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Hast	Posted - 2005.04.19 12:26:00 - [1] Its time for my rant again. This time I'm going to address something other then logging. this time its frigates that gets a look at. First off I'm going to start with the bombers. I'm possibly the first one in eve who has lost a bomber in pvp. Not confirmed but I'm pretty sure. Most likely since I'm the only one that has bothered to fly one into pvp. Here's the problem with the Bombers as I see them. Its really slow, and I mean really slow! in several ways; 1. They move slowly while cloaked. 2. Fitting a mwd on it is hard if you want to fit something else on. plus its suicide since it doesent even break the 1000m/s barrier because of its horrid mass. 3. its not exactly a blockade runner since it aligns slower than a cruiser. 4. it only warps at 3AU/sec 5. With my skills I could barely warp 30AU in the manticore. The enslaver who has top cap skills and warp drive op lvl5 could only warp 50 AU aswell. It was so bad that I got lagged behind a BS fleet. then its the firepower that gets a stab. 1. Rof is horrid if it doesent die in the first volley you are pretty much dead. forget cloaking since you cant move away or warp away while cloaked. Its just too darn slow to move away and any able pilot in a interceptor/frig should be able to uncloak you. 2. you dont have a missile velocity bonus so if you see a interceptor get the hell out of dodge or hope taht he comes within webrange. I died to a crow that orbitted at 15 with a 20km scrambler. didnt have a chance. 3. its got ok locking range (got 134km with a t2 sensor booster) but at that range you die instantly that any long range BS that looks in your direction. 4. Sensor recalibration time. with cloaking lvl4 its 12 seconds with a improved cloak II. either the target has killed you, locked you or left by the time you can kill it. 5. Firing and then cloaking. You cant cloak till the cruise missiles are 2km away from you giving the target good time to see where you are and uncloak you. and then to relock it you have to wait 12seconds aka you are dead, please selfdestruct. What saved me and let me live as long as I did was that people either thought it was a kestrel and ignored it or thought "ah, its a new uber cruisemissile ship, I dont think I should engage it". ofc all of them were wrong. When I died I had allready named my ship "the flying coffin".
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.04.19 12:29:00 - [2] Yeah bombers suck imho, to be honest id sooner have another BS in the fleet then a "flying coffin" Death to the Galante
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.19 12:31:00 - [3] then its the new EW changes and what this has done to tacklers and frigs in general. The cap usage and duration of the scramblers post patch is horrid. On my crow I used to have 2 7.5km scramblers and do flyby's this is now impossible since when you have cleared the target the 5 seconds is allready up. Also I used two cap relays in lows and a bcu for some added firepower. With this setup I cant run two 7.5scramblers anymore... so now Ravens are even harder to tackle and most frigs are basicly useless. The interceptor that struggles even more now is the stilletto. Alof of people I know flies a Stilletto since its "the tackler." Not anymore, since it doesent have the cap to run a -6points tackling setup. it seems to me that frigs are rapidly turning into fast shutttles for BS pilots to get to their ships. also anything less then a BS has trouble running a good EW setup. especially the Blackbird is struggling with cap troubles these days. ok, that finishes up my topic for now. please discuss!
Sternburg Export	Posted - 2005.04.19 12:33:00 - [4] Edited by: Sternburg Export on 19/04/2005 12:34:34 Thx hast for "testing" Thats were exactly the points that i and others posted in an other Bombers thread... Imo Bombers are useless for PvP. ____________________________ [ 2005.03.31 20:53:50 ] (mining) Your Basic Miner perfectly strikes Veldspar Roid, wrecking for 20 Ore units.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.04.19 12:38:00 - [5] I worked out that with good skills, the caldari bomber could easilly fit three siege launchers and a mwd, plus perhaps a cloak and something else. You need to fill those low slots with +12 auxillary power cores, though. Something tells me the value of my +12 cores that are for sale just went up. Cha ching :).
Selim	Posted - 2005.04.19 12:43:00 - [6] The only thing that needs to be said further is that bombers = suck.
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.19 12:48:00 - [7] well, I found that bombers had one good use in pvp... it made a mean shuttlekiller before that crow ended my killing spree I got 2 shuttles 1 rifter and 3 pods. I also helped kill a armageddon but It would have gone down fast had I been in a interceptor or my BS... the main point about this rant was also 5sec cycle on scramblers and too much cap usage = bad First off Tacklers was a good way for "noobs" to learn the ropes but now they cant even do that properly
Ris Dnalor	Posted - 2005.04.19 13:05:00 - [8] I was a bit dismayed after eagerly ( foolishly ) plopping down 90m to get one of the first minmatar bombers that rolled off the assy lines. First thing I realized was that it was not going to be a fast attack ship. Well, I thought, surely, for something so slow & massive that it would have some decent armor or shields.... it does have ok resistances, but the t2 bonuses to resistances are half that of the assault ship % increases. & the armor & shield totals fall somewhere between 1/2 & 1/3 of what the assault ships get. cloaking is poorly implemented on this ship. there needs to be some sort of bonus. can't warp while cloaked. my cheetah can fly faster while cloaked even if i did train covert ops to level 5, the cheetah would still be faster. the cloaking delays prevent romulan 'turtle tactics' of uncloak, fire, cloak. you are flying an eggshell... a very slow & unmanueverable eggshell.. that cannot use cloak as a defense... that cannot keep up with fleet movements... I think the breacher ( t1 verson of the hound ) is actually more viable for combat than the hound. it needs help. there's many ways it could be helped, & they should pick a path. make it tougher, or make it faster, or make it so that cloak would be a tactical advantage. but as it stands its a major dissapointment. tralala slower less resistant -- Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
P1rate Dave	Posted - 2005.04.19 13:09:00 - [9] cap use of tackling mods is now less than before the patch warp disruptor 50?cap/10s 1.210=12 50/12= 4.2 cap/s warp disruptor 25cap/5s 0.825=20 20/5 = 4 warp scrambler 5cap/5s 0.8*5=4 4/5=.8cap/s x 3 = 2.4 cap/s now if you cant run that on an interceptor then you need better skils (my calcs maybe wrong however )
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.19 13:17:00 - [10] Originally by: P1rate Dave cap use of tackling mods is now less than before the patch warp disruptor 50?cap/10s 1.210=12 50/12= 4.2 cap/s warp disruptor 25cap/5s 0.825=20 20/5 = 4 warp scrambler 5cap/5s 0.8*5=4 4/5=.8cap/s x 3 = 2.4 cap/s now if you cant run that on an interceptor then you need better skils (my calcs maybe wrong however ) then please explain to me why everyone has troubles running 7.5km scramblers on frigs then cap usage is the same if you have lvl5 skills btw...
darth solo	Posted - 2005.04.19 13:29:00 - [11] darn they sound pee... d solo.
P1rate Dave	Posted - 2005.04.19 13:32:00 - [12] Edited by: P1rate Dave on 19/04/2005 13:32:58 lvl 5 before patch 50cap/10s 1.2510 = 12.5s 50/12.5 = 4cap/s after patch 25cp/5s .7525=18.75 18.75/5=3.75cap/s not the same after lvl 5 skills.. and i dont know why people have trouble running scramblers on frigs my raptor setup is 1x disruptor and 1x scrambler, my cap holds a lot longer now than it did prepatch
Jack Blank	Posted - 2005.04.19 13:40:00 - [13] Originally by: Nyphur I worked out that with good skills, the caldari bomber could easilly fit three siege launchers and a mwd, plus perhaps a cloak and something else. dont you mean cruise launchers
Kunming	Posted - 2005.04.19 13:41:00 - [14] Originally by: P1rate Dave Edited by: P1rate Dave on 19/04/2005 13:32:58 lvl 5 before patch 50cap/10s 1.2510 = 12.5s 50/12.5 = 4cap/s after patch 25cp/5s .7525=18.75 18.75/5=3.75cap/s not the same after lvl 5 skills.. and i dont know why people have trouble running scramblers on frigs my raptor setup is 1x disruptor and 1x scrambler, my cap holds a lot longer now than it did prepatch If ur calculations are true, I'm really confused why I cant keep the cap on my old ceptor setups... do we have a stealth nerf here or what? Back to topic, the only solution to make s.bombers useful would be making them able to use covert ops cloak so they become some kind of ambush tool, but that would mean no one would fly the other covert ops, so better to release a cloaking module specially designed for s.bombers. Intercepting since BETA
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.04.19 17:21:00 - [15] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 19/04/2005 17:23:51 Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 19/04/2005 17:23:00 It's very straightforward. They need an increase in speed, in RoF (thats a problem with the cruise launchers themselves), and some kind of bonus for recaliberation. I agree recal needs to be there, but 12 seconds makes these ships useless, especially because they don't do enough damage per second. I was really looking forward to flying these and started a skill queue to train specifically for them, but it just doesn't seem plausible anymore. -Kyoko Sakoda Omerta Syndicate <Oveur> cause there is nothing as boring as seeing your ship jumping 50 systems <Oveur> I can like, have sex 150 times during that period
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2005.04.19 18:41:00 - [16] my stealth bomber is totally sweet... I has 6 1400mm artis, and can insta kill at 100km... I didn't need to train any new skills for it.
Trey Azagthoth	Posted - 2005.04.19 19:11:00 - [17] Guys, as with all the other ships, the Stealth Bombers just need some tweaking. Over time, they will be fine. My problem is the fact that CCP didnt let people test them on the "test server". If we had the chance to test them early, maybe they could have gotten feedback and improved them before bringing them ingame. Although Im not mad about it, the more I think about them not letting us test them out, the more I think a lot of ppl at CCP need their heads examined Vin Diesel claims he has never hailed a taxi. He just runs up to them at stop lights, opens the door, shoves the current passenger over, and tells the cab driver what his new destination is.
Drommy	Posted - 2005.04.19 19:46:00 - [18] not tested this idea, hence idea :) but with covert lvl 5 they should go faster cloaked, also if u uncloaked up a cepters ass and fired of fof's im sure it would put the cat amongst the pigions. that way u dont have to worry about waiting for a lock, and the cepter has 0 time to react, if by some mirical he hits the mwd in teim he aint gonna have u locked so u can just escape to fight another day. _______________________________________________ A good leader takes their people where they want to go A great leader takes their people not where they necessarily want to go, but ought too.
Berilac	Posted - 2005.04.19 20:26:00 - [19] ok. the idea above is wrong because fof's only fire at a target if they have locked and used a module on you. therefore, the idea that "the ceptor wont lock you" is flawed, even if the missles could fire, which they cant, they wouldent shoot them. and, any ceptor pilot worth there snuff wouldent sit anywhere long enough for a cloaked ship to approch them. --- 'Sweeden Steel Bite hard'
Epofhis	Posted - 2005.04.19 20:46:00 - [20] my stillly does seem to use less cap w/ webs that im sure of, i havent looked at the scrams yet, but ill try running 4 points 2night, but the strafing thing is kinda a bummer, could we get maybe a 7 second web? I know nothing of the bombers, but then again i havent trained the destroyers or BC's cause i think they are all "new" cannon fodder, more aimed at our n00b peeps than those of use that where be4 these ships came out, so i doubt ill be training S. Bombers any time soon and to the guy about fof's.. U can come, and ill stay still, and see if u get more than one volley off on me be4 i wtfbbqpwn ur ass also i see a slight pg change somewhere, my wolf i had a loadout prepatch that used 60/60 pgrid, same setup now uses 59/60 pgrid, did small repper t2 get a grid reduction, or mayhap my guns did, or did mwd? there are you happy now, my sig fits every rule. Now, no delete me pls, I promise to be good!!!11010101!!
Lygos	Posted - 2005.04.19 20:51:00 - [21] Bombers will only be more useful than a techI class 1 frig when they can use the advanced cloak or have their post-cloak lock time reduced by 2/3s. Or all ships have increased lock times and all PvP in the game starts revolving around rapid use of the scanner and covert ops frigs. CCP is unlikely to reverse themselves on making frigs worthless. One of the last few ways to see any frig have a future in EVE is to incorporate "seep-through" damage. If a small proportion of damage always seeps through to a target's hull, then that ship has at least served some small purpose, hopefully commensurate with its value. To make this really significant, self-hull repairers should be removed from the game, or require expensive, cargo consuming, complex charges to operate. Also, if no frigates are supposed to be viable as short range platforms anymore, then all frigates need a turret/rocket/missile range extension, and commensurate speed increases for the new orbit radii. This includes the assault frigs and the covert bombers or whatever they are called. The argument that you should get what you pay for has some merit, but only so far.
Terradoct	Posted - 2005.04.19 21:24:00 - [22] To solve this bomber issue, CCP needs to rename them to BOMBERS, remove any skill req. covert ops. Add to game a special Torpedo Launcher that can hold 1 torpedo and can be used only on Bomber. Add to all bomber 1 more missile launcher hardpoint. Structure, armor and shield should be 50% more than have hull on wich they are build. Leave speed as it is now on them. Here we go, we have now a precicly tactical weapon. Not that ****y brick that they are now.
Skelator	Posted - 2005.04.19 21:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Terradoct To solve this bomber issue, CCP needs to rename them to BOMBERS, remove any skill req. covert ops. Add to game a special Torpedo Launcher that can hold 1 torpedo and can be used only on Bomber. Add to all bomber 1 more missile launcher hardpoint. Structure, armor and shield should be 50% more than have hull on wich they are build. Leave speed as it is now on them. Here we go, we have now a precicly tactical weapon. Not that ****y brick that they are now. I agree but with a Twist.. How about a 1 shot Bomber with a Citadel Torpedo mounted. They have us Surrounded again.. the Poor Bastards
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.04.19 21:49:00 - [24] I'm not sure if I agree with the torpedos idea, but they need a general stats boost across the board, and the cloak recal means these things drop like flies. -Kyoko Sakoda Omerta Syndicate <Oveur> cause there is nothing as boring as seeing your ship jumping 50 systems <Oveur> I can like, have sex 150 times during that period
BigJim Beef	Posted - 2005.04.19 22:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Epofhis also i see a slight pg change somewhere, my wolf i had a loadout prepatch that used 60/60 pgrid, same setup now uses 59/60 pgrid, did small repper t2 get a grid reduction, or mayhap my guns did, or did mwd? Yeah, small rep II's are now 6 grid and 6 CPU, instead of 7 and 5.
Shiner BockBeer	Posted - 2005.04.19 22:07:00 - [26] How about this for a Stealth bomber fix: No ROF bonus. No Speed while cloaked bonus. Chance to cloak while locked. Ability to warp cloaked. Decrease in sensor recalibration time when uncloaking. This way they're no good as scouting ships, but can perform their intended role and still have an effective counter in the form of defender missiles and anti-cloak pulse. They can uncloak, fire, recloak, and there's still a chance that inties will catch and kill them. After all, isn't that the classic role of the interceptor?
Ris Dnalor	Posted - 2005.04.20 02:45:00 - [27] actually i think my breacher frigate has better dot than the hound alhtough i haven't actually ran the numbers ;:( -- Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
Hast	Posted - 2005.04.20 08:14:00 - [28] well, as it stands cruise missiles make a pretty bang, but I would rather have a frig thatds uber with light missiles or have a seperate weapon associated with it. one of the reasons the bomber stink is the fact that the Cruise launcher is one of the worst modules I can think of fitting on my battleship. and doesent matter what firepower it has cos its too slow, you got more firepower and maneuverability in a bs. I was speeding like a madman on instas but I still could not keep up with the main fleet.
Mealina	Posted - 2005.04.20 11:14:00 - [29] Edited by: Mealina on 20/04/2005 11:38:24 have someone a screenshot of a stealth bomber?
BORG 7OF9	Posted - 2005.04.20 12:02:00 - [30] I been doing testing on rats on 0.6 system with the Manticore and have to agree with what Hast said on this matter. I was very surprised at how long it takes to warp from a standing start. Struggling to find a decent set up for this ship too. :(

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