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Blastil
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
25
   |
Posted - 2012.12.06 15:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
I think i'm in agreement with a lot of people here that pirate and navy ships should be addressed soon, possibly in the same patch as bc and bs. The problem now being that some of the 'better' variants now have relatively worse slot layouts than their t1 bretheren (like the Deimos and vigilant only have a single slot advantage on the thorax whereas they used to have 2) or in the worst possible case, the navy vexor being on par with a regular vexor. Now that's just sad.
Now maybe we can have a navy exequerior turned into a faction logistics ship ? huh ? huh  ? |
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 16:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
So they buffed destoryers which resulted in mass ganking of miners ..
The they introduced T3 BCs (watch that alpha)..
So thay had to buff barges in response (not that I'm complaining here)
Now they've buffed all the T1 Frigates and Cruisers..
Next is BCs and BSs..
What about those poor little ships that are need to move all this stuff about.. can't they have a little love too (and which jaskass decided that the covert ops fittable blockade runner need an non-scannable hold .. surely it would have been more logical to put it on the ship that warps nearly as slow as a freighter) |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
302
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
T1 industrials, please. Always neglected and completely unbalanced.
And, how about adding a combat industrial? Perhaps, a true Battle Badger? |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
302
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
While you are balancing the ships, can you take a look at the warp speed and do something more interesting with it?
Maybe mix it up a bit more between different ships, and expand the range between the slowest and the fastest?
Or, perhaps, since Minmatar typically have the fastest ship speeds, give the Amarr much faster warp speeds. The Amarr are supposed to have better tech, anyways. So, figure that they should be able to cross 10 systems in the same time it takes the Minmatar to cross 5 systems. The Gallente and Caldari can fall somewhere inbetween. |
Bhock
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 14:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:T2 ships shouldn't be a mandatory upgrade from T1 IMO.
T2 ships should never be a downgrade from T1, with a shiny price-tag, when they have exactly the same specialty and similar bonuses... and share the same hull.
You should never lower the capacities of anything by spending time and money to Invent the T2 version from the T1 version... or you're the dumbest inventor and entrepreneur ever.
But overall, the work on T2 is not going to be as drastic as it was for T1, as they have already roles and philosophy.
I really like the treatment of T1, but I just regret to ride mostly T1 now, as T2 is no more worth it in some specialized roles I fly. |
SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 15:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
As an exemple, a Cerberus should be like a super-Caracal. A bit more range, a bit more DPS (like an additional launcher or something), T2 resistances, no fitting issues (Like the current Caracal) and the Caracal's speed.
That would be a good post-Retribution Cerberus.
Let's talk about the Deimos. The Deimos should get the Thorax's 4th medslot, the Thorax's speed, more PWG so it can actually fit a 1600mm plate, neutrons and an AB.
How about the Ishtar ? Currently, the Ishtar can't fit its highslots with anything. Isn't that a little bit disappointing ?
Let's talk about the Eagle. Why is it bad. Mainly because of medium railguns being bad, can't really fix that. Make it like a super-Moa.
Exemples of good HACs : Zealots, Vagabonds, Muninns.
Tbh, the most needed thing is a T2 speed boost. T1 cruisers had very low speeds. Now that it has been fixed, do the same for the T2 cruisers. I could live with a 2km/s Cerberus. |
EI Digin
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
343
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 21:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
For the next BC/BS balancing patch, I would like to see CCP's thoughts on what to do about long range battleship guns. Rails, Beam lasers, and Cruise Missiles in particular (to a lesser extent, artillery) can snipe at extreme length (200-250km) but the current minimum warp mechanics prevent this from happening if you have a prober or a jump spot. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
Damu'Khonde
186
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 21:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
Above and beyond any specific ship balancing, CCP really needs to iron out the role of ship classes, because even after Retribution (perhaps even more so), it seems there are an awful lot of ship classes/types that are stepping on each other's toes (e.g. Attack cruisers and Assault Frigates or Sniper HACs and Tier 3 battlecruisers). The ship lines are a design paradigm, but they only address battlefield role within class, not between.
And of course, watch out for power creep and one round balancing effectively undoing the previous round. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
5419
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 22:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Above and beyond any specific ship balancing, CCP really needs to iron out the role of ship classes, because even after Retribution (perhaps even more so), it seems there are an awful lot of ship classes/types that are stepping on each other's toes (e.g. Attack cruisers and Assault Frigates or Sniper HACs and Tier 3 battlecruisers). The ship lines are a design paradigm, but they only address battlefield role within class, not between.
Uh, that's exactly what's CCP Fozzie is doing.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
Damu'Khonde
186
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 00:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Uh, that's exactly what's CCP Fozzie is doing.
There's been some vague talk of the expected relationship between T1 and T2 variants of a given hull (i.e. more general vs more specialized), but I've seen very little discussion of the interrelationship between ship classes, beyond Tier 3s being too fast for battlecruisers. All of the balancing thus far has been presented in terms of balance within a class and tiericide. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 01:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:While you are balancing the ships, can you take a look at the warp speed and do something more interesting with it?
Maybe mix it up a bit more between different ships, and expand the range between the slowest and the fastest?
Or, perhaps, since Minmatar typically have the fastest ship speeds, give the Amarr much faster warp speeds. The Amarr are supposed to have better tech, anyways. So, figure that they should be able to cross 10 systems in the same time it takes the Minmatar to cross 5 systems. The Gallente and Caldari can fall somewhere inbetween.
Warp speed itself is almost entirely irrelevant.
What would make a big difference is warp acceleration and deceleration rates.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 01:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:As an exemple, a Cerberus should be like a super-Caracal. A bit more range, a bit more DPS (like an additional launcher or something), T2 resistances, no fitting issues (Like the current Caracal) and the Caracal's speed.
That would be a good post-Retribution Cerberus.
Half of the point of the frigate and cruiser rebalance was to narrow the gap between T1 and T2 hulls so that T1s are actually worth flying. There's little point doing that if next they're just going to buff the hell out of HACs to restore the old gap.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Psihius
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 12:38:00 -
[43] - Quote
As it was said - when to expect changes to Faction and Pirate frigates and cruisers? :)
Some road map on battlecruisers, battleships and T2 ships would be good.
Also some initial info about the cap ship re-balancing would be appreciated (not the super capitals, but maybe those too) |
Noisrevbus
308
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:02:00 -
[44] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:While you are balancing the ships, can you take a look at the warp speed and do something more interesting with it?
Maybe mix it up a bit more between different ships, and expand the range between the slowest and the fastest?
Or, perhaps, since Minmatar typically have the fastest ship speeds, give the Amarr much faster warp speeds. The Amarr are supposed to have better tech, anyways. So, figure that they should be able to cross 10 systems in the same time it takes the Minmatar to cross 5 systems. The Gallente and Caldari can fall somewhere inbetween. Warp speed itself is almost entirely irrelevant. What would make a big difference is warp acceleration and deceleration rates.
This is getting a bit too detailed now and perhaps sliding a bit offtopic with that, but...
I've always enjoyed the warp-speed dynamics and that it's not tied to acceleration and deceleration (regardless wether that feature is performance-based or not).
It made stretching and splitting pursuers (or chasing runaways) more difficult in smaller systems, which made the choices you took with regard to routes more important and gave a variety over systems (eg., "this is a dangerous system, here we can be overrun" or "this is an ideal system for closing the gap" etc.).
If the mechanics rested upon the acceleration rates as some sort of "double alignment" factor you would lose those dynamics and get a much more predictable timing on various ships and gangs. Too streamlined for my taste. |
SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 09:22:00 -
[45] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:SMT008 wrote:As an exemple, a Cerberus should be like a super-Caracal. A bit more range, a bit more DPS (like an additional launcher or something), T2 resistances, no fitting issues (Like the current Caracal) and the Caracal's speed.
That would be a good post-Retribution Cerberus. Half of the point of the frigate and cruiser rebalance was to narrow the gap between T1 and T2 hulls so that T1s are actually worth flying. There's little point doing that if next they're just going to buff the hell out of HACs to restore the old gap.
I'm not trying to "buff the hell out of HACs", I'm just trying to bring the Cerberus to the Caracals' level (Especially on speed and fitting room). This alone will make it okay to fly.
|
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1128
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:SMT008 wrote:As an exemple, a Cerberus should be like a super-Caracal. A bit more range, a bit more DPS (like an additional launcher or something), T2 resistances, no fitting issues (Like the current Caracal) and the Caracal's speed.
That would be a good post-Retribution Cerberus. Half of the point of the frigate and cruiser rebalance was to narrow the gap between T1 and T2 hulls so that T1s are actually worth flying. There's little point doing that if next they're just going to buff the hell out of HACs to restore the old gap. I'm not trying to "buff the hell out of HACs", I'm just trying to bring the Cerberus to the Caracals' level (Especially on speed and fitting room). This alone will make it okay to fly.
The Cerberus obviously needs some tweaking just to bring it in line with the other HACs. But not turning it into what you called a 'super-Caracal', that would invalidate the point of the Caracal being improved in the first place. Following the design philosophy that T2 is more specialised than T1, not outright superior across the board, the new Cerberus will outperform the Caracal in one specific aspect and be broadly equal or maybe even slightly inferior in the others, as will the rest of the T2 range relative to its T1 hull type.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
5461
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 11:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
The Cerb is a particularly sad case; the only ship that's worse off is the poor Eagle.
For my money, I'd repurpose the Eagle away from it's sniping (actually "paintscratching at 200km") role, where it will always be totally outclassed by the Naga and make it into a Caldari version of the Vagabond.
The Cerb... was already marginal at best in it's "ultra-long long range delayed damage" role, a role that has been virtually eliminated by very fast on-grid probing. It was a great frigate/anti-support killer, but now the Caracal does that job super well. All the Cerb can really do is have better tank & resists so that it can be a more survivable but more expensive ship that does the same job in bigger fleets with a better chance of surviving.
One possibility might be to increase its sensor strength by a lot (and I mean a really lot, to ~100 or so), and its targeting range by ~50% or so, to give it a specialist anti-EW ship role. Maybe give it a FoF missile role bonus as well? As a side effect of the sensor strength boost, it would also be harder to probe out, meaning it could actually leverage its range advantage in the face of probing.
Also for the love of christ, increase its fittings and base cap a bit.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
Tribal Conclave
229
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 14:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
The last update ruined missile legion.... it need to be reviewed...
Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built)
Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1139
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 21:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:The last update ruined missile legion.... it need to be reviewed...
Ruining missile Legions just brings them back into line with the pre-ruined laser Legion option!
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
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