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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5134
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Posted - 2012.11.16 22:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Player > Hi, I'd like to borrow 1 billion ISK please.
NPC > Great, just fill out this form and we'll deposit the balance (minus fees) into your wallet! Then, all you have to do is repay us in a timely fashion and CONCORD won't kill your ship.
Player > That's great!
NPC > Thanks for doing business with Eve Bank of Legitimacy!
Player > No no no, thank you.
Player then transfers 1b isk to his main and forgets that alt account ever existed, buying PLEX with the proceeds in an effort to perpetuate this scheme with a different "free" paid account.
Yeah, great idea! Sign me up! Even if players don't know who you are, Concord should....then allow Concord to go after all your accounts..... 
Listen I need to have a talk with your parents
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
2401

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Posted - 2012.11.16 23:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
This is quite an interesting discussion which reveals that EVE is indeed a very deep universe with rich game play.
Off topic posts got removed and the thread was moved from General Discussion. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1995
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Posted - 2012.11.17 00:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Nobody I know would put their T2 BPO into a third party's hands.
Would you?
Hmm I have held T2 BPOs as collateral some times, what's strange with that? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Azurius Dante
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
8
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Posted - 2012.11.17 00:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Because banks in real life right now are a good thing too :P |

Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Heavy Industries Sick N' Twisted
18
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Posted - 2012.11.17 05:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Even an in game NPC Pawn Borker would have issues.
Lets say you secure a loan against a module, say 70% of its estimated value. With the possibilities of market manipulations, you could buy up all these modules in advance, massively inflate the price, wait for the average to double and then cash in by pawning the items.
I'm guessing there are no NPC banks because given EVE's culture of scams and exploits, it would kill the system. Shame really, because it would be cool. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |

Jan Deltord
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.11.17 06:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I'm guessing there are no NPC banks because given EVE's culture of scams and exploits, it would kill the system. Shame really, because it would be cool.
Instead, we have PC banks.
One of them posted just above you. |

Trader CiCi
Jack of all skills
0
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Posted - 2012.11.17 06:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67004&find=unread Grendell is one also  Here's how I think of my money -- as soldiers -- I send them out to war everyday. I want them to take prisoners and come home, so there's more of them." - Kevin O'Leary/Shark Tank |

flakeys
Angels of Anarchy Interstellar Confederation
428
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Posted - 2012.11.17 07:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mr Pragmatic wrote:
Or am I just daft?
Yes ... There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed.-á |

Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Heavy Industries Sick N' Twisted
18
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Posted - 2012.11.17 12:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
I know there are PC banks, lenders and bondsmen. I applaud their ingenuity and business acumen. But there's also a lot of scammers in the smae.business. But that's EVE. I was merely voicing my opinion as to why lending with collateral would not work through NPC's. MODULAR DRONES
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Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
5
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Posted - 2012.11.17 12:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
player account A takes the loan then transfers it to account B
Account B uses the money and lives happily ever after.
Sounds about right.. Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
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Mr Pragmatic
76
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Posted - 2012.11.17 17:47:00 -
[41] - Quote
The PC banks are a good idea. non the less they can not enforce if someone doesn't pay a debt back. Perhaps the DEVS should make a way for when you make a corp you can choose what kind of corp it is. Certain corps could have jurisdiction over people who don't pay back their loans. IE Confiscation of isk and items. Only giving loans to players with a certain amount of SP.
Making a new forum of currency other than the normal 2.
Come on people get some ideas so the devs can rip it off and call it their own. :) Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -Aldous Huxley
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Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1760
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Posted - 2012.11.17 20:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Nobody I know would put their T2 BPO into a third party's hands.
Would you? Hmm I have held T2 BPOs as collateral some times, what's strange with that? I stand corrected.
Were they ammo BPOs or something more valuable?
Come on, you can tell! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |

TornSoul
BIG Everywhere - Everything
86
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Posted - 2012.11.18 10:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Were they ammo BPOs or something more valuable?
Come on, you can tell!
Speaking on behalf of my experience with BMBE heres a quick list of some of the BPO's and rare ships I've handled as collateral for loans over the years
Adrestia Archon Blueprint Bistot Mining Crystal - ME:25 covert ops cloaking device ii blueprint. covetor BPO Crokite Mining Crystal - Me:25 Crusader Dark Ochre Mining Crystal - ME:25 Eagle Enyo Blueprint freki Gneiss Mining Crystal - ME:25 Guardian vexor heavy capacitor booster ii blueprint Hedbergite Mining Crystal - ME:25 Hobgoblin II BPO Improved cloaking device II Jaspet Mining Crystal - ME:25 Kernite Mining Crystal - ME:30 leviathan blueprint. - ME1/PE0 Malice Mastodon medium armor repairer ii blueprint Mercoxit Mining Crystal - ME:25 Mimir Omber Mining Crystal II orca prints as collateral Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II Raptor Retribution Scordite Mining Crystal II Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Plasma Smartbomb II Spodumain Mining Crystal II Titan BPO utu Vangel Veldspar Mining Crystal II
I've not included capital construction blueprints (almost as long a list in itself) - But they are very commonly used as well.
All sorts of other stuff are used as collateral as well - Ships/ships fitting/construction materials (all the way from PI to T3 items) etc
But as the BMBE usually deals in large loans, the above list is quite representative - ie. you won't see ammo BPO's... |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2000
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Posted - 2012.11.18 12:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Nobody I know would put their T2 BPO into a third party's hands.
Would you? Hmm I have held T2 BPOs as collateral some times, what's strange with that? I stand corrected. Were they ammo BPOs or something more valuable? Come on, you can tell!
If I recall correctly, two were ammo but others were cruisers, interceptor and similar.
Edit: I noticed how other people keep a very precise listing of those records (and some 3rd party collateral holders keep records of how much they "transacted". I don't, so I go by memory and don't really care to record those details. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
106
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Posted - 2012.11.18 15:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
Just to add fuel to the fire, most of the collateral that seem to come my way in terms of loans/bonds seems to be T2 bpos and capital bpos. The T2 bpos have ranged from ammo bpos to hulk bpos, it's pretty random in terms of which types.
As far as an npc bank, I wouldn't bee too fond of that. It takes away from the sandbox community creativity we are so fortunate to have in eve. Player run banks in eve do not have the best track record that I must admit, but that does not mean they can't be successful and legitimate. The bigger issue is it might not really be worth the effort with the current tools we have at our disposal to have them grow beyond a certain size. As an example I'm basically running a very simple bank on my own. But I also cap the size of the operations isk in take , and number of clients.
Just some food for thought.
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
201
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Posted - 2012.11.18 16:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
The trouble with Banking in EvE is that it can only really be done the same way banking was done in the 19th century. Which is insufficient for such a connected galaxy. I did business with Ricdic's Bank on several occasions, but really it worked more like a investment bank than any useful end user banking. As it stands, EvE doesn't give us enough sand to flesh something like that out in any useful format.
So in conclusion, any attempts at a bank might as well just be calling themselves a mutual fund.
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Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Heavy Industries Sick N' Twisted
23
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Posted - 2012.11.18 20:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:The trouble with Banking in EvE is that it can only really be done the same way banking was done in the 19th century. Which is insufficient for such a connected galaxy. I did business with Ricdic's Bank on several occasions, but really it worked more like a investment bank than any useful end user banking. As it stands, EvE doesn't give us enough sand to flesh something like that out in any useful format.
So in conclusion, any attempts at a bank might as well just be calling themselves a mutual fund. How much did you lose then? MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |

Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire Blazing Angels Alliance
94
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Posted - 2012.11.18 20:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
I think it is only one thing to say about this subject.
Don't create some Bull**** NPC organization to spawn more ISK to us the players. Give us the players the tools that we need to operate it, if some of us is creative and use it in an unexpected way. So be it, but at least we the players are only shuffling ISK around among our self. |

Mr Pragmatic
76
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Posted - 2012.11.18 21:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
Whats wrong with depositing money into an NPC corp that collects interest. It could be like a CD I believe where you couldent pull out the isk for a certain amount of time.
I know you belligerent vets hate the idea of "Isk faucets" instead of complaining about "isk faucets" How about you figure new ideas for "Isk drains" other then PVP herpaderpa. Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -Aldous Huxley
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flakeys
Angels of Anarchy Interstellar Confederation
430
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Posted - 2012.11.18 22:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Mr Pragmatic wrote:Whats wrong with depositing money into an NPC corp that collects interest. It could be like a CD I believe where you couldent pull out the isk for a certain amount of time.
I know you belligerent vets hate the idea of "Isk faucets" instead of complaining about "isk faucets" How about you figure new ideas for "Isk drains" other then PVP herpaderpa.
If you don't know how to cure it just make it worse?
Now that's the spirit  There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed.-á
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Myriad Blaze
15
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Posted - 2012.11.19 10:37:00 -
[51] - Quote
I believe it would be possible to make a NPC bank work if you follow some basic principles.
1. Interest rate must correlate to risk. The interest a bank pays is (more or less) a payment for the risk you take when you deposit funds in that institution. This risk is the risk of losing some or all of your deposits in case of an imbalance of the bank.
In terms of game mechanics there could be a complex formula that checks on a daily basis whether the bank gets into financial distress. This formula should take into account all the significant operating numbers of the bank (in a simplistic approach probably only total amount of deposits and loans at first), the political situation of the empire where the bank is authorized or has its headquarters respectively (i.e. if the Amarr Empire loses a solar system, that could have a negative impact on bank institutions that are based in the Amarr Empire), the business model of the bank (NPC banks should have some kind of a business model at least for role playing purposes, i.e. the business model could be to invest in NPC mining operations which could affect the bank if mineral prices change significantly) and maybe other things.
If the bank gets into financial distress a second formula could then determine the amount of loss for depositors GÇô a haircut of 30% or 40% would not be unrealistic.
This also includes an opportunity to create a new ISK sink. To protect depositors from potential losses you could implement a bank deposit guarantee scheme that protects some of your deposits at a cost (like ship insurances).
2. Bank loans must be covered by capital held by the bank and collateralized by the debtor. Bank institutions need to have capital (of a certain quality) to cover their risks so that (minor) setbacks to their business scheme donGÇÖt threaten the institution itself. Considering this is EVE Online IGÇÖd suggest to set the capital ratio to 100% or at least close to 100% (meaning the bank could only give ISK as a loan to a player, if other players gave the ISK to the bank in the first place).
Collateral could be a problem as others already said. I believe it could work if the bank only accepted items that are traded in larger quantities and not at the full market value of that item (I would make it a function i.e. 70% of the lower of the current market value and the median value over the last 3 months).
If you think about it, youGÇÖll even find good reasons for investors to not sell an item but use it as collateral instead. LetGÇÖs assume you invested 2 Bn ISK in Megacyte at 2,000 ISK/unit because you believe the price will go up to 2,800 or even 3,000 in 6 to 9 months. If you use your stack of 1,000,000 units of Megacyte as collateral, the bank would give you a loan of 1.4 Bn ISK for example at a cost of 7% interest (assuming you have good standings towards the bank GÇô maybe this even gives an opportunity to introduce a new social skill if you want: GÇ£boot lickingGÇ¥ raises the chance to get a loan for low interest rates ). You could use that money for short term investments while you wait for the price of Megacyte to go up. Or you take that money and deposit it in that other bank institution in that contested border system that currently offers 12% to depositors and hope that your side will win and that the bank survives.
To increase complexity you could start by accepting X% of the value of items taken as collateral to count towards own funds requirements of the bank, where X% is a value that takes into consideration the risks inherent in liquidating assets on a gone concern basis as opposed to the going concern value of those assets. (Note: I wouldn't suggest that the bank actually sells these items on the market, because otherwise the bank would compete with players which could have an undesireable impact on the ingame economy. Instead said items should just be removed from the game after a grace period in which the player can try to pay off the loan so he gets the collateral item back. And if the market value of the item declined and is suddenly not covering the loan anymore, the player might choose to keep the loan which might destabilze the bank which in turn might endanger the deposits of the depositors of that bank.) |

Every One
Omni Galactic Resource Excavation Inc. Tri-Star Galactic Industries
13
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Posted - 2012.11.19 11:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
What this economy needs is something to STOP the inflation, not to make it worse.
Thereby I suggest we make more scamming banks. A lot of ISK disappears over night and goes towards only 1 player that will not use it too much as to deliver it back on the market = deflation.
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
257
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Posted - 2012.11.19 11:14:00 -
[53] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Val'Dore wrote:The trouble with Banking in EvE is that it can only really be done the same way banking was done in the 19th century. Which is insufficient for such a connected galaxy. I did business with Ricdic's Bank on several occasions, but really it worked more like a investment bank than any useful end user banking. As it stands, EvE doesn't give us enough sand to flesh something like that out in any useful format.
So in conclusion, any attempts at a bank might as well just be calling themselves a mutual fund. How much did you lose then?
I didn't lose anything. I saw the signs and pulled out two days before he robbed his own bank.
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Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire Blazing Angels Alliance
94
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 13:55:00 -
[54] - Quote
There is only one item I can think of that are relative safe against price manipulation, and that s PLEX. The second item would be Technetium to me, but I think someone has already proven that not even that are safe from manipulation. So Based on my own experience of how easy it is to affect the market and what I have seen large entities can do to the market, I wouldn't bet my right nut on that even PLEX is safe if the player base decide to mess with it.
I personally would abuse this system to the maximum. Lets say I buy a lot of PLEX, use half of them as collateral. With my new ISK I can buy even more PLEX, after that it is just a question of rinse and repeat. The price will climb and at some point I could sell my own half of PLEX for a nice profit. Send the remaining ISK from my disposable alt account never to be seen again.
I think it is proven that the EVE player base will take what we get and twist it around itself and use it in an way that it never was intended. To name a few.
Factional warfare changes Insurance system Pax Amarr
I am sure there is a lot of other also this was just the most recent that I had in my mind atm. All of these was changed or removed because they didn't work as intended.
A bank system would have to be constantly watch and monitored, and anything market related that has anything with collateral to do would have to be equally monitored. This would fast spin out of control and the damage when someone miss something would result in a ISK fountain.
This is something CCP would be very smart to stay out of. This something the player base should control them self. The risk should be with individual players, corporation or alliances. I am all for new tools to let this be a part of EVE. It could create a new profession, new routes to E-fame, new possibility's for scammers. It would add to the player versus player interaction rather then Player to NPC and that is in my opinion much more preferable. |

Myriad Blaze
15
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Posted - 2012.11.19 17:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
For several reasons I think it wouldn't be that simple.
1. The bank in my suggestion can only lend out money it got from players. ISK is not created, just redistributed - it should be obvious why this is very important (actually you'll find a possible exception to this rule towards the end of my suggestion). 2. The formula to determine the value of the item you want to use as collateral was meant as an example. I would expect something more sophisticated if such a system goes life (like taking into account price spikes, trading volume, volatility). But even this very simple approach uses the lower value from current value and median value over the last 3 months. Sure, it's possible to manipulate the market even on a 3 month scale. But with an item that's traded by many it will cost you a LOT of ISK. Add to this the fact that you only get 70% of the items value (in my example) and it gets even harder. 3. If you remove money from the bank you'll affect the banks operational numbers. In my suggestion I mentioned the total amount of loans and deposits. Even if we assume that we forgot to implement safeguards, like increasing interest rates when the total loans/total deposits ratio shifts in an undesirable direction or like a stop of lending out ISK when a certain threshold is reached you still risk to crash the bank, losing access to your collateral items before you even closed the difference between the reduced value and the actual value.
I'm not saying that it would be impossible to abuse such a system. But at least it wouldn't be easy. (Besides, I'm just saying such a system could work. I'm not saying that we really need NPC banks.) |

Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
107
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Posted - 2012.11.19 18:21:00 -
[56] - Quote
Myriad Blaze wrote:For several reasons I think it wouldn't be that simple. 1. The bank in my suggestion can only lend out money it got from players. ISK is not created, just redistributed - it should be obvious why this is very important (actually you'll find a possible exception to this rule towards the end of my suggestion). 2. The formula to determine the value of the item you want to use as collateral was meant as an example. I would expect something more sophisticated if such a system goes life (like taking into account price spikes, trading volume, volatility). But even this very simple approach uses the lower value from current value and median value over the last 3 months. Sure, it's possible to manipulate the market even on a 3 month scale. But with an item that's traded by many it will cost you a LOT of ISK. Add to this the fact that you only get 70% of the items value (in my example) and it gets even harder. 3. If you remove money from the bank you'll affect the banks operational numbers. In my suggestion I mentioned the total amount of loans and deposits. Even if we assume that we forgot to implement safeguards, like increasing interest rates when the total loans/total deposits ratio shifts in an undesirable direction or like a stop of lending out ISK when a certain threshold is reached you still risk to crash the bank, losing access to your collateral items before you even closed the difference between the reduced value and the actual value. I'm not saying that it would be impossible to abuse such a system. But at least it wouldn't be easy. (Besides, I'm just saying such a system could work. I'm not saying that we really need NPC banks.)
I don't think the questions was IF an npc bank could work, as that's really not a difficult task. It's having some improvements made to the tools available for players to properly run a bank on their own. Sinks and faucets aside, an NPC bank would be a negative thing for a sanbox game like we currently have. CCP are in constant development to reduce the input of NPC and AI and actively trying to let the players run the "system". They do so by removing npc goods, and adding tools to allow players to create new businesses and services.
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Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
90
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Posted - 2012.11.19 18:23:00 -
[57] - Quote
Characters are disposable, so characters cannot be punished. Accounts cannot be punished because those are also disposable.
Without a way to punish, there is no hope of a real bank. There needs to be a way to tie debt to a real person, not characters and accounts.
The only other way is to require some sort of collateral, but this method would need to be well thought out to keep the system from being gamed. |

Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
107
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 18:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
Barakach wrote:Characters are disposable, so characters cannot be punished. Accounts cannot be punished because those are also disposable.
Without a way to punish, there is no hope of a real bank. There needs to be a way to tie debt to a real person, not characters and accounts.
The only other way is to require some sort of collateral, but this method would need to be well thought out to keep the system from being gamed.
There's no direct way of punishing anybody in EVE. But that doesn't there is no punishment to be had. Let's use Super transfer as an example. There is no way direct way to punish a scamming 3rd party, yet that business is clearly very much alive and on it's feet as you can see from the 3-4 active 3rd parties that deal in that field. There is risk in every aspect but sometimes a little trust can really go a long way. If Chribba had scammed the frist or second super transfer he had done he could have made a nice chunk of change off those 1-2 deals before people caught on. But think about how much money he has made by being legitimate. He'd have punished himself by making a run, instead of being legitimate.
After a certain level of trust especially in EVE, there isn't much point in scamming, as being legitimate is so much more profitable. Even in rl there are many entities that can't really be punished directly. But make it worthwhile with the proper tools and you will find yourself with a group short term scams but come out with with a few long term real solutions and businesses.
Just my opinion ofc, feel free to troll me into oblivion.
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Myriad Blaze
15
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Posted - 2012.11.19 19:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
Grendell wrote: After a certain level of trust especially in EVE, there isn't much point in scamming, as being legitimate is so much more profitable.
Well said. I wish I would be able to grow into such a position of trust one day. I'm probably to low-key, though. |

Mr Pragmatic
76
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Posted - 2012.11.19 20:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
Grendell wrote:Myriad Blaze wrote:For several reasons I think it wouldn't be that simple. 1. The bank in my suggestion can only lend out money it got from players. ISK is not created, just redistributed - it should be obvious why this is very important (actually you'll find a possible exception to this rule towards the end of my suggestion). 2. The formula to determine the value of the item you want to use as collateral was meant as an example. I would expect something more sophisticated if such a system goes life (like taking into account price spikes, trading volume, volatility). But even this very simple approach uses the lower value from current value and median value over the last 3 months. Sure, it's possible to manipulate the market even on a 3 month scale. But with an item that's traded by many it will cost you a LOT of ISK. Add to this the fact that you only get 70% of the items value (in my example) and it gets even harder. 3. If you remove money from the bank you'll affect the banks operational numbers. In my suggestion I mentioned the total amount of loans and deposits. Even if we assume that we forgot to implement safeguards, like increasing interest rates when the total loans/total deposits ratio shifts in an undesirable direction or like a stop of lending out ISK when a certain threshold is reached you still risk to crash the bank, losing access to your collateral items before you even closed the difference between the reduced value and the actual value. I'm not saying that it would be impossible to abuse such a system. But at least it wouldn't be easy. (Besides, I'm just saying such a system could work. I'm not saying that we really need NPC banks.) I don't think the questions was IF an npc bank could work, as that's really not a difficult task. It's having some improvements made to the tools available for players to properly run a bank on their own. Sinks and faucets aside, an NPC bank would be a negative thing for a sanbox game like we currently have. CCP are in constant development to reduce the input of NPC and AI and actively trying to let the players run the "system". They do so by removing npc goods, and adding tools to allow players to create new businesses and services.
I wish they would make more tools for corporations. And there is alot of good ideas in this thread. Hopefully CCP takes some. And call it their own.
Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -Aldous Huxley
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