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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1762
   |
Posted - 2012.11.17 14:41:00 -
[91] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Mara Pahrdi wrote:Though in this case you would have to limit force projection fom null into low somehow. Otherwise the strongest will mostly be null entities with lowsec affiliates. I doubt, that this is what many lowsec inhabitants have in mind, when they talk of improving lowsec. So people in null sec would come to low sec to mine? Why wouldn't they just mine in null sec?
We, too, would love to hotdrop titans on mining ops.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
18
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 15:26:00 -
[92] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arduemont wrote: Also, more miners in low will mean more ship losses, which means a greater demand on minerals aswell... so that might even counterbalance the change completely. except if people are losing ships, they won't mine there as the cost of replacing ships will outweigh the profits of higher yield ores. I said in the same post that not many people would go out to low for exactly that reason. You dont need to quote me to tell me what I've already said. Bit of a waste. psycho freak wrote:my thoughts are as valid as anyone in this game m8 Don't flatter yourself. They really aren't. psycho freak wrote:ppl talk about changeing my ingame home to suit them It may be your home, but it's my home as well. I'm not some carebear, I just happen not to suffer from the prejudices you do. Anyone without prejudices' opinion is worth more than someone with. You only prove my point by instantly presuming I live in highsec.
Lol quote a few lines instead my whole statement you are full of yourself aint you lol
for your info every paying costomer veiws are valid wether you agree or not
all im saying is we dont want them in our back yard becouse theyer track record of whineing to ccp to get game changed in theyer fabour
just the same as they wouldnt wont us in theyer bavk yard as we try to kill them
yes i may be biased its based on carebares i known in game and seeing they countless whines and asking ccp to change game oO look another carebare whine thread in GD about hisec bumping lmfao and you want these types in losec lol |
WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 16:10:00 -
[93] - Quote
--warning-- nerd alert!! I keep records.
I've gotten tired of people posting their ideas based on numbers pulled from the air, or god knows where. So, I give you the HARD NUMBERS of what I've mined in the last 6 months. This is not bragging, as I am by no means the biggest miner I know; and I doubt they are even the biggest in the game. I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites. I tend to skip the spodumain more now than I did before, since I can maintain more belts and cycle less often, so that number should be a bit lower in the future.
I am certain someone is going to see this and say "omfg, this nullbear made 84 billion isk and he's complaining!?!?!" 84 at today's prices, it was really about 78 total along the way. More important, I have zero complaints about my isk. I (as are others in this thread) am pointing out the flaws in the process of what happens to the minerals in between the belts and the battlefield in the form of ships. Requiring null industry to do "mineral compression", with building, shipping and refining trash t1 modules, is asinine when these minerals could simply be sitting there in the belts that we own.
This brings me to one point from this thread that I would like to counter
Emma Royd wrote:
So....
Veldspar isn't in nullsec?
Ark is 37.5% trit
Crok is 25% trit
Ochre is 25% trit
Spod is 85% trit
Hem is 39.8% trit
There is plenty of trit in nullsec, just that miners naturally want the highest pay day for what they're mining rather than what is needed in the area.
Your numbers show a very simplistic view of ore and minerals. By looking at them, every miner would be flocking to the spod roids since it has all that trit, pyerite AND megacyte too!! And do you think people skip over the arkonor? The problem with your list is that the ore's volumes skew those numbers all over the place. The better way to look at it is what minerals come from the same volume of different ores, which of course leads to celeste's page. This shows why you are 100% insane if you mine spodumain for anything other than cycling the belt. The trade off for that 85% trit is that the overall mineral yield from the ore is peanuts.
Out of curiosity, I changed the 1708 spod block number to 9800 ( the approximate number of spod blocks I would have mined if I had cleared every belt, based on the amount of bistot mined) This increased the overall ore volume by 52%, which means I would have mined 573 hours instead the 377 which I actually did. The extra 52% would have increased my trit supply by 30%, Pyerite by 13.5% and megacyte by 63.8%. Now, I hear you screaming those numbers back at me in disbelief. But, that is with no increase in other minerals, and the overall effect of 52% more time would give only a 16.3% increase in isk (the evil common denominator). I like mining, yes you read that right, I like mining, but nobody is stupid enough to overlook the downsides of mining spod.
Compare these numbers, even fully clearing the belts, with minerals required to build ships and ammo. You can not miss the glaring differences.
I did spend some time talking with ccp veritas, at eve vegas about mining. He said he is/soon will be working on making mining less predictable and more fun. But wouldn't give any details. I asked him about his thoughts on ore and mineral balances. His cryptic response was that it would be part of his work. I really wish he would talk more about it and set us at ease on the whole issue, even if he leaves out the timetable.
TLDR
ships that we use and lose in null, need not be mined all over new eden, minerals sourced in jita, built in low sec, and shipped back to us in null. I have the mining ships, I have the BPOs, let me build them in a reasonable way without needing jump freighter trips for absurd amounts of extra or left over stuff.
...i should start skipping the gneiss too |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1765
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 16:16:00 -
[94] - Quote
WilliamMays wrote: I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites.
People don't seem aware of how mining in nullsec works.
They just imagine there's all this veldspar or stuff about in belts and we can pick whichever.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
R O G U E
653
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 17:22:00 -
[95] - Quote
This shows exactly what's in null sec grav sites (bit outdated with isk values and was written before the barge buff).
if you look at the most lucrative site, over 50% of that site is ABC ores alone.
conversely, there's 0% plaig, pyrox, and veld. as the large asteroid belt is pretty much just repeatedly mined and flipped, that means generally speaking null sec isn't mining plaig pyrox and veld. coincidentally those 3 ores are pretty much all i bother to mine in empire space right now. they produce a hell of a lot of trit/pyerite/mexallon and a token amount of nocxium.
Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
131
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 07:29:00 -
[96] - Quote
Granted my figures were a rather simplistic view of ore breakdown, but to counter what people were saying about there's not enough trit in nullsec.
I've not mined in nullsec for a while, and appreciate that some ores are region specific, but surely Veld is available everywhere, giving the best source of tritanium going.
Plus with fewer miners in nullsec, the roids will be bigger thus easier to mine, I dusted off my mining ships the other day in empire, 4 skiffs and an orca, and stripped clean 3 belts and was getting well hacked off with "The Asteroid is Depleted"
But who says nullsec is meant to be easy anyway?, with the best sources of Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite, Nocxium (depending on if you've got Hemorphite) plus the ability to compress ores with a rorqual, and a rorqual gives better bonus than an orca.
Just that nullsec miners naturally cherry pick where possible, why mine lower value ores when you can mine higher value ores. |
Max Doobie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 08:00:00 -
[97] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Devon Krah'tor wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:What would the impact of higher yield ores be? Not much.
To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost yields in lowsec. All this will mean is that you mine the same stuff to make the same ISK from hauling more minerals around. As you boost yields, all that happens is that you boost supply. If you boost supply, the value of the product goes down. This is basic economic theory.
To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost supply of anything.
To make stuff in lowsec more valuable, you would thus need to do what? why increase demand naturally. However that is for pilots to take care of, not CCP. I am simply saying that a boost to mining efficiency would draw more indus to the *potential market in lowsec since it could now compete with the strip mining practices of hisec. Not as well as moving all ores and ices but veldspar to low/null.
Nope.
They don't want to PVP.
They are in Highsec for a reason.
Move it all to Low/Null and you're forcing them to PVP. They will quit.
Miners quit, prices will go up and people will ***** about supply (because you PvPers don't want to mine).
Won't work. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
1768
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 08:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Max Doobie wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Devon Krah'tor wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:What would the impact of higher yield ores be? Not much.
To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost yields in lowsec. All this will mean is that you mine the same stuff to make the same ISK from hauling more minerals around. As you boost yields, all that happens is that you boost supply. If you boost supply, the value of the product goes down. This is basic economic theory.
To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost supply of anything.
To make stuff in lowsec more valuable, you would thus need to do what? why increase demand naturally. However that is for pilots to take care of, not CCP. I am simply saying that a boost to mining efficiency would draw more indus to the *potential market in lowsec since it could now compete with the strip mining practices of hisec. Not as well as moving all ores and ices but veldspar to low/null. Nope. They don't want to PVP. They are in Highsec for a reason. Move it all to Low/Null and you're forcing them to PVP. They will quit. Miners quit, prices will go up and people will ***** about supply (because you PvPers don't want to mine). Won't work.
When we lose all the easy-mode miners and prices go up as predicted, the demand will justify riskier mining.
A whole new crop of HTFU miners, which we like the sound of, will replace the easy-mode zombies.
How is this bad again?
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
135
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 08:07:00 -
[99] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:WilliamMays wrote: I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites. People don't seem aware of how mining in nullsec works. They just imagine there's all this veldspar or stuff about in belts and we can pick whichever.
Basically what you are saying is that out of 9000+ people in your alliance you can't find a 100 of them to go out and strip a system clean for your manufacturing side. If that was true it is pretty sad. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
1768
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 08:14:00 -
[100] - Quote
Schalac wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:WilliamMays wrote: I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites. People don't seem aware of how mining in nullsec works. They just imagine there's all this veldspar or stuff about in belts and we can pick whichever. Basically what you are saying is that out of 9000+ people in your alliance you can't find a 100 of them to go out and strip a system clean for your manufacturing side. If that was true it is pretty sad.
With there being 24 timezones in the world and many players having actual lives, you'd be surprised how hard it would be to get 100 null-sec miners together at once in any alliance.
At least that's been my experience so far. Maybe there's some secret Industry V system where zombies farm that I don't know about. 
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
135
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 08:43:00 -
[101] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Schalac wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:WilliamMays wrote: I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites. People don't seem aware of how mining in nullsec works. They just imagine there's all this veldspar or stuff about in belts and we can pick whichever. Basically what you are saying is that out of 9000+ people in your alliance you can't find a 100 of them to go out and strip a system clean for your manufacturing side. If that was true it is pretty sad. With there being 24 timezones in the world and many players having actual lives, you'd be surprised how hard it would be to get 100 null-sec miners together at once in any alliance. At least that's been my experience so far. Maybe there's some secret Industry V system where zombies farm that I don't know about.
Why do you have to be a zombie to farm? Oh yea that's right, because null sec is all about blowing other people up and miners and industrialists are weak ass carebears that don't matter to the game. You ever think that mentality is the reason null industry is so dismal? |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
1768
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 08:45:00 -
[102] - Quote
Schalac wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Schalac wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:WilliamMays wrote: I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites. People don't seem aware of how mining in nullsec works. They just imagine there's all this veldspar or stuff about in belts and we can pick whichever. Basically what you are saying is that out of 9000+ people in your alliance you can't find a 100 of them to go out and strip a system clean for your manufacturing side. If that was true it is pretty sad. With there being 24 timezones in the world and many players having actual lives, you'd be surprised how hard it would be to get 100 null-sec miners together at once in any alliance. At least that's been my experience so far. Maybe there's some secret Industry V system where zombies farm that I don't know about. Why do you have to be a zombie to farm? Oh yea that's right, because null sec is all about blowing other people up and miners and industrialists are weak ass carebears that don't matter to the game. You ever think that mentality is the reason null industry is so dismal?
It's a reference to the mythical Indy V Goon zombie system.
Sorry that went over your nugget.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
R O G U E
655
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 11:09:00 -
[103] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:secret Industry V system where zombies farm that I don't know about.
nobody with half a brain has an indy V system. you have multiple indy 3-4 systems. less likely to attract afk cloaky types and just as lucrative. as my link earlier showed the large grav sites are the most profitable (or were when it was published and is still probably true now) therefore repeatedly flipping large sites in indy 3+ systems is the way to do it, in addition if you have multiple of these set up an afk cloaky can only camp one at a time.
Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
1773
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 19:42:00 -
[104] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:secret Industry V system where zombies farm that I don't know about. nobody with half a brain has an indy V system. you have multiple indy 3-4 systems. less likely to attract afk cloaky types and just as lucrative. as my link earlier showed the large grav sites are the most profitable (or were when it was published and is still probably true now) therefore repeatedly flipping large sites in indy 3+ systems is the way to do it, in addition if you have multiple of these set up an afk cloaky can only camp one at a time.
Mythical. Indy V. Zombie. Systems.
See also: the post directly above yours.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
18
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 20:31:00 -
[105] - Quote
reason why low sec has little indy;
You try staying in there for more then 1hour without a missile being tossed at you!
he need security to mine in low and if you have that you might as well be in null!
Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Zombie Ninja Space Bears
72
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:10:00 -
[106] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Quote:nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals.
one of the problems of industry in 00 is the LACK of tritanium... please do your homework before posting here This. More Tritanium in null please.
This could be done by increasing the frequency of hauler spawns (or increasing their output of low-end minerals)
I agree with the following assessment of the Mining Barge Buff and as a reformed "Greed-fit", High-sec AFK miner, I think that is saying something. -áMining Barge buff: CCP has acknowledged that miners in general are too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1779
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:13:00 -
[107] - Quote
Alaekessa wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Quote:nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals. one of the problems of industry in 00 is the LACK of tritanium... please do your homework before posting here This. More Tritanium in null please. This could be done by increasing the frequency of hauler spawns (or increasing their output of low-end minerals)
The funny thing is that newbies, the most likely to be ratting in belts (....) aren't going to be able to move a massive hauler spawn of trit. But don't worry, everyone around will help out.
Not sure about other people's newbies though. Maybe they have to make a ton of trips in a T1 hauler.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
949
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:30:00 -
[108] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Rek Seven wrote:would they though?
SOME industrialist would make the more and they would probable get into pvp as a result. These are the people we need in low sec. Let all the afk miners stay in high sec mining veldspar if that's what they want to do.
because it costs more to replace ships than you're earning from mining, is why. 3 of of the 5 most lucrative non-mercoxit ores are low sec ores. yet very few people are mining in low sec. what does that tell you?
Tells me compression and JF's mechanics are bad for miners and those zones. Tells me also WH mining is extremely profitable with limited controllable risk, even mining in high sec is more risky and less profitable.
Solution 1: start bumping WH miners
Ho wait...
Solution 2: wardec WH corps
Ho wait...
Solution 3: well it must be at least as bad as 1 and 2 
brb |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Zombie Ninja Space Bears
72
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 02:25:00 -
[109] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Alaekessa wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Quote:nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals. one of the problems of industry in 00 is the LACK of tritanium... please do your homework before posting here This. More Tritanium in null please. This could be done by increasing the frequency of hauler spawns (or increasing their output of low-end minerals) The funny thing is that newbies, the most likely to be ratting in belts (....) aren't going to be able to move a massive hauler spawn of trit. But don't worry, everyone around will help out. Not sure about other people's newbies though. Maybe they have to make a ton of trips in a T1 hauler.
You have a good point, though if they don't have friends/alliance mates that can help them out, WTF are they doing in 0.0?
I agree with the following assessment of the Mining Barge Buff and as a reformed "Greed-fit", High-sec AFK miner, I think that is saying something. -áMining Barge buff: CCP has acknowledged that miners in general are too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Zombie Ninja Space Bears
72
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 02:27:00 -
[110] - Quote
Melvin Coulter wrote:reason why low sec has little indy;
You try staying in there for more then 1hour without a missile being tossed at you!
you need dome form of security to mine in low and if you have that you might as well be in null!
Or you need a really good diplomat.
No actually, you don't, I've done more than my fair share of mining in low-sec and I only rarely had combat support around.
I think what you meant to say was "You can't half-AFK/AFK mine in low-sec"
I agree with the following assessment of the Mining Barge Buff and as a reformed "Greed-fit", High-sec AFK miner, I think that is saying something. -áMining Barge buff: CCP has acknowledged that miners in general are too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1781
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 02:34:00 -
[111] - Quote
Alaekessa wrote:I think what you meant to say was "You can't half-AFK/AFK mine in low-sec"
Not in New Order territories either, well if anyone notices you anyway ..
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Karrl Tian
Yarrbusters
40
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 02:45:00 -
[112] - Quote
psycho freak wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:psycho freak wrote:Dont realy want indy types in losec they have hisec and 0.0 to mine and whine
why would we want a bunch whineing indys in losec just so they can cry on forums about beeing killed and whine so much ccp mess around with losec and wreck it for the guys who have learnt to live there by trial and error nurf hisec yeild by all means but leave losec as it is a free for all fight club For starters I'm gonna go with targets.  targets indys would just be ganks dont get me wrong i like to gank someone as much as the next guy but its the fights that we we like more a few indy ganks wouldnt make up for the sea of whineing theyd do on the forums untill ccp change it to suite them fu#k the indy in losec let them burn
Inb4 local whining. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1783
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 02:47:00 -
[113] - Quote
Alaekessa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Alaekessa wrote:
This could be done by increasing the frequency of hauler spawns (or increasing their output of low-end minerals)
The funny thing is that newbies, the most likely to be ratting in belts (....) aren't going to be able to move a massive hauler spawn of trit. But don't worry, everyone around will help out. Not sure about other people's newbies though. Maybe they have to make a ton of trips in a T1 hauler. You have a good point, though if they don't have friends/alliance mates that can help them out, WTF are they doing in 0.0?
Joke about other people not having newbies. It was ineffective.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Beekeeper Bob
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
295
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 04:11:00 -
[114] - Quote
No matter how epic you make the Veldspar, it will still be lowsec, and miners will still be miners....
"Paranoia is the number one killer of idiots and Republicans." |
Smiknight
The Plebian Republic
34
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 04:27:00 -
[115] - Quote
As someone who enjoys the field of astronomy and stellar composition, making the content of asteroids based on a number indicating anything but what the star formed from really makes me grind my teeth. Violently. 
It is disheartening to see a game once steeped in cerebral thought and innovative thinking become so homogenized by entitlement and malaise; that indidviduals should instill a theme park existence through a lack of desire to overcome any and all obstacles and instead demand things be made easier for them via nerfs. |
Aramatheia
European Nuthouse
58
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 05:01:00 -
[116] - Quote
I mine in highsec, i have a couple of ships and orca support but i do not AFK mine, i take precautions, i tank my ships and what not. I get kind of irked everytime i hear that high sec miners are just afks and botters.
While i dont deny the fact there are AFKers and botters in highsec, theres legit players too. Players who fly in a space which doesnt permit them to engage neutrals on sight, who have to play defensively on the backfoot the entire time they are in space. The only real difference between high and low/null mining is the person blowing up your highsec barge doesnt get any loot (normally unless they find a bot/afker)).
Why am i saying this? because i put in a ton more effort than some lamer botscum or the dude afking in his mackinaw. And for that i dont want my productivity killed. I have enough danger, if someone wanted to smartbomb my mining operation they could and theres extremely little i can do to prevent them. |
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