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Necrologic	Posted - 2005.04.30 06:48:00 - [121] Originally by: Messerschmitt facility I would say that all players that cant even handle to survive in a 1.0 area are just totaly noobs when it comes to roleplay. In this case just go and play warcraft and watch how your little peon is building the uber barack so you can attack that nasty human in the campaign. 9 Months ago when I was mining in 0.5!! I absolutely never had any problems. I mined with my hauler in a 0.4 japset damit and I was fine. Because I knew to adapt. The ones that want to be spoonfead leave this game. CCP will not change the game cause you cant handle in 1.0 (omg, I cant belive people actualy get blown there) And besides that, you should be 3 times happier than us when we were at the beggining. You have barges, you have transports, you have destroyers, and battlecruisers, intermediar steps that we didnt had. We needed to mine the freaking plagicoloase in friate for 3 weeks to get a cruiser that costed 7 millions. And from there to be better we needed to jump directly to the battleship. So instead of forum whoring, and complaining like 2 years babys, go in game and figure out by yourself how can you make profit and be safe, or just leave. I realy wish you the worst deaths, and as many deaths as your whining replys Yarr! I agree! When i was a wee cabin boy i had ta sweep the decks in full storms! An when i wassan on tha sea i had ta walk 10 miles ta school up hill both ways in tha pouring snow! YAR! _______________________________________________________ Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram.
Aitrus	Posted - 2005.04.30 07:41:00 - [122] Edited by: Aitrus on 30/04/2005 07:44:42 Originally by: Arcticblue2 You CCP better fix this before you start loosing players... You do realize this has been the norm since Eve was released, and well, We don't seem to be losing players in droves over it... In fact, the population seems to be increasing... Remember, Nowhere is it stated that any space is completely safe. And if someone has to lose a ship to kill you, it's considered fair. Honestly, I've been a pretty regular miner for a majority of my eve career, and I've NEVER been ganked like this. I just don't think it's as big a problem as you try to paint it. EDIT: Originally by: Some other guy I believe the initial questions were directed to CCP... not you. Then it shouldn't have been asked in a public DISCUSSION forum. Direct inquiries should go to email. It's rather stupid to post something in general and NOT expect everyone to put in their 2 cents.
Koot	Posted - 2005.05.02 10:07:00 - [123] most of you tools are missing the point. you claim its carebears not willing to take any risk. if the pirates were taking a risk too it would be fair, but since they are doing it with alts they are removing all of the risk from themselves. if you are gonna suicide kill a miner then atleast have the balls to do it with your main and not an alt. quit defending people who are too chicken to use their mains with the "its a risk based game" because i dont see any of the griefers taking a risk here, only the miners.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.05.02 10:39:00 - [124] Originally by: Koot most of you tools are missing the point. you claim its carebears not willing to take any risk. if the pirates were taking a risk too it would be fair, but since they are doing it with alts they are removing all of the risk from themselves. if you are gonna suicide kill a miner then atleast have the balls to do it with your main and not an alt. quit defending people who are too chicken to use their mains with the "its a risk based game" because i dont see any of the griefers taking a risk here, only the miners. Chicken and egg argument.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.05.02 11:00:00 - [125] I think it doesn't make sense from a gameplay and roleplay point of view. If you take Yulai as an example. That system is like the White House of Amarr. Do you walk into the White house with an M16? Yeah... stupid RL analogies 4tl I know but hey... games like WoW or MxO actually take such basic rules into account and that's why they have millions of customers while EvE doesn't. Mai's Idealog
Valan	Posted - 2005.05.02 11:25:00 - [126] Edited by: Valan on 02/05/2005 11:26:51 OK its back to risk and reward, which PvPers quote so much. Destroy a large barge and loot 3 strip miner IIs, in a Kestrel, on an alt account. So wheres the risk for around 90 mill loot. The sec does not matter, the ship is peanuts and people cannot carry out any reprisals. Bring in contracts and personal wars for people hiding (carebearing) in NPC corps. Instead of nerfing PvP, step it up a gear so the noobs can get pay back in a kestrel of their own, without the sec hit. Why shouldn't they get a sec hit, because they did not choose a 'pirate' career and are fighting for the good of the empire in which they reside. They are assisting Concord. This would also mean these 'pirate' alts will also be able to hit back without a sec hit. Its already been promised by CCP, time to move it nearer the top of the list.
Jaisan	Posted - 2005.05.02 11:34:00 - [127] Just give mining barges enough shielding/armour to survive a 4 man kessie light missile suicide attack, concord will do the rest. Just too orangey for crows.
Valan	Posted - 2005.05.02 12:42:00 - [128] Originally by: Roshan longshot "oh I might lose my precious security rating" Why should someone whos being agressed suffer the consequences for fighting back. They have chosen a different game path which would be seriously affected by a -sec. Just allow them to fight back. The only guy carebearing here is the no consequence alt whos hiding in a NPC corp. You may have noticed I edited the quote a little.
Eris Discordia	Posted - 2005.05.02 12:44:00 - [129] Please reply constructively from now and keep tempers in check. I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage Mail [email protected] if you have any questions.
Roshan longshot	Posted - 2005.05.02 12:49:00 - [130] Originally by: Valan Originally by: Roshan longshot "oh I might lose my precious security rating" Why should someone whos being agressed suffer the consequences for fighting back. They have chosen a different game path which would be seriously affected by a -sec. Just allow them to fight back. The only guy carebearing here is the no consequence alt whos hiding in a NPC corp. You may have noticed I edited the quote a little. Yeah I was going to fix that...stupid keyboard...too much coffee sprewed over it from these forums... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter,pirate[/i] or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box and from this site.

Valan	Posted - 2005.05.02 13:40:00 - [131] I agree completly that people are free to choose a career, an ore thief can steal or attack haulers in 0.0 as the GMs have said. The problem is the guy who gets nailed in a secure belt now has to go pirate to get his own back and lose his sec rating. (roleplay bit) He has to commit a crime in the eyes of Concord to achieve justice. This is not the role he wants to pursue, however to stop people posting or a nerf. Why not allow personal contracts to address the imbalance. Then the guy that gets nailed can have a go without being Concordokkened. May encourage PvP rather than stifle it. If personal contracts can be used to NPC corps then they can't campaign for a nerf becuase they're perfectly capable of doing something about their problem. No worries about spelling nearly all my posts end up with an edit.
Kingpenn	Posted - 2005.05.02 15:55:00 - [132] SOLUTIONS: Miners and producers/haulers. Stop playing, take all items off the market. Increase all prices 10x or more, reduce buying prices by 100x. wait... When the griefers can't get anything unless they pay out the butt for it, or can't buy anything at all, things will change. ------------------------------------------------------ Another thing you can do is, CLICK THE CANCEL SUB BUTTON on your account. Tell CCP why. Nothing gets their attention more then the loss of income.
PAPA	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:26:00 - [133] Same if all PVPers leave (as is happening) and dont blow crap up WHO YOU gonna sell stuff to? Why would you need it if it isnt destroyed in the first place? no pvpers = mining sim enjoy AND YES I WOULD SHOOT YOU TO
Kooter	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:37:00 - [134] youre still missing the point. they arent attacking the miners...they are looting them after a throw away alt opens the can. have the balls to open it yourself or move along to a softer game.
GoGo Yubari	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:11:00 - [135] Originally by: Tairos Hakonnus If you can't handle losing a few ships, quit Eve and do the rest of us real players a favor. I've lost several hundred mil worth of ships in the past couple weeks and you don't see me here ***ing about how hard a pirate's life is and how none of the evil griefer ship-producers on the trade channel won't sell me another ship. Hmm, yes but the reason we don't hear you complaining is because you leave that to private channels. I present to you an entirely UNDOCTORED and FACTUAL chatlog, which proves just that! > Tairos Hakonnus: "Piracy sucks! It's too hard." > GoGo Yubari: "Have a beer, man." > Tairos Hakonnus: "NO I QUIT." > GoGo Yubari: "C'mon, have a few ISK, it'll help." > Tairos Hakonnus: "Thx GoGo! GoGo is teh coolest!**" There you have it! Ha!
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:05:00 - [136] Edited by: theRaptor on 02/05/2005 18:08:47 Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Yeah... stupid RL analogies 4tl I know but hey... games like WoW or MxO actually take such basic rules into account and that's why they have millions of customers while EvE doesn't. No. WoW and MxO have millions of customers because they are part timer* MMO's with big brand names. You honestly think WoW would have 1/10th of the players it does except for the "Warcraft" tag? EVE is a more hardcore game (show me WoW's player economy) that is much closer to reality then either of those games. If CCP wanted millions of customers they would have made an MMO based on Star Trek or another big brand name. But that requires loads of cash or selling out to a big studio for a decade. CCP like their game. We like their game. You are the odd one out. * Sweet **** all end game and crap PVP. They rely on keeping people playing for only a few months. WoW has a far worse ganking problem then EVE, and noobs are useless for PVE or PVP. In EVE a newb with a few days training can actually be of use in a fleet. --------------------------------------------------
Drummore	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:56:00 - [137] remove concord from the game. remove sentrys from the game. change all 0.1-1.0 systems to 0.0. leave only the starting systems as 1.0 and dont allow players to target other players there. make ppl not able to jump back to the starter systems. theres your PVP game with all ppl in 0.0. and yes ill, give all my stuff to the next guy that posts, if they do any of this.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.05.02 23:05:00 - [138] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 02/05/2005 23:07:48 Originally by: theRaptor Edited by: theRaptor on 02/05/2005 18:08:47 Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Yeah... stupid RL analogies 4tl I know but hey... games like WoW or MxO actually take such basic rules into account and that's why they have millions of customers while EvE doesn't. No. WoW and MxO have millions of customers because they are part timer* MMO's with big brand names. You honestly think WoW would have 1/10th of the players it does except for the "Warcraft" tag? EVE is a more hardcore game (show me WoW's player economy) that is much closer to reality then either of those games. If CCP wanted millions of customers they would have made an MMO based on Star Trek or another big brand name. But that requires loads of cash or selling out to a big studio for a decade. CCP like their game. We like their game. You are the odd one out. * Sweet ** all end game and crap PVP. They rely on keeping people playing for only a few months. WoW has a far worse ganking problem then EVE, and noobs are useless for PVE or PVP. In EVE a newb with a few days training can actually be of use in a fleet. Standard reply. Just like the ones I used to give back then. Look. If it looks like sh.., smells like sh.. and has sh.. printed on it in big brown letters then it's most likely... guess what... *. WoW is successful for a reason. Mx0 is successful for a reason. Don't wanna believe it? Well the numbers prove you wrong. The games might not be your taste but fact is: names alone don't sell millions of copies. Good gamedesign does. I'm not saying they're entirely better games than EvE but as a matter of fact these games are more successful and that's because their devs will not* allow newbies to be harrassed by alts abused by bored vets. Simple as that. This game, just like any other game should be based on fun. Getting your arse blown to pieces while you barely understand how to fly your ship is not fun. If newbies can be harrassed like that in highsec space, then something needs to be done about it and the OP is damn right when he says just that. Mai's Idealog
Jebidus Skari	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:41:00 - [139] Edited by: Jebidus Skari on 03/05/2005 02:42:12 That's what I've always loved () about arguements on these forums, peoples selfish attitute to differant gaming styles. Just because YOU don't like someones style of play or their interpretation of what's fun doesn't give you the right demand the developers to force them to change their gaming habits. They pay the same money as you to play the same game as you and you have to accept their gaming style as much as they have to accept yours. Don't like it? you can quit! No-one forces you to play this game. I won't make any comments about (Non-War)Empire killing because, to be blunt, I couldn't care less about the topic. Eve has always been a game filled with risks, you either accept it and play the game or you find something else to spend your money on.
Archbishop	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:44:00 - [140] Quote: "Same if all PVPers leave (as is happening) and dont blow crap up WHO YOU gonna sell stuff to? Why would you need it if it isnt destroyed in the first place? no pvpers = mining sim enjoy" With all these PvP'ers in the game you'd think they'd fight each other rather then ganking non-PvPers. Of course ganking a mining barge in 1.0 isn't PvP at all its just ganking. These cowards hiding behind alt corps and disposable ships with alt characters are getting all the reward with no risk. Making their actions "reflect" on their main (including a "criminal record" and "security drop") would make things more equitable. Your free to be a pirate in Eve, to be a thief, Eve is a game of consequences so they say. So have the consequences apply to the ACCOUNT not the CHARACTER. That way if your a barge ganking alt your main will suffer as well and everyone will know what you are. Same for these pathetic ore thieves. I cant believe people pay $15 a month to steal digital Veldspar from some newbies can. How pathetic is that? Its almost laughable thinking about these losers. Eve is about action and consequence. Consequence means CONSEQUENCE. Don't let people hide behind alts. Make alts "traceable" to mains so there can be a real "consequence". After all losing a kestrel is hardly a "conseqence" compared to the reward. If risk / reward are supposed to balance there needs to be a REAL consequence. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER

hyundra04	Posted - 2005.05.03 05:14:00 - [141] Edited by: hyundra04 on 03/05/2005 05:15:33 It's all do do with an easy target and getting a kick from hurting someones game. they love the " why you kill my ship" stuff after. makes them feel they have acheaved something. most are too scared to go 0.0 in case they find a real target. i have lost ships this way and have grown to accept that it is just a game and ccp realy dont care as the game has to be as near to real life as poss.( lol ) try moving to a better area, and find out what that area is like b4 moving all your stuff there
Matthew	Posted - 2005.05.03 08:53:00 - [142] Originally by: Valan Edited by: Valan on 02/05/2005 11:26:51 OK its back to risk and reward, which PvPers quote so much. Destroy a large barge and loot 3 strip miner IIs, in a Kestrel, on an alt account. So wheres the risk for around 90 mill loot. Exactly. It's always been a part of the game that you can suicide gank people in empire. The difference is that, barring the odd stupid hauler full of zyd/mega, it has never been profitable before barges came along, hence it has never been a problem before. With all other ship types, the general rule has been that the more expensive it is, the more punishment it can take. Hence the bigger and more expensive the ship needed to suicide gank it. This meant that you could, if you wanted to, suicide gank someone. But you had to have a very good reason for doing so. With the introduction of paper-thin barges carrying multi-million isk modules, it's quite possible to make a profit from suicide ganking. It's the profit that is the problem, not the ganking itself. Piracy is not supposed to be profitable in secure space. Originally by: DJ LOUD If I see a kitted out barge or BS mining veld in a 1.0, I have no problem with it being "greifed" (killed by a pack of ships, can popped, ore stolen, etc). If you are trained enough to fly a barge or BS, you need to get the hell out of high sec space and leave it to players that have to mine in frigates. At the point that you can fly one of those ships, you are no longer "new". Likewise, if you are AFK mining and I notice, I will drive my MkV to your can and make you my b*tch until the can is empty I have no problem with crafters. Do your thing so I don't have to. But I will do whatever is possible to "greif" you if you are strip mining a 1.0 because you're too much of a carebear to take your business to a .7 and out of total n00b territory. There's just one problem - the crafters need lots of minerals. Lots and lots and lots of minerals. No amount of newbie miners in frigates can ever hope to supply that. Hauling that much trit and pyer all over the place isn't going to happen either. Getting rid of the experienced miners will get rid of the crafters too - you can't build anything without minerals. There are only 2 ways you can keep the player market functioning and get rid of the need for experienced high-sec miners: 1) Move all producers to low-sec space. Of course, they're not going to go there willingly, so you'd have to force them by stripping away all the factory slots. Not going to be popular with producers, and will make it even harder to find stuff for sale. 2) Seriously reduce the amount of low-end minerals needed to make stuff. Which would basically mean rebalancing the whole production chain.
Masu'di	Posted - 2005.05.03 09:13:00 - [143] i find like so many problems in this game, they would be solved quite simply if alts could be removed.
Myal Terego	Posted - 2005.05.03 09:51:00 - [144] Regarding the subject on attacking miners and other targets of oportunity, and why ccp doesnt stop this "griefing". Directly from EvE Chronicles i present you : Prey Miner Captain Ieris Hvik steered her small frigate into another loop, patiently waiting for the miner to disembark from Ethernity II station, a small blip on the edge of her radar. This particular miner promised some good yield, judging by his track record. It was so good in fact, that Hvik had lavishly decorated the miner with her very best tracking devices. Not only could she easily detect him miles away in the midst of an asteroid field, but she could also tell what kind of minerals he was mining at any given moment. Hvik prayed that the miner wouldn’t have the presence of mind to scan his ship for bugs before he undocked - it wasn’t particularly hard to attach the little devils to another ship, but it was even easier to flush them out. Hvik had lost many preys in the past due to an untimely bug scan. At last the bronze colored Navitas-class frigate slid out of the station. The miner adjusted the course of his set, aligning it towards the asteroid belt between Ethernity II and Ethernity III. Few seconds later his warp drive kicked in and in a heartbeat he had disappeared in a bluish flash. Hvik counted to 30 before activating her own warp drive - no need to get the miner paranoid by getting too close on his tail. Once in the asteroid belt Hvik quickly assessed the situation. She picked up the signal emanating from the tracking bug on the miner a few hundred kilometers off and adjusted her course accordingly. Once within scanning range she matched her speed to that of the miner. The miner was already scanning asteroids, but hadn’t yet deployed his mining drones. This, and the fact that he was still heading full speed deeper into the asteroid belt, indicated that he was looking for some specific minerals, undoubtedly some rare ones. Hvik chuckled to herself, pleased with her selection. Now, all she had to do was wait and let the miner do her work for her. Hvik had started out as a miner, but quickly found that she didn’t have the patience for it. But before she quit she’d established some pretty good contacts in the mining industry and was able to off-load minerals at good prices. So it was natural that instead of becoming a mercenary for hire or a pirate chasing freighters, she would focus on miners - preying on them in isolated areas and loot their minerals. It didn’t take all that much combat skills as long as one refrained from attacking groups of miners, so she had instead invested in the skills necessary for operating tracking bugs. And there were always a lot of lone miners in the outer regions, dreaming of striking gold with no one to share with. Hvik was happy to oblige, the miners didn’t have to share with her - she’d take it all. Hvik’s console beeped, dragging her from her reverie. The miner was deploying his drones. Hvik stretched in her cocoon, setting the ship on stand-by, preparing it to haul in the load of the day. [center] http://213.142.66.138/~nervar/myalb.jpg
Matthew	Posted - 2005.05.03 10:45:00 - [145] Originally by: Myal Terego Regarding the subject on attacking miners and other targets of oportunity, and why ccp doesnt stop this "griefing". Directly from EvE Chronicles i present you : Prey Miner Except this story bears very little relation to ganking miners in 1.0 systems. Lets take some extracts: Quote: preying on them in isolated areas Quote: And there were always a lot of lone miners in the outer regions Also note at no time does the pilot make any mention of the concord reaction to what they are about to do - implying there won't be one, which means a low-sec gank. The story seems to be far more about a low-sec track-and-gank than a high-sec suicide gank. Incidentally, anyone in-game care to look up the sec rating of the Ethernity system? I'm at work for the next 5 hours, so can't.
Myal Terego	Posted - 2005.05.03 10:52:00 - [146] Edited by: Myal Terego on 03/05/2005 10:52:52 Yes but i wrote Originally by: Myal Terego Regarding the subject on attacking miners and other targets of oportunity, so the point wasnt if it was a high or low sec system, but that attacking easy targets has always been an intentional option, and nothing new, and wich shouldnt be classed as griefing. cheers :) EDIT: bad spelling as always :/ [center] http://213.142.66.138/~nervar/myalb.jpg
Bunny Wunny	Posted - 2005.05.03 10:54:00 - [147] I'd just like to be able to retal on the guy for the next two weeks.
Arcticblue2	Posted - 2005.05.03 10:55:00 - [148] I don't want more nerfs in the game, I like the game as it is... but I would like some implementions to the game like that flaggingpart of orethiefs... and maybe a statement from CCP that griefing in empire is illegal and an bannable offence. Ofcourse removing alts can solve alot of problems but it can also create alot of problems. Many use alts to scout around, have them in different systems (regions) to check prices and stuff or scout 0.0 space. Some even create alt's for their friends to let them try out stuff... I have used alts for checking how corporate is working (how roles are working and stuff). So it can help but then again, if someone choose to use their main to grief noobs and people who are not interested in that kind of pvp... then what ??? ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor. 13:11
Lianhaun	Posted - 2005.05.03 10:57:00 - [149] Let the GM's decide wheether its griefing or not This is not a hijack
Matthew	Posted - 2005.05.03 11:04:00 - [150] Originally by: Myal Terego Edited by: Myal Terego on 03/05/2005 10:52:52 Yes but i wrote Originally by: Myal Terego Regarding the subject on attacking miners and other targets of oportunity, so the point wasnt if it was a high or low sec system, but that attacking easy targets has always been an intentional option, and nothing new, and wich shouldnt be classed as griefing. cheers :) EDIT: bad spelling as always :/ Yes, but this thread is about attacking miners in secure space. Attacking easy targets has always been an intentional option, in both high and low sec. The difference is that in high-sec, the intention has always been to make the penalty for doing it hurt. Losing a few kestrels in return for a strip miner or two is not a painful punishment. Note that I agree that these suicide ganks are not griefing, I just disagree with the use of that story to argue the point, and am arguing against the ganks for other reasons.



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