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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.04.25 13:47:00 -
[1]
Well, it looks like this new patch has reduced T2 component drops. I've just had a mission 'bonus' that's 150,000 units of carbon polymers.
Which is kind of frustration, as that's a good week's worth out output from the POS I've just set up.
Surely there must be some mistake here? Or do I need to retool for complex reactions?
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Berasus
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Posted - 2005.04.25 14:06:00 -
[2]
yeah i saw that in 'pos funtime', i'm hoping to god it was just a bug and it was supposed to be 15k, otherwise i think ccp people are idiots if they think this is 'helping' the pos industry
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2005.04.25 14:26:00 -
[3]
plain stupid
what was the point of med pos again? easier to just do agents and get more then a med reactor can produce 
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
Doshi Mazir
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Posted - 2005.04.25 14:33:00 -
[4]
wtf!?
If that's going to be a normal bonus for missions, POS owners will still be screwed.
Why can't CCP just stop agents from dropping any t2 building components at all?! Or at least not stupid amounts like this, over a week of *LARGE* POS productivity right in the lap of an agent runner who spent maybe 1 hour doing a mission while also raking in the bounties.
Why would I spent roughly 100m on probes, then 400m on a decent POS with defenses and then roughly 5m a day to keep it running. When a friggin' agent runner can get a week of productivity from shooting rats for an hour and investing 0 isk for it.
I understand the change must be gradual, but this way, the only POS worth setting up is one at a moon with rarity 64 raw minerals. The other moons will be profitable in the future, sure. But when?!
What do you want POS owners to do CCP?
Should I invest in hundreds of giant cans to reserve moons I want to exploit when agents stop giving out wads of free isk? Should I setup smal posses to reserve moons and try to recoup those running costs from the people buying my stuff and present them with the bill?
/me ponders about just throwing all those isk invested in POS's away and start agent running on my own, calling in corp mates when needed to break the tank of that last annoying rat once in a while.
PvE 4tw!
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0ren Ishii
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Posted - 2005.04.25 16:01:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Berasus
...otherwise i think ccp people are idiots if they think this is 'helping' the pos industry
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.04.25 16:27:00 -
[6]
Thanks CCP for fixing the Agents tech II drop. We as POS owners appreciate forcing the Agents to bid to our whimes on pricing now.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Crux Australis
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Posted - 2005.04.25 16:49:00 -
[7]
Agents shouldn't drop -anything- of these things:
1) Raw materials
2) Advanced Materials
3) Complex Materials
4) Finished T2 components
Period.
And... yes, I own POSs.
And... no, I don't have a Promethium moon.
K?
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Ralus
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Posted - 2005.04.25 17:30:00 -
[8]
If agents must drop something connected to the t2 market let it be coolant, robotics, oxygen etc... the trade goods that cannot be mined that should help us rather than make our lives worse as sellers compete and the price of these should drop.
maybe...
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Hermia
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Posted - 2005.04.26 02:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ralus
If agents must drop something connected to the t2 market let it be coolant, robotics, oxygen etc... the trade goods that cannot be mined that should help us rather than make our lives worse as sellers compete and the price of these should drop.
maybe...
Exactly !!!
why is it the other way around CCP, no sence there 
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Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2005.04.26 08:29:00 -
[10]
yeah i just got 34,000 rolled tungstedn allow, and as for the person who made the thread, 150k carbon plymers is more than jsut one week worth, 1 reactor will make 33,600 a week max. so if you can run like 5 reactors at your pos then yeah its a week's worth.
As for the issue of anything involved in this whole process, yes CCP stop messing us around and make it trade good drops that pos's use. What a bunch of crock and as many are quickly finding out, med and small towers are generally pretty useless.
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Dantes Darkheart
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Posted - 2005.04.26 11:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rawne Karrde
yeah i just got 34,000 rolled tungstedn alloy...
AAARRGGGHHHHHH.....Things like this and the 150k carbon poly makes me want to scrap all of our POSs and just have everyone do agent missions.
It's the biggest bunch of B.S. and everyone knows it except those diehard "don't take away my uber rewards" agent runners. You get ALOT for VERY little...
/emote stomps off in a huff, boards his Megathron and sets course for Iceland and CCP's HQ. 
======================================
Deklein Resident/POS Manager/Uber Hauler
"I'm kept warm by my hatred of the POS implementation." |
SPIONKOP
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Posted - 2005.04.26 11:47:00 -
[12]
Edited by: SPIONKOP on 26/04/2005 11:48:00
Edited by: SPIONKOP on 26/04/2005 11:47:39
If agent drops of 150,000 Tech II intermediate itemts are going to be the norm then what is the point of owning a POS.
We can't compete with that sort of crap. May as well go back to the agent rat race.
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Sevanna
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Posted - 2005.04.26 11:57:00 -
[13]
Just a thought here, As far as I know, the T2 components are not anymore drops/rewards right?
this changes the outcome of this discussion a bit, since most are used to this on common basis.
and the only way to build T2 items, is having these components, it's logicall that the pos's should be getting more work without having to mine as much low end ore, and pos owners can get more into the complex reactions right away, right?
Havn't been doing much pos work so im not sure on all basis here.
The base cycle has just been put over to pos owners entierly, so in fact even though agent ppl are getting simple reactions as rewards, it should be more proffitable for pos owner now...
I might be presuming allot, but now the factory ppl can just buy the T2 components from ppl who got them from agents, it "HAS" to come from pos ppl.... right?
*im not expert, so feel free to object ;)*
:: rebell against opression ::
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Helmut 314
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Posted - 2005.04.26 12:47:00 -
[14]
It doesnt matter that much to a POS operator whether missions drop construction components, advanced materials or processed materials, its still competition that makes POS less profitable. Now, if agents dropped isotopes and liquid ozone/heavy water you wouldnt hear any POS operators complain, but that would make the ice miners scream.
CCP needs to get their sticky fingers out of the component chain altogether. Set a date, say six weeks from now, when no tech II production related stuff drops from agents. Tech II would then be a TOTALLY player-controlled market.
Add to that POS allowed in 0.4 for easier last stage processing close to markets and 25% better isotope yields. That would be a major boost and make certain that component prices wouldnt run off too high. 25% more isotopes = 15-20% lower running costs. (rough numbers, dont spank me)
Time to step back, CCP!
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
The Cosmopolite
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Posted - 2005.04.26 13:07:00 -
[15]
*sigh*
Shall we just go back to T2 comp agent drops then and abandon building up a chain of suppliers, manufacturers and consumers?
Look, if you think the POS industry will automagically come into being overnight then fine, argue for no materials to be dropped by any agents.
The trouble is, it doesn't work like that.
Now that agents have stopped dropping comps, more and more people will start to buy, research and use T2 comp BPs to make up the shortfall that will hit us.
Once enough people have got to the point of consuming materials and once enough POSs are up and running producing materials then you can be fairly confident that first complex materials will disappear and then, after a further build-up period I suspect, simple ones too will go.
Turn off the flow overnight and all that will happen will be collapse and ultra-inflation (but of course, that's just what some POS owners want - sorry I can't support that).
I want the POS industry to work - I really do and I'm no 'agent runners must have it all' kind of person... I just think too many people want to run before there is even any place to walk.
Cosmo
The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.04.26 13:16:00 -
[16]
Sevanna is correct.
What everyone needs to remember is to own a POS is not a special thing. There are no special requirements beyond achoring. I think moving agent drops into the POS owners hands is great idea. Remeber I dont think we will can have POS owners supplying the whole Tech II chain. Its not possible. CCP will supply reactions to owners that want to make the advance materials whats the problem there.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.04.26 14:46:00 -
[17]
I agree with Cosmopolite  .
If you get rid of all T2-related agent drops overnight, the market will go mental as the POS capacity just isn't there to supply the demand.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2005.04.26 16:23:00 -
[18]
i disagree with cosmo, having been running pos's since exodus came out its a friggin joke this whole "the market needs this to slowly shift" crap. Point is as long as agents drop parts, there is like ->a<- where a equals the demand for pos produced parts. And with my agent drop today, that would take a pos owner two weeks, and 100 mil in fuel to make, and i did it in just 45 minutes, no fuel and about 300 torps. Then you look at the gentleman who start this thread, the materials he got would take a pos 4.4 weeks to make, and around 200 mil in fuel.. never mind the hauling etc.. and it will take just as long to burn that off. a week of agents dropping stuff like this will mess up the market for another month or more. mean while we're still waiting for atleast a month of no t2 comp drops from agents before t2 builders actually get their stockpiles burned off and need to start buying again.
If you hang out in "pos funtime" channel we are now having a lot of new people and i mean a lot of new peopl setting up towers since that last patch where it was advertised "no more t2 agent comp drops". I can tell you we're already seeing that rush of people taking them down becuase there is no market. Its just a big joke.
CCP, get rid of anything in the chain dropping from agents and make it trade goods that we have to buy from npc's that way there is a player element int he whole thing, and leave the pos goods to those who take on this daunting task of managing, networking and making their pos a success.
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.04.26 20:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
I agree with Cosmopolite .
If you get rid of all T2-related agent drops overnight, the market will go mental as the POS capacity just isn't there to supply the demand.
Well reduce fuel requirement across the board then as we move through this "transitional" period. I view POS owners like the John Rockefellers and Andrew Carnegies' of the Eve Universe, out there taking chances in wild west 0,0 space in many cases. If the gov't didn't support industry as it did in the cases of many of the aforementioned moguls, it is entirely possible that the industrial revolution in America from 1850 to 1950 might have had quite a different flavor and result.
CCP, as our "government", needs to act accordingly and help POS owners through these early days when these structures are economic albatrosses versus assets.
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Helmut 314
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Posted - 2005.04.26 21:27:00 -
[20]
There is one clear reason why I want CCP to set a date when all POS-related materials stop dropping from agents. Look at the activity in this forum section. A week or so before the latest content patch a lot more people were reading and asking questions in this section than in the past 6 weeks or so.
The patch promised that new POS were coming, tech II component drops were being stopped and replaced with other stuff. People who had decided against the uncertain venture of a POS sudenly were interested again and preparations started. Then : oops, the components are still dropping, oops people get a full WEEEKS output of advanced materials in agent bonuses.
Agent bonuses, no matter on what level in the t2 chain they occur are a serious impediment to building a true POS industry. Large oligarchic coops like Naga and Big corps can easily integrate this into their plans. For small and medium operators its very difficult to compete. This is desillusioning and makes people shelve their POS plans or give up existing POS.
Six weeks is long enough time to plan and implement a POS organization and establish the possibility for a viable playerdriven industry. When you have a promise that at a certain date you will only be competing with people who have to suffer the same ordeals as yourself to make a product is when you can start competing. You cant compete with an agent drop.
Right now POS are a PVE thing, setting a date would make them a PVP thing....
( Hey Viceroy, come on, we are talking PVP . Time to get on the bandwagon ! Golden Ratio! )
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
Strikeman
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Posted - 2005.04.27 07:09:00 -
[21]
Let me assure u that implementing POS, keeping T2 component supply running 23/7 and generally having to live with every stupid thing CCP throws at us is not as easy it at looks.
U may speak about easier implementation, but let me remind u that we are a very small corp. We have setup, together with alot of other corps and players, a POS network now expanding over 30, if not 40, POS.
and now they throw this at us
After weeks and weeks of setting up schedules, ~10.000 moonscans, talking to people, buying fuel, etc etc they try to kill us with this. First it was the component drops, going up to a massive 2000+ units. Now, it's this.
CCP wants to make POS and Tech2 an (almost) completely player driven part of the game. We want the exact same thing, now give it to us PLEASE ?!
We know u want to fade it out, we know u're prolly still searching for the right thing to do with the agent rewards. There have been hundreds of (viable) ideas, alternatives etc, and still CCP is able to ignore all of us here.
I'll ask this once again CCP: please stop messing around with this very very important part of the game. If u are going to make it impossible for POS owners to make a decent profit with stable setups, instead of just changing what we react and mine on a weekly f******g basis, then u have to do it now.
There is too much tech2 going on atm to make us change our plans every other patch. Cause that's just plain stupid. And insane. And so much more. Ah, right, and stupid.
--
NAGAmazon webshop
ISK is not your goal. |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2005.04.27 07:41:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Gan Howorth on 27/04/2005 07:41:09
Its a load of crap isnt it?
There alreay is a shortage of certain things, even when agents were dropping finished comps. Can anyone say ferrogel?? I don't see the t2 market breaking because of it. The market simply made ferrogel stuff moe expensive and thus as lm sure all you guys can see supply from pos has now increased to meet it.
Corps have massive stockpiles of finished comps from months of agent drops and pos owners have massive stockpiles of mid-low end moon materials that dont sell because there is no demand.
Helloooo CCP, stop the damn drops. We are all big enough and ugly enough to cope l'm sure. And 5 weeks worth of a borderline profitable material in one agent bonus?? DO YOU EVEN PLAY THIS GAME CCP?
/emote goes to work with a snarl.
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Lord Draco
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Posted - 2005.04.27 07:50:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Lord Draco on 27/04/2005 07:55:53
nice one ccp
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Cracken
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Posted - 2005.04.27 07:58:00 -
[24]
You want some cheese with your huge whine ffs, first you complained that agent runners got tech 2 components fixed we now have too rely on gasp pos owners too make tech components all we get is the mateerials.
Lets see agent nerfs in the last year:
-Good loot nerfed (lots of basic items now)
-Lets see too little risk a bunch of agents were moved too .4>
-Good time bonus rewards nerfed. (wtf am I going too do with 1,000,000 useless reports.)
-Tech 2 components got a smack from the nerf bat we now get materials.
-And now they'll probably go ahead and nerf mission payouts too as ppl are whinging you can make too much money doing them.
FFs why don't I just go back too mining you guys have nothing too whine about the only reason tech 2 modules are affordable and will remain affordable is because of agents drops.
And if the price goes up too much noone other than an idiot buys tech 2 anymore and you'll be up the creek without a paddle.
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Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2005.04.27 08:10:00 -
[25]
*****en the point is simply that with agent drops, owning a pos is a joke for the most part. Only those using them for refinery posts are getting much use out of them. As i've said set one up *****en try to participate in the market place and see how much you whine after 500 mil of your money is now a big giant ass paper weight.
I'm both an agent runner and pos owner and its simply a pile of shiite that in 45 mins i can with only 300 torps produce more than a pos can in two weeks of production. Not to mention the moon scanning, the fuel hauling, the management, the networking for suppliers and buyers... I mean it just doesn't hold water, if they give agent's the trade good products (coolant, enriched uranium, oxygen, mechanical parts, and robotics instead) it will reduce fuel costs and help foster cheaper parts, but its not all that needs to be done CCP needs to wake up.
And honestly unless you won a pos and are trying to participate in this insanely complicated manufacturing network, don't post, you just don't know wtf your talking about.
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Datamax
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Posted - 2005.04.27 08:13:00 -
[26]
Well i must say the changes are dissapointing, surefire way to reduce the number of total pos needed.
i believe CCP should balance the drops. say
100-300 for level 1
500-1000 for level 2
800-2000 for level 3
1000-3000 for level 4
OR. let them keep dropping 200 mill worth of materials. but do us pos owners a favour. and add in equal value bonuses for those not interested in POS materials.
2 units of Raven/megathron/etc
50 units of "random cruiser"
1 heavy assault ship
20 interceptors
45000 units of megacyte
since i really cant see them adding this, we can but hold our breath and hope they realise the size of their blunder and fix it as quickly as possible
I agree on the promethium tho. i believe CCP should random seed some more moons, or all their "player driven market" strategies will fail.
still waiting for my agent to give me promethium related materials. whats the street value of 100k prometium worth these days?? roughly 1 billion?.. hmm can i ask the agent for a raven BPO instead maybe..
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Datamax
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Posted - 2005.04.27 08:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: *****en
FFs why don't I just go back too mining you guys have nothing too whine about the only reason tech 2 modules are affordable and will remain affordable is because of agents drops.
please contact Datamax ingame for a list of available 100% POS produced components. Genco would be happy to supply your component needs CHEAPER than the current market prices.
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2005.04.27 08:21:00 -
[28]
*****en, you don't really appear to understand. Did you really come in here to defend agent running??
Your concern over agent nerfing has nothing whatsoever to do with the POS industry. I dont care if they give you a damn faction ship every time you do a mission. Point is the current rewards screw a whole other section of the game.
The t2 price comment is also irrelevant. T2 stuff expensive because they are near monopolies with demand outstripping supply for most items. What you think they are selling on tight margins or something? There's pleny of profit margin in there for POS provided goods without increasing prices overall.
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Golarion
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Posted - 2005.04.27 08:38:00 -
[29]
I for one doesn't understand why agents have to drop any
*material* associated with Tech2...
How about agents dropping Tech2 1 runs bpc:s instead?
That would increase the demand for all Tech2 materials
and also put more Tech2 items into the game (which I
suppose is the deal after all?)
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Sam Spacey
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Posted - 2005.04.27 09:34:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Sam Spacey on 27/04/2005 09:35:41
Well the bottom line is that POS owners will not be seeing a profit if this goes on. We are hardly even covering cost's here, let alone the amount of work, planning, investment and hauling it takes to set up a couple of POS's.
If you want Tech 2 to be ran by agent rewards then fine, you will see 90% drop in POS's being run by people. Then there will really be a big loss to the game. Just lower the agent rewards in POS items, I don't mean lower the overall rewards from agents (although I still think lvl 4 missions are way too easy), just stop giving out 2 weeks POS work for a 45 min Agent Mission.
People are already not bothering with their POS's anymore. Not all of us are PVP or agent runners, some of us like to build things
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