyoko Sakoda Omerta Syndicate <Oveur> cause there is nothing as boring as seeing your ship jumping 50 systems <Oveur> I can like, have sex 150 times during that period
Selim	Posted - 2005.04.15 05:45:00 - [41] Originally by: RollinDutchMasters Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 14/04/2005 20:13:59 Why did the Manticore get 3 launchers and the best bonuses? I really love that the Nemesis gets a VERY useful 5% increase in small hybrid damage (on a bomber! woohoo!) while the Manticore gets a bonus that lets it fit its extra siege launcher easier (5% less grid on top of the bonus it ALREADY gets). Oh, and having the damage bonus on the rank-6 covert ops skill instead of the rank-2, already-maxed frigate skill is just so awesome that I don't know how to discribe it. A-men. You only need what, 5 more powergrid to fit 3 cruise on a manticore than 2 on all the others? And gun bonuses on bombers for the other 3? lol. Manticore should not have more missiles, nor should it have that second powergrid bonus.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.04.15 05:56:00 - [42] Quote: 10% reduction in Small Energy Weapon capacitor use per level Wow yeah, what an awesome bonus. I was afraid 2 small guns would really drain my cap Having my first real look at bombers and yeah, caldari get the best. Overall, they all look like a bunch of suck. Turrets on bombers ________________________________________________________
Phades	Posted - 2005.04.15 06:19:00 - [43] Edited by: Phades on 15/04/2005 06:19:30 Originally by: RollinDutchMasters Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 14/04/2005 20:13:59 Oh, and having the damage bonus on the rank-6 covert ops skill instead of the rank-2, already-maxed frigate skill is just so awesome that I don't know how to discribe it. That is kind of like comparing the crusader to the retribution on where the damage bonus lies, even though they are different ship classes. Anyhow, i think these ships were pre-nerfed prior to the missile rebalancing that will eventually take place. I am of the wait and see what happens opinion following that patch, then think about these ships again. Right now they seem rather broken to be honest, probably as broken, if not worse than the logistics ships.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.04.15 07:06:00 - [44] ôManticore should not have more missiles, nor should it have that second powergrid bonus.ö Why not? Balance does not mean every ship has to be the same with the same slots that would be boring. Each ship should favour the type of build that its corp and race does giving each ship a clear difference between each other. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Selim	Posted - 2005.04.15 07:09:00 - [45] Edited by: Selim on 15/04/2005 07:09:47 Originally by: Pottsey ôManticore should not have more missiles, nor should it have that second powergrid bonus.ö Why not? Balance does not mean every ship has to be the same with the same slots that would be boring. Each ship should favour the type of build that its corp and race does giving each ship a clear difference between each other. Because for a ship class that is made for missiles, 3 missiles is clearly better than 2 no matter what is given in return? And the powergrid bonus isnt fair since the caldari one fits 3 with only slightly more pog than it takes to fit 2 on the others, thus essentially negating the fact that the manticore has the lowest powergrid.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.04.15 07:27:00 - [46] "Because for a ship class that is made for missiles, 3 missiles is clearly better than 2 no matter what is given in return?" ThatÆs explained by only the corp that specialises in missiles has the skills to fit 3 cruse launchers onto a frigate while the none missile corps who donÆt know much about missiles struggle to fit 2. That makes sense and is even how real life work. Look at real life corps making bombers to sell to the military and win a contract. Two companies donÆt make the bombers carry the same amount of bombs. Each company does what they specialise in. 1 plane might only drop bombs IE the Caldari ship. Another plane might drop bombs and have ok anti air defence IE the Gallant ship. Hopefully the same will happen with drone ships when they come out the Gallente ship has the best drone options while Caldari have more missiles and shield cap. If we did what you say all the ships would be boring and the same as each other. Different races should not be the same. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Dexter Rast	Posted - 2005.04.15 07:32:00 - [47] funny thing i also noticed, the hound actually has a bonus for PROJECTILES, and no missile related bonus like its tech1 conterpart the Breacher, c`mon CCP get a grip ---------------------------------------------
Meridius	Posted - 2005.04.15 07:41:00 - [48] Edited by: Meridius on 15/04/2005 07:41:16 Doing some numbers... With covert ops V (a rank 6 skill) A purifier salvo can't even kill a inty in one volley. It's rof will be 16.8sec with cruise arbs so it would be long dead before ever firing that 2nd salvo. It does a grand total of 44.64DPS through it's launchers. It does 750 damage a volley, a Wolf with a 15x dmg mod on 280 IIs does 660 damage a volley with a much lower ROF, much lighter ship, way more HP, way better resists, smaller signature radius, better targeting speed....ect ect. I must be missing something right? Why the hell would anyone get in one of these ________________________________________________________
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.15 07:58:00 - [49] Has anyone here flown the bombers yet? What no? Then stfu till you test it! Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.04.15 09:10:00 - [50] Obviously the people who say omgwtf you havent flown it yet nub... are incapable of advanced planning and tactics. Those of us who are realise that the ships are largely useless.
Dark Silver	Posted - 2005.04.15 09:19:00 - [51] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 14/04/2005 21:13:53 Manticore: Max vel. = 195. Cloaked w/ Improved : 195 * 25% = 48.75 Multiplied by bonus w/ covert ops IV: 48.75 * 100% = 97.5 Unless something iffy is done with the math, like that the percentages are added first (-75%+100% = 25% multiplied by 195), I don't understand how these are faster when cloaked. I think they'll have their uses, but not with the current statistics. Ok... i don't think your maths quite go to well, and you are missing your navigation bonus +100% velocity for lv 4 cov-ops -75% velocity for improved cloak II = +25% velocity whilst cloaked this means you do 1951.25=243.75 OR 195+25%=243.75 OR 195/100125=243.75 add a navigation skill of level 4 (+20% velocity) and you get 195*1.45=282.75
MachZERO	Posted - 2005.04.15 16:51:00 - [52] Edited by: MachZERO on 15/04/2005 17:08:50 Take alot of speculation and rumors along with extreme over reaction and you have.... THIS THREAD! Maybe you all missed out on the times when frigates could fire cruise missiles and how very lethal they were in pvp. (Pre march 2004) There are players out there that will find a niche for these ships and use them to very lethal effect. Until then, why complain about something you've not even used yet? And you can't really "pre-plan" for what tactics will and will not work for or against a particular ship. You can only "speculate" untill you have flown in it or against it. All you have to do is necro the forum a bit and look back a little more than a year ago and read all the complaints about how the interceptor was going to suck and it wouldn't last more than 2 seconds in pvp, blah, blah, blah... Then those same ppl would praise the inty just months later and say how much it rocked and they wouldn't trade it for anything, etc... Then it was on to how bad the assault ships would suck.. they were too slow... and on and on... In the end... The pilot makes the ship.. The ship never makes the pilot.. Someone out there will find a use for the bomber regardless of how much anyone on this thread hates it. --------------------------------------------- "Rang Rang" Something no one wants in eve. Pray that it never comes. They are locusts... You've been warned... ------------------------------------
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.15 17:06:00 - [53] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 15/04/2005 17:14:17 Originally by: Altai Saker Obviously the people who say omgwtf you havent flown it yet nub... are incapable of advanced planning and tactics. Those of us who are realise that the ships are largely useless. wtf is a nub? Like a missing arm nub? Figures someone from F-E would say that. Anyways, the ship is based around a hard hitting weapon for a frigate. It is always based around a cloaking device II. Not every ship in the game is geared for all "Roles" hence they have have set "Roles". You know how much of a advantage a cloaking device is in pvp. Pvp is all about suprize. No matter what ship you're in, you can overcome great aspects of a larger ship. Just look at the "Covert OP" frigs for example. I can't count the number of "Buzzards" and "Cheetahs" that put down cruisers, frigates and ect with just 2 weapons and a cloaking device. Why? because it's tactical. You know how easy it is to put down a Buzzard and Cheetah in the same aspects and events you guys are judging the new bombers on? Cept you can't that easy, because they have the cloaking ability. This is why, everyone should stop assuming utter bull**** before they get a chance to fly something with cloaking abilities as one of there main defense. These bombers don't have rocket launchers, std launcher, small gunnery with a EW platform. These ships have cruiser launchers that do 350+ with bonus damage to victims. On top of that, they cloak. How can a victim orbit you, if you get the jump on him first. People wouldn't try to pvp in covert op ships if it was that much of a disadvantage. Seen to many good pilots in covert ops who overcome every frigate just due to the fact. They get first attack... First Attack ++++++ Example: Battleship flies in to a area... Engages another enemy Battleship... Bombers move into flanking position who are cloaked. BOOOM Out of nowhere 2-4 bombers attack that enemy battleship. Stun factor is on... Example: F-E the Pirate is in 0.3 hunting some rats in his Thorax. I'm in the belt already lurking. He engages in battle... Uncloak, lock.. Boooom! Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
Bagdh Dearg	Posted - 2005.04.15 17:28:00 - [54] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 15/04/2005 17:14:17 Originally by: Altai Saker Obviously the people who say omgwtf you havent flown it yet nub... are incapable of advanced planning and tactics. Those of us who are realise that the ships are largely useless. wtf is a nub? Like a missing arm nub? Figures someone from F-E would say that. Anyways, the ship is based around a hard hitting weapon for a frigate. It is always based around a cloaking device II. Not every ship in the game is geared for all "Roles" hence they have have set "Roles". You know how much of a advantage a cloaking device is in pvp. Pvp is all about suprize. No matter what ship you're in, you can overcome great aspects of a larger ship. Just look at the "Covert OP" frigs for example. I can't count the number of "Buzzards" and "Cheetahs" that put down cruisers, frigates and ect with just 2 weapons and a cloaking device. Why? because it's tactical. You know how easy it is to put down a Buzzard and Cheetah in the same aspects and events you guys are judging the new bombers on? Cept you can't that easy, because they have the cloaking ability. This is why, everyone should stop assuming utter bull** before they get a chance to fly something with cloaking abilities as one of there main defense. These bombers don't have rocket launchers, std launcher, small gunnery with a EW platform. These ships have cruiser launchers that do 350+ with bonus damage to victims. On top of that, they cloak. How can a victim orbit you, if you get the jump on him first. People wouldn't try to pvp in covert op ships if it was that much of a disadvantage. Seen to many good pilots in covert ops who overcome every frigate just due to the fact. They get first attack... First Attack ++++++ Example: Battleship flies in to a area... Engages another enemy Battleship... Bombers move into flanking position who are cloaked. BOOOM Out of nowhere 2-4 bombers attack that enemy battleship. Stun factor is on... Example: F-E the Pirate is in 0.3 hunting some rats in his Thorax. I'm in the belt already lurking. He engages in battle... Uncloak, lock.. Boooom! Im with this guy,I'll really have to fly the ships before I pass any judgement on capabilities. Though a little love never goes astray. _______________________________________________ An tÚ nach bhfuil lßidir nÝ folßir d¾ bheith glic** -He who is not strong must be crafty
Saint Jack	Posted - 2005.04.15 17:49:00 - [55] Your tactic is a viable one But it is my opinion that a ferox with a cloak does a much better job than the present stats allow for any of the stealth bombers. Since you can not warp while cloaked, the the stealth is pretty much reduced to camping. A ferox with 5 heavy missile launchers can deliver more damage than a couple of cruise missles and much faster. Further more, the delay during realignment and locking time, which is substantial, doesn't leave much room for surprise. From the estimated price of 40 million plus and the fragility of the ship, this makes the ferox a better deal in the long run.
Stufico	Posted - 2005.04.15 17:54:00 - [56] I think the stealth bombers will be a great addition to EVE. Think about it, get a group of roaming frigs, put some maulus's, inty's, griffin's, AF's, and bombers and go gank ****. Since frigs have a bonus to EW, use a nice balance of EW, tackling, and lots of damage and a group of these could easily take on a couple bs's/cruisers. Just use cloak the heavy damage dealers i.e. bombers and wait till it is the time to use them. I think they are situational and are ment to be used in conjunction with other forces.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.15 18:23:00 - [57] Originally by: MachZERO Take alot of speculation and rumors along with extreme over reaction and you have.... THIS THREAD! Maybe you all missed out on the times when frigates could fire cruise missiles and how very lethal they were in pvp. (Pre march 2004) Yes lethal for a ship that cost 500k Isk of which 90% you get back from insurance When you get half to 2/3's the firepower for 20million Isk (and maybe 10% back), it doesnt look so good. I doubt people are going to suicide bombing haulers in Yulai with stealth bombers much. Originally by: MachZERO There are players out there that will find a niche for these ships and use them to very lethal effect. Until then, why complain about something you've not even used yet? What is different between a stealth bomber and a frig with a cloak? Oh sorry I forgot that at high levels of covert ops the stealth bomber will be slightly faster cloaked (but will never match a covert ops ship at covert ops I). Cruise frigates rocked because they where cheap and nearly everyone could fly one, so you could get a big gang together. Stealth bombers on the other hand need lots of training, and don't even have a decent cloaking bonus. Improved cloaks dont let you lock for over 10 seconds after uncloaking, and they nerf your scan res by 40%. And bombers (especially the manticore) have ****ty base scan res. I use Improved cloaks in PVP, but mainly on heavily tanked cruisers, so that I actually live through the period where I can't lock. A frig like the stealth bombers is not going to be able to last that long, against any half competent foe. Yes they have a role. But its one that can already be done better and cheaper by other ships. However I am still getting a manticore because I have wanted a T2 kessie for ages, and am hopeful that CCP will boost them. --------------------------------------------------
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.15 18:26:00 - [58] Originally by: Stufico I think the stealth bombers will be a great addition to EVE. Think about it, get a group of roaming frigs, put some maulus's, inty's, griffin's, AF's, and bombers and go gank ***. Since frigs have a bonus to EW, use a nice balance of EW, tackling, and lots of damage and a group of these could easily take on a couple bs's/cruisers. Just use cloak the heavy damage dealers i.e. bombers and wait till it is the time to use them. I think they are situational and are ment to be used in conjunction with other forces. Are you suffering from a brain injury? Bombers aren't* heavy damage dealers. They do high volley damage, but have ****ty damage over time, because of cruise launchers rate of fire. You can do what you describe now by just cloaking assaults which are heavy damage dealers. --------------------------------------------------
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.04.15 18:47:00 - [59] You'd actually do better still by using cloaked missile frigates. Or, better yet, using MWD missile frigates in swarms. Sure a bunch of them will die in every attack, though more likely they can use warp-in warp-out tactics to shed missiles and keep most of them alive against a single BS. A Breacher rush would be fun. Harry Voyager
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.04.15 19:05:00 - [60] Edited by: Sangxianc on 15/04/2005 19:10:12 I'm currently training Electronics Upgrades 5 simply because the Nemesis oozes cool. AND the Helios is bright green. It's like a really awesome 2 for 1 package for people who pick ships based on their looks. I'm sure we'll come up with a role for Bombers (I have one or two in mind at current but I don't know if they'll work or not). - Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

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