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Skarn Lonewolf
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Posted - 2005.05.05 18:27:00 -
[211]
question of logic ?
with this patch, we'll get ( or around ) the same logic of scaling than targeting time..
as we all know most the ship is little, more time you need to target it.. sound logic, no problem.
now ( or in futur when this patch will become live )missiles will have scaled dmg, if you use a torpedo ( designed for large ships and large object ) on a fregate type you'll do less dmg than on a BS at the inverse if you use a light missile you'll do full dmg on every type of ships as their " blast" radius will be smaller or equal to the ship radius..
to resume bigger is your missile less dmgs can be deal.. ( i don't speack about a specific value of dmg i speack about a scale of dmg to be clear ).
for those who need a more sharp picture:
if you use a tactical nuclear missile you'll be abble to erase a town from the landscape ( building, bridge, etc...) but you won't obliterate the car or the truck because they are smaller than the missile previous dmg scale(and move faster than a building  ). and at the inverse if you use a portable missile as a stinger, you'll be able to destroy a carrier. even if it's not the the previous goal of this missile (that will be a question of time and quantity ).
you got it ? 
if it's sound logical to reduce dmg because you can avoid a part of the blast ( speed factor.), it's not logic to be less damaged by a torpedo than a light missile ( we are still in scale view )
the correct logic is :
if you hit a ship with a size radius > to your missile blast radius you do less dmg ( why ?, simply because your missile is too light to damage the ship structure/armor with efficience ).
if you hit a ship a size radius <= to your missile blast radius you do full dmg ( why ? because you have fire a missile abble to damage the armor with efficience ).
and after you still can apply the speed/resists factor to reduce the real dmgs.
well i hope you got the picture and sorry for the typing mistakes , english isn't my natural language.
PS: i know its not the purpose of this link, but you should look the dmg logic on turrets too.. taking the size of the weapon used over the size of the ship hit would be a great step on combat balance, if its apply to all weapons types and apply with the corect logic ( mine of course  )
No sig, this is making lag this forum, mine is 59 octets !
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Galeo
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Posted - 2005.05.05 18:36:00 -
[212]
 Originally by: thelung187
Raven with sieges in fleet combat without the ability to fly FOF's = sitting duck when scorps put their uber 1-mod jammer onto them.
Exactly how is that different from every other BS facing a Scorp?
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.05.05 18:57:00 -
[213]
I wish CCP would post some of their pretty graphs to show what kind of damage they are hoping to achieve here. I have read every post here. I am totally horrified at the pathetic damage to all ship types ppl are getting on the test server. I hope this is because CCP have Fecked up the values in their calculations on the test server and are not indicitive of what is going to TQ.
I like the speed increase. Perhaps a missle user can get in a kill mail now even if they can only do .3 damage. I think the ranges are a bit overboard. Keep them the same or just a slight increase.
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marioman
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:07:00 -
[214]
Edited by: marioman on 05/05/2005 19:08:06
After all this...i wonder if the devs have thought about drones, Rogue Drones i mean.
Drones are small, and some are fast, some really fast.
Has the drones signiture and speed been considered in this nerf at all TomB?
Just curious. Cuz even now on TQ some of the higher drones take 2-3 volleys of torps.
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Hous Pharteen
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:11:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Hous Pharteen on 05/05/2005 19:12:09
Solving problems with screwy physics isn't the answer.
Everything 100% balanced is not interesting and 4 races with the exact same capabilities but different skins isn't the answer.
As an Amarr player, the only issue I have with Caldari is the Raven being able to solo level 4's so easily. Just nerf that and move on to bigger issues please.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:16:00 -
[216]
Originally by: xenorx
I wish CCP would post some of their pretty graphs to show what kind of damage they are hoping to achieve here. I have read every post here. I am totally horrified at the pathetic damage to all ship types ppl are getting on the test server. I hope this is because CCP have Fecked up the values in their calculations on the test server and are not indicitive of what is going to TQ.
I like the speed increase. Perhaps a missle user can get in a kill mail now even if they can only do .3 damage. I think the ranges are a bit overboard. Keep them the same or just a slight increase.
With regard to the values and damages on the test server:
A) TomB's post said these aren't tweaked/final - it also said to read it twice, which many posters dont' seem to have done... 
B) It is likely that the reduced damage per velocity and per sig radius are exagerated at this point as to easier see how the maths are reacting to subtle changes in speed and signature radius 
C) It's too bad that B is likely the case, as there are so many ppl in this thread (and in others) flying off the handle with the .9 damage cruise and 39 damage torp. Hopefully we can all get a grip and realize that it is on that server for "testing and tweaking". 
Weirda expects that the values we will be seeing will be much less dramatic after the current set of data is analyzed and modifiers are adjusted.
Weirda would also like to beg again that the Typhoon is looked at with a Missile ROF bonus to replace its optimal.
As for 'cruise' in a 'siege' launcher, someone mentioned that ammo users could pick charge sizes? You mean that if Weirda put a Medium charge in large gun it will hit like a medium gun? Cool! Didn't know that... 
--
Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Captin Biltmore
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:21:00 -
[217]
(this post pertains to frig weapons mostly, ie. standard launchers)
HOLY JESUS CHRIST!! The changes for the larger weapons (torp/cruise) are nice. Raven/Scorp now act like turett ships with (almost) instant damage. But they are now better because they have the same damage at 0m as at 100km. But that's ok....not a big deal.
THE FRIG CHANGES BLOW ASS BALLS. Before I made this decision I went on sisi and tried it out. With my meager skills (standard missile III, caldari frig IV) I fit a Kessy with 4 standard launchers and was hitting (ALMOST INSTANTLY) at 35km for 100% damage on everything I shot at. Interceptors....dead before they got within 25km of me.
I challenge you to name me 1 other tech I frig that can fit a FULL RACK of LONG RANGE weapons and hit to 35km with these meager skill requirements.
/me goes to train up a couple kessy flying alts now. Death to all ceptors.
Even in my retribution (which gets a range bonus) I can't hit to 35km. Heck, I can't fit a full rack of Med Beam Lasers on it either (without powergrid help). And even at my MAX range I am using Radio crystals which do crappy damage (about 20-30). My missiles are hitting for 70-80.
Time to throw away my 1mil skill points in gunnery and stick to my ****in 111k skill points in missiles.
(was this a nerf/balance? looks like a massive boost over in the frig department)
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Epofhis
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:30:00 -
[218]
1. Cruise from raven vs a nano fiber phoon w/ 100mn ab resulted in hits of < 10
2. Cruise vs npc inty resulted in hits of < .5
3. Torps vs npc inty resulted in hits of < .3
4. Heavy missles vs frig resulted in hits of < 1
5. Cruise missles used for 1 inty afaik where 150
6. Heavy missles used for one frig where 90+
id be intrested in comment's from a crow user, to see how his missle use was affected, also if there is a cerb pilot as well
This would seem to make cruisers that r missle spammers useless. And it seems as tho a bs vs bs fight rather useless, im wondering what a raven will be useful for?
there are you happy now, my sig fits every rule. Now, no delete me pls, I promise to be good!!!11010101!! |
bungle2k 2
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:31:00 -
[219]
have just been on sisi and i dont think the changes to missiles will work for agent running have just tried it and i had to warp against
four Amarr Navy Mallers
one Amarr Navy Apocalypse
one Amarr Slave Trader
four AN Gamma II Class Support Frigates
i just couldnt take the frigs down fast enough ??
how the hell are you going to do lvl 4 kill missions solo ??
let me think, you cant
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meowcat
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:32:00 -
[220]
it's long overdue - looks good in theory
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Horb
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:52:00 -
[221]
Does missile impact still effect the current speed of a ship? If that is the case then the impact of missile 1 would be very small but each missile after that would have greater impact because of the decrease in the ships velocity. |
xenorx
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:56:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Weirda
Originally by: xenorx
I wish CCP would post some of their pretty graphs to show what kind of damage they are hoping to achieve here. I have read every post here. I am totally horrified at the pathetic damage to all ship types ppl are getting on the test server. I hope this is because CCP have Fecked up the values in their calculations on the test server and are not indicitive of what is going to TQ.
I like the speed increase. Perhaps a missle user can get in a kill mail now even if they can only do .3 damage. I think the ranges are a bit overboard. Keep them the same or just a slight increase.
With regard to the values and damages on the test server:
A) TomB's post said these aren't tweaked/final - it also said to read it twice, which many posters dont' seem to have done...
B) It is likely that the reduced damage per velocity and per sig radius are exagerated at this point as to easier see how the maths are reacting to subtle changes in speed and signature radius
C) It's too bad that B is likely the case, as there are so many ppl in this thread (and in others) flying off the handle with the .9 damage cruise and 39 damage torp. Hopefully we can all get a grip and realize that it is on that server for "testing and tweaking".
Weirda expects that the values we will be seeing will be much less dramatic after the current set of data is analyzed and modifiers are adjusted.
Weirda would also like to beg again that the Typhoon is looked at with a Missile ROF bonus to replace its optimal.
As for 'cruise' in a 'siege' launcher, someone mentioned that ammo users could pick charge sizes? You mean that if Weirda put a Medium charge in large gun it will hit like a medium gun? Cool! Didn't know that...
Well that is the idea of asking for some indication of what kind of damage is expected. How can anyone test this if we dont know what kind of damage CCP is looking for?
Come on Tomb show us what kind of damage you are shooting for so it can be properly tested and commented on. If you are looking for a torp to hit for 50 hit points on an Ibis that is sitting still say so. We can comment on that and test it. If the code is working on the test server and ppl see it hitting an Ibis for 35 hp while sitting still we can tell you and you can "tweek" it. As it is now there is no base line to shoot for and the ONLY info we are getting is from the ppl here panicing
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Liquid Metal
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:57:00 -
[223]
Personally i think the missile speeds are fine at the moment, possibly a skill should be introduced to increase speed by 25% but any more is too much imo, regarding the interceptor/kessie discussion.
I think a better key to solving missile problems lies with better defence, against missiles, targeting for one, along side the ability to break a missile lock using transversal speed etc so that missiles actually miss for a change, as they often do irl, or even end up dud, maybe a skill to bring the chance down? (just a suggestion)
These could even work along side current changes, but make them be effective to a much lesser degree.
My 2 Pence!
"A strong man stands tall against all others, everything else is just a delusion for the weak.."
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Roshan longshot
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Posted - 2005.05.05 19:59:00 -
[224]
Not good. Instead of downgrading the missles, make better defense against them. If a frigate gets hit by a torpedoe it should be nothing but a blazing wreck. If said frigate had a point defense system, they could shoot the missle. These changes just fall into the mass whinage against the level 4 agents. They are two steps backwards from the one step we already took.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter,pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box and from this site.
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:02:00 -
[225]
when will we be able to test tne new missile skills? Maybe the missiles will test differently with them? to give this change the benefit of the doubt.
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Slipknot
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:05:00 -
[226]
Just some quick feedback after testing on the singularity server.
Went down to Tenal to test the new missle changes (torpedoes only) on larger rat spawns.
1) vs. BS: no particular change noticed
2) vs. Cruisers: they were almost as hard to kill as the main BS
3) vs. Frigates: almost impossible to kill ... it took several times the number of torpedoes than those required to kill a BS ... max damage on structure was 39.5, with Torpedo skill at level 5 and a +8.4% damage mod.
I wisely left the three frigs last; but I would have been in serious trouble if I hadn't had two of them almost continuously jammed. Surely, one could argue, that I would have been in the same sort of trouble if I had been in a Tempest with 1400s ... that's why, when flying a Tempest or an Apoc or a Mega, I use those launcher slots to fit two cruise launchers (with FOFs) which help the drones with those pesty frigs.
My point is: damage reduction is fine, but even without any additional skills it should not take more torps to kill a frig than those required for a BS. And, who will fly a BS now, when it can be taken out by a few frigs with little risk to them?
Is that to encurage travelling in pairs? I.e. with another frig or a destroyer? Well, I think the 3 frigs (2 if they are T2), will first take out the destroyer (while the BS pilot won't be able to be of much help) ... before they'll provide a slow but certain death to the BS pilot ...
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Ozoneluke
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:06:00 -
[227]
Not that I'm happy with the changes, I will wait to see the changes before I make a final judgement.
My question on missile skills coming in, are they going to be lvl 5 required for the lower missiles to be able to train?
i.e. Torpedo speciality skill requires rocket lvl5/heavy missile lvl 5/ launcher lvl5?
Is there a possibility to include shredder missiles or ECM missiles? Can we get missile drones instead of these projectile drones?
Can EMP missiles do what they are mean't to do? In RL EMPs are used to disrupt electronics and communications. It would be nice if EMPs damaged shields and electronics but not damage armor and hull.
drools over what could be done with EMPs if they disrupted electronics.
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Olivin
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:07:00 -
[228]
Sorry, can't be bother to read 11 pages, but:
I think the whole "missile balance" idea is wrong because you can't really
balance missiles vs guns Just make missiles secondary weapon system
( like drones) by changing half of missile hardpoints to turret hardpoints
on all Caldari ships. And then go nuts with missile changes. Let torpedo
fly 230 km and do maximum damage to everything it finds and so on.
It's funny when torpedo which is almost same size as frigate can't
do any damage to it. It's goes against any logic.
It's also funny, when guided cruise missile can't hit the target,
just because it's small.
Olivin
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Verizana
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:28:00 -
[229]
Finally something done about this missiles man. Good changes. The raven was too strong.
----------
"I never give them hell, I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." -Harry Truman
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Lord Alex
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:34:00 -
[230]
dudes, please reconsider the changes, it will totaly ruin the game for a lot of people, myself included, even the easiest lvl 4 missions would become impossible in a raven , not the mention the scorp totaly ruined for npc... with the lack of ability to fire fof cruise with siege launchers... also... the new stealth bomber will kill a battleship? as his cuise will hit and do damage... while the bs cruise or torpiles will do 4-5 damage to it? it's absurd!!!
i expected a damage reductions from 550 to let's say 3-400 ... but to 5 ( FIVE !!! ) damage done with a torp to a fregate... that would make all missions imposible for the caldari race
... we can't all sit and mine for 3 months until gunnery and gallente skills are ready
Bottom line... PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THESE CHANGES to missile system., caldari race was already screwed too much .
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ShadowDuke
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:36:00 -
[231]
I would like to know why every one of my posts in this thread got deleted for proving a point?
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Flavius Renatus
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:46:00 -
[232]
OMG, Everyone STFU.
TOMB asked us to TEST AND REPORT the findings of the TEST. He did not asked for every Swinging D1CK to offer an opionion, or an alternative solution.
Help with the development of the game and TEST IT...Report what you have found.
God I hate these forums.
(Ancient Roman Military Historian)
Real Power Is Something You Take!!! |
JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.05.05 20:54:00 -
[233]
Edited by: JoeSomebody on 05/05/2005 20:54:06
Originally by: Flavius Renatus
OMG, Everyone STFU.
TOMB asked us to TEST AND REPORT the findings of the TEST. He did not asked for every Swinging D1CK to offer an opionion, or an alternative solution.
Help with the development of the game and TEST IT...Report what you have found.
God I hate these forums.
you know how it works... if you dont whine about it, you not gonna get it.
And we have seen examples of that happening 
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
Helmut Rul
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Posted - 2005.05.05 21:08:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Helmut Rul on 05/05/2005 21:12:33
Edited by: Helmut Rul on 05/05/2005 21:10:50
Well it is about time for missiles to get an overhaul , It will be interesting to see what the end result of all these tweaks will be.
While i personally fly only caldari ships and thusly have all missile skills at level 5 (after two years of training that is not to hard to accomplish) i belive that missiles should not have been in EVE at all in their current form.
It is painfully obvious that missiles are the black sheep of the family when compared to other weapons and this is after two years of constant tinkering with them, does anyone remember how utterly bad missiles were right after launch? I personally belive that when EVE was released missiles and the mechanics behind them mainly consisted of well intentioned but badly implemented ideas and in the two years that has passed missiles has been largely been patched up by quick fixes and other well intentioned but not too successful remedies.
Despite this however it is not possible to relegate missiles to a secondary role now, It might have been done early in the game (or perhaps even better missiles could have been cut entirely allowing the devs to consentrate on turreted weapons for all races), But at this moment far to many people rely on missiles for their survival.
After all the race with the most players in the game has the most ships relying on missiles and many players choose to specialize in the racial weapons, Therefore relegating missiles to the role of secondary weapons could possibly defang most of the caldari race(minmatar would get a blow too).
As for the changes proposed .... well i am cautiously optimistic as Weirda posted this is not the final draft and it may all work out well, The largest potential pitfall i foresee is that missile damage depends on two limiting factors namely both speed and signature radius and this may lead to situations where players manage to tweak their ships to such levels that not only smaller shipclasses but also ships of equal size may be rendered virtually immune to missile damage, Perhaps an upper limit of damage reduction ought to be introduced ?
Anyway i do hope that this works out, For far too long missiles has been the ugly stepchild that lurks in the shadows of its more clever and brilliant siblings, It is time that missiles come into their own as a class of weapons that pose serious threat to ships of their own class (without a delay comparable to watching paint dry) instead of being the weapon of preference when it comes to swatting frigates.
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Messerschmitt facility
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Posted - 2005.05.05 21:14:00 -
[235]
Sincerely I think this is one of the biggest stupid change it has occured after ECM (witch instead of 20% people jam like there were 80%)
_________________________________
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.05.05 21:21:00 -
[236]
Okay, this is what I suggest:
NOTE: please don't pick on the exact math, it's placeholder values. And read ALL of it.
Create a NEW attribute called "target radius". This is set on a per-class basis, essentially. Target Radius is base 75 for a cruiser. It is base 150 for a battleship, and base 50 for a frig. For interceptors, it is base ~40.
Base Explosion radius is as follows:
25m for rockets
50m for light missiles
75m for heavy missiles
125m for cruise missiles
150m for torpedos
Speed can reduce the target radius of the ship. If you are traveling at over the threshold of the missile that strikes you, then your target radius is REDUCED by the SQUARE ROOT of the difference in meters per second. If you are running a MWD, then
the threshholds are TRIPLED.
The threshhold values are:
2 km/s for rockets
1 km/s for light missiles
0.5 km/s for heavy missiles
0.25 km/s for cruise missiles
0.25 km/s for torpedos
THEN, to calculate damage, divide the explosion radius by the target radius.
Damage MAY NOT exceed the base missile damage.
Example:
Our target is a frigate. It does 500 m/s without no speed boost, 1100 m/s with an afterburner, and 3250 m/s WITH a MWD. It's base target radius is 50.
A light missile does full damage when the target is not speed boosted.
If the target is ABing, it's adjusted target radius against light missiles is 50-(SQRT(1100-1000))=40.
If the target is MWDing, it's adjusted target radius against light missiles is 50-(SQRT(3500-3000))=34.
The ABing frigate will take (40/50) = 80% damage.
The MWDing frigate will take (34/50) = 68% damage.
A heavy missile hits the frigate.
If it is not speed boosting, it's adjusted target radius against heavy missiles is 50-(SQRT(1000-500))=28.
If it is ABing, it's adjusted target radius against heavy missiles is 50-(SQRT(1100-500))=25.
If it is MWDing, it's adjusted target radius against heavy missiles is 50-(SQRT(3250-1500))=8.
The non-speed boosting frigate will take (28/50) = 58% damage
The ABing frigate will take (25/50) = 50% damage
The MWDing frigate will take (8/50) = 16% damage
Discuss :)
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Cheim
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Posted - 2005.05.05 21:34:00 -
[237]
Maya, your idea doesn't seem different from TomB's except for replacing signature radius with a radius by another name and having speed modify target radius instead of pitting it against explosion radius.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
THEN, to calculate damage, divide the explosion radius by the target radius.
Damage MAY NOT exceed the base missile damage.
That's how it works now. |
JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.05.05 21:39:00 -
[238]
Quote:
Damage MAY NOT exceed the base missile damage.
btw, I dont see any good reason for that. If missles gettin tracking/signature issues like turrets why wouldnt they get wrecking/well aimed hits?
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
ALTNAME
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Posted - 2005.05.05 21:50:00 -
[239]
All of these changes for this one reason
"Interceptors can be hit by something"
oh dear
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.05.05 22:00:00 -
[240]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2005 22:00:24
Cheim, it removes MODIFIERS from it though. The current use of sig radius leads to SILLY situations, unfortunately. And I like the idea of speed modifying target radius.
And I don't see the current damage being capped...
No, it's not RADICALLY different but I think it meets the design objectives WITHOUT creating silly damage situations like at present!
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
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