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Kular	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:12:00 - [1] As many of you already know a extrodinary CORP THEFT has occured! Linkage The Guiding Hands Social Club [GHSC] Commited this open act of theft apon Ubiqua Seraph... and then bragged about it. ALL corps should immediatly expel anyone who has ever worked for GHSC as they are most likely spies as it was in our case. Arenis Xemdal was part of UQS for many months ( at least 5) befor he finally commited this ultimate crime... They claim this was a "kill contract" to destroy the player Mirial..... While they did destroy her Navy Apoc and pod her.... they went beyond that. They stole everything from UQS Billions of isk that dozens of players have spent over a year building up.. seriusly hurting many players feelings and causing emotional stress outside the game... (I'm not gonna die over it... but my mind shouldn't be taken up by game thoughts like this has caused) Why is this different than past Corp thefts????? THEY BRAGGED ABOUT IT...... They told everyone that they did it... and that theres nothing anyone INCLUDING CCP could do about it.. Basically say " Here CCP we have destroyed the gaming experience of dozens of your paying customers... and are holding it in front of your face to make fun of you and we're going to do it again and again because it pleases us......." Well- How does the rest of EVE feel about this...? Corp theft has been a problem for way to long... MANY claim its too late to do something about it.. I THINK NOT BANABLE OFFENCE would certainly stop this from happening... 9 people were Banned last year for blowing up a couple hundred people in Yulai.... that only lasted 2 hours and most the losses were returned.... You don't see that happening anymore now do you? How about we finally take action against these evil people out there who want to do nothing but ruin the game for others.... WHY ON EARTH would the rest of you want these people to continue to play the game you enjoy so much? I wouldn't even care if it was a 6-month BAN Long enough for them to consider if hurting other peoples gaming experience is worth it for some laughs....... Even CS servers ban people like this and they are know for being full of lamers.... Tell me EVE and CCP what are you going to do now... There is all the proof you need Written proof of the crime signed by the criminals themselves.... Since people doesn't read the whole thread before they post I feel I have to put this here in the top post for it to be noticed: Any discussions on real life law and law suits will not be allowed on these forums, the posts will be deleted and the poster may recieve a warning or worse. This is not negotiable or up for discussion. - Wrangler
Kage Getsu	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:17:00 - [2] The game has the tools to prevent something like that from happening. Don't make someone a director unless you know they're not gonna rip you off.
Captian Swap	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:18:00 - [3] Its your own fault for giving someone access to the stuff.... seriously it is.. if you dident want your stuff stolen, then only give yourself access or something... duh...
Kular	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:23:00 - [4] Might I remind you they planned this for almost 10 months... Made friends.... gained trust. Arenis spent 5 solid months of those in UQS alone... doing his best for our corp.. he was a good leader and friend to many members.... He earned his trust all the time he was planning to do such an evil act.. This is anothe reason why this is the most hineous of crimes... PLANNED corp theft like this is disgusting... this is purposfully trying to Hurt other players... meticulated and well planed out.. In other crimes this is considered a pre-meditated offence.. people that get Life in prison think like this when they commit crimes... Home of Ubiqua Seraph Eve's only all Sarum loyal corporation.
Kage Getsu	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:25:00 - [5] Edited by: Kage Getsu on 19/04/2005 04:26:03 But what he did wasn't illegal in the EVE universe. He took stuff that he had the right to take. Because the CEO gave him those rights. It was scummy, sure, but it wasn't a crime.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:32:00 - [6] If you ever let someone who has been in GHSC in your corp you are an idiot. Their reputation was well known before this incident so I don't see how you can claim ignorance. And I also see no difference between GHSC and PVP corps that extort other corps through empire wars. Isk is Isk, and I don't see how the MC causing billions of ISK in losses to XETIC, is somehow more noble then if GHSC had stolen that amount. --------------------------------------------------
Jaydom	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:33:00 - [7] Perhaps maybe more ways to punish those who commited the crime(is a crime still). Currently there is very little you can do.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Kular In other crimes this is considered a pre-meditated offence.. people that get Life in prison think like this when they commit crimes... Life in prison for theft? Hardly. Life in prison for random serial murder of traders? More likely. --------------------------------------------------
ElCapitan	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:35:00 - [9] if proper precautions were taken, this never would have happened. You mention CCP. Why would CCP do anything about your own screw up? It looks like it was done within game mechanics. You got nobody else to blame but your CEO. somebody else having access to my t2 bpo would be 1 person too many. Hopefully this is a good lesson for all people who own expensive BPOs.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Jaydom Perhaps maybe more ways to punish those who commited the crime(is a crime still). Currently there is very little you can do. You mean apart from war dec (or hire mercs to) GHSC. As they are quite open about their crimes and don't hide behind untraceable alts. --------------------------------------------------
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Kage Getsu Edited by: Kage Getsu on 19/04/2005 04:26:03 But what he did wasn't illegal in the EVE universe. He took stuff that he had the right to take. Because the CEO gave him those rights. It was scummy, sure, but it wasn't a crime. I understand this isnt a crime in the EVE universe, but I cant understand it not being one. If I date a chick for 5months, and she earns my trust, trust enough for me to give her a key to my house... Its still a crime for her to use that trust and key, to take stuff from my house. I see actions like this to be very much the same. It doesnt sound like he was some fly by night guy who hadnt earnt the right to hangar access...
Hakera	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:43:00 - [12] There is not much you can do because Eve game mechanics allow for a loss and a dependancy on shared assets. However, virtual property rights are increasingly becoming important such as the famous china case where the online company was forced to replace his assets as people do make their livlihoods in MMORPG's and the property whilst just data is 'their property' and increasingly subject to real life law. With the growth in the MMORPG industry and increasing emphasis on online property protection, there is a possibility that such theft could be brought to a real life justice system. Whilst I dont think we will see sweeping changes in the lifespan of eve. I would not be surprised if online companies can get away with 'its an allowable mechanic' (mechanics to prevent it dont exist) for much longer. Food for thought anyway. I hope you UQS lot dont quit over this. I enjoy fighting you and I know how you feel, my original corp was robbed soon after eve went gold and back then a few frig bpos and module bpos were weeks worth of collective work from a lot of players. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Kage Getsu	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:43:00 - [13] That's a real life example. In EVE, the ownership of assets seems to be much different than it is in our world. If you have access to something, it's yours. Or it belongs to whoever gets to it first.
Lorth	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:44:00 - [14] Well before the whinning gets worse. I'de like to say this. Its a game, and a game that advertises its self as a place where you can be anything, even a crook, if you wanted to. Frankly, CCP are not going to help you and they are quiet right in not doing so. You had all the options at your disposal to avoid this crime, yet choose to ignore them. That is not CCP's fault, its your own, and your suffering the consquenses. This part of the game was advertised, perhaps even encoraged.. Serveral times, and it is counterable. They should not be banned, what they did was perfectly inside the game mechanics. I don't support corp theft, but at the same time I'll say that what they did took a lot of skill and dedication. Sure its low, and ya they should be hunted till the end of time. But they should not be banned. Asking CCP to change the game to suit your needs, when there were options availible to you from the start, is utterly retarded.
Big doggy	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:51:00 - [15] um.. ah.. can I join your corp? Please? hehe
Kular	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:52:00 - [16] Sure there are ways to prevent this.... but these ways don't work at all. If you let your brother into your house, you do so because hes family and you trust him... hes never done you harm in the past... When he steals all your most valuable posessions and ruins your family then runs off to never get caught... what prevention did you have in that situation.... ( I have family that this has happened to, those people are now on Most wanted lists) Tell me where this fits into your "prevention mechanics" Also- This isn't about the isk... or material crap. Its about the principals of these acts of crime and how they go un-punished.... Where on the eve box did it ever mention "ruin the gameplay of your friends for fun" Is it just me... or does anyone else think that doing horrible evil things is WRONG and should be punishable... Like I said others have been banned for less.... Home of Ubiqua Seraph Eve's only all Sarum loyal corporation.
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Lorth They should not be banned, what they did was perfectly inside the game mechanics. I agree with that. My point of view on this is that this is a hostile act (Istvaan even mentions so). Concord destroys ships that engage in hostile actions in empire, but turn a blind eye to actions such as this. Which are equally if not more hostile. It just doesnt quite make sense to me.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Hakera However, virtual property rights are increasingly becoming important such as the famous china case where the online company was forced to replace his assets as people do make their livlihoods in MMORPG's and the property whilst just data is 'their property' and increasingly subject to real life law. With the growth in the MMORPG industry and increasing emphasis on online property protection, there is a possibility that such theft could be brought to a real life justice system. Oh yes I am in fact trying to get the police to press charges against m0o corp for acts of mass murder and robbery. Get a clue its a game. And one day CCP will turn the servers off. If game property becomes real property then every single MMO will be turned off the day before the law comes into effect. No company is going to want to run a game forever because they are obliged under law to give someone access to fictional property forever. Nor are they going to want to put up with law suits because a game change nerfed someones money making ability. CCP own the game, and my ships are as much "mine" as property cards from my friends monopoly set are "mine". --------------------------------------------------
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:57:00 - [19] Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Lorth They should not be banned, what they did was perfectly inside the game mechanics. I agree with that. My point of view on this is that this is a hostile act (Istvaan even mentions so). Concord destroys ships that engage in hostile actions in empire, but turn a blind eye to actions such as this. Which are equally if not more hostile. It just doesnt quite make sense to me. Actually if you destroy the ship in a 0.4 or lower or through a CONCORD sanctioned war, nothing really bad will happen to you. --------------------------------------------------
jamesw	Posted - 2005.04.19 04:59:00 - [20] Where is RollinDutchMasters when you need him... post a blank reply mate, just so we can read your sig in this thread. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:00:00 - [21] Originally by: theRaptor I agree with that. My point of view on this is that this is a hostile act (Istvaan even mentions so). Concord destroys ships that engage in hostile actions in empire, but turn a blind eye to actions such as this. Which are equally if not more hostile. It just doesnt quite make sense to me. Actually if you destroy the ship in a 0.4 or lower or through a CONCORD sanctioned war, nothing really bad will happen to you. Ok, so my description was slightly generalised, I had hoped people would understand that I didnt mean these exceptions in my comment.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Kular Also- This isn't about the isk... or material crap. Its about the principals of these acts of crime and how they go un-punished.... Where on the eve box did it ever mention "ruin the gameplay of your friends for fun" Here: Quote: Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. - EVE Online FAQ, section 6.7 http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_06.asp Can't get much more official than that.
jamesw	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Originally by: Kular Also- This isn't about the isk... or material crap. Its about the principals of these acts of crime and how they go un-punished.... Where on the eve box did it ever mention "ruin the gameplay of your friends for fun" Here: Quote: Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. - EVE Online FAQ, section 6.7 http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_06.asp Can't get much more official than that. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
Lorth	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Kular Sure there are ways to prevent this.... but these ways don't work at all. Yes they do. I'll aggree that the fact the some of the corp security options which havn't made itnot the game yet sucks.. but there were ways this could have been prevented. Originally by: Kular If you let your brother into your house, you do so because hes family and you trust him... hes never done you harm in the past... When he steals all your most valuable posessions and ruins your family then runs off to never get caught... what prevention did you have in that situation.... ( I have family that this has happened to, those people are now on Most wanted lists) Make Real life anologys isn't a good argument at all. Sorry. Originally by: Kular Also- This isn't about the isk... or material crap. Its about the principals of these acts of crime and how they go un-punished.... Where on the eve box did it ever mention "ruin the gameplay of your friends for fun" Where it said do anything you want. Or be the most nerfarious pirate to ever rule the skys, or "Be a.. mongul... spy" Do you know why these people are going to go unpunished? Because youwould perfer to whine on the forums, rather then war dec them and do it your self. You know who they are, and what charactor did this, why not do it your self? Thats how its suppposed to be done, not through countless petitions to CCP to do it for you. Originally by: Kular Is it just me... or does anyone else think that doing horrible evil things is WRONG and should be punishable... Like I said others have been banned for less.... The slaughter in Yulai got those people banned because they refused to listen to the GMs. Further they cercomvented the game mechanics, nither of which happend here. Yes what they did was wrong. And you can call them all the dirty names you can think of, and I'll aggree with you. But they certainly did nothing which was against the EULA, or the general mechanics. And they will not be banned, and should not be. They did this through earning your trust, and then exploiting that trust. If they are to be punished, let it e through player actions, not CCP.
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Quote: Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. - EVE Online FAQ, section 6.7 http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_06.asp Can't get much more official than that. Since we're copy and pasting bits from the FAQ's 2.9 How does CCP deal with scammers? One method that we have found quite effective in the handling of repeat offender scammers is to reimburse their victims from their own ill-gotten gains, particularly when a cheat was used to dupe their prey. Other options include the suspension or permanent banning of his account. Surely this was a scam? And surely GHSC are self confessed repeat offenders? 12.11 What is grief play? A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account. I could also see how CCP could include GHSC within that. I am not saying your actions are right or wrong (My own opinion is the game lacks a bit with ways to deal with issues like this) but surely you can see how this could be seen as pushing the boundaries of the game. Congrats on pulling this off, its just a shame I cant see anything positive coming from this.
Olivin	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:26:00 - [26] Edited by: Olivin on 19/04/2005 05:27:44 Originally by: Kular Might I remind you they planned this for almost 10 months... Made friends.... gained trust. What I can say. Bravo! Can you imagine planning something for 10 months? He talk with you, work for you, gain your trust in the sole purpose to destroy you in the end? What a plot! This is a true PVP. Originally by: Kular Arenis spent 5 solid months of those in UQS alone... doing his best for our corp.. he was a good leader and friend to many members.... He earned his trust all the time he was planning to do such an evil act.. I am curious, how much good he actually done during that 5 months? It's seems like a classic double agent story. Originally by: Kular This is anothe reason why this is the most hineous of crimes... PLANNED corp theft like this is disgusting... this is purposfully trying to Hurt other players... meticulated and well planed out.. How it's different from the planned gate camp or planned war? I think that planned corp theft is a valid PVP tactics although personally I don't admire it. Olivin
Meridius	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:47:00 - [27] You gave the people responsible for this the power to do it. They did not hack you or use any exploit of any kind. It is your own ignorance that has defeated you. Blaming others instead of accepting responsibility will only cause you to fail again in the future. You gave Arenis control of over 30billion in assets after him being in your corporation for 5 months? You deserve every bit of this. ________________________________________________________
Sleazy Cabbie	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:47:00 - [28] Working as intended. Sorry pal. It sucks but you just need to adapt and overcome. Hopefully this taught you something about the game and how the world works. This is what they call metagaming, using outside of game mechanics and resources (I'm not going to reveal what I have learned) to affect an in-game outcome. I'm sure if people's names and addresses were available, more than a few players would be found dead or missing, and the eve community would support it. My advice to you is...get over it.
jamesw	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Meridius You gave Arenis control of over 30billion in assets Just in case it didn't already sink in the first time he said it.... -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.04.19 05:56:00 - [30] Originally by: Sleazy Cabbie I'm sure if people's names and addresses were available, more than a few players would be found dead or missing, and the eve community would support it. If anyone would like to murder me, please refer to page 75 of your Eve Online game manual. My name is there, and finding the rest should be elementary.

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