Well, The question is appeared.
Do we need a reinfored Heavy Assault Ship? I think I needn't. It's no help to EVE system.
Do we need a Recon Ship or a Command Ship like that? Maybe need, but why not create a new Recon Ship or Command

tech 3 do all off the above, at 3 times the price of any of them. you pay for it if you loose them (sp loss....:( )

im not sure how much they are really used. the cost is very high and im not sure it warrants the increase in price over effectiveness in most areas of space.

i like em :)

They need to be lowered so that they arnt better than a specialised ship that is designed entirely with that role in mind.

They are nice, and teh fact you can go out and do great things in them is superb, tehy are expensive and rightly so, but they shouldnt boost better than a CS, they shoudlnt recon better than a recon, they shouldnt tank better than a battleship with teh sig of a cruiser.. They need changing so that they stay great and worth teh price, BUT dont make other ships irrelevant. The swiss army knife after all can do a great many things, but it doesnt do them better than tools designed exactly for that role.

Tech 3 is awesome

Tech 3 is awesome

Tech 3 is awesome

too awesome to the detriment of every other ship which is unfortunate because they have great potential to add something unique to the game of being a true multi-purpose ship.
Hopefully the re-balance will do this they should be a support ship at its heart not some uber battleship in a cruiser disguise.

However i feel in order for this to happen and still remain viable the cost of the ship must be brought in line with T2 cruisers or thereabout.

Have you SEEN nullsec fleet compositions? They fly swarms of faction fit Tengus like they were tech 1 frigates.

Tech 3 ships are just as vulnerable to attack and destruction as any other class of hull in the game.

Sure, they have an edge as they're far more versatile in terms of customization, but in the same respect you take far more risk flying them due to their cost and the fact you lose skill points when you get asploded.

Tech 3 is awesome

wow considering your CCP and CCP say balancing ships isn't based on cost....

blurf

My job isn't to balance ships, so that's my personal opinion after having been a PvPer for best part of 10 years

My job isn't to balance ships, so that's my personal opinion after having been a PvPer for best part of 10 years

ccp fozzie seems to have concluded that it's heavy missiles that are overpowered.

T3s are awesome.
Generally people who complain about them come in 2 varieties:

1. people who have no clue how to fit them
2. people who can't afford them

it comes down to a similar argument as 'titans are overpowered, they're so much better than dreads!!'

wow considering your CCP and CCP say balancing ships isn't based on cost....

They do, but that is a scaling thing coupled with diminishing returns. The higher you go up the power ladder, the less power additional ISK buys you.

It's not a no-questions-asked-design-religion, or every ship in EVE would cost the same and they could just throw out faction ships, since they are all about raw power increase at extra cost.

Anyway, you are hinting at things they mostly talk about when we discuss multi-billion ISK supercaps. When we are talking sub-caps, risk vs. reward is just as significant.

too awesome to the detriment of every other ship which is unfortunate because they have great potential to add something unique to the game of being a true multi-purpose ship.
Hopefully the re-balance will do this they should be a support ship at its heart not some uber battleship in a cruiser disguise.

However i feel in order for this to happen and still remain viable the cost of the ship must be brought in line with T2 cruisers or thereabout.

Versatility, let me repeat it to you: VERSATILITY

Negative points:
Command sub ->quite ridiculous this sub does not limit fittings and slots so they are not better than Command ships and still profit from some ridiculous sign radius still making them IMPROBABLE when you put the money for.

From expensive to extremely expensive if you want to get the best out of those

SP loss

Extra SP training

For the last part "uber battleship in a cruiser desguise" you clearly haven't flown battleships these days. Show me the T2 fitted Tengu with over 1K dps hands down and please explain me the mechanics and sign radius influence on applied dps.

You have about 1h and I want at least 10 pages. If you're good you'll get cookies.

Versatility, let me repeat it to you: VERSATILITY

Negative points:
Command sub ->quite ridiculous this sub does not limit fittings and slots so they are not better than Command ships and still profit from some ridiculous sign radius still making them IMPROBABLE when you put the money for.

From expensive to extremely expensive if you want to get the best out of those

SP loss

Extra SP training

For the last part "uber battleship in a cruiser desguise" you clearly haven't flown battleships these days. Show me the T2 fitted Tengu with over 1K dps hands down and please explain me the mechanics and sign radius influence on applied dps.

You have about 1h and I want at least 10 pages. If you're good you'll get cookies.

Because a battleship can totally apply full "1000" DPS on almost any ship and zip around at a couple of km/s with a tiny sig and a +80km range.


Most complaints I have seen about tech 3's is that killing them is bloody hard and that one of the best ways to kill another tech 3 is by using another tech 3.

I'm glad Falcon isn't going to balance T3 ships because that statement doesn't seem to reflect 10 years of experience with pvp...

As soon as you log in to Eve Online, you engage in the mythical "Pee Vee Pee" that everyone so desperately seeks, so calling yourself a "PvPer" is entirely redundant and inherently a part of being a player in this game.

What a ridiculous notion.

You're not automatically a "PvPer" if you undock. Likewise you can easily be in the game without being a "PvP" player. Not being a PvP player does not = unable to have players kill you.

In real life I'm not a mugger, but someone can still mug me (orami?)

Because a battleship can totally apply full "1000" DPS on almost any ship and zip around at a couple of km/s with a tiny sig and a +80km range.

Most complaints I have seen about tech 3's is that killing them is bloody hard and that one of the best ways to kill another tech 3 is by using another tech 3.

no i'm not talking about caps at all CCP have said that ship balancing isn't based on isk at all

Tech 3 is awesome

Tech 3 is awesome

Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house.

My job isn't to balance ships.

Personally I'm all for T3, and I'm all for more T3 in various classes of ships, not just cruisers. I'd love to see frigates, battleships and battle cruisers too, but they'd need to fill a useful niche that isn't already catered for.

I'd also love to see Tech 3 industrials with modular cargo holds too, so you could choose what size hauler you wanted by adding compartments, and could even have unscannable smuggling compartments, and specific compartments for hauling assembled ships.

In EVE, now you can produce 240+ types of ship. The number does not including present and award ships. If the number continuously increases, I feel terrible. It's too complicated.

Let's be honest here - for 3x the price of a specialised ship they can bloody well do what they want. Tech 3s freshened up PVP by bringing power in a tiny package! Even a battleship will think twice before going mono a mono with a tech 3. Why shouldn't they be better than their T2 counterparts? "Oh specialisation > Generalisation" but, let's face it, apart from maybe swapping to a dictor-nullified fit occasionally, my proteus doesn't change. It'd still be cheaper to buy multiple specialised ships than have one generalised one and have subsystems and fits for all roles, and the fact that rigs can't be swapped out also adds to this. T3 should be > T2, much as T2 already is > T1.

Tech 3 is awesome

Then its lucky for me it isn't your job
but you do accept T3's are OP in nearly every way especially its amazing resists that only belong on CS?

OP compared to what? All ships have a counter in eve.

Do you honestly think T3 ships shouldn't have the edge, in some way, over t1 and t2 but still cost around a billion?

Most complaints I have seen about tech 3's is that killing them is bloody hard and that one of the best ways to kill another tech 3 is by using another tech 3.

Just highlighting those parts, since your reading comprehension seems to be slightly malfunctioning and it made you think he said something completely different to what he actually said.

You're welcome.

I'd also love to see Tech 3 industrials with modular cargo holds too, so you could choose what size hauler you wanted by adding compartments, and could even have unscannable smuggling compartments, and specific compartments for hauling assembled ships.

That sounds awesome... Could this be something currently in development??

[quote=Rek Seven][quote=CCP Falcon]
Until CCP shows me they can actually make T3 cruisers balanced (as in they're all viable in their own way while not stomping T2s into the ground) I'm very much against any new type of T3s.

Tech 3's are too good at too many things, they make T2 cruisers almost pointless.

Tech 3 should be jack of all trades, but master of none.

Tech 2 should be specialized into specific roles and be the best at performing those roles.

To me, arguing about the cost of T3 and T2 in the current state and using that as a reason for gap is pointless, as the current price of the ships reflects the ships current performance. If you were to boost Tech 2 the market would soon start to reflect those changes and the prices of those ships would go up.

Tech 3's are too good at too many things, they make T2 cruisers almost pointless.

Tech 3 should be jack of all trades, but master of none.

Tbh there's some good discussion going on here, and some valid points raised.

(Including the fact it would be a bad idea for me to balance ships, because the Megathron would be horridly overpowered, able to fit 600 neutron blaster cannons, and to hell with everything else )

The fact of the matter is that you can argue the point that a lot of hulls are overpowered in EVE. Sometimes you just find that sweet spot, with an awesome fitting and it makes a hull feel imbalanced.

For example, for a long time back in the day the Domi was overpowered as hell, but it wasn't due to the ship, it was due to the combination of NOS + ECM, then more recently we've had a FOTM (more like FOTY) with the Hurricane, because it's very versatile, and now the Tornado, because of the same fundamental benefits to the hull.

I think the main problem right now lies not with the T3 hulls or subsystems themselves, but what people can fit to them and the way some modules work. I suppose the interaction of certain subsystems with eachother could be looked into as well too.

T3 itself doesn't seem to bad to me personally, but when you combine that with, just for example, gang links that work off grid and a covert ops subsystem, plus the ability to make it nigh on unprobeable by screwing with sensor strength, it makes for a really off balance fitting, not due to the hull itself, but due to what can be fitted to the hull with a certain arrangement of subsystems.

Personally I'm all for T3, and I'm all for more T3 in various classes of ships, not just cruisers. I'd love to see frigates, battleships and battle cruisers too, but they'd need to fill a useful niche that isn't already catered for.

I'd also love to see Tech 3 industrials with modular cargo holds too, so you could choose what size hauler you wanted by adding compartments, and could even have unscannable smuggling compartments, and specific compartments for hauling assembled ships.

There are so many potential options for T3, and so many things we could do with them, but then again, this whole post is just my personal opinion and in no way a reflection of what might be in the pipeline, just to be clear.

That sounds awesome... Could this be something currently in development??

Tech 3's are too good at too many things, they make T2 cruisers almost pointless.

Tech 3 should be jack of all trades, but master of none.

Tech 2 should be specialized into specific roles and be the best at performing those roles.

To me, arguing about the cost of T3 and T2 in the current state and using that as a reason for gap is pointless, as the current price of the ships reflects the ships current performance. If you were to boost Tech 2 the market would soon start to reflect those changes and the prices of those ships would go up.

My job isn't to balance ships, so that's my personal opinion after having been a PvPer for best part of 10 years

How about this.
If you have a "personal opinion" you want to express, you do it with one of your chars that does not start with "CCP".
Posting in so many threads with your CCP Falcon char is wrong.

At best, it is annoying to jump to a dev comment only to find some throwaway one line comment by you.
At worst, it can be extremely misleading since many people who read a post by anyone with a CCP moniker believe that CCP employee is expressing an official CCP response, not "their personal opinion".

So stop doing it, and use one of your regular chars when you want to comment in a thread, unless you are stating a sanctioned CCP response on an issue.

How about this.
If you have a "personal opinion" you want to express, you do it with one of your chars that does not start with "CCP".
Posting in so many threads with your CCP Falcon char is wrong.

At best, it is annoying to jump to a dev comment only to find some throwaway one line comment by you.
At worst, it can be extremely misleading since many people who read a post by anyone with a CCP moniker believe that CCP employee is expressing an official CCP response, not "their personal opinion".

So stop doing it, and use one of your regular chars when you want to comment in a thread, unless you are stating a sanctioned CCP response on an issue.

CCP Falcon says things that are right and proper rebutting dinsdale pirahna.

Sorry Dinsdale, I think you forgot that Falcons in the wild are Pirahnas' natural counter. #natureatwork #becauseoffalcon

I don't get the reasoning behind most of this nerf T3s sentiment. T3s cost more, people who own them are more inclined to put better mods on them. Just the fact that it is T3 means > T2. You are risking more too, iskwise, plus the desire of other people to get that shiny ship on their killboard.

If this line of reasoning is pursued then everyone will be flying T1s because now that T3s have been nerfed to be similiar to T2s we still have a problem, T2s are too much better than T1s............and so on

There may be some balancing issues with them. I am not sure that they were meant to fit BS afterburners but overall I think they are working as intended.

ok remove isk from the equation .. do you think that T3's stomp on the majority of T2 ships in the game?

Incorrect.

you're automatically a "PVPer" the moment you log in in eve, because everything in eve is about competition between players, therefore every single activity in game is PVP, be it at the undock or while you're trading in your CQ's.

How about this.
If you have a "personal opinion" you want to express, you do it with one of your chars that does not start with "CCP".
Posting in so many threads with your CCP Falcon char is wrong.

At best, it is annoying to jump to a dev comment only to find some throwaway one line comment by you.
At worst, it can be extremely misleading since many people who read a post by anyone with a CCP moniker believe that CCP employee is expressing an official CCP response, not "their personal opinion".

So stop doing it, and use one of your regular chars when you want to comment in a thread, unless you are stating a sanctioned CCP response on an issue.

I love it when people are like "Please excuse my bad English, it's not my native language" and then they go and post better than 99% of the people who visit these forums.

I think a bit of balance tweaking is needed (especially where the Loki is concerned), but all in all the T3's are awesome.

Hey Dinsdale: December is nearly here.

The clock is ticking until you face Retribution for your terrible, terrible posting in the form of a bounty.

Are you looking forward to looking over your shoulder all the time?

Erebus as Fleet command with Level 5 skills, including Titan 5. Thats 7.5% more armor per level of Gallente Titan. So in total, the titan gives out 37.5% More armor. Throw in T3 6 Link Tech 3 booster, and oh my god, you're stats go up the yingyang. I've seen Abaddons, Zealots get up to 200k eHP or higher, and thats with gank/buffer fits.

Yup.
You take the coward's way out.

You don't have the guts, or maybe the skills, to go after me now, so you need to enlist every griefer in the game on Dec 4th.
I am looking foward to undocking in a Proteus with a half mill in buffer and then gathering the griefer tears in a bucket.

Yup.
You take the coward's way out.

You don't have the guts, or maybe the skills, to go after me now, so you need to enlist every griefer in the game on Dec 4th.
I am looking foward to undocking in a Proteus with a half mill in buffer and then gathering the griefer tears in a bucket.

So, you're going to option for Station game without aggression then? Let me know how that works out for you.

Should work out pretty well. I don't have to shoot anything, and when someone shoots me Concord takes care of them, and I get a kill right. The griefers/cowards are going to love the new bounty system, but the mechanic where I can dock up if I don't aggress is unchanged.

They are all viable in their own way. A pilgrim can solo a proteus for God sake. Prefect balance doesn't make for fun game play.

So if they're shooting at you, thus opening themselves up to attack since you can always defend yourself, and they won't be able to dock, eject, or jump for a minute after shooting you, how does that make them the cowards?

Have fun not being able to do anything BUT undock in heavily tanked ships only to redock at any sign of danger.

1. I am not the one being the coward using the new bounty mechanic to try to grief players out of the game.
2. Somehow suggesting suicide ganking someone for a bounty rings rather hollow when talking about cowards and honour.

You know James, sometimes I agree with you on stuff. But in this case you are way, way out of line.

1. I am not the one being the coward using the new bounty mechanic to try to grief players out of the game.
2. Somehow suggesting suicide ganking someone for a bounty rings rather hollow when talking about cowards and honour.

You know James, sometimes I agree with you on stuff. But in this case you are way, way out of line.

The Loki and Legion both need a bit of love. The Loki seems somewhat underpowered for most roles except fleet boosting and the Legion is underutilized except in very niche cases like incursions and wormhole PVP. The Proteus is of course an exceptional PVP ship with some PVE utility and the Tengu sees extensive use in both PVP and PVE.

I agree with you in that the Legion could use a bit of a buff too, but I was actually thinking about the other way for the Loki- it's the only T3 that can fit either an armor or shield tank and do both equally well while dealing decent (albeit short to medium range) DPS.

1. If you left the game because I placed a bounty on you, that is a bonus side effect. You cant make someone quit.

2. I don't care about honour.

Dinsdale: I would like you to learn that your posting and your arguments are terrible, and people take exception to that and there are consequences for your actions. I don't intend to actually spend my time hunting you down personally because you haven't offended me personally. Hunting someone down for forum posts not even aimed at you, however terrible they may be, is a lot of pointless effort.

If I place a massive bounty on you (everyone else feel free to contribute) and you stop spouting inane rubbish on the forums in such a way that is actually quite offensive to some and not at all what the rest of the community wants to see, it achieves its goal. If you decide to quit the game because of said bounty, then the goal has also been achieved. I'm happy for you to start posting like a rational, decent and polite human being with no desire for you to quit the game in particular. However from experience if either of these happens it'll be the latter before the former.

I don't care how it happens, I'd just like to think you'll learn that spouting off this sort of inane rubbish has consequences.

Spoken like a griefer and a coward.

What I post may be offensive to you, but you are not the arbiter of what is said on these forums. CCP has its own censorship team for that.
As for you teaching me some kind of lesson, think again.
I have dealt with your kind in game and in RL for a long time.

You try, quite badly at that, to hide your cowardice and bullying behind words, like "emergent gameplay", and "bad posting".
But simply put, you are a griefer. As for me quitting the game, you just may revitalize my interest in the game, because I may actually have to shoot asshats like you, when I start acquiring killrights. I say asshats LIKE you, because I am quite confident you will never look me up personally. Cowards like you never do.

Oh, and I am sitting on quite decent stack of coin, that will buy quite a few plexes and ships.
If I DO choose to leave the game at some point(I closed down all my other accounts this past summer due to Soundwave's actions), it will because of my dis-satisfaction with CCP's product, not because of some person like you.

Tech 3 ships are just as vulnerable to attack and destruction as any other class of hull in the game.

Sure, they have an edge as they're far more versatile in terms of customization, but in the same respect you take far more risk flying them due to their cost and the fact you lose skill points when you get asploded.

I like how these people with their dumb sayings like how Tech 3 is better than Tech 2 ships. How so?

-Tech 3 are rather poor logistic ships compared to Tech 2 and now the Tech 1 variants coming.

-There is no Tech 3 Hictor.

-Tech 2 Recons have superior Ewar/Neut Power compared to their Tech 3 Variants.

-Tech 2 HAC's have advantages that Tech 3 doesn't like mobility and speed, smaller sig radius, and LR advantages.

-Tech 3 Leadership boosting is already being fixed with the upcoming changes.

I like how these people with their dumb sayings like how Tech 3 is better than Tech 2 ships. How so?

-Tech 3 are rather poor logistic ships compared to Tech 2 and now the Tech 1 variants coming.

-There is no Tech 3 Hictor.

-Tech 2 Recons have superior Ewar/Neut Power compared to their Tech 3 Variants.

-Tech 2 HAC's have advantages that Tech 3 doesn't like mobility and speed, smaller sig radius, and LR advantages.

-Tech 3 Leadership boosting is already being fixed with the upcoming changes.

It's not about being better at a specific role. That's what you're missing.

Recons do ewar better, but at the huge tradeoff of speed and tank. Their survivability is **** compared to t3s... which is why players fly t3s in place of them pretty exclusively. The only real exception to that is the rapier.

Hictors have massive tank... and a very unique role.. sounds more like the types of concepts tech 3's should have been.

HAC's downright suck and anyone with half a brain would trade up to t3 fleets in an instant. You're pretty ignorant if you think hacs are faster or defensively better. Long range... barely to a certain extent on a few ships. Again, range can't make up for the 500,000 to million HP tech 3's with more dps and more speed, easier fittings, better cap, etc.

Commands are being fixed... big whoop. Only t3's that ever filled the role of commands were alt pilots that sat in towers or rolling safes. And there's no promise or history hat commands are being fix properly.... just empty promises so far

I don't see any ECM Tengus, Do you see any? A rapier has not only a superior webbing bonus but also a target painting bonus that goes well with it. You don't ever see Legions replacing Curses. Its a fair trade off for their superior electronic capability they have a fragile tank.

The Vagabond is a superior nanoship to the Loki. The ishtar is a superior nano-drone boat than the Proteus. The Cerberus can reach other to ridiculous distance with HM.

Tech 3 is awesome

Spoken like a griefer and a coward.

What I post may be offensive to you, but you are not the arbiter of what is said on these forums. CCP has its own censorship team for that.
As for you teaching me some kind of lesson, think again.
I have dealt with your kind in game and in RL for a long time.

You try, quite badly at that, to hide your cowardice and bullying behind words, like "emergent gameplay", and "bad posting".
But simply put, you are a griefer. As for me quitting the game, you just may revitalize my interest in the game, because I may actually have to shoot asshats like you, when I start acquiring killrights. I say asshats LIKE you, because I am quite confident you will never look me up personally. Cowards like you never do.

Oh, and I am sitting on quite decent stack of coin, that will buy quite a few plexes and ships.
If I DO choose to leave the game at some point(I closed down all my other accounts this past summer due to Soundwave's actions), it will because of my dis-satisfaction with CCP's product, not because of some person like you.

1. If you left the game because I placed a bounty on you, that is a bonus side effect. You cant make someone quit.

2. I don't care about honour.

Dinsdale: I would like you to learn that your posting and your arguments are terrible, and people take exception to that and there are consequences for your actions. I don't intend to actually spend my time hunting you down personally because you haven't offended me personally. Hunting someone down for forum posts not even aimed at you, however terrible they may be, is a lot of pointless effort.

If I place a massive bounty on you (everyone else feel free to contribute) and you stop spouting inane rubbish on the forums in such a way that is actually quite offensive to some and not at all what the rest of the community wants to see, it achieves its goal. If you decide to quit the game because of said bounty, then the goal has also been achieved. I'm happy for you to start posting like a rational, decent and polite human being with no desire for you to quit the game in particular. However from experience if either of these happens it'll be the latter before the former.

I don't care how it happens, I'd just like to think you'll learn that spouting off this sort of inane rubbish has consequences.

Have you SEEN nullsec fleet compositions? They fly swarms of faction fit Tengus like they were tech 1 frigates.

Good thing nullsec corps have all their alts in hi-sec where the big isk is made. ;)

So, are you going to make a snippy passive-aggressive remark every time someone mentions null sec?

That's a mighty big chip you got on your shoulder.

OK

EDIT: Only 22 days to go.

I can always depend on you jenn. I got my chip by learning from the best. :)

Not at all coming to the defense of Dinsdale here but for someone with such a big mouth on the forums, you sure have some horrible lossfits and a terrible KB.

Because a battleship can totally apply full "1000" DPS on almost any ship and zip around at a couple of km/s with a tiny sig and a +80km range.

I actually hate anyone using killboards to measure pretty much anything, they are totally pointless and easily manipulated. For example the last 3 fleets I FC'd resulted in kills, but I didn't get on the KM's. Therefore I'm a bad EVE player (I am a bad EVE player but that isn't why).

For anyone not sure what he's on about, over 3 months in null my KB stats are: 117 ships killed, 24 ships lost with a 98% efficiency. Of those 24 losses 10 of those are frigates, 1 is a BS i got killed stupidly when I first went to Null and the rest are drakes.

In terms of terribad fits he's probably on about these:

http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_detail/298728/ (Frist ship in null, was given to me by a friend as he had it laying around)

http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_detail/306850/ (kestrel i bought in the middle of a sloshop frig fleet I was leading as a blue bombed me, I didnt care what the ship was or what was on it).

If you look on EVE kill there are probably a few times (3 iirc) where I wasn't paying attention and died to rats because Drake vOv

Of course if you look up the guy posting this he doesn't have a KB at all, probably because he's posting under an alt to make snide comments about other people's killboard stats in a discussion where they aren't relevant without even revealing his own.

I'd guess you're probably in -A-, they love their KB stats when they don't matter too.

KB can give a good indication of a player's actual prowess, ofcourse a lack of a KB means nothing at all (as in my case atm) but on the upside it doesn't have any terrible losses either. See, I don't look at superficial numbers like most people, I actually look a bit deeper and all I see on your kb is kills in bigger fleets leeching onto the km (thus pretty much worth nothing at all) and crap fitted losses (CPR on a drake wtf?), almost all your latest losses are flawed showing a lack of actual understanding.

I like your passive/aggressive defence with the "lol must be AAA", sadly for you you're very much wrong but keep trying. The thing is you berate Dinsdale about his "posting manners" but if we take a better look at your posts then all we can say is "lol".

You're not going to get all 3 of those things on a T3 Strat Cruiser either so holding that up as the "Pi+¿ce de r+¬sistance" is faulty at best.

I don't think I've ever seen a T3 Cruiser with 1000 DPS with +80km range (applied dps otherwise it doesn't matter at all).

It's a trade off to fit these for 1000 DPS. To do so you lose some of the mobility (there goes the + km/s) and a LOT of the range you speak of. At that point you have to be very specific about how you engage in them otherwise you can't apply much of that paper DPS.

You can brick tank them like a mofo (600k EHP proteus comes to mind) but you're relegated to brick tackle or bait tackle (or some other non-DPS and non-mobile role as you're fat and slow at that point).

You can make them cloaky and scanny - but in order to do that you, again, lose some of the tank and gank. 1 v1 in that scenario against some unlucky PVE fit ship will go in the T3 favor. But cloaky/scanny T3 against a comparably piloted PVP setup won't fair so well.

Point being that T3 is not the "Easy Butan" that people make them out to be. One of the huge benefits of the platform is the ability to customize and in that customization lies it's strengths. But that customization doesn't make the ship unbeatable or even the best choice for all engagements.

Add in the bonuses from gang links etc etc and that changes the argument(s) fairly significantly but then that's a separate topic.

No they don't, killboards show nothing. I could have an alt which I use for l33t PvP solo, or I could be like Snot Shot and hang around cloaked and launch bombs onto people when they are fighting each other. There's a whole host of reasons why killboard stats are rubbish.

Yes my kills have been in bigger fleets, but so what? When I fly in roams I prefer to FC rather then fly along, and when I FC I don't care about getting on killmails, I care about my fleet going out and killing people.

The CPR is necessary because I am flying in a doctrine of my coalition and I wasn't able to fit all the modules on as required. I believe I've dropped a Ballistic Control mod for it meaning I lose DPS but not tank, when you have 256 drakes in a fleet you don't need to be so concerned about dropping some DPS. Then again of course you'd know this talking from a knowledgeable position of a blank killboard in some corp no-one has ever heard of?

Considering my losses are either drakes that I didn't pay attention to when ratting, drakes I lost as a part of a big fleet or frigates that I've taken out on drunken roams or not cared about, I would love to hear how my latest losses show a lack of understanding.

Trying to palm off my comment as a "passive/agressive defence" is a poor show. The comment is correct, -A- are notorious for failing to do anything strategic or meaningful and going "But hey, the killboards are green amirite?".

Anyone who has at least 2 ounces of grey matter and is actually involved in anything in a proper nullsec alliance knows that killboards prove nothing whatsoever. You think solo kills are pro? OK, what about the guy in my alliance who has built himself a cyno trap? Nearly everything that jumps into it gets killed with like no effort from his part, but hey they are all solo right? Or how about that 6 man gang that have all ganged up on one person? Does the killmail show how they perfectly executed a bubble in front of him mid warp, then someone scanned him down and warped in on him?

No, killboards and killmails are pointless chest beating. If you'd like to tell me why you think any of my losses unequivocally prove a lack of understanding I'd be grateful. If you're correct I'd have learn a valuable lesson to percent future losses. I suspect you wont be though, which means I get to laugh at your straw man arguments again.

If it was for the fact that I reckon you're probably not even being ironic with your posts I'd say you were a good troll. Sadly i actually think you believe what you type.

That's a lot of words trying to say "nuh uh". Still if you really feel that checking a person's fitting choices (through losses on his KB in this case) doesn't give some sort of indication on his actual knowledge&experience (even more if you can't even get fleet fits right or worse yet, tell others that they should use it as a fleet fit) then uhm... yeah. I guess that would explain a lot.

You're not even trying now. I asked you what apart from the ONE fit you pointed out (which I have explained) showed any indication that I had totally no clue what I was doing. You haven't done so.

If you do actually have anything to back yourself up feel free to put it forward, it would only help me if you were right, and you will look stupid if you are wrong.

Or I suppose you could continue to dodge my point and just say "lol KBs are the most important thing in EVE".

Must be cool to be a fittings expert... Congratulations.

Should we get back on topic?

You're not going to get all 3 of those things on a T3 Strat Cruiser either so holding that up as the "Pi+¿ce de r+¬sistance" is faulty at best.

I don't think I've ever seen a T3 Cruiser with 1000 DPS with +80km range (applied dps otherwise it doesn't matter at all).

It's a trade off to fit these for 1000 DPS. To do so you lose some of the mobility (there goes the + km/s) and a LOT of the range you speak of. At that point you have to be very specific about how you engage in them otherwise you can't apply much of that paper DPS.

You can brick tank them like a mofo (600k EHP proteus comes to mind) but you're relegated to brick tackle or bait tackle (or some other non-DPS and non-mobile role as you're fat and slow at that point).

You can make them cloaky and scanny - but in order to do that you, again, lose some of the tank and gank. 1 v1 in that scenario against some unlucky PVE fit ship will go in the T3 favor. But cloaky/scanny T3 against a comparably piloted PVP setup won't fair so well.

Point being that T3 is not the "Easy Butan" that people make them out to be. One of the huge benefits of the platform is the ability to customize and in that customization lies it's strengths. But that customization doesn't make the ship unbeatable or even the best choice for all engagements.

Add in the bonuses from gang links etc etc and that changes the argument(s) fairly significantly but then that's a separate topic.

Sure, if you really want to look like a clown, here we go:

No DC and no damage mods, just piled on speedmods because uhm... err.... I dunno. 2 nanofibers and 3 polys means hilarious stacking penalties, but don't let that stop you

Drake with a CPR, there's no logic in the world where that makes sense, no matter how much you try

Kestrel with 2 launchers and a cap flux coil, not even going to try and figure out if that makes any sort of sense (hit: it doesn't)


No fit at all on this executioner, I guess it's cheaper to lose them this way


No fit at all on this executioner, I guess it's cheaper to lose them this way

No DC, or any sort of tank, on this rifter, just piled on the speedmods again but at least you didn't get 3 polys on it. (hint: if you want to user a tackler there's better ships for it in the minmatar line). You lost 3 of those so I guess in your mind they make sense, ok

This drake is just bad

My job isn't to balance ships, so that's my personal opinion after having been a PvPer for best part of 10 years

I commend you for actually saying it, too many people these days are of the opinion everyone should be equal, despite time invested into skills or isk invested into ships/modules, it's sickening.

Vaga, much weaker tank, and not faster/better in any way. You don't apparently know what you can do with a loki.

Do people train Alts for Transports, Jump Freighters, Cyno ships? Must be too powerful then. .

I trained an alt for PI.
Nerf PI.

Do people train Alts for Transports, Jump Freighters, Cyno ships? Must be too powerful then. I've never trained an Alt specifically for a T3. Most of my training on this character has also been coincidental where it moves towards T3. I've got Gallente Cruiser 4, and that's as close as I am to flying a Proteus still.

My Alt has Battle Cruisers and Destroyers V yet not even close to flying a T3 with 7 million in Gunnery. Why is that?

If I had to guess, I'd say it's because as much as I like them, I can't afford to fly them and lose them. People fly and pimp T3 for PvP if they generally expect not to lose them. Either they are PvP fit doing PvE because of where they are and the risk they are taking, or they are so secure in their position that they worry not a shred.

edit: ..you also realize there isn't a ship in the game that has bonuses that low?

As soon as you log in to Eve Online, you engage in the mythical "Pee Vee Pee" that everyone so desperately seeks, so calling yourself a "PvPer" is entirely redundant and inherently a part of being a player in this game.

You haven't even offered an explanation there. However that is the EXE doctrine Drake fit, considering the rest of your totally nonesensical sperging I'll trust the guys in EXE's over your opinion everyday.

[Drake, Fittings.]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II

EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hornet EC-300 x5

[Drake, Perma-MWD Drake T2]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hornet EC-300 x5

Jesus!! -happy someone else here understands and flies T3's too.

o7

My job isn't to balance ships, so that's my personal opinion after having been a PvPer for best part of 10 years

Is that why your name is "Falcon?"