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Devon Krah'tor Magis.Erudire.Ratus.Knoen 21	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:21:00 - [1] - Quote Simple idea worth considering: add higher quality ores, proportional to sec status (I'm looking specifically at lowsec as its underpopulated in terms of Indys atm. for example Awesomesauce Veldspar +15%, Epic Veldspar +20% etc.. This would help to make it worth the while of mining in lowsec which presents many challenges to a miner, without offering a sufficient rewards. The idea being to improve a miners efficiency to compete with, even exceed what is possible by AFK mining in hisec. Lets face it, miners are not going to mine somewhere that is dangerous for less profit. because thats stupid. ok and optionally reduce the ore quality in hisec (this is all for balance, you'll get the exact same result if you buff everything but hisec, just with less crying. so now we have a growing community of indys and miners in dangerous space (because its now actually worth it) AFK mining is less profitable (good) would be a step towards increasing the value of null ores, as the supply of low ends would increase. discuss/flame away Greater.Insight.Skill.Knowledge
Zero Audier Anglo Dark Incorporated 9	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:25:00 - [2] - Quote You would think it's a great idea, but for some reason, I always see it showdown when it pops up.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2070	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:37:00 - [3] - Quote What would the impact of higher yield ores be? Not much. To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost yields in lowsec. All this will mean is that you mine the same stuff to make the same ISK from hauling more minerals around. As you boost yields, all that happens is that you boost supply. If you boost supply, the value of the product goes down. This is basic economic theory. To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost supply of anything. To make stuff in lowsec more valuable, you would thus need to do what? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Silk daShocka Greasy Hair Club 111	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:37:00 - [4] - Quote Mining in low sec won't be worth it unless a massive change was made. Even if low was good enough that your profit after paying for a fleet to secure your mining op was higher than hi sec profits, you would then have to balance out null ores since apparently it's important for people to mine there too. It's quite likely than unless low-sec was greatly better that null sec mining wise that people would just go mine in null instead of low.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1723	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:41:00 - [5] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: What would the impact of higher yield ores be? Not much. To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost yields in lowsec. All this will mean is that you mine the same stuff to make the same ISK from hauling more minerals around. As you boost yields, all that happens is that you boost supply. If you boost supply, the value of the product goes down. This is basic economic theory. To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost supply of anything. To make stuff in lowsec more valuable, you would thus need to do what? I love you. Well maybe not you, but your grasp of economic theory. As it pertains to Eve Online, that is. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Devon Krah'tor Magis.Erudire.Ratus.Knoen 21	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:47:00 - [6] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: What would the impact of higher yield ores be? Not much. To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost yields in lowsec. All this will mean is that you mine the same stuff to make the same ISK from hauling more minerals around. As you boost yields, all that happens is that you boost supply. If you boost supply, the value of the product goes down. This is basic economic theory. To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost supply of anything. To make stuff in lowsec more valuable, you would thus need to do what? why increase demand naturally. However that is for pilots to take care of, not CCP. I am simply saying that a boost to mining efficiency would draw more indus to the *potential market in lowsec since it could now compete with the strip mining practices of hisec. Greater.Insight.Skill.Knowledge
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1724	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:48:00 - [7] - Quote Devon Krah'tor wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: What would the impact of higher yield ores be? Not much. To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost yields in lowsec. All this will mean is that you mine the same stuff to make the same ISK from hauling more minerals around. As you boost yields, all that happens is that you boost supply. If you boost supply, the value of the product goes down. This is basic economic theory. To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost supply of anything. To make stuff in lowsec more valuable, you would thus need to do what? why increase demand naturally. However that is for pilots to take care of, not CCP. I am simply saying that a boost to mining efficiency would draw more indus to the *potential market in lowsec since it could now compete with the strip mining practices of hisec. Not as well as moving all ores and ices but veldspar to low/null. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2070	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:49:00 - [8] - Quote My opinion is that a few simple changes to ore refining output would make a huge change to lowsec. First: replace the 11 units of Nocxium from a refining batch of Pyroxeres with a few hundred Pyerite. Hisec needs more Pyerite and less Nocxium. Second: replace the Zydrine in Jaspet, Hedbergite and Hemorphite with isogen and/or Mexallon Third: Replace the tritanium in Spodumain with Pyerite, Nocxium, Zydrine This would result in mineral supplies that are more clearly delineated by the availability of ores by security status. There would still be Nocxium available in hisec through grav sites (Jaspet, Hemorphite, Hedbergite do appear in hisec grav sites), and there would be incentive to head to lowsec to harvest valuable minerals. In addition there would be a boost to nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals. To increase the value of an activity, you really need to make the items produced through that activity more valuable. To do that, you need to restrict supply. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2070	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:51:00 - [9] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Not as well as moving all ores and ices but veldspar to low/null. Spoken like a true Nullsec Zealot. Sadly, moving all the interesting stuff to nullsec will kill the entire game, including nullsec. edit: a few little tweaks are all that is needed to drastically alter the face of mining. There is more that needs to be done to enhance nullsec industry, but the greatest bane to nullsec industry is nullsec pilots. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke 410	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:53:00 - [10] - Quote the only fix that is needed in the ore department is adding loads of tritanium to spodumain remove the horror of spodzilla please
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke 410	Posted - 2012.11.17 02:55:00 - [11] - Quote Quote: nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals. one of the problems of industry in 00 is the LACK of tritanium... please do your homework before posting here
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1724	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:14:00 - [12] - Quote Gilbaron wrote: Quote: nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals. one of the problems of industry in 00 is the LACK of tritanium... please do your homework before posting here This. More Tritanium in null please. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 368	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:17:00 - [13] - Quote Gilbaron wrote: Quote: nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals. one of the problems of industry in 00 is the LACK of tritanium... please do your homework before posting here Is the idea of exporting high ends while importing low ends not viable? I would have thought that it would lead to greater gain than trying to gather trit locally.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1725	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:21:00 - [14] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Gilbaron wrote: Quote: nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals. one of the problems of industry in 00 is the LACK of tritanium... please do your homework before posting here Is the idea of exporting high ends while importing low ends not viable? I would have thought that it would lead to greater gain than trying to gather trit locally. Fuel costs make this much harder than it looks to operate like this. Everything winds up costing a fortune because of handling. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 368	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:30:00 - [15] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Fuel costs make this much harder than it looks to operate like this. Everything winds up costing a fortune because of handling. Edit: And ridiculous research/building conditions. Makes sense, though I wonder if making that viable is something worth working toward. On another note, is there not enough veld to fulfill the needs there? Or is it more of a processing capacity issue? Going back to earlier comments would just buffing trit content in spodumain really be a good solution?
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke 412	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:34:00 - [16] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Gilbaron wrote: Quote: nullsec industry since they wouldn't have to cope with mountains of tritanium when they're just trying to collect higher end minerals. one of the problems of industry in 00 is the LACK of tritanium... please do your homework before posting here Is the idea of exporting high ends while importing low ends not viable? I would have thought that it would lead to greater gain than trying to gather trit locally. it currently works this way: Ressource Gathering: highend minerals are gathered in 00 and to some degree in low and whs (but only since drone poo got nerfed), then a HUGE part of them is exported to highsec, where they are sold same with moon minerals, most come from 00, some are then processed and after that, sold in highsec. lowends are gathered mainly in highsec, where they are sold Actual Production: 90++% of all production is run in highsec and lowsec systems very close to highsec, ressources from all over new eden are used here products are then getting transported to one of the major tradehubs where they are sold and transported to wherever they are needed the remaining 10% are supercap, and to some degree capital production. in order to get the required HUGE amounts of lowend minerals to 00, they need to be compressed (building for example 425mm railguns). these railguns are then jumped out to a perfect refinery station in 00, then refined and freightered over to a CSAA, where the supercaps are build some reasons for the whole mess: - lack of manufacturing slots in 00 - terrible corp role design - lack of stations that can offer both, a good refinery and a sufficient amount of production slots in the same place in 00 - lack of (mainly) tritanium in 00 - huge amount of cheap production slots in stations with great refineries in highsec building a battleship in 00 space is - more expensive - more work - riskier than building one in highsec
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2071	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:34:00 - [17] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Makes sense, though I wonder if making that viable is something worth working toward. No, it's not. If nullsec becomes self-sufficient for T1 industry, hisec and lowsec will die. Once that happens, the only people left in nullsec will be the ones with the industrial muscle in place to build their own fleets from scratch. That means nullsec will die too. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 368	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:37:00 - [18] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Makes sense, though I wonder if making that viable is something worth working toward. No, it's not. If nullsec becomes self-sufficient for T1 industry, hisec and lowsec will die. Once that happens, the only people left in nullsec will be the ones with the industrial muscle in place to build their own fleets from scratch. That means nullsec will die too. I wasn't referring to total self sufficiency so much as more feasable interplay to the point where the attitude of "why mine for trit when I can mine 'x' and sell it to highsec and get more trit than I could get locally" is considered the "right" train of thought. Edit: Sounds like it is to a degree from the post before yours. As such I'm a bit confused.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2071	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:41:00 - [19] - Quote Gilbaron wrote: the remaining 10% are supercap, and to some degree capital production. in order to get the required HUGE amounts of lowend minerals to 00, they need to be compressed (building for example 425mm railguns). these railguns are then jumped out to a perfect refinery station in 00, then refined and freightered over to a CSAA, where the supercaps are build some reasons for the whole mess: - lack of manufacturing slots in 00 - terrible corp role design - lack of stations that can offer both, a good refinery and a sufficient amount of production slots in the same place in 00 - lack of (mainly) tritanium in 00 - huge amount of cheap production slots in stations with great refineries in highsec Switching to a "farms and fields" design where industry is moved from mammoth NPC stations to player owned starbases will address both the lack of good stations in nullsec and the surfeit of good stations in hisec. If you need better refining, you build it. If you need better manufacturing capacity, you build it. Having the NPCs put up the prices of their lines, having NPC refineries become costlier and less efficient (in terms of yield and time consumed), and allowing perfect refining at high end refineries in player owned stations, will reshape industry all over New Eden: this is before addressing the bizarre nature of corp roles :) When this happens, the supply of tritanium in nullsec must be necessarily reduced otherwise the rest of the economy will die. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke 412	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:43:00 - [20] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Makes sense, though I wonder if making that viable is something worth working toward. No, it's not. If nullsec becomes self-sufficient for T1 industry, hisec and lowsec will die. Once that happens, the only people left in nullsec will be the ones with the industrial muscle in place to build their own fleets from scratch. That means nullsec will die too. a HUGE part of industry is already done by nullsec players who would love to do it in nullsec, but won't, because it's such a pain in the ass. maybe not mining, but definitely production
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1731	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:46:00 - [21] - Quote Gilbaron wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Makes sense, though I wonder if making that viable is something worth working toward. No, it's not. If nullsec becomes self-sufficient for T1 industry, hisec and lowsec will die. Once that happens, the only people left in nullsec will be the ones with the industrial muscle in place to build their own fleets from scratch. That means nullsec will die too. a HUGE part of industry is already done by nullsec players who would love to do it in nullsec, but won't, because it's such a pain in the ass. maybe not mining, but definitely production In some cases they literally can't do the same production in null. It has nothing to do with pain in the ass. It has to do with scarcity of production facilities. Not every grunt can anchor a POS. That's a hard fact of Eve's game mechanics, unfortunately. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2071	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:46:00 - [22] - Quote Gilbaron wrote: a HUGE part of industry is already done by nullsec players who would love to do it in nullsec, but won't, because it's such a pain in the ass. maybe not mining, but definitely production Well, it's an academic discussion at this point since we have no idea what CCP's plans with POSes and NPC stations are (yet). FWIW: I lived in nullsec and tried to do manufacturing & marketing there. The coaliation kept issuing dictums along the lines of "you must sell within 10% of Jita prices" which meant that production costs could not be met. Then there was the blue-on-blue trouble from people who didn't feel that mining fleets had a place in null sec. Then there was the pressure to attend CTAs, with mining ships getting KoS when CTAs were announced (despite mining characters not being able to fly combat ships). There is more than enough capacity to manufacture simply using assembly lines in POSes: it gets expensive but you can do it if you are allowed to charge reasonable prices for the products you manufacture. The greatest impediment to industry in nullsec is not nullsec, it is the people who live there. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Silk daShocka Greasy Hair Club 111	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:52:00 - [23] - Quote Gilbaron wrote: a HUGE part of industry is already done by nullsec players Got a source on that? Or perhaps some supporting evidence?
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2071	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:53:00 - [24] - Quote Silk daShocka wrote: Gilbaron wrote: a HUGE part of industry is already done by nullsec players Got a source on that? Or perhaps some supporting evidence? I'm sure he knows at least three people who have massive spreadsheets and talk about industry all the time :) Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1731	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:54:00 - [25] - Quote Silk daShocka wrote: Gilbaron wrote: a HUGE part of industry is already done by nullsec players Got a source on that? Or perhaps some supporting evidence? Most production is done in high-sec. Many null-zealots have an indy alt. You can do the math all you want I guess. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Silk daShocka Greasy Hair Club 111	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:59:00 - [26] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Silk daShocka wrote: Gilbaron wrote: a HUGE part of industry is already done by nullsec players Got a source on that? Or perhaps some supporting evidence? Most production is done in high-sec. Many null-zealots have an indy alt. You can do the math all you want I guess. Well i'm more or less looking for facts since I see this statement used quite often as a fact really. Many null-zealots may have an indy alt, but I do know many people as well that live solely in high sec and do nothing but manufacture. I"m not looking to argue the statement really, I"m merely looking to see if it is something that has been proven true.
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke 412	Posted - 2012.11.17 03:59:00 - [27] - Quote please tell me more about how your corp happily gave everyone all the necessary rights to start a production from scratch ... oh, and **** those who want a cozy living in 00, but don't want to attend CTAs while at the same time complaining about getting hazed by being expected to sell their products for a reasonable price
Schalac Apocalypse Reign 134	Posted - 2012.11.17 04:02:00 - [28] - Quote The only reason that 0.0 lacks trit is because the people that live there feel that they are above mining it. If you want trit in 0.0 then mine veld or HTFU and jump freighter it in. 0.0 industry isn't lacking because of game design, it's lacking because the people that live there want CCP to give them handouts and make 0.0 even easier than it already is.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1750	Posted - 2012.11.17 04:03:00 - [29] - Quote Schalac wrote: The only reason that 0.0 lacks trit is because the people that live there feel that they are above mining it. If you want trit in 0.0 then mine veld or HTFU and jump freighter it in. 0.0 industry isn't lacking because of game design, it's lacking because the people that live there want CCP to give them handouts and make 0.0 even easier than it already is. Because in nullsec, it's "easy" to mine enough Tritanium giving ores in order to keep alive a supercapital producing blob. No. You can, though, crash the market on highend minerals though Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1732	Posted - 2012.11.17 04:04:00 - [30] - Quote Schalac wrote: The only reason that 0.0 lacks trit is because the people that live there feel that they are above mining it. If you want trit in 0.0 then mine veld or HTFU and jump freighter it in. 0.0 industry isn't lacking because of game design, it's lacking because the people that live there want CCP to give them handouts and make 0.0 even easier than it already is. At the refining rates we get in null, they pretty much are above mining it, to be quite frank. I guess that's the other side of your coin. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

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