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TomB	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:37:00 - [1] Please read this at least twice before you reply: This thread is about the soon to happen missile overhaul, this is not intended as a nerf for missiles but to get a better balance vs. ship classes & vs. the turret system while still using a different flavor. This is how ever the first prototype to test with, various issues have still not been dealt with and the tuning has only begun. This thread will be moderated by very cruel people, so watch out when you do your reply; stay away from posting irrelevant comments to the topic of this post, keep your posts with good feedback from testing experiences and try to help out with greatly appreciated alternative ideas on specific parts in your comments. Example of replies that will help nailing down various parts that do not work well enough: "the new flight time duration bonus for the Caracal doesn't keep it inline with other cruisers on same level, would see something like better precision on guided missiles help more" - "the increased distance that the rockets can cross with skills is imo to powerful atm because of abubu, i suggest you reduce it down to max 10.125km with skill" - "rocket launcher & standard launcher are better for cruisers than assaults because of the way less fitting requirements and close to its DPS" Examples of replies that will most likely be deleted are: "wts raven" - "wts local expander" - "I can't solo this particular lvl 4 mission anymore in my Raven" - "all battleships suck now and no one wants to fly them, all hail industrials, the new king & queen of combat" & etc. So what's this all about.. The overhaul of the missile system is mainly focused on: Reducing damage for bigger missiles against smaller ships - the missiles now uses the Signature Radius of the target which gets factored by a new missile attribute called Explosion Radius, where the explosion can only deal maximum damage to a ship that meets the Explosion Radius in size Damage can be increased on ships that have Signature Radius smaller than the Explosion Radius by either using Target Painter on the target or if the target activates a MWD, the intend how ever is not to make MWD none useable around missile boats as the velocity will be used as a damage factor as well Keeping ship velocity a factor for missile combat, allowing it to reduce the damage - each missile class will have a unique threshold where ship velocity can decrease the damage dealing and a unique factor of how fast the damage decreases per m/s once that threshold is met Everyone who loves shooting or fears getting hit by missiles should give this a test for the feel of how the velocity factor works for the different missile types, it is still at the first level, it will getter a better look at Increased missile velocity - this is to make them more friendly & feared at long distanced combat engagements, missiles "do not" have the same benefit of instant damage on module activation that turrets are capable of, while they "do" have the benefit of consistent damage Known issue here is missiles visually disappearing in space; this has been investigated and fixed (possible the fix ain't out on the Test Server yet) and missile explosion occurring at freaked locations is still being investigated Increasing the missile skill group advancement - players that want to become ultra violent with missiles will be able to get skills to improve their missiles in various ways Other balance changes with launchers and missiles are also being worked on, these will be listed for the missiles or the launchers in details in this thread. 2004.07.06 19:30:45combatTomB strikes you critically with his Nerf Bat, pwning you for -100% everything.
TomB	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:38:00 - [2] Missiles Torpedoes: Their base damage on average sized battleships does not change, Torpedoes are still able to deal the most damage to battleships and are the hardest missiles to counter, they are how ever not as fast as guided missiles, do not have the same possible range and damage is easier to reduce with ship velocity. Extreme damage capabilities against big ships like before, but very little damage to smaller ships and easily reduced with velocity Velocity has been increased from 750m/s to 1250m/s base, capable of 1875m/s with skills and 2813m/s with a single ship bonus Base distance has been reduced, but able to cross 84km with skills and to 127km with a single velocity or flight time ship bonus Cruise Missiles: Like all other guided missiles they have maximum velocity, are able to cross long distances in xl-greatly shortened time, significantly increased range and very high velocity is needed to affect their damage - the reason for all guided missiles to have the same velocity is because the velocity of the missiles are not considered a factor for being able of catching a ship or not, they all have to cross long distances and need the highest possible velocity They still work the same in damage against battleships but have been improved in DPS with cruise launcher changes (listed below), but only deal average damage to cruisers & frigates Velocity has been increased from 1600m/s to 3750m/s base, capable of 5625m/s with skills and 8438m/s with a single ship bonus Distance that these can cross has been increased by a big number, capable of 169km with skills and 253km with a single velocity or flight time ship bonus Heavy Missiles: Like all other guided missiles they have maximum velocity, are able to cross long distances in xl-greatly shortened time, significantly increased range and very high velocity is needed to affect their damage - the reason for all guided missiles to have the same velocity is because the velocity of the missiles are not considered a factor for being able of catching a ship or not, they all have to cross long distances and need the highest possible velocity The DPS for Heavy Missiles against cruisers has been increased with Launcher improvements (listed below), but only deal average damage to frigates Velocity has been increased from 1600m/s to 3750m/s base, capable of 5625m/s with skills and 8438m/s with a single ship bonus Distance that these can cross has been increased by a big number, capable of 84km with skills and 127km with a single velocity or flight time ship bonus Light Missiles: Like all other guided missiles they have maximum velocity, are able to cross long distances in xl-greatly shortened time, significantly increased range and very high velocity is needed to affect their damage - the reason for all guided missiles to have the same velocity is because the velocity of the missiles are not considered a factor for being able of catching a ship or not, they all have to cross long distances and need the highest possible velocity The DPS for Light Missiles against frigates stays same for average sized frigates, but gets a little less against the smallest frigates Velocity has been increased from 1600m/s to 3750m/s base, capable of 5625m/s with skills and 8438m/s with a single ship bonus Distance that these can cross has been increased by a big number, capable of 42km with skills and 63km with a single velocity or flight time ship bonus Rockets: These have not had much changed, they will stay the ultimate missile damage dealer for frigates in close range engagements but still limited on distance, their velocity how ever won't be increased much because of defender purposes in close range engagements The DPS for rockets is the same for mostly all ships Velocity has been increased from 1000m/s to 2250m/s base, capable of 3375m/s with skills and 5063m/s with a single ship bonus Distance that these can cross has been decreased by base, but capable of venturing into 10km with skills and 15km with a single velocity or flight time ship bonus 2004.07.06 19:30:45combatTomB strikes you critically with his Nerf Bat, pwning you for -100% everything.
TomB	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:39:00 - [3] Launchers The missile and launcher changes will make size classed weapons deal more damage per second to same ship class than bigger weapons, there are how ever two exceptions: 1. Cruise Launcher can deal similar amount as Heavy Launcher to a large cruiser with new guided precision skill 2. Assault Launcher deals more damage than rocket or standard launcher to large frigates with new guided precision skill Siege Launcher: are only able to shoot Torpedoes, they are still the ultimate damage dealer for launchers. * No more cruise missiles or FoF's The Cruise Launcher: now shoots faster than before, it doesn't have the same damage capabilities as the Siege Launcher, but is a much better option than before and also gives fitting space for other grid/cpu greedy modules. * Base RoF reduced from 28 seconds to 22 seconds * Base Power Need increased from 1000 to 1250 The Heavy Launcher: also shoots faster than before, increasing the DPS against cruisers / battleships from currently on Tranquility. * Base RoF reduced from 20 seconds to 18 seconds * Base Power Need increased from 60 to 100 The Assault Launcher: has only had little reduced CPU need for fitting, it keeps it average DPS for a cruiser sized weapon, stays the king of defenders, also the only launcher that gives an edge against smaller ship classes in DPS. * Base CPU Need reduced from 40 to 35 * Base Power Need increased from 30 to 50 The Standard Launcher: has had increased fitting requirements in power need, also due to changes to the light missiles it's now able to operate at further distances and significantly decreased down time to the start when damage starts taking place. * Base CPU Need increased from 12 to 25 * Base Power Need increased from 3 to 8 The Rocket Launcher: also has had increased fitting requirements in power need, they will stay the ultimate frigate class launcher for DPS in shorter range engagements * Base CPU Need increased from 12 to 15 * Base Power Need increased from 1 to 4 Defender Missiles Defender Missiles: have had their velocity increased to 7500m/s so they are able of catching faster missiles, the Defender Skill continues increasing their velocity which enables them to get to 11250m/s, capable of crossing a distance of 113km. Other changes to the multi-launcher-class Defender Missiles have not been done, i.e. you will need more than one defender to take out a Torpedo. Skills Missile Launcher Operation - decreased rate of fire bonus from 5% to 2% (addon of Rapid Launch) These are new skills that have been listed as possible advancement candidates for the missile changes: Missile Navigation - Increased missile velocity Missile Bombardment - Increased missile fly time duration Guided Missile Precision - Signature radius reduction factor on damage reduced for guided missiles Warhead Upgrades - Increased missile damage Target Navigation Prediction - The threshold where velocity of target starts decreasing damage is increased Rapid Launch - Increased rate of fire for launchers T2 Specialization - For T2 junk only 2004.07.06 19:30:45combatTomB strikes you critically with his Nerf Bat, pwning you for -100% everything.
TomB	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:39:00 - [4] Reserved for future updates The new skills are currently available on the market on the Test Server. Torpedo velocity reduced & flight time increased. FoF missiles updated. Heavy & Light Missile flight time reduced. Velocity threshold factor on damage increased. Heavy, Assault & Standard Launcher power need increased. Standard & Rocket Launcher cpu need increased. Stealth Bomber power need bonus for cruise launchers updated. Stealth Bomber bonus for explosion radius on cruise missiles added. 23th of May Decreased missile launcher operation bonus & added rapid launch skill Decreased ranks on few of the new skills NPC's using microwarpdrive now get increased signature radius Currently in work Giving NPC's "skills levels" of the new skills Modifying POS missile batteries for new system More tuning 2004.07.06 19:30:45combatTomB strikes you critically with his Nerf Bat, pwning you for -100% everything.
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:40:00 - [5] Just a quick question Tomb, how is this going to affect the server load on TQ? I would hate for the changes to come in only to find out everyone is lagged to hell because of the number of calculation to be done for missle hits. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Cadman Weyland	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:42:00 - [6] Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 04/05/2005 16:42:14 From what i read there Cruise misisles will still be more effective vs frigs than say Light Missiles? I had kinda hoped Cruise would be made more of an anti BS/Cruiser weapon and that you would need to rely on faster Light Missiles for engaging small fast moving targets. Correct me if ive read that wrong. Director of Empire Ops and Chief Carebear
Tobias Raddick	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:47:00 - [7] Also, aren't you afraid of the effect this will have on interceptors and fast-frigates during small-to-medium combats? As it stands, an interceptor can handily engage a cruiser with if not a reasonable chance of success, then a sureity of escaping. Missiles crossing space at 5 to 8 km/s will see the end of the speed/low sig of interceptors that has until now ensureed their surviveability.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:48:00 - [8] Edited by: Jim Steele on 04/05/2005 16:52:16 Originally by: Cadman Weyland From what i read there Cruise misisles will still be more effective vs frigs than say Light Missiles? Er you didnt read the part about big missiles not doing much damage unless they matched the explosion radius in size and also that velocity will reduce damage of fast hitting missiles Death to the Galante
TomB	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:51:00 - [9] Originally by: Cadman Weyland Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 04/05/2005 16:42:14 From what i read there Cruise misisles will still be more effective vs frigs than say Light Missiles? I had kinda hoped Cruise would be made more of an anti BS/Cruiser weapon and that you would need to rely on faster Light Missiles for engaging small fast moving targets. Correct me if ive read that wrong. Updated the Launcher section with clarification on the topic, thanks for the reply. 2004.07.06 19:30:45combatTomB strikes you critically with his Nerf Bat, pwning you for -100% everything.
Sin Angel	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:57:00 - [10] in general i am a missile user crow raven etc and i think these changes are fair enough and longer overdue they will help in fleets and stop some effectivness against frigs with bs sized missiles but 1 thing i find too overnerfed is the standard missile launcher's new fitting req's doubling while a crow can slap on 3 malk standard launchers and be ok our mainstay normal frig the kestrel is slaughtered by this needing >>12<< more pg to fit 4 launchers -sin angel
thelung187	Posted - 2005.05.04 16:59:00 - [11] All in all the patch looks good, aside from the fact that siege launchers become an npc-only module. Raven with sieges in fleet combat without the ability to fly FOF's = sitting duck when scorps put their uber 1-mod jammer onto them. Also, can you give an example of expected damage as far as cruise vs. light missile on a tackling interceptor without mwd sig radius in effect, I would hope they are not equal. [ 2005.05.19 22:54:23 ] InnerDrive > only solution safespot till you leave or mine in empire till you leave or something
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:01:00 - [12] Could you maybe give us some numbers on damage agaist frigates? IE, Cruise missile with all level5 skill hits an Interceptor with level5 skills. What sort of damage would one expect? And then likewise, but for a Standard Launcher. (What im wondering is, will it become an option, or even a requirement for battleships to start fitting smaller launchers on their ships?) Next. Light Missiles getting a range of 84km. That looks fine to me, but i do not see how it is usefull, with the highest targetting range a frigate has wont cross 50km? What i forsee happening is, f.e Crows approaching their target from say 50km, exactly matching their own missile speed, and having potentially 5-6 volleys hit at once. Used to be possibly ofcourse, but the range was limited and speed would be no more then 1.000 m/s. Now, missiles could go equally fast as an Interceptor + MWD, and potentially faster. Would lead to some interesting tactical decisions though. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:01:00 - [13] Looks like a good change overall. I have slight concerns about exactly how the sig radius and speed will interact with missile damage, specifically for MWDing interceptors. A MWDing interceptor should take very little damage from Cruise missiles IMO. Of course, it's impossible to really comment until I've seen the numbers for myself on Sisi. On another note, will this missile overhaul bring any changes to Stealth Bombers? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:02:00 - [14] Looks decent, I like how ravens now need to mount either siege or cruise. However some uber testing needs to be done on the sig damage thing, if torps are going 3km/sec and still doing lots of vs a frig, and cruise are going 8km/sec and doing oodles, then this will wreck the game. Also, this looks like it amazingly unbalances crows w/ light missiles, and caracels with heavys vs the rest of their class. Crows will no longer need webs to hit other intys, as their missiles go so fast that they cant be outrun. Likewise with caras, and also caras will do more dps vs other cruisers. I'm waiting to see on just how much damage each missile will do to each class, but its a step in the right direction.
slip66	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Tobias Rad**** Also, aren't you afraid of the effect this will have on interceptors and fast-frigates during small-to-medium combats? As it stands, an interceptor can handily engage a cruiser with if not a reasonable chance of success, then a sureity of escaping. Missiles crossing space at 5 to 8 km/s will see the end of the speed/low sig of interceptors that has until now ensureed their surviveability. the sheer fact that a frig solo against a cursier have a chance high of probalility for success now is kinda skewed. Other then fear of a web now. Why shouldnt a frig think twice about engaging a cruiser solo?
slip66	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:04:00 - [16] Edited by: slip66 on 04/05/2005 17:08:17 Originally by: thelung187 All in all the patch looks good, aside from the fact that siege launchers become an npc-only module. Raven with sieges in fleet combat without the ability to fly FOF's = sitting duck when scorps put their uber 1-mod jammer onto them. Also, can you give an example of expected damage as far as cruise vs. light missile on a tackling interceptor without mwd sig radius in effect, I would hope they are not equal. improvement of ECCM would help this or fof torps but really whats the difference between a missile boat and gunship in this regard? cerberus is looking MUCH more dangerous now. I like these changes for balance along with the new skills/t2.
TomB	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Darken Two Just a quick question Tomb, how is this going to affect the server load on TQ? I would hate for the changes to come in only to find out everyone is lagged to hell because of the number of calculation to be done for missle hits. TQ should not be affected much by changed values as the calculation code has been on TQ for quite some time now, the values how ever were made so that missile combat wouldn't get affected but code still operating the calculations. 2004.07.06 19:30:45combatTomB strikes you critically with his Nerf Bat, pwning you for -100% everything.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Sin Angel in general i am a missile user crow raven etc and i think these changes are fair enough and longer overdue they will help in fleets and stop some effectivness against frigs with bs sized missiles but 1 thing i find too overnerfed is the standard missile launcher's new fitting req's doubling while a crow can slap on 3 malk standard launchers and be ok our mainstay normal frig the kestrel is slaughtered by this needing >>12<< more pg to fit 4 launchers -sin angel I assume standard missiles and rockets will now hit other frigates without the need for a web. Given that they do similar DoT to turrets, increasing their fitting to turret levels seems perfectly fair. Missile frig users have had an easy ride on fitting for a long time. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Stormfront	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:05:00 - [19] Edited by: Stormfront on 04/05/2005 17:06:00 The Raven still owns at close range combat. Dmg wise it is one of the toughest ships to beat up close. With the higher dmg to missile skills coming in, this will become even more pronounced. How about making smartbombs remotely smart, so that they are more usable in generic conditions. ie. War in empire. I was aiming towards tech II rails and then tech II blasters on my mega, but seeing as I have similar skills on Caldari ships. Might as well just get my missiles trained up.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:09:00 - [20] meet the gank crow: 3 arb std mwd, 2 sensor booster IIs 3 bcus orbit at 50km with any tackler tackling ur target, you cannot be hit.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Hakera bs will be sitting ducks to frigate packs without fof defences. Especially the way EW can work with just one jammer. Dunno what a raven is supposed to do now without drastically killing its dps by swapping out for smaller launchers it wont compete against the target painting turret ships. Not sure, what npc setups will do either, probably be 4 seige, 2 cruise. ravens can use target painters.
Sin Angel	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Sin Angel in general i am a missile user crow raven etc and i think these changes are fair enough and longer overdue they will help in fleets and stop some effectivness against frigs with bs sized missiles but 1 thing i find too overnerfed is the standard missile launcher's new fitting req's doubling while a crow can slap on 3 malk standard launchers and be ok our mainstay normal frig the kestrel is slaughtered by this needing >>12<< more pg to fit 4 launchers -sin angel I assume standard missiles and rockets will now hit other frigates without the need for a web. Given that they do similar DoT to turrets, increasing their fitting to turret levels seems perfectly fair. Missile frig users have had an easy ride on fitting for a long time. yes fair enough to increase the req but doubling it is quite another matter a kestrel will no longer be able to fit a mwd and 4 launchers let alone anything else
aeti	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:12:00 - [23] have you changed the targeting on FOFs and on defenders at all? and can you get defenders to shoot down all hostile missiles rather than just ones that are going for you?
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Sin Angel Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Sin Angel in general i am a missile user crow raven etc and i think these changes are fair enough and longer overdue they will help in fleets and stop some effectivness against frigs with bs sized missiles but 1 thing i find too overnerfed is the standard missile launcher's new fitting req's doubling while a crow can slap on 3 malk standard launchers and be ok our mainstay normal frig the kestrel is slaughtered by this needing >>12<< more pg to fit 4 launchers -sin angel I assume standard missiles and rockets will now hit other frigates without the need for a web. Given that they do similar DoT to turrets, increasing their fitting to turret levels seems perfectly fair. Missile frig users have had an easy ride on fitting for a long time. yes fair enough to increase the req but doubling it is quite another matter a kestrel will no longer be able to fit a mwd and 4 launchers let alone anything else so a frig cant fit 4 of its biggest and best weapons without fitting mods now?!?!? You cant fit 3 280s + mwd on a wolf or 3 light neuts + mwd on an incursus. Caldari, can use auxs too.
SirSpectre	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:17:00 - [25] With The increase of Power usage on Cruise Missle launchers. How will the affect the Stealth Bombers and the bonus to cruise launchers?
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:18:00 - [26] please no 84km range on light missles crows orbiting at 50km with a sensor booster would kill all other frigates, ceptors, cruisers, assault frigs and so on no, honestly, no frigate sized weapon should get more range then 20km maximal, and even there the missle damage should be pretty low Wanna fly with me?
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:20:00 - [27] Originally by: DrunkenOne meet the gank crow: 3 arb std mwd, 2 sensor booster IIs 3 bcus orbit at 50km with any tackler tackling ur target, you cannot be hit. This will admittedly own interceptors and frigs if they don't warp out immediately. It shouldnt cause much trouble for larger ships(or even a Harpy) with a target painter though. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:20:00 - [28] Originally by: DrunkenOne meet the gank crow: 3 arb std mwd, 2 sensor booster IIs 3 bcus orbit at 50km with any tackler tackling ur target, you cannot be hit. yep, thats one of the main problems I have seen here too Wanna fly with me?
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:21:00 - [29] So.. what % of total will torps and cruse do to frigs? this is going to make lvl 4 missions a lot harder I can just tell it... rouge drones are all extremely small so now will my torp hit them for 25 dammage (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.04 17:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: DrunkenOne meet the gank crow: 3 arb std mwd, 2 sensor booster IIs 3 bcus orbit at 50km with any tackler tackling ur target, you cannot be hit. This will admittedly own interceptors and frigs if they don't warp out immediately. It shouldnt cause much trouble for larger ships(or even a Harpy) with a target painter though. no, most cruisers cant do enough damage at 50km, and dont forget, the crow can easily st ay out of your range at 84km or so Wanna fly with me?

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