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Kali Starchaser
X Soldiers Of Fortune X
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 09:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice? |
Planktal
Kenshao Industries
51
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 09:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Transfer of SP, Not going to happen in a million years. Training another race, try Minmatar or Amarr, Gallente will also be dead with the new NPC AI coming in for rats. Here sanity, nice sanity.....*THWOOK* Got the bastard |
Kara Vix
Sanford and Son Salvage Peregrine Nation
100
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 09:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Train up a Vargur for PVE, it can adapt to anything and looks good doing it. My missile days are over, may my lovely nighthawk rest in peace. |
Jackie Fisher
syrkos technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
139
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 09:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029&find=unread
CCP Fozzie wrote: All Missiles Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.
Short Range Missiles Change the Guided Missile Precision skill, as well as all associated implants and rigs to affect all subcap missiles Reduce HAM launcher PG requirements by 10%
Light Missiles -Decrease all Light Missile Launcher fitting requirements by 2pg and 4cpu -Explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40 -Damage increased by 10% (rounded to closest digit) -Affects all variant light missiles, including FOF.
Heavy Missiles -Base flight time reduced by 35% -Base velocity increased by 14.66% -In total, base range reduced by ~25% -Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit) -Explosion radius increased by 12% -Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.
Tech Two Missiles -Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius) -Precision: Increase bonuses to explosion velocity to +20%, increase damage to match T1 missiles -Fury: Increase damage bonus to +35%, reduce flight time to 75% of T1, unify penalties to explosion radius (+72%) and velocity (-16%) across the sizes -Javelin: Just remove ship penalties -Rage: Increase damage bonus to +35%, Unify flight time to match T1, unify velocity penalty (-16.7%), unify penalty to explosion velocity (-14%), increase penalty to explosion radius (+72%)
tl:dr version - heavy missiles getting nerfed, all other sub cap missiles getting buffed. Fear God and Thread Nought |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
196
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 09:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP will not refund SP for balance changes. They didn't for Supercap changes. They didn't for ship changes. I write a blog. I think people read it. http://throughnewbeyes.wordpress.com
Mate |
Van Kuzco
Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 09:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
I actually think the new HAMs will clear C1s faster than the old HMs. I'm excited to try it out. Has anyone done so on the test server yet? |
Natassia Krasnoo
R3D SHIFT
35
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 10:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great. |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
725
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 10:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
25% reduction in range for heavy missiles , so instead of 100 k in your tengu it is only 75 k 10% less damage .. okay but did you had a look what they doing with t2 missiles , no penamties and some even a damage increase
OP is making a elephant out of a mouse , overlall missiles wil be user friendly and the T2 missiles even better I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Jessy Berbers
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
31
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 11:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Please Heavy Missile users stop over reacting... you're missiles for once will have the same range as my rails, and my drones. |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
153
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 11:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Feel free to abandon the caldari line.
Let's hope you don't expect Gallente or Amarr medium sized long range weapons to be any better than post-Retribution heavy missiles, since heavy missiles will still be leaps and bounds better than all the medium sized long range weapons.
Might be a good idea to start training the other races though, since the BC balancing that's coming up might leave the easy mode drake in a bad place. |
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Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
153
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 11:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great.
Working as intended.
You dont' think that HAMS are supposed to do more damage than heavy missiles, you know since they only go like 1/4 of the distance? |
Merch BAYLOR
New Eden Burns
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 11:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:Natassia Krasnoo wrote:I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great. Working as intended. You dont' think that HAMS are supposed to do more damage than heavy missiles, you know since they only go like 1/4 of the distance?
ROFL....
It's like saying BLasters shouldn't do more damage than Rails since they have a reduced range.
You're funny! |
Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts.
78
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 11:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
pussnheels wrote: 25% reduction in range for heavy missiles , so instead of 100 k in your tengu it is only 75 k 10% less damage .. okay but did you had a look what they doing with t2 missiles , no penamties and some even a damage increase
OP is making a elephant out of a mouse , overlall missiles wil be user friendly and the T2 missiles even better
Although I think the change will be fine and Missiles will survive this nerf.
It be fair to name the total extend of the HM nerf
-Explosion radius increased by 12%
This is nasty bit of it.
you're damage loss against smaller targets is getting a serious nerf.
Though with the reduction of fittings for ham and light missiles launchers and the ubguided missiles becoming guided I think Missiles will survive after the 4th.
Actualy I think HAM and rockets will need a new vieuwing and HM might need that explosion radius a little decreased. |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
153
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 12:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote: -Explosion radius increased by 12%
This is nasty bit of it.
Which brings faction heavy missiles to 105m explosion radius with skills @ 5. Still better than medium turrets with their 125m signature resolution.
Fury, will be affected by this for sure, but yet again precision missiles will be even lower than 105m expl radius. It will end up being 180 explosion radius up from 161, not really a big deal (skills @ 5). |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
883
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 12:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
HMLs getting nerfed, HAMs buffed, torps buffed, rockets buffed. seems like a fair trade to me... |
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
167
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 12:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm fine with this all because I can fly all ships below battleship effectively. I can't however actually fly Gallente or Minnmatar Battleships. I can use their weapons though. I Endorse this Product and/or Service Source Recorder-esque tool for EVE |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
373
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 12:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?
So you have ignored the 2 months of consultation and testing and now you want others to tell you whats going on? Missiles are just being brought more in line with other damage systems, and while heavy missiles are getting nerfed assaults/rockets/torpedos are all getting big buffs. Cruise will still be broken but ccp will fix them when they rebalance bs early next year.
In a nut shell the heavy missiles are getting thier range and damage cut, hams/torps/rockets will now be effected by TNP and all missiles are getting increased velocity with flight time cut to keep range roughly the same. Tengu will still be better than anything else sub bs for pretty much all pve, and won't really have a missile competitor till cruise are fixed. Drake will be a bit less obviously better than all other long range bcs (tho hamdrake is sexed up). Nighthawk and cerberus will be more broken than now, but are due a major overhaul anyway. There are other tidbits like fury becoming more about short range pwnage of big stuff and precisions actually being useful.
If you were to change to amarr or gallente medium long range turrets you would find just how easy mode heavy missiles have been. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
259
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 13:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great.
HAMs are supposed to outdamage HMs.
|
Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts.
78
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 13:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:Mike Whiite wrote: -Explosion radius increased by 12%
This is nasty bit of it.
Which brings faction heavy missiles to 105m explosion radius with skills @ 5. Still better than medium turrets with their 125m signature resolution. Fury, will be affected by this for sure, but yet again precision missiles will be even lower than 105m expl radius. It will end up being 180 explosion radius up from 161, not really a big deal (skills @ 5).
Ofcourse you're allowed your oppinion, but the explosion raduis is a different variable than the turret resolution and the explosion radius is a vastly bigger factor in damage calculation than the turret resolution, which is a to hit factor instead of a damage factor.
|
Kali Starchaser
X Soldiers Of Fortune X
2
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 13:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice? So you have ignored the 2 months of consultation and testing and now you want others to tell you whats going on? Missiles are just being brought more in line with other damage systems, and while heavy missiles are getting nerfed assaults/rockets/torpedos are all getting big buffs. Cruise will still be broken but ccp will fix them when they rebalance bs early next year. In a nut shell the heavy missiles are getting thier range and damage cut, hams/torps/rockets will now be effected by TNP and all missiles are getting increased velocity with flight time cut to keep range roughly the same. Tengu will still be better than anything else sub bs for pretty much all pve, and won't really have a missile competitor till cruise are fixed. Drake will be a bit less obviously better than all other long range bcs (tho hamdrake is sexed up). Nighthawk and cerberus will be more broken than now, but are due a major overhaul anyway. There are other tidbits like fury becoming more about short range pwnage of big stuff and precisions actually being useful. If you were to change to amarr or gallente medium long range turrets you would find just how easy mode heavy missiles have been.
I haven't ignored anything, I was away from the game for almost this entire year and have not been able to keep up on current changes. I just recently started back into EVE and all of a sudden Expansion changes everywhere for me and it was a bit of an overload for me, which I do feel is fair that I ask others for help with my lack of current knowledge on upcoming events. |
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Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
153
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 13:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:Mike Whiite wrote: -Explosion radius increased by 12%
This is nasty bit of it.
Which brings faction heavy missiles to 105m explosion radius with skills @ 5. Still better than medium turrets with their 125m signature resolution. Fury, will be affected by this for sure, but yet again precision missiles will be even lower than 105m expl radius. It will end up being 180 explosion radius up from 161, not really a big deal (skills @ 5). Ofcourse you're allowed your oppinion, but the explosion raduis is a different variable than the turret resolution and the explosion radius is a vastly bigger factor in damage calculation than the turret resolution, which is a to hit factor instead of a damage factor.
What you said is accurate, however, your to hit factor with turrets is directly related to your damage factor.
They probably aren't really comparable in the manner I presented them though, I would only assume that a 105m explosion radius is better than having 125m sig resolution, however I don't care enough about heavy missiles to actually do the math tbh. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
313
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 14:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
the only thing that got nerfed are heavies, is the drake the only ship you use, being a complete chince by never fitting HAMs on it? a HAM drake is great.
HAM tengu with javelins will be pretty powerful too. |
BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
98
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 14:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:the only thing that got nerfed are heavies, is the drake the only ship you use, being a complete chince by never fitting HAMs on it? a HAM drake is great.
HAM tengu with javelins will be pretty powerful too.
Not in fleet fights. |
Funky Lazers
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 14:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
The things is if something got nerfed it doesn't mean it will suck. In case of Heavies they were too powerful and I personally think Heavies need more range nerf. In case of HAMs, they need a range buff, just like torps.
I tested new damage on heavies on a test server and it was fine. Hope next time they nerf ACs so every race won't be OP. |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1629
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 14:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
People always overreact when it comes to nerfs. Just try them (heavy missiles) out in Buckingham, they're still fine albeit the shorter range which is quite fair seeing how ridiculous heavy missiles are in the first place.
HMLs still has the best damage projection out of most (if not all) medium weapon platform. Drake is a bit crappy-er than it used to, but it's still a viable platform for both pve and pvp; Tengu is still the best T3 in terms of versatility in pve areas, with the new buff to T2 HAMs, Tengu even has the highest dps out of all T3s second only to proteus, but with far better range.
As far as dps goes, all HML ships are almost unaffected since the buff to T2 missiles raw damage and GMP practically nullifies the new penalties, to an extent that the nerf effect is so trivial to dps, they don't even matter.
People whom have said they're going to switch races are either opportunist, ignorant, failed at reading comprehension or those who swallowed gossip without first confirming the facts.
PS: Cruise missiles still suck though. How to : Playing Eve 100% Risk and Conflict FREE! |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1629
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 14:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:pussnheels wrote: 25% reduction in range for heavy missiles , so instead of 100 k in your tengu it is only 75 k 10% less damage .. okay but did you had a look what they doing with t2 missiles , no penamties and some even a damage increase
OP is making a elephant out of a mouse , overlall missiles wil be user friendly and the T2 missiles even better Although I think the change will be fine and Missiles will survive this nerf. It be fair to name the total extend of the HM nerf -Explosion radius increased by 12% This is nasty bit of it. you're damage loss against smaller targets is getting a serious nerf. Though with the reduction of fittings for ham and light missiles launchers and the ubguided missiles becoming guided I think Missiles will survive after the 4th. Actualy I think HAM and rockets will need a new vieuwing and HM might need that explosion radius a little decreased. New explosion radius penalties does almost nothing, nerf-wise. Why? please re-read the dev post or better yet, re-read your own post.
Honestly, I don't get why people think this is some major nerf and acted like it's going to be the end of the caldari ship line. It's not. For instance, I'm quite excited about the buff to HAMs since my alt's tengu will be dealing even more dps than the average proteus up to 30km range. No other T3 can do that while still keeping the absurd amount of tank the current tengu has. How to : Playing Eve 100% Risk and Conflict FREE! |
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 14:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tarn Kugisa wrote:I'm fine with this all because I can fly all ships below battleship effectively. I can't however actually fly Gallente or Minnmatar Battleships. I can use their weapons though.
More and more Avatars are becoming Nerf proof.
This nerf has removed a stepping stone for anyone who with low skills and had a focus on Missiles. They were in for a disappointment anyway, when they reached cruise and Torp.
Caldari Rails and superior blaster range is the new doctrine. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
313
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 15:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
BuckStrider wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:the only thing that got nerfed are heavies, is the drake the only ship you use, being a complete chince by never fitting HAMs on it? a HAM drake is great.
HAM tengu with javelins will be pretty powerful too. Not in fleet fights.
not in spam 3000 ship fights no, which is why only maelstroms ever |
Kobal81
14th Legion Black Core Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 15:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?
No SP rembursment your SOL >>Reading is fundamental >>>Dev Posts "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit" |
destiny2
49
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 16:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
simple solution.
If your planning to move to null but still reside, in high sec start training all races to battleship and get al races of t2 large guns. problem solved. |
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McRoll
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
51
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 16:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Only those start training for other races, who are unable to fit something else than a cookie- cutter Tengu or Drake and press F1. Heavies won't be as strong as they were before but they were over the top, honestly. I have a Tengu myself and it is ridiculous how it obsoletes other T3 for exploration and WH activities for example. On the other hand light missiles are getting a slight buff and I am very much looking forward to use them in RvB.
So it all depends on what you want to do with missiles and if you are able to put some thought in your fit. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
140
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 16:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:People always overreact when it comes to nerfs. Just try them (heavy missiles) out in Buckingham, they're still fine albeit the shorter range which is quite fair seeing how ridiculous heavy missiles are in the first place.
HMLs still has the best damage projection out of most (if not all) medium weapon platform. Drake is a bit crappy-er than it used to, but it's still a viable platform for both pve and pvp; Tengu is still the best T3 in terms of versatility in pve areas, with the new buff to T2 HAMs, Tengu even has the highest dps out of all T3s second only to proteus, but with far better range.
As far as dps goes, all HML ships are almost unaffected since the buff to T2 missiles raw damage and GMP practically nullifies the new penalties, to an extent that the nerf effect is so trivial to dps, they don't even matter.
People whom have said they're going to switch races are either opportunist, ignorant, failed at reading comprehension or those who swallowed gossip without first confirming the facts.
PS: Cruise missiles still suck though.
I for one will not be switching from Missiles just because of some minor change in game mechanics. The other mechanics change won't affect my plans for the Gila either.
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BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
98
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 17:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:BuckStrider wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:the only thing that got nerfed are heavies, is the drake the only ship you use, being a complete chince by never fitting HAMs on it? a HAM drake is great.
HAM tengu with javelins will be pretty powerful too. Not in fleet fights. not in spam 3000 ship fights no, which is why only maelstroms ever
Now that heavies are getting nerfed, you remove yet another ship from 0.0 pvp
And you wonder why newer players don't want to go to 0.0 and retention is so hard
Can't wait to see how many players give up using bombers because of this new (and really dumb) Micro Jump Drive |
octahexx Charante
Morior Invictus. Ethereal Dawn
24
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 17:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
just skill up gunnery is my advice.
Once you got all the support skills up you can swap turrets types easily.
Missiles are a isolated tree and your stuck with it.
dont buy the crap ppl say that turrets are worse then missiles,its simply not true and i dont get why they are posting that at all.
Skill gunnery.
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1123
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Van Kuzco wrote:I actually think the new HAMs will clear C1s faster than the old HMs. I'm excited to try it out. Has anyone done so on the test server yet? Maybe in a C1 you can use HAM, but C5 & C6 will be a huge PITA now as spawns can be well over 140 km away. Even with the increased speed subsystem, it took a HML Tengu a while to get into range, and now it will take even longer *sigh* |
Berendas
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
352
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
Caldari are fine. They have been fine (overpowered in some cases). Caldari-exclusive pilots seem to have a persecution complex about being a bad PVP race, and they are ofc dead wrong. I fly all 4 races in subcap PVP and about half of what I end up flying is Caldari. |
Just Lilly
36
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
Like cruiser class launchers is all that caldari has to offer, cmon May 15 2012 |
Lance Rossiter
CHAINS Corp
23
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
I think it's also worth bearing in mind that tiercide will be very helpful to certain missile boats, whose hulls were really disadvantageous compared to their gun boat peers. The Kestrel and the Caracal are going to benefit a lot from their reworks, even if the Caracal loses out on its main weapon systems, so hopefully one change will offset the other.
The Drake is in the worst position because it already had a strong hull, but at least it's got the option of using HAMs.
I'm curious what the future will hold for the Cerberus. |
BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
98
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
Berendas wrote:Caldari are fine. They have been fine (overpowered in some cases). Caldari-exclusive pilots seem to have a persecution complex about being a bad PVP race, and they are ofc dead wrong. I fly all 4 races in subcap PVP and about half of what I end up flying is Caldari.
Yeah those Raven and Rokh fleets are all the rage! |
The Protato
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
89
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
Planktal wrote: Training another race, try Minmatar or Amarr, Gallente will also be dead with the new NPC AI coming in for rats.
Ahahahahahahaha Gallente being used for anything other than blaster PVP... |
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The Protato
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
89
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Merch BAYLOR wrote: ROFL....
It's like saying BLasters shouldn't do more damage than Rails since they have a reduced range.
You're funny!
You realise that they were being sarcastic...? |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
525
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
I didnt realize that a slight nerf to one missile would kill a whole race. I guess the Caldari werent as powerful as they thought if a slight fart could push them off the edge. RIP Caldari race, if only you had another ship to choose from besides the Tengu/Drake. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
373
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
BuckStrider wrote:Berendas wrote:Caldari are fine. They have been fine (overpowered in some cases). Caldari-exclusive pilots seem to have a persecution complex about being a bad PVP race, and they are ofc dead wrong. I fly all 4 races in subcap PVP and about half of what I end up flying is Caldari. Yeah those Raven and Rokh fleets are all the rage! At last check PL was actually doing quite well with Rokhs post crucible. Also why is an HML nerf, a nerf to one of the 2 launcher types bonused on the drake, removing the ship from combat? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
82
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 08:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:As far as dps goes, all HML ships are almost unaffected since the buff to T2 missiles raw damage and GMP practically nullifies the new penalties, to an extent that the nerf effect is so trivial to dps, they don't even matter.
That just wiffle I'm afraid.
Fury HML lose out on damage, (lots of) range, explosion velocity AND signature radius.
It's not the end of days but it's VERY noticeable and non-trivial. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 08:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Fury HML lose out on damage
Still better than T2 short range ammo for medium long range turrets at Fury range.
Morrigan LeSante wrote:(lots of) range
Still better than T2 short range ammo for medium long range turrets.
Morrigan LeSante wrote:explosion velocity
Still better than medium long range turret tracking.
Morrigan LeSante wrote:signature radius
Still better than medium long range turret sig resolution. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
82
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 08:38:00 -
[46] - Quote
Hi Jorma, more sideways posting ignoring the point as always I see.
I'm not getting into this with you again. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 08:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Hi Jorma, more sideways posting ignoring the point as always I see.
I'm not getting into this with you again.
What is the point? |
Lance Rossiter
CHAINS Corp
23
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 11:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
I'm still torn between whether to focus my training on lasers or missiles. The prospect of an upcoming nerf to the most interesting category of missile should be offputting, but the math just doesn't seem to give cause for concern to my relatively inexperienced eye: Damage / ROF for standard ammo at Tech I puts HMLs comfortably ahead of Beam Lasers to the point where it seems like they ought to be able to still absorb the nerf and come out fighting. Granted, they don't have the same access to high-damage ammo types, but that's offset by their lack of capacitor cost, ability to switch to auto-targeting versions, ease of access to pure versions of each damage type, and general effectiveness at any range up to their maximum.
On the other hand, lasers are very shiny.
It doesn't help that the Amarrian ship designs / progression are confusing as all get out: laser ships become close range missile boats at tech II, there's a lack of tech I missile boats (and yet they're turning the Inquisitor into something else?) but there's also strange gaps in the line up of "combat" rather than "attack" laser boats (and yet they're turning the prophecy into something else?) and the whole thing just kinda gives me a headache. At least the Caldari line up of missile boats is somewhat more consistent. |
Kurt Saken
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 11:05:00 -
[49] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:Feel free to abandon the caldari line.
As a Caldari and HAM fan i say no to this. The sky won't fall. Long live the State.
|
Terrorfrodo
GNADE Inc.
243
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 11:43:00 -
[50] - Quote
I think the nerf is measured and sensible.
And if the Drake becomes kind of crappy and is not much used anymore, that's actually not so bad. It has had its time in the sun... years, actually. Time to shake up things a little and make something else the most popular BC.
Not that I think it'll happen, Drake's gonna be fine, especially with HAMs. . |
|
Nyaris Wolfe
Fade To Darkness
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 12:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
I hate Drakes. Kill all drakes. Even and especially MY drake.
Mosty boring ship ever.
But come on a sec, Missiles were always going to need to have this done when compared to other weapon types they have range, they don't need power to fire, they do good damage and they're immune to tracking disruption, the only defense against a missile system is don't get targetted or move faster than they can.
Missiles are great and have their place, but this mass exodus from Missiles IF any such exodus occurs is going to be 99% people who are looking for the next easymode I am an Alt who's main is too damn cheap to sub. http://aracimia.blogspot.co.uk/ Brony Capsuleer best Capsuleer!
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Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
769
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 13:11:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?
If they know that missiles are going to take a hit, (pardon the pun) they will probably also know that drones are due for a bashing in missions as well. This is not a signature. |
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
77
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 13:32:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Van Kuzco wrote:I actually think the new HAMs will clear C1s faster than the old HMs. I'm excited to try it out. Has anyone done so on the test server yet? Maybe in a C1 you can use HAM, but C5 & C6 will be a huge PITA now as spawns can be well over 140 km away. Even with the increased speed subsystem, it took a HML Tengu a while to get into range, and now it will take even longer *sigh*
ohnoes maybe you'll have to get some lokis and dreads and do it like the rest of us wumbo |
Emperors Bride
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 13:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
Eli Green wrote:ohnoes maybe you'll have to get some lokis and dreads and do it like the rest of us
So true.
Do it like the rest of us. Find the new cookie cutter ship with the cookie cutter fit to do the cookie cutter content. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 14:12:00 -
[55] - Quote
Merch BAYLOR wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:Natassia Krasnoo wrote:I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great. Working as intended. You dont' think that HAMS are supposed to do more damage than heavy missiles, you know since they only go like 1/4 of the distance? ROFL.... It's like saying BLasters shouldn't do more damage than Rails since they have a reduced range. You're funny!
This is what most missile users are not understanding, this core change to missiles is awesome to bring it on pair with other weapon systems, of course I like my 130km HM shooting Tengu but I think this is not reasonably balanced. If I want to hit with 720's above 120km I have to do total sacrifice on my tank prop mods to fit exclusively dmg/tracking computers TE's and rigs. But we're then comparing an orange (hurricane) with an apple (tengu) which is wrong.
Then we can start looking at same current tiers BC's, all LR fitted with T2 ammo, no tank and prop mods. Only dmg and range mods: HM's are completely out of whack compared with all other weapon systems of the same size one same tier BC.
So this change is for the greater good and I'll deal with this change on my Tengu, I'm also happy HAM's are getting such an awesome and deserved buff. -SR missiles in general- |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1631
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 22:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Sarah Schneider wrote:As far as dps goes, all HML ships are almost unaffected since the buff to T2 missiles raw damage and GMP practically nullifies the new penalties, to an extent that the nerf effect is so trivial to dps, they don't even matter. That just wiffle I'm afraid. Fury HML lose out on damage, (lots of) range, explosion velocity AND signature radius. It's not the end of days but it's VERY noticeable and non-trivial. It is not, and it is trivial because when talking about T2 missiles, the overall dps is practically increased with the new changes. Damage/dps decrease =/= damage penalties. Countering penalties in missiles are done by fitting mid slot mods. Dps mods are low slot mods. So when you minimize the penalties to an acceptable level, for instance in missiles say it's to deal it's max potential to battlecruiser hulls and above (or even cruisers and above), all it's left is the dps, which will get added bonus in the next patch.
A single TP with GMP at IV (even without rigors/flares) will still almost eliminate the penalties caused by exp. radius-target sig. The only thing left is the exp. velocity changes and since it's a 2 digit number (or 3 with good skills), -16% change is almost insignificant to the extent that it's the same as it is now.
Unlike guns, missile boats don't need TEs (yet), so even with stacking penalties, the potential dps difference in comparison is still pretty wide. How to : Playing Eve 100% Risk and Conflict FREE! |
John Caligan
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 22:21:00 -
[57] - Quote
Quite frankly, I am a bit peeved at the explosion radius increase and damage cut coming to HMs. I fly a PvE Drake in LV3's, and I already do crap damage against my targets. Now, I'm gonna do even less... |
Oopsy Bear
Massively Masochistic Machos
13
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 00:17:00 -
[58] - Quote
John Caligan wrote:Quite frankly, I am a bit peeved at the explosion radius increase and damage cut coming to HMs. I fly a PvE Drake in LV3's, and I already do crap damage against my targets. Now, I'm gonna do even less...
Is this sarcasm or do you not know what rigs to use or what to put into the low slots? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2774
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 01:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
Lance Rossiter wrote:I'm still torn between whether to focus my training on lasers or missiles. The prospect of an upcoming nerf to the most interesting category of missile should be offputting, but the math just doesn't seem to give cause for concern to my relatively inexperienced eye: Damage / ROF for standard ammo at Tech I puts HMLs comfortably ahead of Beam Lasers to the point where it seems like they ought to be able to still absorb the nerf and come out fighting. Granted, they don't have the same access to high-damage ammo types, but that's offset by their lack of capacitor cost, ability to switch to auto-targeting versions, ease of access to pure versions of each damage type, and general effectiveness at any range up to their maximum.
On the other hand, lasers are very shiny.
It doesn't help that the Amarrian ship designs / progression are confusing as all get out: laser ships become close range missile boats at tech II, there's a lack of tech I missile boats (and yet they're turning the Inquisitor into something else?) but there's also strange gaps in the line up of "combat" rather than "attack" laser boats (and yet they're turning the prophecy into something else?) and the whole thing just kinda gives me a headache. At least the Caldari line up of missile boats is somewhat more consistent. I prefer to think of the Amarrian line up as "pleasantly eccentric". To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
loki energon
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 14:21:00 -
[60] - Quote
John Caligan wrote:Quite frankly, I am a bit peeved at the explosion radius increase and damage cut coming to HMs. I fly a PvE Drake in LV3's, and I already do crap damage against my targets. Now, I'm gonna do even less...
is this just a troll? really? if you arent clobbering L3 missions inna drake, i have one thing to say. YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. a well fit drake can do 500+ dps. if thats waaay more than you are getting, check your fitttings, check your rigs, and for heavens sake train your support skills to at LEAST 4 kill em all. |
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Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 14:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
I don't see why any sensible person would cross train solely because of the nerf considering Heavy Missiles are still better than every other long range medium sized weapons system after the nerf.
Woe unto anyone who decided to train for Medium Rails. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote:I don't see why any sensible person would cross train solely because of the nerf considering Heavy Missiles are still better than every other long range medium sized weapons system after the nerf. Woe unto anyone who decided to train for Medium Rails.
You didn't mention medium ACs. Oh wait... Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:18:00 -
[63] - Quote
Missile changes are just bittervets whining.
I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:19:00 -
[64] - Quote
loki energon wrote:John Caligan wrote:Quite frankly, I am a bit peeved at the explosion radius increase and damage cut coming to HMs. I fly a PvE Drake in LV3's, and I already do crap damage against my targets. Now, I'm gonna do even less... is this just a troll? really? if you arent clobbering L3 missions inna drake, i have one thing to say. YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. a well fit drake can do 500+ dps. if thats waaay more than you are getting, check your fitttings, check your rigs, and for heavens sake train your support skills to at LEAST 4
It's ~270 dps for lvl2-3 skill noobs, far less with exp radius and exp velocity applied. That is, if they fit properly (noobs tend to fit 4x sprs in lows and no dmg mod), if not, they don't break rat regen. Or do you think max skilled vets run lvl3 missions in drakes?
Go look in help channels in game. Noob cane lvl3 missioners never have trouble killing rats even with all their skills at lvl1 and bad fits. It's only the noob drake missioners complaining about not being able to break rat regen.
Vet carebears grind missions in Machs/Vargurs/NM. Tengu, much less Drake, is far too anemic in dps even pre-nerf compared to these.
This is basically a noob mission runner nerf. It doesn't affect vet carebears who don't use HM anyway. Nor drake blobbers who don't care for dmg on a drake, only buffer. You're just as dead when primaried by 500 drakes, and each of their buffers are just as beefy.
Nyancat Audeles wrote:Missile changes are just bittervets whining.
I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.
Winmatar online? Don't get me wrong, I fly Winmatar, not Caldari, but just had to say something regarding this hypocrisy... Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:28:00 -
[65] - Quote
well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable |
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade Republic Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029&find=unreadCCP Fozzie wrote: All Missiles Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.
Short Range Missiles Change the Guided Missile Precision skill, as well as all associated implants and rigs to affect all subcap missiles Reduce HAM launcher PG requirements by 10%
Light Missiles -Decrease all Light Missile Launcher fitting requirements by 2pg and 4cpu -Explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40 -Damage increased by 10% (rounded to closest digit) -Affects all variant light missiles, including FOF.
Heavy Missiles -Base flight time reduced by 35% -Base velocity increased by 14.66% -In total, base range reduced by ~25% -Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit) -Explosion radius increased by 12% -Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.
Tech Two Missiles -Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius) -Precision: Increase bonuses to explosion velocity to +20%, increase damage to match T1 missiles -Fury: Increase damage bonus to +35%, reduce flight time to 75% of T1, unify penalties to explosion radius (+72%) and velocity (-16%) across the sizes -Javelin: Just remove ship penalties -Rage: Increase damage bonus to +35%, Unify flight time to match T1, unify velocity penalty (-16.7%), unify penalty to explosion velocity (-14%), increase penalty to explosion radius (+72%)
tl:dr version - heavy missiles getting nerfed, all other sub cap missiles getting buffed.
They really need to do something about 'time of flight' bonuses because with the exception of maybe torpedos, they're all worthless and should be replaced with velocity bonuses, then maybe ships like the Cerberus would be worth actual isk. Range is irrelevant if it literally takes a minute or longer for damage to land. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
297
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:31:00 -
[67] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:Missile changes are just bittervets whining.
I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.
What???
The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE...
You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts.
Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure.
drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent.
Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation.
These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP.
Look at Winmatar.
Sleipnir - pwn Macharial - pwn Claymore - pwn Hurricane Tornado Cyclone Tempest + fleet Typhoon + fleet Maelstrom Bhaalgorn Vindicator Rupture Stabber Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game. Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp.
As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at
The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal.
So, what's this about the game being Caldari online?
|
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:36:00 -
[68] - Quote
lovatus wrote:well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable
This is the noob whine that takes up most of help channel volume pre-nerf, unique to heavy missiles/drake, as cane noob missioners rarely have trouble killing rats. And now, exp velocity + exp radius + (least of all) 10% dmg nerf brings this noob experience to you. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Nyancat Audeles wrote:Missile changes are just bittervets whining.
I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races. What??? The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE... You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts. Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure. drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent. Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation. These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP. Look at Winmatar. Sleipnir - pwn Macharial - pwn Claymore - pwn Hurricane - pwnTornado - pwnCyclone Tempest + fleet Typhoon + fleet Maelstrom - pwnBhaalgorn Vindicator Rupture Stabber Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game. Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp. As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal. So, what's this about the game being Caldari online? You missed the pwn tags on cane, tornado and mael. There, I fixed it for you.
Also, suggesting adding fail list. Guess which race will populate it... Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:41:00 -
[70] - Quote
from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad. my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you. |
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Korinne
The Partisan Brigade Republic Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:43:00 -
[71] - Quote
They chose the nuclear option for dealing with missles, mostly because of drakes and the fact that these giant alliances can build 200 cookie cutter drakes and throw them at noobs just to pad their fleets. That's not a problem w/ drakes, thats a problem w/ huge alliances and the mechanics for huge blob fights. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:44:00 -
[72] - Quote
lovatus wrote:from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad. my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you.
But it's only 10%! Oh wait, exp radius + exp velocity. Makes you wonder if devs actually plays Eve. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:45:00 -
[73] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:lovatus wrote:well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable This is the noob whine that takes up most of help channel volume pre-nerf, unique to heavy missiles/drake, as cane noob missioners rarely have trouble killing rats. And now, exp velocity + exp radius + (least of all) 10% dmg nerf brings this noob experience to you. doesnt change the fact that missiles have now become unusable, ive ended up resorting to a ferox with rails now so i an actually do l3 missions |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:47:00 -
[74] - Quote
lovatus wrote:sabre906 wrote:lovatus wrote:well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable This is the noob whine that takes up most of help channel volume pre-nerf, unique to heavy missiles/drake, as cane noob missioners rarely have trouble killing rats. And now, exp velocity + exp radius + (least of all) 10% dmg nerf brings this noob experience to you. doesnt change the fact that missiles have now become unusable, ive ended up resorting to a ferox with rails now so i an actually do l3 missions
It's unusable for you. Imagine how it is for the noobs. It's almost as if CCP want rookie players to quit the game.
Korinne wrote:They chose the nuclear option for dealing with missles, mostly because of drakes and the fact that these giant alliances can build 200 cookie cutter drakes and throw them at noobs just to pad their fleets. That's not a problem w/ drakes, thats a problem w/ huge alliances and the mechanics for huge blob fights.
Guess again. When 200 drakes primary you, you're just as dead. And their buffer is just as beefy.
No, this is a nerf for noob mission runners, not drake blobs. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9 Quantum Cafe
114
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.
While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
fukier
Flatline.
217
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:54:00 -
[76] - Quote
Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?
hml nerf that is all...
and if you are cross training go minnie...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:55:00 -
[77] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.
While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection.
Your max skill tengu is still workable. 70km is not much lower than the AC Mach. The Mach does 2x the dps, but also harder to speed tank.
The people who really got butchered are noob mission runners with drakes. Go into help channel in game right now, and you'll see them "seeking help" for not breaking the tank of a cruiser rat. CCP hates noobs/new customers... Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:58:00 -
[78] - Quote
Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice? Train all ships and all weapons to 5. Then when ccp gets stupid on missiles just switch to pulse lasers or other weapon systems.
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CausticS0da
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
75
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:01:00 -
[79] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Nyancat Audeles wrote:Missile changes are just bittervets whining.
I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races. What??? The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE... You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts. Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure. drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent. Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation. These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP. Look at Winmatar. Sleipnir - pwn Macharial - pwn Claymore - pwn Hurricane - pwnTornado - pwnCyclone Tempest + fleet Typhoon + fleet Maelstrom + fleetBhaalgorn Vindicator Rupture Stabber Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game. Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp. As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal. So, what's this about the game being Caldari online? You missed the pwn tags on cane and tornado. There, I fixed it for you. Also, suggesting adding fail list. Guess which race will populate it...
Merlin? Harpy? Hookbill? Falcon? Scorpion? Tengu? Drake? Naga?
Drake and tengu fleets have been core doctrines for many alliances over the last 2 years... |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
1163
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
lovatus wrote:well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable You're full of crap. I tried this out with a tengu and barely noticed the change. www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
379
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:07:00 -
[81] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.
While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection. Your max skill tengu is still workable. 70km is not much lower than the AC Mach. The Mach does 2x the dps, but also harder to speed tank. Btw, I'd imagine that 3 and 1/2 races include Winmatar? So you're good. The people who really got butchered are noob mission runners with drakes. Go into help channel in game right now, and you'll see them "seeking help" for not breaking the tank of a cruiser rat. CCP hates noobs/new customers... Lots of drake runners doing level 4's but not so many Hurricane/Myrmadon/Harbinger lvl 4 runners out there I'd bet. In fact the people mentioning the Hurricane nerf never complained about reduced lvl 4 capabilities. Apparently CCP decided caldari new pilots would be better on the same level as other races new BC pilots. |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:08:00 -
[82] - Quote
CausticS0da wrote:sabre906 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Nyancat Audeles wrote:Missile changes are just bittervets whining.
I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races. What??? The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE... You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts. Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure. drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent. Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation. These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP. Look at Winmatar. Sleipnir - pwn Macharial - pwn Claymore - pwn Hurricane - pwnTornado - pwnCyclone Tempest + fleet Typhoon + fleet Maelstrom + fleetBhaalgorn Vindicator Rupture Stabber Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game. Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp. As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal. So, what's this about the game being Caldari online? You missed the pwn tags on cane and tornado. There, I fixed it for you. Also, suggesting adding fail list. Guess which race will populate it... Merlin? Harpy? Hookbill? Falcon? Scorpion? Tengu? Drake? Naga? Drake and tengu fleets have been core doctrines for many alliances over the last 2 years...
the problems with drake and tengu was they had a ridiculous passive tank, nerfing HM's wont change that. it just makes them near unusable for solo mission runners |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:10:00 -
[83] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:sabre906 wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.
While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection. Your max skill tengu is still workable. 70km is not much lower than the AC Mach. The Mach does 2x the dps, but also harder to speed tank. Btw, I'd imagine that 3 and 1/2 races include Winmatar? So you're good. The people who really got butchered are noob mission runners with drakes. Go into help channel in game right now, and you'll see them "seeking help" for not breaking the tank of a cruiser rat. CCP hates noobs/new customers... Lots of drake runners doing level 4's but not so many Hurricane/Myrmadon/Harbinger lvl 4 runners out there I'd bet. In fact the people mentioning the Hurricane nerf never complained about reduced lvl 4 capabilities. Apparently CCP decided caldari new pilots would be better on the same level as other races new BC pilots.
the hurricane nerd still let them something to work with though because projectile weapons got a reduction in pwg requirements |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
379
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:14:00 -
[84] - Quote
lovatus wrote: the hurricane nerd still let them something to work with though because projectile weapons got a reduction in pwg requirements
Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work. |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:20:00 -
[85] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.
While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection.
So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km? |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
326
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:sabre906 wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.
While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection. Your max skill tengu is still workable. 70km is not much lower than the AC Mach. The Mach does 2x the dps, but also harder to speed tank. Btw, I'd imagine that 3 and 1/2 races include Winmatar? So you're good. The people who really got butchered are noob mission runners with drakes. Go into help channel in game right now, and you'll see them "seeking help" for not breaking the tank of a cruiser rat. CCP hates noobs/new customers... Lots of drake runners doing level 4's but not so many Hurricane/Myrmadon/Harbinger lvl 4 runners out there I'd bet. In fact the people mentioning the Hurricane nerf never complained about reduced lvl 4 capabilities. Apparently CCP decided caldari new pilots would be better on the same level as other races new BC pilots.
This is another one of those perpetuated myths. Drakes doing level 4 missions was never popular. It was possible to tank the mission with a drake for a longer time period than other ships but completing the mission was never practical in a Drake. |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:26:00 -
[87] - Quote
lovatus wrote:from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad. my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you.
500 damage per volley? WTF? Are you grouping your weapons? Someone else in here talked about having 4 SPRs in the lows on a Drake? WTF? That is way too much tank for an L3. Learn to EVE. |
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:29:00 -
[88] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Lots of drake runners doing level 4's but not so many Hurricane/Myrmadon/Harbinger lvl 4 runners out there I'd bet. In fact the people mentioning the Hurricane nerf never complained about reduced lvl 4 capabilities. Apparently CCP decided caldari new pilots would be better on the same level as other races new BC pilots.
Not really. While a Drake can tank level 4s and CAN do them, the DPS is very low which makes it too tedious. They move up to Ravens instead. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
379
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
Ocih wrote: This is another one of those perpetuated myths. Drakes doing level 4 missions was never popular. It was possible to tank the mission with a drake for a longer time period than other ships but completing the mission was never practical in a Drake.
I'd be willing to bet the use of Drakes is more prevalent than you believe, though almost exclusively among newer, non-multiboxing players to do lvl 4's solo while waiting on the necessary isk and/or skills to reasonably be able to upgrade, which was enabled by the tank which remains intact and the DPS which till today counted as barely passable.
|
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
274
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:31:00 -
[90] - Quote
Wow... just finished checking my missile boats. Most fared fine, including the Cerb. But my Tengu is now less than 50% range than it was yesterday.
Ouch. And wow. |
|
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
148
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:33:00 -
[91] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Fury HML lose out on damage Still better than T2 short range ammo for medium long range turrets at Fury range. Morrigan LeSante wrote:(lots of) range Still better than T2 short range ammo for medium long range turrets. Morrigan LeSante wrote:explosion velocity Still better than medium long range turret tracking. Morrigan LeSante wrote:signature radius Still better than medium long range turret sig resolution.
Transversal Effects:- (Target Speed) Close range - Noticable Medium Range - Average Long Range - Negligable
Explosion Velocity (Target Speed) Close Range - Noticable Medium Range - Noticable Long Range - Noticable |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:39:00 -
[92] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:lovatus wrote:from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad. my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you. 500 damage per volley? WTF? Are you grouping your weapons? Someone else in here talked about having 4 SPRs in the lows on a Drake? WTF? That is way too much tank for an L3. Learn to EVE.
im a low skilled player. and whats an SPR? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:42:00 -
[93] - Quote
lovatus wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:lovatus wrote:from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad. my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you. 500 damage per volley? WTF? Are you grouping your weapons? Someone else in here talked about having 4 SPRs in the lows on a Drake? WTF? That is way too much tank for an L3. Learn to EVE. im a low skilled player. and whats an SPR? Shield Power Relay, increases passive shield regen. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
148
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:42:00 -
[94] - Quote
Shield Power Relay i think
2 should be plenty, leaving 2 free slot for ballistic controls |
Johan Civire
Dirty Curse inc.
216
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:43:00 -
[95] - Quote
uhmmm iam the only one thats happy about those change..... |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:55:00 -
[96] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Shield Power Relay i think
2 should be plenty, leaving 2 free slot for ballistic controls
depressingly that meagre dps was achieved using two t2 ballistic control systems. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
2167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:58:00 -
[97] - Quote
Null bear Tengu tears... Delicious!
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
184
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:00:00 -
[98] - Quote
Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?
This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed. |
CARB0N FIBER
Derailleurs
64
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:05:00 -
[99] - Quote
Kara Vix wrote:Train up a Vargur for PVE, it can adapt to anything and looks good doing it. My missile days are over, may my lovely nighthawk rest in peace.
Not going to work either. NPC ewar buff and drone nerf is going to make vagur a lot less useful. This "expansion" is pretty much a game wide nerf. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
299
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:06:00 -
[100] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Nyancat Audeles wrote:Missile changes are just bittervets whining.
I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races. What??? The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE... You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts. Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure. drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent. Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation. These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP. Look at Winmatar. Sleipnir - pwn Macharial - pwn Claymore - pwn Hurricane - pwnTornado - pwnCyclone Tempest + fleet Typhoon + fleet Maelstrom + fleetBhaalgorn Vindicator Rupture Stabber Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game. Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp. As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal. So, what's this about the game being Caldari online? You missed the pwn tags on cane and tornado. There, I fixed it for you. Also, suggesting adding fail list. Guess which race will populate it...
I didn't miss the pwn, I just figured the pwn would carry itself down the list cause every last one of those ships could pwn anything of equal, or in some cases, greater value. |
|
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
184
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:14:00 -
[101] - Quote
BuckStrider wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:BuckStrider wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:the only thing that got nerfed are heavies, is the drake the only ship you use, being a complete chince by never fitting HAMs on it? a HAM drake is great.
HAM tengu with javelins will be pretty powerful too. Not in fleet fights. not in spam 3000 ship fights no, which is why only maelstroms ever Now that heavies are getting nerfed, you remove yet another ship from 0.0 pvp And you wonder why newer players don't want to go to 0.0 and retention is so hard Can't wait to see how many players give up using bombers because of this new (and really dumb) Micro Jump Drive
Yeah, gonna eduate you a bit here.
MJD has a 12 second spool up time. That means you don't move for 12 seconds after hitting the button.
I'll be generous and give you a 2 second reaction time, meaning you hit the button 2 seconds after seeing the bombers decloak and launch. But, as you'll see in a moment, even if you hit it perfectly your reaction time does not matter.
Bombs detonate 10 seconds after launch.
So unless you hit the button at least 3 seconds before the guy fires the bomb, you're still going to get hit. In which case, unless you're in a freighter, you would have warped out by then anyway.
Ignoring the fact that even 7 bombs, the max you can launch at one area at a time, will not kill a battleship.
Ignoring the fact that you aren't going anywhere anyway if he forgoes the bomb and just decloaks next to you and tackles you.
Micro Jump Drives have no bearing on stealth bombers whatsoever. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
1163
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:18:00 -
[102] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Null bear Tengu tears... Delicious! We null players spend all our time running L3's. Yep. Or did you mean 'former null bears who lost all their space because they wouldn't undock'? www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious |
Lili Lu
605
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:21:00 -
[103] - Quote
Welp. Threads like this are just a necessary price to be paid for rebalancing the op **** in the game. Besides, it is also amusing seeing the blind sperging rage, while these folks can't see the benefits to other things (like other missiles). I have 11.6 mil sp in missiles and not regretting any of it. Speak for yourself OP. Those with more perspective will not see this set of changes as you do. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
423
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:32:00 -
[104] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice? This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed.
Here's the problem:
Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps Railgun II - 13.7 dps Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps
1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus
You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
1163
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. You have completely ignored the damage type concentration of missiles, which is their greatest advantage. www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious |
Lili Lu
607
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:45:00 -
[106] - Quote
sabre906 wrote: Here's the problem:
Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps Railgun II - 13.7 dps Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps
1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus
You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. You apparently don't have any experience with range stats on ammo. It appears you simplistically pluged tech II high damage ammo into long range turrets and started jumping up and down and pointing furiously. Hint - check out the range on that high damage ammo. Sure at very short range long range turrets will have a slight dps advantage. But very quickly HMs start overtaking and by max range they very much so out dps long range medium turrets, even still after this nerf. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
423
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:48:00 -
[107] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:sabre906 wrote:You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. You have completely ignored the damage type concentration of missiles, which is their greatest advantage.
You mean how if you don't use kinetic, you lose your ship dmg bonus? Winmatar switching between em and explosive while keeping ship dmg bonus is clearly not as good as kinetic, since they're not "pure?" Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:49:00 -
[108] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:sabre906 wrote: Here's the problem:
Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps Railgun II - 13.7 dps Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps
1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus
You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. You apparently don't have any experience with range stats on ammo. It appears you simplistically pluged tech II high damage ammo into long range turrets and started jumping up and down and pointing furiously. Hint - check out the range on that high damage ammo. Sure at very short range long range turrets will have a slight dps advantage. But very quickly HMs start overtaking and by max range they very much so out dps long range medium turrets, even still after this nerf.
if thats the case how come a t2 heavy launcher with scourge furies gets out tanked by a rat cruiser? |
Lili Lu
607
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:51:00 -
[109] - Quote
sabre906 wrote: You do realize the nerf bat isn't limited to HMLs, right? While the 10% dmg nerf only applies to HML, it isn't the real nerf. 10% is barely noticeable. It's the exp velocity and exp radius that kills it. Remember when ppl whine about having -40% dmg? They're not lying, it's just applied dmg as they see it in game, not eft warrioring dmg. Why CCP feels Rage torp exp radius need to be even bigger than it was, I'll never know... Yeah, missiles should have nothing to compensate for.
Turret users have had to fit TCs and TEs for years to make their weapons perform. Missile users have just been, fit launcher, fit damage mod, done. That will be changing. The TC and TE changes are coming to eat back the alterations on some of those explosion and range parameters you are complaining about. We'll see what the picture looks like then.
Meanwhile yes, I'll keep using a phoon. I'll look forward to trying out the new Caracals and Bellicoses. Etc. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
184
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:52:00 -
[110] - Quote
sabre906 wrote: You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. ..
Yeah, that's not at all what I said. I'm pointing out why people are complaining. HM's should do less damage than short range weapons, because they are a long range weapon.
They do slightly less (if your numbers are even correct) than long range turrets because turrets can miss. There are only 2 ways you will miss with a missile: you're shooting at something too far away, or your target is moving faster than the missile. |
|
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:52:00 -
[111] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice? This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed. Here's the problem: Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps Railgun II - 13.7 dps Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps 1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs.
Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo
Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
2167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:52:00 -
[112] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Null bear Tengu tears... Delicious! We null players spend all our time running L3's. Yep. Or did you mean 'former null bears who lost all their space because they wouldn't undock'? Why does -A- have to do with this?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:55:00 -
[113] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work.
Allowing the cane to fit arty's is actually a very powerful buff, expecially for mission running. Even more so when you consider that unlike the drake and tengu, the cane is not limited to bonuses of one damage type.
Silk daShocka wrote: So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km?
The issue was not with hmls, but with the drake and tengu. that said, the drake and tengu will probably get rebalanced with substantial nerfs. So, if they don't refund the damage and range nerfs that came along with hmls on these two ships, then they'll become useless.
With these nerfs has come nothing but the loss of hmls as an effective weapon system on strategic cruisers and battlecruisers. This doesn't too much effect cruisers themselves because many of them can't target that far anyway.
You'll see, the only thing that will change with drake and tengu fleet doctrines is that they'll either be abolished, or they'll fit hams.
Truthfully, hams drake and expecially tengus will pwn now.
My tengu fit that I used in missions had roughly 721 dps with a hm-705 implant. However, if I took that same fit and put hams on it I would have had 838 dps, cap stable with a 10mn afterburner and a target painter. Now, that fit will have even more damage. Close to, if not over 900 dps, plus the bonus of guided missile precision. That's on top of being cap stable, 536m/s, 150m sig, and an omni tank with 334 pure em at its weakest. Imagine if I fit mission specific resists. Oh, and that has a target painter.
So, if you really feel that hmls were the problem, think again. |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:57:00 -
[114] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:sabre906 wrote: You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. ..
Yeah, that's not at all what I said. I'm pointing out why people are complaining. HM's should do less damage than short range weapons, because they are a long range weapon.They do slightly less (if your numbers are even correct) than long range turrets because turrets can miss. There are only 2 ways you will miss with a missile: you're shooting at something too far away, or your target is moving faster than the missile.
the hole in your logic is that hml's also got a 25% range reduction, putting them at a rather distinct disadvantage compared to the other long range weapon groups |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
423
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:58:00 -
[115] - Quote
lovatus wrote:Lili Lu wrote:sabre906 wrote: Here's the problem:
Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps Railgun II - 13.7 dps Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps
1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus
You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. You apparently don't have any experience with range stats on ammo. It appears you simplistically pluged tech II high damage ammo into long range turrets and started jumping up and down and pointing furiously. Hint - check out the range on that high damage ammo. Sure at very short range long range turrets will have a slight dps advantage. But very quickly HMs start overtaking and by max range they very much so out dps long range medium turrets, even still after this nerf. if thats the case how come a t2 heavy launcher with scourge furies gets out tanked by a rat cruiser?
Exp radius and exp velocity, that's the real nerf, not the 10% dmg nerf.
In any case, take out multi and put in xray for same base range as HML, at which point the laser does 12.5 dps and missile 11.2 dps. Not that matters much because gun's applied dmg is far higher. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
150
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:59:00 -
[116] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:sabre906 wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice? This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed. Here's the problem: Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps Railgun II - 13.7 dps Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps 1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs
Thing is your doing excactly what your complaining about him doing Comparing T2 ammo types with non T2 ammo types
but oh yeah .. theres about 9 different types of faction Hybrid Ammo Low Range/High DPS through to Long Range/Low DPS ... CN Missiles are just 1 range/dps value
and everyone conveniently ignores the transversal vs explosion velocity comparison because it stuffs whatever argument they have against missiles. |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:01:00 -
[117] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work.
Allowing the cane to fit arty's is actually a very powerful buff, expecially for mission running. Even more so when you consider that unlike the drake and tengu, the cane is not limited to bonuses of one damage type. Silk daShocka wrote: So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km?
The issue was not with hmls, but with the drake and tengu. that said, the drake and tengu will probably get rebalanced with substantial nerfs. So, if they don't refund the damage and range nerfs that came along with hmls on these two ships, then they'll become useless. With these nerfs has come nothing but the loss of hmls as an effective weapon system on strategic cruisers and battlecruisers. This doesn't too much effect cruisers themselves because many of them can't target that far anyway. You'll see, the only thing that will change with drake and tengu fleet doctrines is that they'll either be abolished, or they'll fit hams. Truthfully, hams drake and expecially tengus will pwn now. My tengu fit that I used in missions had roughly 721 dps with a hm-705 implant. However, if I took that same fit and put hams on it I would have had 838 dps, cap stable with a 10mn afterburner and a target painter. Now, that fit will have even more damage. Close to, if not over 900 dps, plus the bonus of guided missile precision. That's on top of being cap stable, 536m/s, 150m sig, and an omni tank with 334 pure em at its weakest. Imagine if I fit mission specific resists. Oh, and that has a target painter. So, if you really feel that hmls were the problem, think again.
So what your saying, is that you don't have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km. Ok gotcha. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
423
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:05:00 -
[118] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work.
Allowing the cane to fit arty's is actually a very powerful buff, expecially for mission running. Even more so when you consider that unlike the drake and tengu, the cane is not limited to bonuses of one damage type. Silk daShocka wrote: So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km?
The issue was not with hmls, but with the drake and tengu. that said, the drake and tengu will probably get rebalanced with substantial nerfs. So, if they don't refund the damage and range nerfs that came along with hmls on these two ships, then they'll become useless. With these nerfs has come nothing but the loss of hmls as an effective weapon system on strategic cruisers and battlecruisers. This doesn't too much effect cruisers themselves because many of them can't target that far anyway. You'll see, the only thing that will change with drake and tengu fleet doctrines is that they'll either be abolished, or they'll fit hams. Truthfully, hams drake and expecially tengus will pwn now. My tengu fit that I used in missions had roughly 721 dps with a hm-705 implant. However, if I took that same fit and put hams on it I would have had 838 dps, cap stable with a 10mn afterburner and a target painter. Now, that fit will have even more damage. Close to, if not over 900 dps, plus the bonus of guided missile precision. That's on top of being cap stable, 536m/s, 150m sig, and an omni tank with 334 pure em at its weakest. Imagine if I fit mission specific resists. Oh, and that has a target painter. So, if you really feel that hmls were the problem, think again. So what your saying, is that you don't have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km. Ok gotcha.
Or you can think of it this way: he doesn't have a tengu fit that does more than half a loki's applied dps at 30km.
Why don't you go in game, load a hml, shoot a rat, and see how much of that paper dps you get, at any range. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:07:00 -
[119] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:sabre906 wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice? This issue is people are comparing heavy missiles to pulse lasers and blasters, instead of long range weapons like railguns and beams. Heavy missiles are a long range weapon. That means they're supposed to do less damage than short range weapons, which is why they got nerfed. Here's the problem: Heavy Missile II - 11.2 dps Railgun II - 13.7 dps Beam Laser II - 14.5 dps 1x medium weapon each, base stat without skill or ship bonus You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs Thing is your doing excactly what your complaining about him doing doing Comparing T2 ammo types with non T2 ammo types but oh yeah .. theres about 9 different types of faction Hybrid Ammo Low Range/High DPS through to Long Range/Low DPS ... CN Missiles are just 1 range/dps value and everyone conveniently ignores the transversal vs explosion velocity comparison because it stuffs whatever argument they have against missiles.
Yeah, only I used T2 ammo for the turrets because the faction ammo was worse, all of it. Whereas the faction ammo for HM has higher dps numbers than precision. I chose to not use Fury, since it will "only" go to 47km.
I mean I'd be glad to use faction ammo on the turrets if you want to see even lower numbers for turrets that don't really reflect the best ammo choice.
Turret deal with transversal just the same, that's why not many people compare it. The difference is, missiles dont miss more often the closer the target is to you. They miss based off the targets speed and not his transversal velocity.
Either way I'd love to see the ammo types that were used when someone first quoted the numbers, since I can almost guarantee it was the close range tech 2 ammo for the turrets. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:13:00 -
[120] - Quote
lovatus wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:sabre906 wrote: You sound as if HMs do more dps than short range guns, when in fact, they do less dps than long range guns. That's before exp radius and exp velocity were taken into account, which are the real nerfs. ..
Yeah, that's not at all what I said. I'm pointing out why people are complaining. HM's should do less damage than short range weapons, because they are a long range weapon.They do slightly less (if your numbers are even correct) than long range turrets because turrets can miss. There are only 2 ways you will miss with a missile: you're shooting at something too far away, or your target is moving faster than the missile. the hole in your logic is that hml's also got a 25% range reduction, putting them at a rather distinct disadvantage compared to the other long range weapon groups They fall toward the end falloff range for turrets now after skills are applied, and missile skills give greater range affect helping achieve this. they maintain consistent output, unlike the other systems in falloff and using faction ammo they beat T2 long range ammo for raw DPS output. |
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:14:00 -
[121] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:
Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo
Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs
If the case is that my client is inaccurate, taking 10% off of the figure above should give us the current damage.
90% of 12.9 = 11.61 Still better than it's peers. Let's not mention the advantage that missiles have as targets get closer to your ship, should that situation arise.
I'm not sure what math y'all are using.
Here's what I'm getting.(unbonused)
HML II + Fury = 14.4 dps @ 14.1km HBL II + Gleam = 17 @ 6+8km 250mm II + Javelin = 16 @ 7.2+12km 720mm II + Quake = 13 @ 6+18km
With long range ammo HML II + Navy = 12.6 @ 28.1km HBL II + Aurora = 10 @ 43+8 250mm II + Spike = 9 @ 52+12 720mm II + Tremor = 8 @ 43+18
Based on this, fury is slightly second to last in high dps, and second to last in range With ranged ammo, Navy is ahead in dps, but WAY behind on range. Almost half the range of other long range ammo.
If anything nerf navy hml damage to t1 damage, but cut the range nerf. That would sound resonably fair considering we're at the bottom of the pack in 3 out of 4 sections. |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:16:00 -
[122] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Artillery requirements, yes. 425 AC + 1600 plate fits or some 220 AC + 2 med neut + 1600 plate fits not so much. Also none of these were PvE fits and the cane even before not a lvl 4 go to for newer pilots. Tengu pilots realistically should have the skills to get the most out of their launchers to begin with and have a bonus to make HAM's more workable should they go that route. In fact I'd like to know from a tengu pilot if that does work.
Allowing the cane to fit arty's is actually a very powerful buff, expecially for mission running. Even more so when you consider that unlike the drake and tengu, the cane is not limited to bonuses of one damage type. Silk daShocka wrote: So, do you have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km?
The issue was not with hmls, but with the drake and tengu. that said, the drake and tengu will probably get rebalanced with substantial nerfs. So, if they don't refund the damage and range nerfs that came along with hmls on these two ships, then they'll become useless. With these nerfs has come nothing but the loss of hmls as an effective weapon system on strategic cruisers and battlecruisers. This doesn't too much effect cruisers themselves because many of them can't target that far anyway. You'll see, the only thing that will change with drake and tengu fleet doctrines is that they'll either be abolished, or they'll fit hams. Truthfully, hams drake and expecially tengus will pwn now. My tengu fit that I used in missions had roughly 721 dps with a hm-705 implant. However, if I took that same fit and put hams on it I would have had 838 dps, cap stable with a 10mn afterburner and a target painter. Now, that fit will have even more damage. Close to, if not over 900 dps, plus the bonus of guided missile precision. That's on top of being cap stable, 536m/s, 150m sig, and an omni tank with 334 pure em at its weakest. Imagine if I fit mission specific resists. Oh, and that has a target painter. So, if you really feel that hmls were the problem, think again. So what your saying, is that you don't have a loki fit that does comparable dps at 70km. Ok gotcha. Or you can think of it this way: he doesn't have a tengu fit that does more than half a loki's applied dps at 30km. Why don't you go in game, load a hml, shoot a rat, and see how much of that paper dps you get, at any range.
The irony is that he mentioned that he has a HAM tengu fit that does 838 dps with a TP. Pretty sure that it will do at least half a loki's applied dps at 30km.
|
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:19:00 -
[123] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:
Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo
Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs
If the case is that my client is inaccurate, taking 10% off of the figure above should give us the current damage.
90% of 12.9 = 11.61 Still better than it's peers. Let's not mention the advantage that missiles have as targets get closer to your ship, should that situation arise.
I'm not sure what math y'all are using. Here's what I'm getting.(unbonused) HML II + Fury = 14.4 dps @ 14.1km HBL II + Gleam = 17 @ 6+8km 250mm II + Javelin = 16 @ 7.2+12km 720mm II + Quake = 13 @ 6+18km With long range ammo HML II + Navy = 12.6 @ 28.1km HBL II + Aurora = 10 @ 43+8 250mm II + Spike = 9 @ 52+12 720mm II + Tremor = 8 @ 43+18 Based on this, fury is slightly second to last in high dps, and second to last in range With ranged ammo, Navy is ahead in dps, but WAY behind on range. Almost half the range of other long range ammo. If anything nerf navy hml damage to t1 damage, but cut the range nerf. That would sound resonably fair considering we're at the bottom of the pack in 3 out of 4 sections.
Indeed, however having half-decent missile skills, which you probalby wil have if you are using heavy missiles, brings the range up much more than gunnery skills will (almost triple)
edit: also i agree, the range nerf could have been without. If anything IMO the range bonus on tengus sub should have been toned down. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:19:00 -
[124] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:
Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo
Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs
If the case is that my client is inaccurate, taking 10% off of the figure above should give us the current damage.
90% of 12.9 = 11.61 Still better than it's peers. Let's not mention the advantage that missiles have as targets get closer to your ship, should that situation arise.
I'm not sure what math y'all are using. Here's what I'm getting.(unbonused) HML II + Fury = 14.4 dps @ 14.1km HBL II + Gleam = 17 @ 6+8km 250mm II + Javelin = 16 @ 7.2+12km 720mm II + Quake = 13 @ 6+18km With long range ammo HML II + Navy = 12.6 @ 28.1km HBL II + Aurora = 10 @ 43+8 250mm II + Spike = 9 @ 52+12 720mm II + Tremor = 8 @ 43+18 Based on this, fury is slightly second to last in high dps, and second to last in range With ranged ammo, Navy is ahead in dps, but WAY behind on range. Almost half the range of other long range ammo. If anything nerf navy hml damage to t1 damage, but cut the range nerf. That would sound resonably fair considering we're at the bottom of the pack in 3 out of 4 sections. No bonus comparisons favor turrets for range as their skills only bonus part of the range and do not complement each other. Both missiles skills affect the entire range and do complement each other. Also consider damage degradation due to falloff, which missiles do not have. |
Sal Trent
Black Carbon Industries The Paganism Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:23:00 -
[125] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:
Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo
Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs
If the case is that my client is inaccurate, taking 10% off of the figure above should give us the current damage.
90% of 12.9 = 11.61 Still better than it's peers. Let's not mention the advantage that missiles have as targets get closer to your ship, should that situation arise.
I'm not sure what math y'all are using. Here's what I'm getting.(unbonused) HML II + Fury = 14.4 dps @ 14.1km HBL II + Gleam = 17 @ 6+8km 250mm II + Javelin = 16 @ 7.2+12km 720mm II + Quake = 13 @ 6+18km With long range ammo HML II + Navy = 12.6 @ 28.1km HBL II + Aurora = 10 @ 43+8 250mm II + Spike = 9 @ 52+12 720mm II + Tremor = 8 @ 43+18 Based on this, fury is slightly second to last in high dps, and second to last in range With ranged ammo, Navy is ahead in dps, but WAY behind on range. Almost half the range of other long range ammo. If anything nerf navy hml damage to t1 damage, but cut the range nerf. That would sound resonably fair considering we're at the bottom of the pack in 3 out of 4 sections. No bonus comparisons favor turrets for range as their skills only bonus part of the range and do not complement each other. Both missiles skills affect the entire range and do complement each other. Also consider damage degradation due to falloff, which missiles do not have.
Your all talking about HAMs but even with the changes HAMs are usless for PvE and there is more changes then JUST the HM missile nerf which everyone seems to be focused on. CCP also maded changes (in the fourm of nerfs) to EW. Yet they talk of "balancing" and they just screwed over an entire race in a single patch...quite ironic actualy |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
151
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:26:00 -
[126] - Quote
you dont seem to getting my point with the transversal/explosion velocity
at short range a targets HIGH speed makes a gun and a missile more likely to miss at medium range+ the gun has improved tracking capabilities, whilst the missile continues to miss irrespective of range at a guns long range it barely has any issues at with hitting, the missile continues to miss
guns have 0 travel time, they fire the target is hit part of a missiles range is its travel time
whilst CCP continue to call a missile/rocket hybrid 'missiles' and perpetually dither over actually fixing them missiles will always be abysmal.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1900
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:27:00 -
[127] - Quote
Meh.
You can still speed tank a Drake against other missile boats and take advantage of 7 tubes.
yeah I wrote that |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:29:00 -
[128] - Quote
Sal Trent wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:
Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo
Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs
If the case is that my client is inaccurate, taking 10% off of the figure above should give us the current damage.
90% of 12.9 = 11.61 Still better than it's peers. Let's not mention the advantage that missiles have as targets get closer to your ship, should that situation arise.
I'm not sure what math y'all are using. Here's what I'm getting.(unbonused) HML II + Fury = 14.4 dps @ 14.1km HBL II + Gleam = 17 @ 6+8km 250mm II + Javelin = 16 @ 7.2+12km 720mm II + Quake = 13 @ 6+18km With long range ammo HML II + Navy = 12.6 @ 28.1km HBL II + Aurora = 10 @ 43+8 250mm II + Spike = 9 @ 52+12 720mm II + Tremor = 8 @ 43+18 Based on this, fury is slightly second to last in high dps, and second to last in range With ranged ammo, Navy is ahead in dps, but WAY behind on range. Almost half the range of other long range ammo. If anything nerf navy hml damage to t1 damage, but cut the range nerf. That would sound resonably fair considering we're at the bottom of the pack in 3 out of 4 sections. No bonus comparisons favor turrets for range as their skills only bonus part of the range and do not complement each other. Both missiles skills affect the entire range and do complement each other. Also consider damage degradation due to falloff, which missiles do not have. Your all talking about HAMs but even with the changes HAMs are usless for PvE and there is more changes then JUST the HM missile nerf which everyone seems to be focused on. CCP also maded changes (in the fourm of nerfs) to EW. Yet they talk of "balancing" and they just screwed over an entire race in a single patch...quite ironic actualy
There was no mention of HAMs in the posts you quoted... |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:29:00 -
[129] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Meh. You can still speed tank a Drake against other missile boats and take advantage of 7 tubes. yeah I wrote that
well thats ok then, let me know how you get on.... |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
167
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:32:00 -
[130] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:you dont seem to getting my point with the transversal/explosion velocity
at short range a targets HIGH speed makes a gun and a missile more likely to miss at medium range+ the gun has improved tracking capabilities, whilst the missile continues to miss irrespective of range at a guns long range it barely has any issues at with hitting, the missile continues to miss
guns have 0 travel time, they fire the target is hit part of a missiles range is its travel time
whilst CCP continue to call a missile/rocket hybrid 'missiles' and perpetually dither over actually fixing them missiles will always be abysmal.
Missiles will hit everything that is going slow enough for them to hit at any range.
Guns lose tracking the closer the target gets to you, provided the target maintains a transversal velocity.
So they both do have a strength related to hitting targets that are moving.
Also for a heavy missile to miss completely at short range, your target has to be going more than 6450 m/s. Yes I understand the damage will be reduced, but you do still hit, none of the long range turrets can say they will hit a target moving this fast at close range.
If missiles are so abysmal, then why was the Golem such a strong pick in the new eden open? |
|
Liandri Jenquai
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:36:00 -
[131] - Quote
Complaining about not doing that much dps at 113km is ridiculous. Legion has to get in your face to do the same amount.
Things are actually BALANCED now. |
Bilboz
Essentia Torva PNG Associates
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:36:00 -
[132] - Quote
What CCP calls Game devlopment we call Class ****.Several classes of ships a class of weapon all nerfed to the point of useless.Your choices are the same for all us former drake pilots..1.Thank CCP for the butt secks sans lube write off most of your sp's and go play Hello Kitty island while you retrain all the while paying ccp its 15 bucks a month. 2 tell CCP to shove it,close account and find another mmo.For all you drake haters laugh it up your turn is coming soon. |
Lance Rossiter
CHAINS Corp
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:39:00 -
[133] - Quote
I got to play with the Caracal earlier, as I found a level 3 DED complex that wouldn't admit my Drake.
I thought it performed very smoothly, I got a lot of benefit out of the extra slots and the increased speed. I was using Rapid Lights, however, so it wasn't impacted by the Heavy Missile nerf and instead got to enjoy the light missile buff.
I'm also building components for a Kestrel, to test it out in PvP. It looks like it should be a decent little ship now. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:41:00 -
[134] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:
Heavy Beam Laser II Using aurora ammo 9.6 dps 250MM Railgun II Using Spike ammo 9.11 dps Heavy Missile Launcher II using 12.9 dps using faction ammo
Is what I get using Pyfa that is suposed to be updated for Retribution. Either my client isn't accurate, or you are using short range ammo and comparing it to HML. I'm fairly certain the short range ammo on these turrets has range that's comparable to HAMs, not HMLs
If the case is that my client is inaccurate, taking 10% off of the figure above should give us the current damage.
90% of 12.9 = 11.61 Still better than it's peers. Let's not mention the advantage that missiles have as targets get closer to your ship, should that situation arise.
I'm not sure what math y'all are using. Here's what I'm getting.(unbonused) HML II + Fury = 14.4 dps @ 14.1km HBL II + Gleam = 17 @ 6+8km 250mm II + Javelin = 16 @ 7.2+12km 720mm II + Quake = 13 @ 6+18km With long range ammo HML II + Navy = 12.6 @ 28.1km HBL II + Aurora = 10 @ 43+8 250mm II + Spike = 9 @ 52+12 720mm II + Tremor = 8 @ 43+18 Based on this, fury is slightly second to last in high dps, and second to last in range With ranged ammo, Navy is ahead in dps, but WAY behind on range. Almost half the range of other long range ammo. If anything nerf navy hml damage to t1 damage, but cut the range nerf. That would sound resonably fair considering we're at the bottom of the pack in 3 out of 4 sections. No bonus comparisons favor turrets for range as their skills only bonus part of the range and do not complement each other. Both missiles skills affect the entire range and do complement each other. Also consider damage degradation due to falloff, which missiles do not have.
factoring all skills lvl 5 and not fitted to a specific ship
hml II + navy = (roughly) 26 @ 64km.
This would make it the highest dps, but very close to equal range with HBL II.
Now, with high damage ammo, HML's with fury will have roughly 29 @ 32km
That's roughly equal in dps to close range arty. Now, not only can all by havy beams out range hmls, but beams and rails can out dps at close range, with long range guns.
This essentially makes hmls low dps at close range, and high dps at mid range with no long range. Again, HBL's do have the same long range, and with less dps, but much more effective close range.
The one thing missiles had going for them was that they could out range turrets. Now they cannot compete.
Now, with lasers you have to be within 23km with navy xray to out dps fury missiles. Rails can out range, or out dps within 23km using navy plutonium. (best to out range so they dont' take any damage) And Arty can out range.
This leaves hmls with a very small window in which they overpower either turret type.
beam past 23km, but only up to 64km. Rails in that same window and arty from 0 to 64km.
this may seem decent, but considering it's very unlikely for a fight to stay within my prime range, then I'm screwed. |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:41:00 -
[135] - Quote
[/quote]
Missiles will hit everything that is going slow enough for them to hit at any range.
Guns lose tracking the closer the target gets to you, provided the target maintains a transversal velocity.
So they both do have a strength related to hitting targets that are moving.
Also for a heavy missile to miss completely at short range, your target has to be going more than 6450 m/s. Yes I understand the damage will be reduced, but you do still hit, none of the long range turrets can say they will hit a target moving this fast at close range.
If missiles are so abysmal, then why was the Golem such a strong pick in the new eden open?[/quote] possibly because the changes had not been implemented then
|
Lili Lu
608
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
Bilboz wrote:What CCP calls Game devlopment we call Class ****.Several classes of ships a class of weapon all nerfed to the point of useless.Your choices are the same for all us former drake pilots..1.Thank CCP for the butt secks sans lube write off most of your sp's and go play Hello Kitty island while you retrain all the while paying ccp its 15 bucks a month. 2 tell CCP to shove it,close account and find another mmo.For all you drake haters laugh it up your turn is coming soon. Tears, anger, grrr grrr!
What, you mean like the Myrm? It was nerfed right away. That it took 4 years to nerf the Drake (or more correctly, HMs), count yourself lucky. Oh and it ain't over yet. The BC rebalance is coming. Cane already got a direct nerf in this patch. I think you will need to take some relaxants to survive the next round that will affect the abomination that has been the Drake.
Or, yeah, do as you threaten. Leave the game. You won't be missed. You apparently learned nothing in this game. It's about specialization and diversification. Imagine that, both at the same time. It can be done. |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
168
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:51:00 -
[137] - Quote
lovatus wrote:possibly because the changes had not been implemented then
The golem does not use Heavy missiles (well it could, but it generally isn't fitted with them). I believe Cruise were buffed, which if I'm not mistaken is what was being used on most of hte golems in the tournament. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:55:00 -
[138] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:
If missiles are so abysmal, then why was the Golem such a strong pick in the new eden open?
The golem was a strong pick for 3 reasons
1) the first round they had shown up in, they came with torps, a spider tank, and were unexpected. however, due to slow speed, short range, and massive exp radius, they were not able to down the entire fleet.
2) The second fight they were in they did amazingly well for a few reasons, banning out ecm, way unexpected, even more unexpected with cruise missiles.
3) The third round in which they showed up was the same as the second round. No one expected that perticular team to use them, and no one expected cruise missiles.
There were many ways this could have been countered, however, due to lack of expectation of golems, and the banning of ecm, these didn't happen.
and they are ECM Long range, high tank turret boats Close range, high dps, high tank The standard Sleipnir fleet. A damp fleet with mid/long range turrets/missiles
There are many more ways the golem fleets could have been spanked like a puppy that tinkled on the floor.
However, due to limited points, limited knowledge, and one MAJOR FACTOR.
That is that one one expected the crap tastic Golem to show up. So, they didn't bother to train against them and came out completely unprepared.
It's not that the Golem is soooo powerful, it's that they came out with exactly the opposite of what they would need to beat Golem's.
That said, this thread is really more about hmls anyway, which got their @sses handed to them in the New Eden Open, and that was pre-nerf. (granted some people did fly out of the arena.)
That just goes to show that hmls aren't OP, but when you have a mass fleet of drakes/tengus why would you not die quickly? I'll easily say, tengu OP, drake slightly OP due to ehp, but HML's, not OP. |
Lili Lu
608
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:00:00 -
[139] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: factoring all skills lvl 5 and not fitted to a specific ship
hml II + navy = (roughly) 26 @ 64km.
This would make it the highest dps, but very close to equal range with HBL II.
Now, with high damage ammo, HML's with fury will have roughly 29 @ 32km
That's roughly equal in dps to close range arty. Now, not only can all by havy beams out range hmls, but beams and rails can out dps at close range, with long range guns.
This essentially makes hmls low dps at close range, and high dps at mid range with no long range. Again, HBL's do have the same long range, and with less dps, but much more effective close range.
The one thing missiles had going for them was that they could out range turrets. Now they cannot compete.
Now, with lasers you have to be within 23km with navy xray to out dps fury missiles. Rails can out range, or out dps within 23km using navy plutonium. (best to out range so they dont' take any damage) And Arty can out range.
This leaves hmls with a very small window in which they overpower either turret type.
beam past 23km, but only up to 64km. Rails in that same window and arty from 0 to 64km.
this may seem decent, but considering it's very unlikely for a fight to stay within my prime range, then I'm screwed.
Some questions with your post. Navy what? Multifreak? Navy multifreak does not have a range of 64km in Heavy Beams. You have to put aurora in the heavy beams to hit at 64km.
Also, how are you figuring falloff? Beams have a very short falloff. Their damage decreases rapidly past optimal.
I don't know whether you were paying attention to these changes while they were presented and open for comment in F&I discussion. But the idea with HMs now ia that Precision and Fury have reduced range for performance enhancments as to their chosen targets. Faction HMs are for range use now. And I'm pretty sure that Faction HMs are better than Faction Radio and even Aurora.
Regardless, when TC and TEs start affecting missile explosion parameters and range we will see how the balance appears again. If it seems like an overnerf now to you, it may be rather less when those changes take effect. |
Galaxy Pig
Red Galaxy Persona Non Gratis
219
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:10:00 -
[140] - Quote
OP actually posted under the assumption that the nonsense he's heard is true and caldari are no longer a viable race and everyone should jump ship. Derp. |
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:17:00 -
[141] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: factoring all skills lvl 5 and not fitted to a specific ship
hml II + navy = (roughly) 26 @ 64km.
This would make it the highest dps, but very close to equal range with HBL II.
Now, with high damage ammo, HML's with fury will have roughly 29 @ 32km
That's roughly equal in dps to close range arty. Now, not only can all by havy beams out range hmls, but beams and rails can out dps at close range, with long range guns.
This essentially makes hmls low dps at close range, and high dps at mid range with no long range. Again, HBL's do have the same long range, and with less dps, but much more effective close range.
The one thing missiles had going for them was that they could out range turrets. Now they cannot compete.
Now, with lasers you have to be within 23km with navy xray to out dps fury missiles. Rails can out range, or out dps within 23km using navy plutonium. (best to out range so they dont' take any damage) And Arty can out range.
This leaves hmls with a very small window in which they overpower either turret type.
beam past 23km, but only up to 64km. Rails in that same window and arty from 0 to 64km.
this may seem decent, but considering it's very unlikely for a fight to stay within my prime range, then I'm screwed. Some questions with your post. Navy what? Multifreak? Navy multifreak does not have a range of 64km in Heavy Beams. You have to put aurora in the heavy beams to hit at 64km. Also, how are you figuring falloff? Beams have a very short falloff. Their damage decreases rapidly past optimal. I don't know whether you were paying attention to these changes while they were presented and open for comment in F&I discussion. But the idea with HMs now ia that Precision and Fury have reduced range for performance enhancments as to their chosen targets. Faction HMs are for range use now. And I'm pretty sure that Faction HMs are better than Faction Radio and even Aurora. Regardless, when TC and TEs start affecting missile explosion parameters and range we will see how the balance appears again. If it seems like an overnerf now to you, it may be rather less when those changes take effect.
First, I said navy xray within 23km will out dps fury, and 23 is optimal, not falloff. Also, I stated that hmls will dps beam beyond 23km and they have roughly the same engagement range.
Now, I don't see how tc/te will help missiles much when they'll also be effected by td.
That said, this nerf doesn't hurt the mass tengu and drake blobs. They'll still have high ehp, but they'll only have to get closer. The only people this really hurts are those that mission in these ships, but apparently we're not important/everyone seems to think we should cross train.
Imagine if I nerfed arty and told those ppl to simply cross train? Imagine if I nerfed beams and then told those players to cross train?
Now, imagine if I nerfed the only effective weapon system out of an entire class of weapon systems.
Lets say I nerfed medium rails and they were the only effective hybrid weapon system. Wait, didn't they just fix that f*ck up not too long ago?
Oh well. Guess it's missiles turn the be the fail weapon of choice. |
Eclipse Rhade
Blades of the Exiled Angel
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:23:00 -
[142] - Quote
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great.
I dont mean to be rude but you would think that the high damage short range (HAM's) weapons should out damage the long range low damage weapons (HM) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1824
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:25:00 -
[143] - Quote
Eclipse Rhade wrote:Natassia Krasnoo wrote:I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great. I dont mean to be rude but you would think that the high damage short range (HAM's) weapons should out damage the long range low damage weapons (HM) That would imply some sort of balance, yes...
Oh surprise. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Lili Lu
608
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:31:00 -
[144] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: First, I said navy xray within 23km will out dps fury, and 23 is optimal, not falloff. Also, I stated that hmls will dps beam beyond 23km and they have roughly the same engagement range.
Now, I don't see how tc/te will help missiles much when they'll also be effected by td.
That said, this nerf doesn't hurt the mass tengu and drake blobs. They'll still have high ehp, but they'll only have to get closer. The only people this really hurts are those that mission in these ships, but apparently we're not important/everyone seems to think we should cross train.
Imagine if I nerfed arty and told those ppl to simply cross train? Imagine if I nerfed beams and then told those players to cross train?
Now, imagine if I nerfed the only effective weapon system out of an entire class of weapon systems.
Lets say I nerfed medium rails and they were the only effective hybrid weapon system. Wait, didn't they just fix that f*ck up not too long ago?
Oh well. Guess it's missiles turn the be the fail weapon of choice.
Concerning TDs, I really can't see how they cannot nerf the base stats further. They are already being used too suceesfully to neuter turret ships at the frig level on unbonused ships blessed with mids for fitting them. And I would bet the TD, similarly to the TC and TE effects on missiles will be rather muted in comparson to the current effects on turrets. Bonused TD boats will probably be worth watching out for, for every class of ship. But that is how things should be anyway.
EHP may be getting a nerf for all BCs anyway. The presented concept was normalizing all BCs around a 17 slot count. Even if it just a loss of the utility high on the Drake I would not be surprised to see the hp stats placed somewhere in between current tier 1 and tier 2 BCs. So yes, more weakening is coming to BCs most likely. They will not be nullsec backbones anymore I would bet. This makes both the newly buffed Cruisers and BSs more valuable. This is also good because BCs have been ruling the game for a long while.
Noone is telling you to crosstrain with this nerf. Cross training though is a very good strategy anyway. Noone should be in this game thinking one ship is all they need or one weapon system in order to run about any pve content and also to pvp with. That HMs and HM boats have been this has been a mistake. Enjoy finding new tools for different jobs. And Drakes will still be appropriate tools for some jobs. HMs will likely still be the best choice for ranged damage at the medium weapon size. They just won't be so much better. |
lovatus
Universal Conflict
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:39:00 -
[145] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: First, I said navy xray within 23km will out dps fury, and 23 is optimal, not falloff. Also, I stated that hmls will dps beam beyond 23km and they have roughly the same engagement range.
Now, I don't see how tc/te will help missiles much when they'll also be effected by td.
That said, this nerf doesn't hurt the mass tengu and drake blobs. They'll still have high ehp, but they'll only have to get closer. The only people this really hurts are those that mission in these ships, but apparently we're not important/everyone seems to think we should cross train.
Imagine if I nerfed arty and told those ppl to simply cross train? Imagine if I nerfed beams and then told those players to cross train?
Now, imagine if I nerfed the only effective weapon system out of an entire class of weapon systems.
Lets say I nerfed medium rails and they were the only effective hybrid weapon system. Wait, didn't they just fix that f*ck up not too long ago?
Oh well. Guess it's missiles turn the be the fail weapon of choice. Concerning TDs, I really can't see how they cannot nerf the base stats further. They are already being used too suceesfully to neuter turret ships at the frig level on unbonused ships blessed with mids for fitting them. And I would bet the TD, similarly to the TC and TE effects on missiles will be rather muted in comparson to the current effects on turrets. Bonused TD boats will probably be worth watching out for, for every class of ship. But that is how things should be anyway. EHP may be getting a nerf for all BCs anyway. The presented concept was normalizing all BCs around a 17 slot count. Even if it just a loss of the utility high on the Drake I would not be surprised to see the hp stats placed somewhere in between current tier 1 and tier 2 BCs. So yes, more weakening is coming to BCs most likely. They will not be nullsec backbones anymore I would bet. This makes both the newly buffed Cruisers and BSs more valuable. This is also good because BCs have been ruling the game for a long while. Noone is telling you to crosstrain with this nerf. Cross training though is a very good strategy anyway. Noone should be in this game thinking one ship is all they need or one weapon system in order to run about any pve content and also to pvp with. That HMs and HM boats have been this has been a mistake. Enjoy finding new tools for different jobs. And Drakes will still be appropriate tools for some jobs. HMs will likely still be the best choice for ranged damage at the medium weapon size. They just won't be so much better.
id like to know what jobs you think HM's will still be good for? they no longer have the advantage of range (drake using scourge furies ets 35km MAX) they no longer have damage and they were bottom of the pile for rate of fire anyway. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:42:00 -
[146] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: First, I said navy xray within 23km will out dps fury, and 23 is optimal, not falloff. Also, I stated that hmls will dps beam beyond 23km and they have roughly the same engagement range.
Now, I don't see how tc/te will help missiles much when they'll also be effected by td.
That said, this nerf doesn't hurt the mass tengu and drake blobs. They'll still have high ehp, but they'll only have to get closer. The only people this really hurts are those that mission in these ships, but apparently we're not important/everyone seems to think we should cross train.
Imagine if I nerfed arty and told those ppl to simply cross train? Imagine if I nerfed beams and then told those players to cross train?
Now, imagine if I nerfed the only effective weapon system out of an entire class of weapon systems.
Lets say I nerfed medium rails and they were the only effective hybrid weapon system. Wait, didn't they just fix that f*ck up not too long ago?
Oh well. Guess it's missiles turn the be the fail weapon of choice. Concerning TDs, I really can't see how they cannot nerf the base stats further. They are already being used too suceesfully to neuter turret ships at the frig level on unbonused ships blessed with mids for fitting them. And I would bet the TD, similarly to the TC and TE effects on missiles will be rather muted in comparson to the current effects on turrets. Bonused TD boats will probably be worth watching out for, for every class of ship. But that is how things should be anyway. EHP may be getting a nerf for all BCs anyway. The presented concept was normalizing all BCs around a 17 slot count. Even if it just a loss of the utility high on the Drake I would not be surprised to see the hp stats placed somewhere in between current tier 1 and tier 2 BCs. So yes, more weakening is coming to BCs most likely. They will not be nullsec backbones anymore I would bet. This makes both the newly buffed Cruisers and BSs more valuable. This is also good because BCs have been ruling the game for a long while. Noone is telling you to crosstrain with this nerf. Cross training though is a very good strategy anyway. Noone should be in this game thinking one ship is all they need or one weapon system in order to run about any pve content and also to pvp with. That HMs and HM boats have been this has been a mistake. Enjoy finding new tools for different jobs. And Drakes will still be appropriate tools for some jobs. HMs will likely still be the best choice for ranged damage at the medium weapon size. They just won't be so much better.
Well, I would assume that in the case of the drake, this nerf will kill it's use as a HML boat. Honestly, most drake fleets aren't exactly sitting at 80km killing targets.. So odds are they'll just fit hams with a ham buff, and the ehp of the drake, they'll be really powerful.
As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means. This truly only effects mission runners. They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit. |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
169
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:53:00 -
[147] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means. This truly only effects mission runners. They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.
If you think it only effects mission runners, you clearly have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:58:00 -
[148] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means. This truly only effects mission runners. They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.
If you think it only effects mission runners, you clearly have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them.
Naa, they will still have 5-600 dps at up to 80km.
That's still pretty effective.
That said though, with hams they're looking at 800 dps or more with rage using 4 bcu and to be honest, many of the ships involved will be within 30km anyway. |
HydroSan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:58:00 -
[149] - Quote
At least the AI doesn't kill all of your missiles making them useless! |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
169
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 01:06:00 -
[150] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means. This truly only effects mission runners. They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.
If you think it only effects mission runners, you clearly have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them. Naa, they will still have 5-600 dps at up to 80km. That's still pretty effective. That said though, with hams they're looking at 800 dps or more with rage using 4 bcu and to be honest, many of the ships involved will be within 30km anyway.
So, what your saying is that, you have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them.
I mean I'm just trying to point out that this will affect more than just mission runners, contrary to your claim. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1827
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 01:10:00 -
[151] - Quote
HydroSan wrote:At least the AI doesn't kill all of your missiles making them useless! Smartbombing ships. It'll also make your drones die even faster, bonus~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 01:13:00 -
[152] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Silk daShocka wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: As far as the Tengu, this HML nerf won't kill hml tengus in pvp by any means. This truly only effects mission runners. They'll still have over 600 dps with bs tank, cruiser size and velocity, and the versatility that is given to t3's, plus the 100mn ab fit.
If you think it only effects mission runners, you clearly have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them. Naa, they will still have 5-600 dps at up to 80km. That's still pretty effective. That said though, with hams they're looking at 800 dps or more with rage using 4 bcu and to be honest, many of the ships involved will be within 30km anyway. So, what your saying is that, you have no clue that alot of alliances will either be modifying their tengu doctrines, or just outright abandoning them. I mean I'm just trying to point out that this will affect more than just mission runners, contrary to your claim.
As far as drake doctrines, hell yes... The drake is out.
Honestly I don't think CCP thought that one through.... Sure, they needed to do something to break the drake blobs, however, they're basically making the drake good for nothing more than a high sec war dec against easy targets while using hams.
The tengu on the other hand. I don't feel the nerf really hurts the tengu all that much outside of pve. That said though, there may be alliances that drop their tengu doctrines just because of the range nerf alone. I don't think the dps is as big a factor for the tengu, but the range is devistating.
However, I don't think it kills the tengu. There may be some alliances that drop their tengu doctrines, but at least the tengu will still be effective in fleet combat.
The drake though is dead outside of hams in high sec. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 01:15:00 -
[153] - Quote
HydroSan wrote:At least the AI doesn't kill all of your missiles making them useless!
If npcs dampen your optimal, then yes.
However, tracking disruption directly doesn't make much difference against approaching npcs cause they're too dumb to use tactical approaching.
However, against all other ewar types, missiles are just as effected. |
Kanta Kansene
Agentes in rebus Relativity Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 01:27:00 -
[154] - Quote
I haven't had a chance to try missioning since the patch went live, but if I find that I have difficulties in my drake, I guess that's more reason for me to either use my CNR or work on gunnery skills and use any of the other battlecruisers that everyone has trained for to avoid having to train racial battlecruisers |
Trin Ellecon
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:09:00 -
[155] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:gu, but the range is devistating.
However, I don't think it kills the tengu. There may be some alliances that drop their tengu doctrines, but at least the tengu will still be effective in fleet combat.
The drake though is dead outside of hams in high sec. Are you kidding? The drake still has an incredible tank and with HAMs can throw out great damage. All that's happened is the drake has shifted to being a better gate brawling boat. |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
308
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:28:00 -
[156] - Quote
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:I spoke to an individual who was testing this on the test servers and they essentially said the HM nerf hammer was way too strong. They are barely, (and he heavily emphasized barely a couple times), above the power of HAMs now. He said the difference was actually minute and that HAMs ROF may put them over the top. I myself haven't had the time to test this, so if anyone could confirm this it would be great.
Because a missile of the same weight class with half the range of the other should do less damage as well. They never had intentions for anyone to use HAMs. They were purely psychological in nature. You'd see how bad they were and be thankful for what the HM gave. |
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything. Clockwork Pineapple
3
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Posted - 2012.12.05 09:32:00 -
[157] - Quote
Baww, its literally the end of the world because I have to adapt to a new system. |
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
183
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:35:00 -
[158] - Quote
Quit Whining The only thing that got nerfed were the OP Heavy Missiles, which were better at range and damage projection than any other comprable weapon system. CCP nerfing them was long time coming.
I transferred to Amarr ships months ago, not due to the missile changes, but because missiles are slow to kill things, 99% of the time don't have EM bonuses, which is the effective damage type of our rats. Amarr ships are much better because my ammunition costs are next to nothing per rat kill.
Sometimes I wish I didn't train for Caldari ships. Amarr is way better at PvE out here AND their skills transfer to PvP well.
TL;DR Amarr fits PB better than Caldari
ihcn wrote:Baww, its literally the end of the world because I have to adapt to a new system.
/thread I Endorse this Product and/or Service Source Recorder-esque tool for EVE |
Goran Konjich
Shiva Furnace
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:44:00 -
[159] - Quote
So yeah. Missiles will be useful as before. Stop complaining about nothing please <> |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
559
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:45:00 -
[160] - Quote
Tarn Kugisa wrote:Quit Whining The only thing that got nerfed were the OP Heavy Missiles, which were better at range and damage projection than any other comprable weapon system. CCP nerfing them was long time coming. I transferred to Amarr ships months ago, not due to the missile changes, but because missiles are slow to kill things, 99% of the time don't have EM bonuses, which is the effective damage type of our rats. Amarr ships are much better because my ammunition costs are next to nothing per rat kill. Sometimes I wish I didn't train for Caldari ships. Amarr is way better at PvE out here AND their skills transfer to PvP well. TL;DR Amarr fits PB better than Caldari ihcn wrote:Baww, its literally the end of the world because I have to adapt to a new system. /thread
"Quit whining about Caldari sucking !"
"By the way I switched to Amarr from Caldari because missiles suck."
FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
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M1k3y Koontz
Blackened Skies Nulli Secunda
69
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 11:36:00 -
[161] - Quote
Pretty much EVERYTHING but HMLs is being buffed
Train HAMs and stop whininig is all I have to say to people giving up on drake/tengu etc. HAM drake is lolOP now anyway...
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Dark Long
solo and loveing it
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 13:31:00 -
[162] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Kali Starchaser wrote:So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice? So you have ignored the 2 months of consultation and testing and now you want others to tell you whats going on? Missiles are just being brought more in line with other damage systems, and while heavy missiles are getting nerfed assaults/rockets/torpedos are all getting big buffs. Cruise will still be broken but ccp will fix them when they rebalance bs early next year. In a nut shell the heavy missiles are getting thier range and damage cut, hams/torps/rockets will now be effected by TNP and all missiles are getting increased velocity with flight time cut to keep range roughly the same. Tengu will still be better than anything else sub bs for pretty much all pve, and won't really have a missile competitor till cruise are fixed. Drake will be a bit less obviously better than all other long range bcs (tho hamdrake is sexed up). Nighthawk and cerberus will be more broken than now, but are due a major overhaul anyway. There are other tidbits like fury becoming more about short range pwnage of big stuff and precisions actually being useful. If you were to change to amarr or gallente medium long range turrets you would find just how easy mode heavy missiles have been.
Tengu better for all pve lol son you have something to learn about the tengu for level 4 its not even in the top 5 for level 4's plex still might be tops but for level 4 tengu so no match for a bs in level 4 were can a tengu match 1360 dps mach in a mission. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
48
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Posted - 2012.12.05 14:41:00 -
[163] - Quote
You could have done the smart thing and crosstrained ahead of time.
Not that it's necessary. Heavy missiles are still plenty powerful, I have to fly towards my target occasionally, now, but that's not so bad, and even if there was a sig radius nerf, precisions got buffed.
Tengu is still a mean piece of work. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 17:27:00 -
[164] - Quote
Dark Long wrote:
Tengu better for all pve lol son you have something to learn about the tengu for level 4 its not even in the top 5 for level 4's plex still might be tops but for level 4 tengu so no match for a bs in level 4 were can a tengu match 1360 dps mach in a mission.
Tengu WAS the most effective missile boat for lvl 4 missions. It had good range with hmls, good dps, awesome tank, and cruiser class size and speed.
Sure, it's OP, but I don't blame that on heavy missiles.
Anyone blaming the OP nature of tengus and drakes on hmls needs to go to special education.
The drake had massive ehp. Most of the time when I face a drake that is actually a problem it's cause they're ham fitted, not hml.
With the tengu, it's everything and not at all the fault of hmls. Tengu gets massive dps bonus, and massive range bonus. Tanks better than many bs's. Can fit 100mn afterburners. Versatility of subsystems. Over 800 dps with hams.
If you thought a hml tengu was a problem than just try taking on a ham tengu. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
424
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 23:59:00 -
[165] - Quote
Drake doctrine need not change. When 200 drakes primary you, you're just as dead no matter how little dmg each does. These 200 drakes still have just as much buffer as before. 25% range decrease just means slightly smaller part of the blob is in range, you're still just as dead against the blob.
Drakes are far overtanked and underdpsed. CCP should have massively nerfed Drake buffer which would have killed drake blobs, but opted to butcher noob missionrunners instead. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
ale rico
Calamitous-Intent
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 19:30:00 -
[166] - Quote
My problem with the nerf is... was damage ever the issue with heavy missiles? I don't seem to recall the hml drake or the tengu being praised for their dps. I agree with the range nerf as it brings it in line with the rest of the BCs but come on...
By the way, HAMS should not outdamage HMLs they should out DPS them due to the better rate of fire. Like any of the other weapon systems in game, longer range gets the better alpha.
http://seventwo.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15402916
Took me 47 volleys with 5 launchers to do that much damage to that poor thing (meaning I had to reload and fire again...). If this is what they mean by "working as intended" I guess the intention is to remove heavy missiles from pvp.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
304
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:03:00 -
[167] - Quote
Now that I have the new EFT.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359
The numbers on the tengu aren't as bad as you'd think.
a tengu with 6x hml II and 4x CN BCU goes from 715 dps to 678 dps with rage, which isn't too bad.
However, it loses range down to 70.8km from 113.9km.
Wait...looking at it further it looks like something may be wrong with the new eft.
From what I understood of the patch notes fury and precision were supposed to have the same ranges, however, precision drops to 47.2 km, so i'm wondering if eft isn't messed up. |
Olga Ivanovna
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:09:00 -
[168] - Quote
Just went for some missioning with the HML Tengu. I was surprised to find that it works almost as good as before with HML - except for some annoyance with range. I can live with it.
So no problems, the Tengu is still fine! |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
304
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:12:00 -
[169] - Quote
Olga Ivanovna wrote:Just went for some missioning with the HML Tengu. I was surprised to find that it works almost as good as before with HML - except for some annoyance with range. I can live with it.
So no problems, the Tengu is still fine!
What's your range with fury missiles?
Cause I get the feeling the new EFT is f'd up and didn't factor the 50% range nerf of fury missiles to make them the same range as precision. |
Soliscout
no taxes for me
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:59:00 -
[170] - Quote
Fury range is higher then precision range...EFT tells the truth |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
391
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Posted - 2012.12.06 21:05:00 -
[171] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Now that I have the new EFT. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359The numbers on the tengu aren't as bad as you'd think. a tengu with 6x hml II and 4x CN BCU goes from 715 dps to 678 dps with fury, which isn't too bad. However, it loses range down to 70.8km from 113.9km. Wait...looking at it further it looks like something may be wrong with the new eft. From what I understood of the patch notes fury and precision were supposed to have the same ranges, however, precision drops to 47.2 km, so i'm wondering if eft isn't messed up. Fury range was reduced to 75% of the new T1 range, which is still ~50% farther than Precision IIRC. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
304
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:36:00 -
[172] - Quote
Soliscout wrote:Fury range is higher then precision range...EFT tells the truth
yeah, I got that, but it seems that the unbonused range on EFT is higher than the google doc showed. |
Arronicus
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 06:04:00 -
[173] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:BuckStrider wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:BuckStrider wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:the only thing that got nerfed are heavies, is the drake the only ship you use, being a complete chince by never fitting HAMs on it? a HAM drake is great.
HAM tengu with javelins will be pretty powerful too. Not in fleet fights. not in spam 3000 ship fights no, which is why only maelstroms ever Now that heavies are getting nerfed, you remove yet another ship from 0.0 pvp And you wonder why newer players don't want to go to 0.0 and retention is so hard Can't wait to see how many players give up using bombers because of this new (and really dumb) Micro Jump Drive Yeah, gonna eduate you a bit here. MJD has a 12 second spool up time. That means you don't move for 12 seconds after hitting the button. I'll be generous and give you a 2 second reaction time, meaning you hit the button 2 seconds after seeing the bombers decloak and launch. But, as you'll see in a moment, even if you hit it perfectly your reaction time does not matter. Bombs detonate 10 seconds after launch. So unless you hit the button at least 3 seconds before the guy fires the bomb, you're still going to get hit. In which case, unless you're in a freighter, you would have warped out by then anyway. Ignoring the fact that even 7 bombs, the max you can launch at one area at a time, will not kill a battleship. Ignoring the fact that you aren't going anywhere anyway if he forgoes the bomb and just decloaks next to you and tackles you. Micro Jump Drives have no bearing on stealth bombers whatsoever.
Inaccurate facts in this post. MJD has a 12 second spool up which is reduced by 5% per level of micro jump drive operation. At IV, this is roughly 9.6 seconds at 5 this a 9 second spool up. With stealth bombers, they have to decloak, then fire, there tends to be a small delay between decloaking and firing the bomb, so you really do have about 2 seconds to click the mjd, and escape successfully, if you have MJDO 5. HOWEVER, how relevant is an example of someone firing a bomb? It's not gonna pop you anyway, and supposing there are enough bombers firing bombs to pop you, yea, the first few will hit, but you'll be out before the next round goes off, so you WILL live. Micro jump drives > stealth bombers. |
Valleria Darkmoon
No Salvation
39
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 06:28:00 -
[174] - Quote
The only way you can think that Caldari ships or missiles are now useless is if you believe that Caldari = HML Drake.
Even light missiles have been buffed, wait a bit so the Corax is not 15 million ISK anymore and give a light missile Corax a go it's scary what it can do. Ravens can also get disturbing damage output but has a very hard time actually applying it and the addition of guided missile precision to torps have gone a long way to help that. The same applies to ships using HAMs. Give a HAM Drake with a web a go I'll bet it's better than you think. The reduction in grid need for HAMs has also made it easier to fit them to Caldari ships that are often lacking in grid. |
Oopsy Bear
Massively Masochistic Machos
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 06:46:00 -
[175] - Quote
I see a huge thread full of people who think the tengu is the only caldari ship. Gallente tears I could understand.
I want to find the CCP developer who made precision cruise missiles the wonderful things they are now and give him/her a hug. |
GiveMeATry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 07:08:00 -
[176] - Quote
I love how everyone says use assaults. Try running c4 sites in a drake now or break rr in a c5 or c6 with a tengu. Also show me the stats on wasted dps for missiles in flight after a ship explodes. Small buff my (insert term). |
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