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d34x3rx	Posted - 2005.04.17 21:43:00 - [1] Edited by: d34x3rx on 17/04/2005 21:47:04 Do the Devs actually play the game ........ 1) The scorpion now cannot Jam / Dampen anything that snipes.. 2) Cloaked Bombers are "for the lack of a word" useless 3) And trying to fly a Interceptor is a dying art with target painters, 30km nos etc etc
Piscis	Posted - 2005.04.17 21:45:00 - [2] Originally by: d34x3rx is blank??
Amataras	Posted - 2005.04.17 21:56:00 - [3] can you justify your opinions for us? ie some statistics etc? (not a flame) -------------- The Eve Diplomacy Table
d34x3rx	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:02:00 - [4] Edited by: d34x3rx on 17/04/2005 22:02:36 Do the Devs actually play the game ........ Quote: 1) The scorpion now cannot Jam / Dampen anything that snipes.. Anything above 100km now is almost impossible to jam / dampen. Even with max skills you are nothing more than a sitting duck. Quote: 2) Cloaked Bombers are "for the lack of a word" useless They cannot warp cloaked, you still have to wait 10+ secs before you can fire. Quote: 3) And trying to fly a Interceptor is a dying art with target painters, 30km nos etc etc 28km + Nos are now becoming common and with the cheapest 30km Warp Scrambler @ 250 million isk there is becoming a major inbalance. Also without a counter to target painters anything small is a sitting duck tbh.
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:04:00 - [5] flying an interceptor just got a whole lot harder. the 5 sec to web + scrams was an idiotic thing to do and i really dont understand why they put it in. Stabbed up missile boats are now pretty much invulnerable as u either have to orbit or do extremely fast strafe runs (which can be done but not avoiding missiles at the same time). Flying an interceptor is still great fun, its just harder to keep a permanent web + scramble on target and i think thats a bad thing. Stealth bombers are pretty crap from wot ive heard but i dont know any stats EW overhaul is actually not that bad. I tested with a BB and me in a megathron. he jammed me 100% with 4 racials consistently for 5+ minutes so a scorp will probably be even better as it can carry more jammers. As for target painters they are screwed. Any ship running a MWD gets lit up like a xmas tree. 15km sig radius on blasterthron with just ONE target painter? yeah great. If any1 has tested this, there is a max sig radius for each ship. a raptor f.ex never goes above 1k, a deimos 3.8k, a mega 15k. And just 1 painter will give them those sig radius whilst they run MWD. They are screwed, big style, and need fixing asap Forums: Sharks - MC
d34x3rx	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:06:00 - [6] Edited by: d34x3rx on 17/04/2005 22:08:36 Quote: flying an interceptor just got a whole lot harder. the 5 sec to web + scrams was an idiotic thing to do and i really dont understand why they put it in. Stabbed up missile boats are now pretty much invulnerable as u either have to orbit or do extremely fast strafe runs (which can be done but not avoiding missiles at the same time). Flying an interceptor is still great fun, its just harder to keep a permanent web + scramble on target and i think thats a bad thing. The issue is that Nos (expecially 2) to a Interceptor normally = death and common nos ranges are now greater than than warp scrambler ranges. Quote: EW overhaul is actually not that bad. I tested with a BB and me in a megathron. he jammed me 100% with 4 racials consistently for 5+ minutes so a scorp will probably be even better as it can carry more jammers. The problem is the range ... all sub 100km meaning anything that snipes cannot be jammed
Eve II	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:11:00 - [7] the whole pos structure is ****. I can promise no dev has ever tried to setup and maintain one
BlackPlague	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:15:00 - [8] Originally by: d34x3rx 3) And trying to fly a Interceptor is a dying art with target painters, 30km nos etc etc It's a FRIGATE ffs! My Siggie Scares Seleene... Boo!
Alithieniel Cascade	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:17:00 - [9] Edited by: Alithieniel Cascade on 17/04/2005 22:47:20 Edited by: Alithieniel Cascade on 17/04/2005 22:18:14 I tested EW today, in battle. My EW skills aint all that great yes, but, we had to fight these sniper/stabbed folks, so they would warp in at 90-100km try to shoot something down and run off. I was primary 90% time ( good thing i fitted armor tank in lows -.-) My point is, my jamming rate was 1/9. 1 success 10 failures. Skills: Cal BS3 Long Distance Jamming 3 and that other skill hta timproves falloff 2 Was using 6 multispecs. Originally by: Eyeshadow EW overhaul is actually not that bad. I tested with a BB and me in a megathron. he jammed me 100% with 4 racials consistently for 5+ minutes so a scorp will probably be even better as it can carry more jammers. You do know that there are other ship types out there? Apoc/Tempests/Armas etc ?
Noriath	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:34:00 - [10] Edited by: Noriath on 17/04/2005 22:34:28 Let's talk about solutions, that's more fun: Ship range should in my opinion never exceede 60km significantly. warp ranges and sensor ranges in my opinion are a good measurement of the kinds of ranges that are reasonable. It's the same as with MWDs when they stacked currently, if you stack a whole bunch of modules you end up with ships that exceede the reasonable limits of range for that game. The EW Change to include EW range was stupid in my opinion. So far EW was the only thing that could reasonably counter snipers because it had longer range. Now ganking setups with extreme range can't be countred. Cloaks are useless in general the fact that you can't travel while cloaked makes them stupid. Cloaks should be very powerful and work while warping and jumping, but permanently wreck your HP pools because armor and shield emitters are swiched for cloak generators. (like a 50% hit to armor and shield HP). The sensor recalibration would be removed completly too, but you still could not recloak while locked. To balance it out there would for one be anchorable detection arrays with a 50km range, and also there could be a system to make scout drones acctually do some scouting and look for cloaked ships. Target painters are an idiotic mod to be honest. I don't see any reason why the devs added that dreadful thing. It's contra every balance between small and large ships. Nosferatus should drain percent based, not a fixed number, they would have a fixed number that caps the amount of cap drained. (So a heavy nos would drain let's say 5% cap from the enemy and put it in your cap, but when those 5% are higher then 100 for a heavy nos the amount would still be 100. A small nos would drain 5% too, but never drain more then 8)
Mongo Peck	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:37:00 - [11] ^^ Get this guy on the Dev team .... Oh CCP .... numbnuts listen to this guys !!! Mongo speaks !!
Alithieniel Cascade	Posted - 2005.04.17 22:52:00 - [12] Come to think of it, was quite funny that i was primary all the time, coz i wasnt really doing anything that would in some way help our gang ^^ lol. And yeah, what Noriath said, agree with everything cept for cloaks, coz i know nuthing about em.
SghnDubh	Posted - 2005.04.18 01:50:00 - [13] my 02 isk: 1) Can't say anything about EW, don't use it. 2) Standard cloaks are pretty much only good for protecting your ship and cargo investment while trying to sneak through an 0.0 gate-gank. However, covert-ops cloaks are absolutely flawed. What's the use of describing a covert ops ship as something that can gather intelligence behind enemy lines, when the player can't target (and therefore cannot scan) enemy ships while cloaked? Good grief, Devs, it's not enough to be able to cloak while warped; that "advantage" over a standard cloak is all but negated when a covert-ops ship jumps, and has to come out of "jump cloak" and go into "warp cloak" which, of course, exposes the egg-shell hull to insta-locking gate ganking pirates. Poof, goodbye expensive covert-ops ship! Pffft. So, what's the solution? Well, for regular cloaks, they probably have to stay the way they are. However, covert-ops cloaks should allow targeting and scanning while the covert-ops ship is cloaked. Add a restriction that only indirect target scanners can be used in this mode, and you have a covert-ops ship worth flying. 3) The counters to Inty's are assault frigs, destroyers, mounting small turrets, or flying in a mixed formation of ships that can cover each other when faced with various threats. There is no need, Devs, for bowing to the lone-wolf player who complains because his single-player tactics in a multi-player game won't work. The best way to counter a threat you can't handle is to team up! What doesn't kill you makes you stronger... Fight Smart: www.BattleClinic.com
TheNecromancer	Posted - 2005.04.18 05:44:00 - [14] my only comment is..I agree on that I dont think the devs play the game them self...
Dark Big	Posted - 2005.04.18 06:55:00 - [15] Originally by: TheNecromancer my only comment is..I agree on that I dont think the devs play the game them self... thay do. from what i seen in the dev chat there mining carebears. thay can care less about pvp and pirating.
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2005.04.18 07:27:00 - [16] Edited by: Jernau Gurgeh on 18/04/2005 07:27:43 Quote: SghnDubh Amarr Drones of Annihilation Veritas Immortalis You guys aren't anything to do with Robert Kilroy-Silk, are you? New EW is fine, BTW There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Killde	Posted - 2005.04.18 07:34:00 - [17] Edited by: Killde on 18/04/2005 07:41:00 Scorpion is no match for snipers. Multi jammers which most people carry max out at 72KM range before falloff, not even close to the 130km that snipers sit at. Specalized jammers do manage to reach 108km but with the falloff on ECM you'd only get like 25% jammer power on a sniper prehapes less depending on his range, and that's only if you have the correct jammer for him. Chance are if you do have the correct jammer type you only have 2 or maybe 3 cause i don't think anyone in their right mind would limit themselves by using all of one jammer type in PVP. I think the main problem is the stacking tracking computers. Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to adjust optimal range. I think turret and ammo should be all that determine optimal range, have tracking computer give a 50% speed bonus to counter act those nasty tracking disruptors. Atleast make the penalty for multipul computers/damage mods harsher, I've heard there is a bug where the 5th or 6th one gives you more of a bonus then the first one. 1st should give 100% second should give 50% and a third should give nothing. The counter to ECM is suppose to be teamwork with ECCM or some backup arrays. Most people have found that tracking computers + damage mods work just as well and give them the added bonus of increasing their offensive capablites while making them immune to EW!
Garia666	Posted - 2005.04.18 07:37:00 - [18] Originally by: Dark Big Originally by: TheNecromancer my only comment is..I agree on that I dont think the devs play the game them self... thay do. from what i seen in the dev chat there mining carebears. thay can care less about pvp and pirating. I second that the only thing they realy do care abotu is MONEH! moneh moneh.... oooooooh more moneh ... :\|
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.04.18 12:41:00 - [19] The new scorpian is awesome, people just have to get away from the idea that for jamming you need to use multispectrals only. Using Tech II racial jammers: Base Stength 7.2/2.4 Base Optimal: 54km Base Falloff: 27km lvl4 skills (Caldari BS, EW skills): EW strength: 10.368/3.456 Optimal Range 106km Falloff Range 38km lvl5 skills: EW strength: 11.25/3.75 Optimal Range 122km Falloff Range 41km Compare those EW Strengths to the Sensors on the main fleet gunships and thus the % chance of a jam: Megathron: 21 lvl4: 1 module = 49%, 2 modules = 74% lvl5: 1 module = 54%, 2 modules = 78% Tempest: 19 lvl4: 1 module = 55%, 2 modules = 79% lvl5: 1 module = 59%, 2 modules = 83% Apocalypse: 20 lvl4: 1 module = 52%, 2 modules = 77% lvl5: 1 module = 56%, 2 modules = 81% Armageddon: 17 lvl4: 1 module = 61%, 2 modules = 85% lvl5: 1 module = 66%, 2 modules = 89% If EW Falloff works like turret falloff you would have 50% EW strength at 144km at lvl5, 163km at lvl5. Fitting signal amplifers in your lows slots isnt a bad idea for an EW Scorpion either. Four Tech II amps give ~67% increase in lock range and ~50% increase in lock time. Combine that with 2 Sensor boosters and 6 Racial jammers you have a single ship that will lock faster than any gunship and have a superb chance of jamming a Matari, Gallente and Amarr Battleship at the same time. Bring along two scorpions and you can configure them as different 3/3 jammer setups, one jamming Gallente/Caldari, one jamming Minmatar/Amarr. With 16 Midslots you could even go 4/4 setup with signal amplifiers and have each scorpion realistically jamming four targets each at the same time, the beauty of it being neither would be attempting to jam the others targets as they have different racial jammers. Bring four scorpions and you can have the whole spectrum covered and they would still each have their own 'exclusive' target list: Scorp 1: Enemy Scorpions/Ravens, Scorp 2: Enemy Megathrons, Scorp 3: Tempests, Scorp 4: Apocalypses/Armageddons... (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
SwitchBl4d3	Posted - 2005.04.18 12:49:00 - [20] But if the current EW/variables were in place from the begining and then our new variables became that of our last build people would only shout OMFG u beefed up EW OMG U CAN JAM A SNIPER OMG Cepters arent godlike, any change and its whine. just adapt take it on the chin and move along "Teh lord of Nonni"
Alithieniel Cascade	Posted - 2005.04.18 14:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Gabriel Karade The new scorpian is awesome, people just have to get away from the idea that for jamming you need to use multispectrals only. Using Tech II racial jammers: Base Stength 7.2/2.4 Base Optimal: 54km Base Falloff: 27km lvl4 skills (Caldari BS, EW skills): EW strength: 10.368/3.456 Optimal Range 106km Falloff Range 38km lvl5 skills: EW strength: 11.25/3.75 Optimal Range 122km Falloff Range 41km Compare those EW Strengths to the Sensors on the main fleet gunships and thus the % chance of a jam: Megathron: 21 lvl4: 1 module = 49%, 2 modules = 74% lvl5: 1 module = 54%, 2 modules = 78% Tempest: 19 lvl4: 1 module = 55%, 2 modules = 79% lvl5: 1 module = 59%, 2 modules = 83% Apocalypse: 20 lvl4: 1 module = 52%, 2 modules = 77% lvl5: 1 module = 56%, 2 modules = 81% Armageddon: 17 lvl4: 1 module = 61%, 2 modules = 85% lvl5: 1 module = 66%, 2 modules = 89% If EW Falloff works like turret falloff you would have 50% EW strength at 144km at lvl5, 163km at lvl5. Fitting signal amplifers in your lows slots isnt a bad idea for an EW Scorpion either. Four Tech II amps give ~67% increase in lock range and ~50% increase in lock time. Combine that with 2 Sensor boosters and 6 Racial jammers you have a single ship that will lock faster than any gunship and have a superb chance of jamming a Matari, Gallente and Amarr Battleship at the same time. Bring along two scorpions and you can configure them as different 3/3 jammer setups, one jamming Gallente/Caldari, one jamming Minmatar/Amarr. With 16 Midslots you could even go 4/4 setup with signal amplifiers and have each scorpion realistically jamming four targets each at the same time, the beauty of it being neither would be attempting to jam the others targets as they have different racial jammers. Bring four scorpions and you can have the whole spectrum covered and they would still each have their own 'exclusive' target list: Scorp 1: Enemy Scorpions/Ravens, Scorp 2: Enemy Megathrons, Scorp 3: Tempests, Scorp 4: Apocalypses/Armageddons... I dont feel like wasting 2 months on training Caldari BS to lvl5 and EW to lvl5.
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.04.18 14:40:00 - [22] Originally by: Alithieniel Cascade I dont feel like wasting 2 months on training Caldari BS to lvl5 and EW to lvl5. I don't feel like training the 6mil gunnery for being a effective sniper or Gallente BS lvl 5, or any other skills for that matter. I wanna rock just because I did NOT train my skills beyond lvl 1. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Alithieniel Cascade	Posted - 2005.04.18 14:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Alithieniel Cascade I dont feel like wasting 2 months on training Caldari BS to lvl5 and EW to lvl5. I don't feel like training the 6mil gunnery for being a effective sniper or Gallente BS lvl 5, or any other skills for that matter. I wanna rock just because I did NOT train my skills beyond lvl 1. Ur gunnery skills affect All races, all u have to do when changing ship is to train other guns. Cal BS/EW skill sonly affects scorp in real way. Now plz stfu.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.04.18 14:47:00 - [24] Edited by: Noriath on 18/04/2005 14:50:43 Hehe, seriously... The only half way fair thing about ganking setups is that you acctually need a massive skillbase to use them correctly. The skillreqs for Caldari ships are a total joke, and then they complain that they can't use the same skills on other ships...
Keta Min	Posted - 2005.04.18 14:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Noriath Edited by: Noriath on 17/04/2005 22:34:28 Let's talk about solutions, that's more fun: Ship range should in my opinion never exceede 60km significantly. warp ranges and sensor ranges in my opinion are a good measurement of the kinds of ranges that are reasonable. It's the same as with MWDs when they stacked currently, if you stack a whole bunch of modules you end up with ships that exceede the reasonable limits of range for that game. The EW Change to include EW range was stupid in my opinion. So far EW was the only thing that could reasonably counter snipers because it had longer range. Now ganking setups with extreme range can't be countred. Cloaks are useless in general the fact that you can't travel while cloaked makes them stupid. Cloaks should be very powerful and work while warping and jumping, but permanently wreck your HP pools because armor and shield emitters are swiched for cloak generators. (like a 50% hit to armor and shield HP). The sensor recalibration would be removed completly too, but you still could not recloak while locked. To balance it out there would for one be anchorable detection arrays with a 50km range, and also there could be a system to make scout drones acctually do some scouting and look for cloaked ships. Target painters are an idiotic mod to be honest. I don't see any reason why the devs added that dreadful thing. It's contra every balance between small and large ships. Nosferatus should drain percent based, not a fixed number, they would have a fixed number that caps the amount of cap drained. (So a heavy nos would drain let's say 5% cap from the enemy and put it in your cap, but when those 5% are higher then 100 for a heavy nos the amount would still be 100. A small nos would drain 5% too, but never drain more then 8) <3
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.04.18 15:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Alithieniel Cascade Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Alithieniel Cascade I dont feel like wasting 2 months on training Caldari BS to lvl5 and EW to lvl5. I don't feel like training the 6mil gunnery for being a effective sniper or Gallente BS lvl 5, or any other skills for that matter. I wanna rock just because I did NOT train my skills beyond lvl 1. Ur gunnery skills affect All races, all u have to do when changing ship is to train other guns. Cal BS/EW skill sonly affects scorp in real way. Now plz stfu. Lol I can do several things well I think. Shutting up isn't one of em. My gunnery skills in no way affect all races. I can only fly 1 race ships. And fly them well. And only got hybrid/skills besides the standard. So I'm sry but nope. Most of my gunnery training affects only 1 race. And if we're going down that road. My 3mil skillpoints in drones only really affect Gallente too. And... and... Oh and about EW you're horrible wronng on one other point. I use 3 EW skills currently. Propulsion jamming and the 2 target painting skills. My ishtar also likes some other toys, but not getting into that. The EW changes made EW possible for other ships as much as they made it interesting for scorp pilots to actually invest training them in getting good at what they do. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Lygos	Posted - 2005.04.18 15:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Noriath Let's talk about solutions, that's more fun: Ship range should in my opinion never exceede 60km significantly. Smartest post I've read all week. Long range setups, especially on capital ships, are a tremendous waste of battlefield design potential. If all the changes that every frig pilot wants can't are simply aren't going to happen, then frigs and cruiser are going to need longer range. Honestly, I'd be happy if the speed on frigs was increased 10 fold, cruisers and industrials 5 fold and base warp in distance was extended to 150km. No instas. Long range battleship deployment should be a real headache to counter all the power they've been given.
Baytt	Posted - 2005.04.18 15:18:00 - [28] Edited by: Baytt on 18/04/2005 15:19:06 Originally by: d34x3rx Edited by: d34x3rx on 17/04/2005 21:47:04 1) The scorpion now cannot Jam / Dampen anything that snipes.. 2) Cloaked Bombers are "for the lack of a word" useless totally agree on those 2 points scorp needs atleast 20% optimal per lvl not 10 doesnt make sense to be a close and mid range jammer bombers need either the covert cloak or a sensor recallibration skill bonus just to make them semi useful tho for jamming multis aint the only thing that work racials work better now
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.04.18 15:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Baytt Edited by: Baytt on 18/04/2005 15:19:06 Originally by: d34x3rx Edited by: d34x3rx on 17/04/2005 21:47:04 1) The scorpion now cannot Jam / Dampen anything that snipes.. 2) Cloaked Bombers are "for the lack of a word" useless totally agree on those 2 points scorp needs atleast 20% optimal per lvl not 10 doesnt make sense to be a close and mid range jammer bombers need either the covert cloak or a sensor recallibration skill bonus just to make them semi useful tho for jamming multis aint the only thing that work racials work better now So a scorp is twice as effective at EW then other ships at max lvl. Don't you think that's a bit too much? ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Alithieniel Cascade	Posted - 2005.04.18 15:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Alithieniel Cascade Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Alithieniel Cascade I dont feel like wasting 2 months on training Caldari BS to lvl5 and EW to lvl5. I don't feel like training the 6mil gunnery for being a effective sniper or Gallente BS lvl 5, or any other skills for that matter. I wanna rock just because I did NOT train my skills beyond lvl 1. Ur gunnery skills affect All races, all u have to do when changing ship is to train other guns. Cal BS/EW skill sonly affects scorp in real way. Now plz stfu. Lol I can do several things well I think. Shutting up isn't one of em. My gunnery skills in no way affect all races. I can only fly 1 race ships. And fly them well. And only got hybrid/skills besides the standard. So I'm sry but nope. Most of my gunnery training affects only 1 race. And if we're going down that road. My 3mil skillpoints in drones only really affect Gallente too. And... and... Oh and about EW you're horrible wronng on one other point. I use 3 EW skills currently. Propulsion jamming and the 2 target painting skills. My ishtar also likes some other toys, but not getting into that. The EW changes made EW possible for other ships as much as they made it interesting for scorp pilots to actually invest training them in getting good at what they do. k Gunnery, Sharpshooter, Trajectory Analys, Motion Prjection and ****load of other affect only gallente. Right. I thought so.

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