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reamau
Galactic Alta Imperata
3
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Posted - 2011.10.05 19:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
With Helmar's reference to non-revenue play, I'm just wondering about the economic model for Eve's subscriptions.
Would be interesting to understand how that money is applied-
I'm pretty sure we are paying for:
- Eve server and bandwidth. Associated salaries, etc, basically operations to keep the game running.
- New development and content for Eve. (I'd suggest not so much)
But how much are we Eve players paying for:
- DUST development?
- WoD development?
- Other?
I don't believe they post anything like these numbers, but as a player I'm not wild about funding development for games that I won't play at the expense of what I AM paying for.
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Djeckson
3
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Posted - 2011.10.05 19:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
reamau wrote:as a player I'm not wild about funding development for games that I won't play at the expense of what I AM paying for.
That's the reality of all businesses. Some of the profit on things you buy at your local walmart will be used to put up a walmart in montana you will never use.
Deal with it. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
86
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Posted - 2011.10.05 19:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
The myth that subscriptions are required to pay for server and bandwidth have been debunked heavily by ArenaNet. Just an FYI.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
69
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Let me just put this PRESS INTERVIEW from CCP here...
www.wodnews.net/Home/tabid/41/ctl/ArticleView/mid/401/articleId/69/New-WoD-MMO-info-from-The-Grand-Masquerade.aspx
Quote:
Incarna is actually considered a prototype, the rendering engine that will ship with the MMO will be much more advanced.
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Revajin
15 Minute Outliers
Chained Reactions
11
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Oh wow, sorry, I was about to reply with something negative but then I remembered we all live in a magical fantasy world where buying anything from a company immediately makes you a shareholder and thus able to have an opinion on where that business should spend its money. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
53
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
The money goes to CCP. You receive game time. End of transaction.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
0
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
So when you buy a car from a manufacturer you don't expect any of those funds to go towards development of other models or when you buy a PC those companies don't develop other technologies?
Of course CCP are going to put funds into other projects this doesn't make them evil or mean that you arnt getting value for your subscription.
I'm more bothered that every-month the government takes taxes from me which I have no say in to fund layabouts who do feck all   |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
69
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:The money goes to CCP. You receive game time. End of transaction.
It's never over until you purchase one of my luxury hulks. |
reamau
Galactic Alta Imperata
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 20:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Djeckson wrote:reamau wrote:as a player I'm not wild about funding development for games that I won't play at the expense of what I AM paying for.
That's the reality of all businesses. Some of the profit on things you buy at your local walmart will be used to put up a walmart in montana you will never use. Deal with it.
Such a nice simple response. Plenty of historical precedent for raising concerns about how a company behaves.
I don't see anything in my post claiming that I had a right to know every detail- but as any paying customer for a service, I should know what I'm paying for.
My point, perhaps too subtle for some, is that I bet we are getting shortchanged on EVE content due to other development efforts going elsewhere- development efforts probably paid for by Eve.
Paying for a new car is not the same thing as continuously paying for a service. Use a service as an example.
I know CCP has a right to make money, I just object to paying for a console game instead of new spaceships. |
Revajin
15 Minute Outliers
Chained Reactions
11
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
reamau wrote:Djeckson wrote:reamau wrote:as a player I'm not wild about funding development for games that I won't play at the expense of what I AM paying for.
That's the reality of all businesses. Some of the profit on things you buy at your local walmart will be used to put up a walmart in montana you will never use. Deal with it. Such a nice simple response. Plenty of historical precedent for raising concerns about how a company behaves. I don't see anything in my post claiming that I had a right to know every detail- but as any paying customer for a service, I should know what I'm paying for. My point, perhaps too subtle for some, is that I bet we are getting shortchanged on EVE content due to other development efforts going elsewhere- development efforts probably paid for by Eve. Paying for a new car is not the same thing as continuously paying for a service. Use a service as an example. I know CCP has a right to make money, I just object to paying for a console game instead of new spaceships.
You are told exactly what you are paying for. The ability to install and use the EVE Online client to connect to a CCP server and play the game. |
Nel Gardier
Time Sync
9
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Doesn't look like it's currently going far enough based on Hilmar's mea culpa/spin depending on how you want to look at it.
Amazing how your world view can change when the rest of the board tells you your job is on the line. |
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
0
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
reamau wrote:Djeckson wrote:reamau wrote:as a player I'm not wild about funding development for games that I won't play at the expense of what I AM paying for.
That's the reality of all businesses. Some of the profit on things you buy at your local walmart will be used to put up a walmart in montana you will never use. Deal with it. Such a nice simple response. Plenty of historical precedent for raising concerns about how a company behaves. I don't see anything in my post claiming that I had a right to know every detail- but as any paying customer for a service, I should know what I'm paying for. My point, perhaps too subtle for some, is that I bet we are getting shortchanged on EVE content due to other development efforts going elsewhere- development efforts probably paid for by Eve. Paying for a new car is not the same thing as continuously paying for a service. Use a service as an example. I know CCP has a right to make money, I just object to paying for a console game instead of new spaceships.
You might think its a nice simple response but you are being incredibly naive if you think your objections actually hold water.
Gas, Electricity, Phone, Broadband, Insurance all services which I pay for on a monthly basis and all my money goes to paying for the service and also funding the companies other products.
I cant think of any companies where I buy services from where I can say without a doubt that money is only going into the development or support of that one service.
Quite frankly I don't care. As long as I am happy with the service I will continue to pay, if I am not happy then I switch provider I don't phone up BT and tell them to stop developing their on-line services or streaming television services because I only use their phone and broadband.
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Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
82
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
reamau wrote:
With Helmar's reference to non-revenue play, I'm just wondering about the economic model for Eve's subscriptions.
Would be interesting to understand how that money is applied-
I'm pretty sure we are paying for:
- Eve server and bandwidth. Associated salaries, etc, basically operations to keep the game running.
- New development and content for Eve. (I'd suggest not so much)
But how much are we Eve players paying for:
- DUST development?
- WoD development?
- Other?
I don't believe they post anything like these numbers, but as a player I'm not wild about funding development for games that I won't play at the expense of what I AM paying for.
Building Cost or Rent, Phone Lines, Computers, software licences, Gas, Electricity, Office supplies, Office Furniture, Building Upkeep. Contractor to mow the lawn, Business Licenses, taxes .etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Capitals (Balancing and Roles) |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:[quote=reamau]
Building Cost or Rent, Phone Lines, Computers, software licences, Gas, Electricity, Office supplies, Office Furniture, Building Upkeep. Contractor to mow the lawn, Business Licenses, taxes .etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Which part of the "basically operations to keep the game running." you dont understand. |
Jita Alt666
311
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dear Op: please provide a break down of where the money you pay for rent (if applicable) or your mortgage (if applicable) goes. |
Jita Alt666
311
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Revajin wrote:Oh wow, sorry, I was about to reply with something negative but then I remembered we all live in a magical fantasy world where buying anything from a company immediately makes you a shareholder and thus able to have an opinion on where that business should spend its money.
Blame the rise in "ethical business". I want to know that the coffee I am drinking... ...here is some management speak for you:
Quote:Consumers are not shareholders, but they are stakeholders who need to be kept happy |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
16
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote: Where does EVE subscription money go?
It goes to CCP.
That's all we need to know. Once it's out of our pocket, it's theirs to do what they want with it.
If we are unhappy with how we think they are using it, we don't give them any more. If we feel we are getting what we pay for, we shell out for another month.
I'm good with that.
Mr Epeen 
If you can read this, you haven't blocked me yet. |
reamau
Galactic Alta Imperata
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 20:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't believe I'm being naive at all- new content has been promised many times, and over the last year it has been almost non-existant.
When looking at the company's info, they have one active product (Eve) and two large products in development.
It is not unreasonable for a company to spend a portion of its revenue on new product development- in fact, its probably neccessary in order to survive.
However, it is not unreasonable for paying customers to challenge what they paying for, especially if they feel they are not getting all of what they expect.
For all we know, maybe none of our subsciption fees are financing DUST and WoD, and its all paid for from loans or investors or whatever. Given the lack of new content for Eve, I kinda doubt it.
@Jita Alt666 - you'd have to ask my bank about the breakdown of my mortgage payment- I just write the check. That's repaying a loan, not paying for a service, so I'm not sure of the relevance.
@Epeen - if you read my opening post, you should see that I said something like "it would be interesting to see" or something like that, not demanding that they open their financials to my scrutiny.
Maybe I've worked for public companies for too long- we've always had to show basics of how much goes to R&D, marketing costs, and similar. I know CCP isn't public or even a US company- but I'm still allowed to suggest that maybe we are paying for something we aren't getting. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
16
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Posted - 2011.10.05 21:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
reamau wrote:
@Epeen - if you read my opening post, you should see that I said something like "it would be interesting to see" or something like that, not demanding that they open their financials to my scrutiny.
I did read it and I agree it would be interesting. But what a can of worms it would open with this bunch of entitled, self important financial geniuses that post here.
So I chose to simply respond to the query posited in the thread title.
Mr Epeen
If you can read this, you haven't blocked me yet. |
Revajin
15 Minute Outliers
Chained Reactions
11
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Posted - 2011.10.05 21:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
reamau wrote:However, it is not unreasonable for paying customers to challenge what they paying for, especially if they feel they are not getting all of what they expect.
So far CCP has provided what they promised. I was successfully able to run the EVE client and use it to connect to their servers. That's what I'm paying them for. The problem people have with videogames is that they assume that the money they pay is going towards what's in the actual game. That's simply not the case, your paying for a license to use the software. That's all. The reality is CCP owes us nothing and some of us have a hard time grasping that. |
mkint
118
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Posted - 2011.10.05 21:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Do we deserve for EVE to be continually patched and expanded? No, that's not part of the written contract. Does CCP deserve for us to stay subbed? Only if each month has more reason to stay subbed than the previous one. Do players deserve the right to complain, inquire, discuss that development is falling short of expectations? Yes.
Saying players don't pay for expansions is technically true. However, if a subscription consistently loses value, the players have a right to be upset. If value is determined in EVE by "things to do," "stagnation" is defined by "the longer you play, the fewer things there are for you to do."
For comparison, a stagnating game is equivalent to getting a haircut one month by a renown stylist. Next month, a regular haircutter. A few months later, an intern. All while paying the same price.
Or, the gas pumps slowly replacing high octane gas with less efficient alcohol.
Or watered down drinks at the bar.
And then imagine one of these places tries to sell you an $85 2oz bottle of shampoo/quart of oil/game of pool.
Such is the state of EVE right now. The customer's option is to either complain trying to make things better, or to pack up and leave. |
Industrializer Tekitsu
Everlasting Forge
Imperial Ascension
2
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Posted - 2011.10.05 21:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
How can we hide threads? |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
26
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Posted - 2011.10.05 22:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
reamau wrote:... but as a player I'm not wild about funding development for games that I won't play at the expense of what I AM paying for.
It's not what you were up to, but this line ruined your whole post. |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 22:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
mkint wrote:... Only if each month has more reason to stay subbed than the previous one. ...
No, that's wrong.
That's like believing that the second part of a trilogy HAS to be better than the first part.
That's simply nonsense.
It's enough if the next month gives AT LEAST the same reason etc etc. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
166
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Posted - 2011.10.05 23:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Great point OP.
Get the customers of the company you work for to ask what the employees are being paid and to provide details of what they are spending their money on....
You could tell them "Eve" and help get some subs in.
Nice. I like it. +1
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest.
WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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The Apostle
The Black Priests
166
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 23:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
mkint wrote:Such is the state of EVE right now. The customer's option is to either complain trying to make things better, or to pack up and leave.
Anyone that has ever run a business knows that most disenfranchised customers don't actually complain, they just don''t come back.
Anyone that has ever run a business also knows that customers that bring forward a genuine concern, seeking a solution, and get assistance towards that solution, are the best customers of all.
I think CCP tends towards the latter, don't you?
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest.
WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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EVE Stig
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2011.10.05 23:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
yet again, its nice when CCP tell ppl that they are beta testing WoD by using EVE
Quote:Incarna is actually considered a prototype, the rendering engine that will ship with the MMO will be much more advanced.
"Some say that he is actually dead, but the Grim Reaper is too afraid to tell him."
"Some say he is the 3rd member of Daft Punk and he did the vocals of "Technologic" song. All we know is,he's called EVE Stig"! |
Jennifer Celeste
The Dark Horses.
2
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Posted - 2011.10.05 23:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
reamau wrote:
I don't believe they post anything like these numbers, but as a player I'm not wild about funding development for games that I won't play at the expense of what I AM paying for.
they dont have to because theyre not a publicly traded company. They only have to answer to their investors. Dont like that youre paying for other products to be developed aside from the one youre paying for? Well then you might as well cancel every payment youre making to every service you're paying for. |
mkint
119
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Posted - 2011.10.05 23:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:mkint wrote:... Only if each month has more reason to stay subbed than the previous one. ... No, that's wrong. That's like believing that the second part of a trilogy HAS to be better than the first part. That's simply nonsense. It's enough if the next month gives AT LEAST the same reason etc etc.
Most of EVE's content is consumable. Whether it's missions getting old, mining getting old, or whatever, once you've mastered it, there is no reason to ever do it again for it's own sake.
As a new player logging in for the first time, EVE is a huge universe with massive amounts of content. Within a month a player can consume lvl 1 and 2 missions, and a big chunk of mining. At 6 months they can consume pretty much every mechanic in the game. Player interactions provide a lot more content, but can still be consumed. Every single time you master something new, EVE and it's future gets smaller for you.
It's up to devs to create the interactions. For example, when CCP Greyscale gave all sov to a handful of his friends by nerfing the income of everyone else, there is no longer any purpose to joining a corp, since there is no longer anything to do with one once you've got one built up, and thus wiping out millions of potential individual interactions. If there are no longer any new interactions or content to consume, the game will die. For EVE to live forever, there must be MORE possibilities next month than there were last month.
fake edit: stupid lolwebdevs, and your ****** post-eating forums... seriously, you must be proud of how you've risen to such mediocre heights |
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
33
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Posted - 2011.10.05 23:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
If you guys owned shares in a company It'd be a lot more realistic that you could ask for anything from them.. But paying for a service gets you nothing but that service.
I've seen this kind of thing said before on these forums.
We do not pay for anything else CCP is doing only the game time.
Amazingly enough you get that game time and than think you have rights to tell CCP what else they should or shouldn't be doing.
I'd like to be able to tell blizzard that since I paid for Starcraft 2 then I think I have the right to tell them that it's best for them to stop WOW and put everything into Diablo 3.
"Because I gave them money. They should do what I say. Make it so!!"
But people would naturally say that is a crazy thing to do.
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