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AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
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Posted - 2012.12.05 19:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like anyone who has thoughts on how Corporation members killing another Corp members Orca or other high priced industry ship is "Combat mechanics working as intended." I understand corporation members allowed to engage in combat, perhaps for practice or what have you. But A disgruntled corporation members getting a free Orca kill or taking out a mining fleet? And nothing you can do except hold the memory hard in your heart and never talk to other players? This type of behavior kills relationships with other players.
Though I have never lost an Orca, I have seen examples of this kind of abuse and find it disturbing that there is nothing to really be done except forget about recruiting for corporations. Perhaps someone can explain why this is perfectly acceptable or how one might avoid this kind of abuse.
And yes, it is abuse. Scoring free kills because of a "Lolz, you let me in your corp" gets around the mystical ever watchful eye of CONCORD.
I would think CONCORD would respond to non-combat vessels in distress... or why bother having them in the first place? |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade
The East India Co.
517
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Posted - 2012.12.05 19:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Have you tried shooting back?
Bumping, leave it alone. |
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
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Posted - 2012.12.05 20:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
You try combat in an Orca against battleships, let me know how far it gets you :)
Besides, What I'm mostly referring to is two core problems.
1. Concord believes attacks on Industries is okay in High Sec? I don't see how this would make since on any level... they assume that Corporations are approving these actions?
2. Corporation members are allowed to betray each other and get away with it. No criminal flags are going to be thrown, this Retribution patch completely ignores this still present problem. Someone can do close to a billion ISK worth of damage to you for free, and the only recourse is "Well, don't trust anyone and play alone if you don't like it!"
There must be some middle ground... some way of allowing you to group with other players and not have this giant loop hole to worry about constantly. A corporation member should be the one person you can trust on some small level, as CCP does not allow you to recruit Orca's into your corporation for the sole purpose of killing them, neither should CCP allow members to join corps for the purpose of killing Orcas.
Edit: This comes from a GM reply to my concerns, stating that this is Corporation mechanics as intended. I have come to argue there is problem, where industrial ships are concerned. I think this should be reviewed as an exploit. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
782
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 22:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
AnJuan Jackson wrote:You try combat in an Orca against battleships, let me know how far it gets you :)
Besides, What I'm mostly referring to is two core problems.
1. Concord believes attacks on Industries is okay in High Sec? I don't see how this would make sense on any level... they assume that Corporations are approving these actions?
There are a several good reasons why you would allow corp mates to shoot industrials:
-- They could be used in some entertaining battle badger like tournament.
-- You might be insurance frauding them....
-- You are testing the their tank...
-- You are trying to stop a corp thief that is hauling your valuable assets off...
-- You are pissed off at the corp and want to inflict major damage to it...
So why should concord defend them????
Furthermore, if you truly believe these ships to be of such value, why don't YOU step up and keep it safe?
Examples:
a.) If it is so valuable, then why don't you have protection for it? Escort it with a Blackbird or Falcon or even a griffin so it can "get away". You could even store these ships inside the ship maintenance array, and have your corp mates switch to them if you get attacked.
b.) Alternatively, you can keep your valuable assets in an alt corp, away from potential hostilities of an AWOXer.
AnJuan Jackson wrote:
2. Corporation members are allowed to betray each other and get away with it. No criminal flags are going to be thrown, this Retribution patch completely ignores this still present problem. Someone can do close to a billion ISK worth of damage to you for free, and the only recourse is "Well, don't trust anyone and play alone if you don't like it!"
Trust should be earned.... My corp has "trial" periods, where members are given limited rights until they pass the trial period. You can use social media and forums to publicly declare AWOXers and Untrustworthy players for all of EvE to know about. Your ENTIRE corp can gang up on the member and destroy his stuff until he leaves corp, and then you can place bounties, declare wars, suicide gank, and socially sabotage him until you feel vengeance/justice has been served.
AnJuan Jackson wrote:
There must be some middle ground... some way of allowing you to group with other players and not have this giant loop hole to worry about constantly. A corporation member should be the one person you can trust on some small level, as CCP does not allow you to recruit Orca's into your corporation for the sole purpose of killing them, neither should CCP allow members to join corps for the purpose of killing Orcas.
You see all those options I listed above... that's the middle ground... What you are asking for is the ability to just straight up prevent someone from AWOXing your valuable industrial operations. That's not looking for a middle ground, that's flipping an OFF switch to make you and yours safe because you don't want to utilize any of the other methods.
AWOXing has a long tradition in EvE, and you need to have a VERY compelling argument why it should not be allowed! Frankly, all you've brought to the table is, it's not Socially/morally fair.... EvE is a dystopia, and Social/Moral unfairness is not only allowed, but encouraged!!!
Now, can you show why it is Mechanically Unfair? Can you give a reason, NOT centered around a moral compass, that these actions should be inhibited? Can you explain why the current AWOXing situation is unmanageable? Then, and only then, will you have an case worthy of discussion. |
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
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Posted - 2012.12.05 23:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Morality and Money are the two things that govern laws. This mechanic abuses both. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
782
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 00:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
AnJuan Jackson wrote:Morality and Money are the two things that govern laws. This mechanic abuses both.
Not in a dystopia...
A dystopia is a society most notable for it's Injustices, typically enforced by biased societal laws...
EvE Prides itself on allowing morally grey or inept behavior. The dev's purposely allow AWOXing, Scamming, in-game Stealing, Suicide Ganking, Piracy, Extortion, and all other socially reprehensible activities. If I steal your BPO collection from the corp hangar, should concord force me to give it back or pay you restitution? If I disband your alliance, should Concord re-form it for you?
CCP Dev's purposely avoid creating a mechanically enforced social/moral code. They purposely leave that to the player base, and it's up to you to enforce it...
Now, I provided you several examples of how to keep yourself safe, I gave several examples of why people want the ability to shoot corp mates. If the only reason for nerfing AWOXing is AWOXing conflicts with your personal moral code and causes you economic hardship, then you lose. Especially since you can take ingame steps to limit your vulnerability!!
/thread
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AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
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Posted - 2012.12.06 00:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
I still think your love of every other aspect of this game would not be bothered by an adjustment of the mechanic where industrial are concerned. Nice rant, but I don't see much credit to the argument that "It's the way it is because it has been."
That's why I'm asking for improvement.. |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
153
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Posted - 2012.12.06 00:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
You're supposed to trust the people in your corp. That is all this mechanic is about. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
782
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 01:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:You're supposed to trust the people in your corp. That is all this mechanic is about.
And this idea, essentially, is about forcing people in your corp to be trustworthy.... I don't particularly find that appropriate for EvE, and am vehemently against it. |
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 01:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
I think you abundantly made your point, Gizznit. I would like to hear some other views.
And, may I point out if you did want to attack your former corp members, there is a multitude of ways to do so...
And my argument is strictly high sec. There's no limits what you can do in other places of space. Live the life you want to, and don't assume we all wish to keep this faulty mechanic just because you find it "fitting." |
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Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
39
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Posted - 2012.12.06 03:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Easy fix. Make a new trial corporation for yourselves. This way everything is separate.
I know fleet mechanics can factor in as well but you can always kick them from fleet and let CONCORD do their job. |
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 03:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Michael Loney wrote:Easy fix. Make a new trial corporation for yourselves. This way everything is separate.
I know fleet mechanics can factor in as well but you can always kick them from fleet and let CONCORD do their job.
This is a good temporary solution for me, so thank you for posting ^^ I hadn't considered this. Even so, I think it's still valid I shouldn't have to have two corporation to do the job of one. But, I will adopt this technique for now. |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc.
BricK sQuAD.
214
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Posted - 2012.12.06 09:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Michael Loney wrote:I know fleet mechanics can factor in as well No, you can't shoot a fleet member (unless you're part of the same no-NPC corporation ofc).
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
819
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Posted - 2012.12.06 10:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ways to solve this:
Have recruitment standards. |
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Ways to solve this:
Have recruitment standards.
Because even the most well known pirate can't make a 1 day alt and pretend to be friendly or new?
Or lets say I take one a 10 Mill SP minimum and API check for industry skills, but they decide **** it, they never get kills and there's and Orca right there protected by a bunch of retrievers. Fit battleship out for, well, doesn't matter does it? Concord isn't gonna stop them anyway.
With almost no combat skills and a warp distrupter, boom, dead Orca. Maybe it was because they got into an argument with someone, maybe they want to turn pirate, or maybe they are just an asshat.
My point is I don't care why they suddenly choose to abuse this stupid mechanic, I haven't head a real reason to keep it. Just ways I should be working around it.
Saying I can work around it isn't a reason for the mechanic to exist.... Thanks anyways though. |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's
20
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
My point is I don't care why they suddenly choose to abuse this stupid mechanic, I haven't heard a real reason to keep it. Just ways I should be working around it.
Saying I can work around it isn't a reason for the mechanic to exist.... Thanks anyways though.
One reason to keep the mechanic is because the average hisec bear pilot doesn't have his/her overview setup to defensive or pvp tabs. Accidentally shooting each other whilst trying to defend a corpie is a real possibility.
TBH though if you have gotten to the point of disgruntled employee suspicion and not taken action first (removed roles, get ready to boot if it goes the way it is already, keep indy's out of harms way whilst the 24 hours cool down period ticks off etc. etc. ) then something bad is going to happen 9/10 times.
EVELOAN -áchannel is no longer attended.
Contact me directly over secured loans needed.
AdW
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AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 16:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
My point is I don't care why they suddenly choose to abuse this stupid mechanic, I haven't heard a real reason to keep it. Just ways I should be working around it.
Saying I can work around it isn't a reason for the mechanic to exist.... Thanks anyways though.
One reason to keep the mechanic is because the average hisec bear pilot doesn't have his/her overview setup to defensive or pvp tabs. Accidentally shooting each other whilst trying to defend a corpie is a real possibility. TBH though if you have gotten to the point of disgruntled employee suspicion and not taken action first (removed roles, get ready to boot if it goes the way it is already, keep indy's out of harms way whilst the 24 hours cool down period ticks off etc. etc. ) then something bad is going to happen 9/10 times.
The problem is even if you are ready to boot someone, kicking them out after the fact isn't going to help much. They already got what they wanted and were planning on leaving after anyway.
Edit: With the safety button, this is no longer a concern about shooting eachother. |
Elinea Marcutz
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.12.06 17:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Firstly, As the person that wants to change the existing system the burden of proof is on you. Prove to us that your mechanical enforcement of your moral standard will make the game better for EVERYONE.
Secondly, The first rule I learned in EvE was never trust someone out side of punching distance. If someone is out side of the range of your IRL fist, assume they have a dagger with your name on it.
Third, HTFU |
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 17:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
^ Removing a mechanic that only occurs a percentage of the time and wouldn't effect the game in a negative way for any of the people complaining about this, but improve the game for the people who are affected by it... Yeah I see why I need to explain my proof even further.
The only purpose of the Corporation Kill Mechanic seems to be to allow for abuse. And though players are forced to find ways to deal with it, still doesn't seem to be any evidence that it's existence is good, beneficial, or logical.
The one argument was friendly fire, which Retribution has made moot. So, I ask again, why should this not be revisited? If not across the board, at least where Industrial vessels are concerned.
Taking advantage of this in the past does not mean it should continue for the rest of the game. |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade
The East India Co.
526
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 17:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
AnJuan Jackson wrote:You try combat in an Orca against battleships, let me know how far it gets you :)
You could, you know, have other corpmates shoot them. You do have other people in your corp, right? Some of them have ships that mount guns, right?
Right?!?
Snarky trolling aside, if you want to protect your valuable assets, man up and protect them instead of crying to CCP to do it for you.
Bumping, leave it alone. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
1197
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Posted - 2012.12.06 18:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Don't see the point in changing this mechanic. It's fine as is.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 18:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Don't see the point in changing this mechanic. It's fine as is.
I'll bite, why is that? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
1197
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Posted - 2012.12.06 19:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
AnJuan Jackson wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Don't see the point in changing this mechanic. It's fine as is. I'll bite, why is that?
Do I really need to give an explanation? If so, then this is better suited for the F&I forums than the Assembly Hall. I'm simply expressing my "yey" or "ney" vote here.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
AnJuan Jackson
Red Star Trading Industries
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 22:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
I wasn't asking for a vote, this topic is entirely for discussion. If you don't feel like stating your views, that's fine, but that is why this thread is here. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
361
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
AnJuan Jackson wrote:I wasn't asking for a vote, this topic is entirely for discussion. If you don't feel like stating your views, that's fine, but that is why this thread is here.
I think he quite clearly stated his views. I happen to agree with him.
I think a good point was made earlier in theis thread:
Quote:Furthermore, if you truly believe these ships to be of such value, why don't YOU step up and keep it safe?
Examples:
a.) If it is so valuable, then why don't you have protection for it? Escort it with a Blackbird or Falcon or even a griffin so it can "get away". You could even store these ships inside the ship maintenance array, and have your corp mates switch to them if you get attacked.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
AnJuan Jackson
SHUN THE NON BELIEVER
Li3 Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.12.07 21:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
I still think your average battleship will take an Orca down in aprox. 40-55 seconds. Meaning, protection is moot coming from anyone in your corp who would only have to lightly tank the BS to kill it.
I still maintain there is no way to effectively stop people from abusing it. Even if he pays with his ship, he's still going to get an Orca kill. And that assumes a bunch of miners even have the skills to take him on with the "protection" they'll be flying. He'll probably just shoot all of them down too.
But, I realize I'm in the minority on this topic. I doubt I'm going to see any change made to this despite no compelling argument to keep the loophole or any real way to prevent its abuse.
Edit: I also believe the other poster simply stating "I think the mechanic is fine the way it is." Isn't as helpful to stating your view when they offer none of the reasons why they supported it. At least Jint quoted examples. |
Corian Teranos
AirHogs
Zulu People
21
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Posted - 2012.12.07 22:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
you can always place a bounty on them :/ not supported it has been this way forever
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AnJuan Jackson
SHUN THE NON BELIEVER
Li3 Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.12.07 22:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Corian Teranos wrote:you can always place a bounty on them :/ not supported it has been this way forever
That's my point, everyone seems to be in favor of having to go through pointless work arounds for a mechanic that shouldn't exist... but are just used to it always being there.
And don't get me started on the bounties in retribution. Everyone in the universe has a bounty for talking in local chat or looking the wrong way at someone. Mostly meaningless. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
1201
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 22:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
AnJuan Jackson wrote:I still maintain there is no way to effectively stop people from abusing it.
Get a corpmate to fly a Blackbird. Even if the hostile corpie is fitted to the brim with ECCM, a Blackbird fitted entirely with ECM is going to land a jam cycle against a single target.
AnJuan Jackson wrote:Even if he pays with his ship, he's still going to get an Orca kill. And that assumes a bunch of miners even have the skills to take him on with the "protection" they'll be flying. He'll probably just shoot all of them down too.
If your combat abilities are really that lacking, then the plan should not be to "take him down" but to stall him so everyone else can get away safely. Then kick him from corp.
AnJuan Jackson wrote:I doubt I'm going to see any change made to this despite no compelling argument to keep the loophole or any real way to prevent its abuse.
There is no abuse. It's your corp and your assets. YOU are supposed protect it. Not the game.
Beyond this... being in a corp has always been about "tradeoffs." Creating a corp give you the ability to set up a corp hanger and a POS... but you open yourself up to War Decs. You have the capacity to let in who you want, when you want and no one can force you to do otherwise... but that means that those you do allow in gain the ability to be hostile towards you if they so wish (which actually encourages people to be nice to each other, lest someone in corp gets mad and decides to do something about it).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
795
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 23:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
AnJuan Jackson wrote:I still think your average battleship will take an Orca down in aprox. 40-55 seconds. Meaning, protection is moot coming from anyone in your corp who would only have to lightly tank the BS to kill it.
This statement makes no sense....
While the time to down an Orca (40-60s) is reasonable, given a gank fit BS and a completely untanked (no dcu) Orca. I don't understand what is moot?
I realize that understanding what is happening and reacting takes a few seconds, but getting a corp mate to uncloak in a falcon and jam a BS, getting a corpmate to switch to the griffin and jam that ship doesn't take 40 seconds... (unless you are afk). I think I understand now... for some reason you think you need to kill the BS to save the Orca... this is not the case, you only need to Jam the BS so the orca can get away....
AnJuan Jackson wrote:I still maintain there is no way to effectively stop people from abusing it. Even if he pays with his ship, he's still going to get an Orca kill. And that assumes a bunch of miners even have the skills to take him on with the "protection" they'll be flying. He'll probably just shoot all of them down too.
Miner's don't need to take out the BS first and foremost.... They could all release EC drones (the orca too) and have them jam out the BS.... You only need to initially get away and then you can regroup and decide how to deal with the "rotten apple". As ShahFluffers pointed out, that should be your strategy....
AnJuan Jackson wrote:But, I realize I'm in the minority on this topic. I doubt I'm going to see any change made to this despite no compelling argument to keep the loophole or any real way to prevent its abuse.
You know, you first asked: "Perhaps someone can explain why this is perfectly acceptable or how one might avoid this kind of abuse."
I posted several reasons why it is useful... which you completely ignored....
I posted several ways you can protect yourself... which you completely ignored...
I then asked you extremely pertinent questions as to "why this should be changed"....
And your only response was essentially: EvE laws, and hence it's mechanics, should enforce morally and economically fair behavior... which is a fluff answer... You haven't presented a compelling argument as to why it's a problem. Sure, you've posted that some people have suffered losses do to this mechanic... but so what.... but people suffer losses do to Scamming, Corp Thievery, Suicide Ganking, Piracy, Extortion, and much and more... and CCP has a long history of not only allowing that behavior, but promote it in their game.
And look, Shah Fluffers just posted another reason to allow in-corp aggresssion...
So, why don't you take a step back and focus:
Explain how the situation is unmanageable? And more precisely, explain why the ways you can currently protect yourself are inadequate.
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