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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
2290
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Go CCP Fozzie and CCP Ytterbium, they are awesome! CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2489

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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
 Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
240
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Two step wrote:Go CCP Fozzie and CCP Ytterbium, they are awesome!
seconded!  |

Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
123
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Posted - 2012.11.28 17:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well keep up the good work, and try to revamp quickly the tech2 linked to the tech1 just rebalanced. Also black ops. |

Javelin6
37
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Posted - 2012.11.28 17:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Black Ops Battleships. Make. It. Go.
SOONER. |

Krell Kroenen
Miners In Possession Brothers of Apocrypha.
83
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Posted - 2012.11.28 18:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
And hopefully the stabber gets another review sooner rather than later. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
721
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
While I do agree fozz and Frenchie are awesome... But the op lacks real content... this thread should be locked for lack of content...
Nevermind... Op will update with more info... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
843
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 01:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is likely to belong here.
Why no changes for cyno mechanics have been made for years, despite acknowledged PvP specialists clearly stating time and time again that this game area is in dire need of improvement?
CCP acknowledged long ago that 'they are not happy with hot-drops'. It's at least 14 months since then and no one even mentions this issue.
Was current CSM crew competent enough to at least bring this issue into internal discussion? CSM minutes lack any words on it. 14 |

aoeu Itonula
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.11.29 02:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Racial Cruisers that are now flat-out worse than t1 cruisers in many cases (Navy Vexor, etc) |

Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
89
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 03:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
I like the balancing for the most part, but I think combat ships are being limited too much. I'd like to see two or three versions of the same ship type but with focus on different weapon systems.
Example would be the Ferox. The current changes push the Ferox towards being a blaster sniper, but why can't there be a Ferox-M with focus on missile systems, or a Ferox-U focused on tank and speed with no weapon bonus.
I realize this would take longer to roll out to account for balancing issues, but I think having more bonused variety would be a good thing. Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |

None ofthe Above
370
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 15:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Most of the balancing, tiercide specifically, was a major win.
I am a bit concerned the upcoming HML nerf went too far. Particularly in the damage area (in the first rev it was blatant, now it's in the explosion radius), HMLs were not overpowered on damage. They were perhaps so on range, so that's easier to justify. Two hits with the nerf bat when one was perhaps called for.
Also, I still think the Racial Destroyers/Battlecruisers is still ill advised. It increases the gap between new pilot and old, and gives the old pilots nothing new except a higher clone cost. Biggest effect will be that most older pilots will be able to fly all racial subcaps (since we are all cross-training like mad) and new ones will be stuck with their own race longer (thus increasing their frustration and sense of futility in playing this game). To my mind, it solves nothing except some designer's apparent obsessive compulsive disorder to organize things in a specific way. EVE is a sandbox; The only "end-game" content in EVE is the crap that makes you rage-quit.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1048
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Posted - 2012.11.29 18:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Will Navy and Pirate faction ships be looked at before T2 hulls? As welcome as the rebalancing of T1 frigates and cruisers has been, it has left some of the faction frigs and cruisers looking a little obsolete. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |

M1k3y Koontz
Blackened Skies Nulli Secunda
56
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Posted - 2012.12.01 13:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Javelin6 wrote:Black Ops Battleships. Make. It. Go.
SOONER.
More range, less fuel! 
Seriously, to bridge a BLOPs fleet now you have to be in an all cargo expander lows battleship, and if you want to go for a second drop without refueling? Forget it.
Help spread our reign of terror to the nullbears 
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Aliventi
Southern Cross Trilogy Flying Dangerous
11
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Posted - 2012.12.01 18:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Black Ops Battleships and HACs (Caldari HACs lol) would be my top 2 to rebalance.
Also since ship balancing has spilled over somewhat in to mod balancing can we get torps, cruise missiles, and cap torps and cap CMs looked at? Also super excited for the TD buff if/when it happens. Huge buff to missile ships. In addition the T2 siege and triage modules have gone over very well. Any chance of T2 XL guns and ammo? T2 fighters/FBs? T2 cap reps and cap RR? Would make 0.0 and lowsec a lot more fun.  |

M1k3y Koontz
Blackened Skies Nulli Secunda
57
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Posted - 2012.12.02 00:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Black Ops Battleships and HACs (Caldari HACs lol) would be my top 2 to rebalance. Also since ship balancing has spilled over somewhat in to mod balancing can we get torps, cruise missiles, and cap torps and cap CMs looked at? Also super excited for the TD buff if/when it happens. Huge buff to missile ships. In addition the T2 siege and triage modules have gone over very well. Any chance of T2 XL guns and ammo? T2 fighters/FBs? T2 cap reps and cap RR? Would make 0.0 and lowsec a lot more fun. 
Capital missiles truely are terrible. A carrier can LITERALLY speed tank a Phoenix, its that bad...
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Noisrevbus
300
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 02:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Here's a novel idea: make the ships cost ISK, so losing an entire fleet of them actually have meaning in this game .
I'm trying to figure out wether we can label that as a buff or a nerf. I'll get back to you on that. |

2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
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Posted - 2012.12.02 17:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
No more new ships. we've got enough ships. For now.
What most combat ships need are more weapons systems to add variety.
No reason to trade one small group of guns for a medium group when going from frigate to cruiser for instance.
Normally ships retain all, or at least some, of the functionality of the ship they are an upgrade from.
Thus a cruiser for instance, should not only have it's medium guns, but retain an array of small guns as well. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
467
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 13:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
judging from the frigate and T1 cruiser hulls, you could not avoid a serious amount of power creep during the rebalance pass. if you're going to buff every hull and their mother, please at least be quick about it so that people don't have to fly an outclassed hull for months and months (i'm looking at you assault frigates). please also be mindful to not accidentally obsolete another hull class the way most cruisers and HACs were for the longest time.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5315
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 13:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fantastic work. Keep on doing it!
PS It can be HACS time next plox? Dat poor Eagle  MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |

Rhavas
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 16:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Fozzie and I had an all-day discussion on Twitter about this, so no need to beat the dead horse of why and how and whether T3s should be ejection blocked (we agreed to disagree, and I accept that this one would be ugly to untie from other ships), but there was one outstanding question on T3 ejection blocking. Please request an answer to his investigation into lore changes around T3s now being non-ejectable. Thanks. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
779
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Posted - 2012.12.04 19:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
2manno Asp wrote:No more new ships. we've got enough ships. For now.
What most combat ships need are more weapons systems to add variety.
No reason to trade one small group of guns for a medium group when going from frigate to cruiser for instance.
Normally ships retain all, or at least some, of the functionality of the ship they are an upgrade from.
Thus a cruiser for instance, should not only have it's medium guns, but retain an array of small guns as well.
I would be extremely sad if they implemented this.....
Going up in a class makes typically implies larger guns, better range, better damage.... but you also gain weaknesses. The BIGGEST weakness that really balances PvP in EvE: large ships have a harder time of applying their increased firepower to small, fast moving targets. This means, a fit that's optimized to kill BS's won't efficiently kill frigates, and a fit that efficiently kills frigates won't be optimized to kill BS's. |

2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 03:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Going up in a class makes typically implies larger guns, better range, better damage.... but you also gain weaknesses. The BIGGEST weakness that really balances PvP in EvE: large ships have a harder time of applying their increased firepower to small, fast moving targets. This means, a fit that's optimized to kill BS's won't efficiently kill frigates, and a fit that efficiently kills frigates won't be optimized to kill BS's.
and i would be extremely happy because, while we all get how eve works, it's damn peculiar.
nor does it explain actual mechanics. like for instance how a fighter plane might remain relavant in today's world, in spite of idk, EVERY ship having at least some anti-air component to it.
things would change sure. you might actually need to bring more smaller ships to kill that larger one, instead of soloing it. maybe yoru small ship might need some countermeasures as well.
just no more soloing ships with ships that have no rational explanation why they are soloed by them, other than, we dumped the small guns for the big ones, because we just couldn't fit a small one on this big 1000 METER LONG SHIP. DERPITY DERP.
it makes my brain hurt. it hurts everywhere. |

Noisrevbus
306
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 11:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'm not sure what you two are arguing about.
It has nothing to do with pecularity and everything to do with balance. Large ships are already generally better. There is definately some degree of balance with regards to tracking and resolutions on larger weapons, but there's definately an edge to larger ships in EVE (slots, tracking modules etc.) which will cause balance issues if it's further sharpened.
I'm not sure if we want small ships more easily killed than they already are, or if we want to spend even more development time readjusting small ships or overall weapons balance to create more extremes that would allow this sort of multi-array RP-approach. We can't just add it because it's cool and let it play out - that's been done too often already.
The problem with adding something like what you discuss - is the additional work required to implement it well.
Ontop of that, nothing stop you from fitting smaller arrays to larger ships should you want to (out of some lore-fascination). It may not be better to do so, not appealing to do so or niched where it actually applies well, but it's reasonably balanced. The turrets have various sizes with different tracking values within class, you can give up bonuses and fit smaller classes and the missiles even have class-crossing sizes and bonuses (AML). |

Bhock
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.12.05 13:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
I am overall happy of the T1 treatment... but now, much more work is needed on their T2 counterpart.
So many T2 ships are now straight downgrades from their T1 version, as slightly better bonus and more resistance are not worth the downgrade everywhere else... especially for the price-tag.
A bit of a pity that many T2 pilots will mostly fly T1 for the next 6-12 months. At least the wallet is going to be so much fatter :) (not mine, I sell T2 ships)
At least for Alliance Tournament, there will be full of T1 frigates and cruisers . unless they change the point value... but I love the support fight. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5331
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 14:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
2manno Asp wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Going up in a class makes typically implies larger guns, better range, better damage.... but you also gain weaknesses. The BIGGEST weakness that really balances PvP in EvE: large ships have a harder time of applying their increased firepower to small, fast moving targets. This means, a fit that's optimized to kill BS's won't efficiently kill frigates, and a fit that efficiently kills frigates won't be optimized to kill BS's.
and i would be extremely happy because, while we all get how eve works, it's damn peculiar. nor does it explain actual mechanics. like for instance how a fighter plane might remain relavant in today's world, in spite of idk, EVERY ship having at least some anti-air component to it. things would change sure. you might actually need to bring more smaller ships to kill that larger one, instead of soloing it. maybe yoru small ship might need some countermeasures as well. just no more soloing ships with ships that have no rational explanation why they are soloed by them, other than, we dumped the small guns for the big ones, because we just couldn't fit a small one on this big 1000 METER LONG SHIP. DERPITY DERP. it makes my brain hurt. it hurts everywhere.
Whatever realism we get from game balancing is merely a happy bonus. Game balance should never be compromised in the name of "realism". MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5331
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 14:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bhock wrote:I am overall happy of the T1 treatment... but now, much more work is needed on their T2 counterpart. So many T2 ships are now straight downgrades from their T1 version, as slightly better bonus and more resistance are not worth the downgrade everywhere else... especially for the price-tag. A bit of a pity that many T2 pilots will mostly fly T1 for the next 6-12 months. At least the wallet is going to be so much fatter :) (not mine, I sell T2 ships) At least for Alliance Tournament, there will be full of T1 frigates and cruisers  . unless they change the point value... but I love the support fight.
It's worth remembering that the original conception of T2 ships was that they were specialised, not necessarily superior.
Eg: The Zealot should be a better sniper than the Omen, but it shouldn't be better than the Omen at everything. The Omen should be able to do useful things that the Zealot can't do as well.
T2 ships shouldn't be a mandatory upgrade from T1 IMO. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |

2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Whatever realism we get from game balancing is merely a happy bonus. Game balance should never be compromised in the name of "realism".
another sophmoric response.
i'm not sure you realize that i'm expressely advocating an imbalance between ships sizes. also, i'm not sure you realize that reality is built into everything we do. almost everything about EVE, has a basis somewhere in reality. bonus question: do you know why?
it may not ultimately matters when it comes to gameplay, however reality, which you so happily appear to tolerate, serves as a very, very good benchmark.
in other words i'm saying i do not want a frigate to be "balanced" relative to a cruiser for example. |

2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:I'm not sure what you two are arguing about.
It has nothing to do with pecularity and everything to do with balance. Large ships are already generally better. There is definately some degree of balance with regards to tracking and resolutions on larger weapons, but there's definately an edge to larger ships in EVE (slots, tracking modules etc.) which will cause balance issues if it's further sharpened.
I'm not sure if we want small ships more easily killed than they already are, or if we want to spend even more development time readjusting small ships or overall weapons balance to create more extremes that would allow this sort of multi-array RP-approach. We can't just add it because it's cool and let it play out - that's been done too often already.
The problem with adding something like what you discuss - is the additional work required to implement it well.
Ontop of that, nothing stop you from fitting smaller arrays to larger ships should you want to (out of some lore-fascination). It may not be better to do so, not appealing to do so or niched where it actually applies well, but it's reasonably balanced. The turrets have various sizes with different tracking values within class, you can give up bonuses and fit smaller classes and the missiles even have class-crossing sizes and bonuses (AML).
well, well, here's an argument based in reality, and i can at least agree it would require a re-working of EVE PVP mechanics. something that will likely never happen.
however that doesn't change that it should happen, imo.
at least one step on the right direction would be to eliminate the size restrictions on ship bonuses. thus a tracking bonus to energy turrets would hold true for any sized turrent you fit, not just a medium size on a cruiser for instance. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
782
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 00:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
2manno Asp wrote: no more soloing ships with ships that have no rational explanation why they are soloed by them, other than, we dumped the small guns for the big ones
A.) Big guns don't track small ships.... this is true in real life too.
B.) Rather than "small gun batteries", big ships are given drones. You can use drones to fend off small ships.... and small ships can destroy the drones. Just like in RL, gun batteries can be destroyed / disabled without needing to destroy the entire ship. This seems fair to me....
C.) People like it when David beats Goliath. They want that big guy to have a weakness a small guy can exploit. Merlin defeats Madam Mim not by becoming some big bad monster, but by turning into tiny bacteria... Luke Skywalker doesn't destroy the first deathstar with some huge fleet, but by using a small fighter craft.. This theme is found throughout science fiction, and frankly it opens up good gameplay options. Not to mention, there are many, many RL examples of how smaller, maneuverable force circumnavigate their "larger" opponents and demolish them. Building that into EvE's game design is ingenious, not sophomoric!
D.) Do you know why RL battleships went from being the cornerstone of Navy Power to obsolete in terms of modern day Navies? It's because fast, maneuverable aircraft obliterate them....
E.) We are talking about space ships.... RL isn't truly applicable....
2manno Asp wrote:Malcanis wrote: Whatever realism we get from game balancing is merely a happy bonus. Game balance should never be compromised in the name of "realism".
another sophmoric response.
The only thing sophomoric here is your attitude. You imply, that just because you're in a bigger ship, you should be able to defeat all "lower level" ships. This is very indicative of a WoW mentality: Oh, my level 50 Paladin should be virtually invulnerable to that level 20 character... And you have the audacity to call Malcanis simple minded? lol....
Here's something pretentious: EvE is better than that.... It is designed better than that... A frigate is just as much a danger to your BS as another BS, but in a different manner. This creates a dynamic and complex Rochambeau atmosphere, which is healthy and pretty awesome... This is also why skillpoints (another attribute often paralleled to character levels) aren't all that important. Once you cross the threshold of competency, it is NOT skillpoints that determine the outcome of a fight. How you fit and fly your ship matters far more.
2manno Asp wrote: Thus a cruiser for instance, should not only have it's medium guns, but retain an array of small guns as well.
... in other words i don't want my frigates "balanced" with cruisers.
So, it comes across as: You want your cruiser to be straight up superior to frigates in combat. If you get high tracking guns AND lower tracking high damage guns, you get both worlds, leaving you with few weaknesses.
Guess what.... that's a poorer game design for several reasons: 1.) A new player, that doesn't have a lot of isk or skillpoints can't get into a "bigger" ship so easily. And since your cruiser is straight up superior to that frigate, you essentially remove the ability of a new player to compete with an older player... And since SP aren't a "purchasable" item, this really disenfranchises your new players. I'm sorry, where you going to suggest SP for plex, too?
2.) It reduces tactical options. Currently, bigger is NOT better, but is only different. You gain some strengths (more firepower, more range, more tank), but you also gain some weaknesses (less ability to apply that firepower, less speed / maneuverability). This creates interesting tactical scenarios, where the weaknesses of bigger ships can be exploited by smaller ships. You essentially would remove these scenarios, because why? You want bigger to be better?
In short.... HELL NO |

2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 03:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
you've got my premise all wrong. i've never played wow, and i don't fly large ships. so this isn't about my desire to have a large ship that kills all the smaller ones, nor is it about some pre-conceived notion of a high rank simply trumping a lower rank. i understand what you're trying to say, but try to see my point.
i don't mind david beating goliath every now and again. that's what makes it special, when it's rare. right? now if david beating goliath were commonplace, then what are we really talking about?
i get that in RL the biggest guns won't track smallest ships, but as you've already pointed out, this isn't RL and since we're all immortal dudes flying in spaceships that can move faster than light. gee... wouldn't you think someone would've figure out how to cram a small gun alongside some bigger ones, so as to shoot those pesky small ones. i mean, it's literally not rocket science in a game filled with the unreal.
i would love to see more maneuverable forces of smaller ships beat less manueverable larger ships, just like our david and goliath example, but it sure would be nice if it wasn't just a case of my guns can hit you and yours can't hit me that wins the day. and only in super special circumstances, like the end of an epic movie, once a year, would i be interested in seeing a small ship solo a battlestation.
i get that fitting and skill matter most, but i'll still refer you to my prior post. simply trading one set of guns for another is stupid. it will always be stupid. no amount of lore will change that. no matter how often you post the awesomeness of it, i'll disagree. if you say it unbalances the game, i'll say it can be re-balanced. there's no point in arguing this.
now, carriers may have rendered bs's obsolete, but not because of one plane, because they carry hordes of planes. if a carrier carried one plane, or even 2, bs's would happily roam the seas and blow carriers out of the water. in other words, the difference lies in the overwhelming numbers and versatility of planes, rather than the impotence of a large vessel against one smaller one. a bs can't harm the hair on a single, lonely, orbiting, frigate. not with all my will it won't.
now, if frigs had to turn into bacteria to infect battlecruisers, or battleships had a tiny portal you literally needed the force to hit, or if the helping hand of god reached down so young pilot david could solo a cruiser, then you'd have a point.
but it's not even close to that. not in new eden. |
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