You claimed it was better (under the pretext that it waa truesolo) which it isnt!

Yes its faster and no that nothing new, it just means that with force multipliers the talos is better then the vaga due to high enough speed, extreme dps, good range! We obviously cant decide about the true solo 10n talos!

It is faster than a truesolo vaga which emans it can engage at its own terms as much as it wants, but its better at most of the other stuff aswell (frigs beeing the exception)!

(seeing as it makes no difference if the vaga is snaked/linked or not, its fast enough either way so the linked/snaked 10mn talos obsoletes the vaga)

I never claimed that all kiting ships that put out better damage obsolete the vaga, your reading to much into this! I said that tier3s do (well mainly the talos) but thats it!

My point was 1600m/s base mwd speed is fast enough to kite, as is 1300m/s! Beeing able to kite doesnt mean by default that they obsolete the vaga!

Ok, so what is it that makes them obsolete the Vagabond? The raw damage? The range? The ability to kite with raw damage and range? What, specifically, is it?

-Liang

Ed: Since you're so damn fond of EFT, what EFT stats are required to obsolete the Vagabond?

The thing about it is that TrueSolo neither Talos is going to kill the Vaga. And once we start talking about gangs of people engaging a TrueSolo guy... well, BIG SURPRISE, GANGS WIN.


-Liang

The ability to kill what can outrun them and to outrun what they cant kill!

No, mwd taloi kill vagas all day long (many many pvp videos that have been released can prove that to you)!

No, mwd taloi kill vagas all day long (many many pvp videos that have been released can prove that to you)!

That doesn't feel like a particularly good criteria. Let's try something more concrete?

-Liang

Ed: I went back and read the thread again. You were pretty emphatic that 1600 m/s is fast enough to obsolete the Vagabond. True/False?

there is believing and then there are facts. you sir are a believer. you believe your OP vaga isn't OP enough and should be able to fight every ship in the game and win. sorry to say the old days of winmatar are over...you have to now contend with new types of ships capable of pooping you. and if you care to cry some more....because i do enjoy your tears. I herd nothing about web drones in this thread about nerfing your vaga. yes i **** nano gangs and i love farming supposed elite pvp tears. mmm those are the best.

As a base mwd speed yes!

If another talos direct line approaches you they will get in range. You are assuming that your "fly at an angle" strategy is unbeatable. I really don't understand why you are making this pointless argument. Both ships have the same combat ranges - by fitting a 100mn you are almost certainly having to down grade from neutrons, which means a 10mn talos doesnt even NEED to approach you, he has better effective range with neutrons anyway... He can sit stationary and he will have identical tracking to you (perhaps a little different since ion's would track better marginally). In the end that scenario comes down to tank, not mobility... or maybe lucky ec-300 jams.

Here is what makes Vaga obsolete:

Vaga: 180 mil ISK
Minmatar Cruiser 5, Minmatar Frigate 4, Heavy Assault Ships 1, Assault Ships 4, Engineering 5, Mechanics 5, Weapon Upgrades 5], Gunnery 2, Spaceship Command 5


Talos: 90 mil ISK
Gallente Cruiser 3, Gallente Frigate 4, Battlecruisers 3, Spaceship Command 4

OP and all elitists are raging about an SP and ISK affordable hull that kicks ass. Nerfing Agility won't change that one bit.

As a poster said before. This only results is more fun and PvP for everyone. The elitsts of course will shed tears for their elitist ships that are now not the undisputed King of the Hill anymore and aside from elitist dreams totally obsolete due to the fact that you get marginal performance increase with a huge ISK and SP investment. Keep your Vaga, me and my low ISK and low SP mate will come and polish the hull of your slave/link Vaga for you, Blaster style. The feast on elitist tears may continue.

Vaga is vastly more speedy and agile and has better tracking (not to mention better tank because of T2 resists). Talos has twice the damage but is slower, has poorer tracking and is less agile.... I'm sorry but why does this thread even exist?

to all nerf winnies ....

.... try to find out how to pilot the ship before u cry on the forums ....


Both of these ships have their roles and vaga does not become obsolete because of the talos, but because of navy and normal cruisers boost.

Vaga still carries some advantages (t2 resists, neut) but cannot justify the incredibly stupid price over the SFI - which is actually only result of the CCPs masssive failure with tier system in FW.

Actually more dangerous then talos is megapulse oracle or AC nado. They are faster if fited properly and they only lack small drones.

Talos can be easily melted by 1 frig with scram and web, vaga will still have decent chance.

As a pilot in AF I would definitely brurn for talos from 20km range (to get under his guns). But I would definitely not do it with vaga (would get neutef and melted).

The tracking of the talos is comparable to the vagabond due to 37.5% bonus the talos gets. And although it's slower, it's not slow by much - back in the days of real nano the vagabond had interceptor speeds. Now it's just a fast cruiser and the talos isn't a lot behind it.

Look I know your 100mn talos with no damage mods might be literally 10 times better than anything in every way ever, but you're double and triple posting and writing walls of text and at this point people aren't even reading it.

I've seen plenty of people do exactly what you said. I've also seen 5 light drone fk up a frigates day VERY quickly. A talos with twin nano's is only 200-400 MS slower than most AFs. Do the math and tell me how long it takes you to cover 20km, straight line, when you are only gaining 400m a second.

20000 / 400 = 50 seconds.

We'll cut that down to 25 seconds due to your better acceleration, and the fact that you wont be at 0 - you will be orbitting at about 5-6k km.

That's 25 seconds of straight line, MWD Bloomed damage you are taking. Even with an AF's sig radius bonus, i don't see it ending well.

To track (score a 50% hit chance) an Enyo at 20km with Neutron Blaster Canon loaded with navy ammo (highest tracking) + twin TE, you need the Enyo to have a transversal lower than 30,8 m/s.

Also, as soon as the frigate hit you with a web, or even worse, a scram, your speed vanish, and you are doomed. That is 13km without anything but overload on a T2 web.

Also, any time the range drop, you track the frigate worse.

Also, I never saw anyone using something else than navy antimatter, which have a range of 6000m on 2TE neutron Talos. Null ammo tracking is 25% worse.

Also, overheated MWD push the speed difference to the advantage of the frigate.

Which mean that if the frigate pilot is not that bad and is spiraling to you, he have a rather good chance of catching you. If, on top of that, the frigate pilote manage to kill your drones (and AF do this fairly well), you are doomed (I love this word).

Which mean that the Vagabond is a lot better than the Talos to kill frigates. Of course, you are not harmless with a Talos against frigs, though you must be *very* careful, because the tiniest mistake will kill you.

Thanks for reading half my post. Well played.

To track (score a 50% hit chance) an Enyo at 20km with Neutron Blaster Canon loaded with navy ammo (highest tracking) + twin TE, you need the Enyo to have a transversal lower than 30,8 m/s.

Also, as soon as the frigate hit you with a web, or even worse, a scram, your speed vanish, and you are doomed. That is 13km without anything but overload on a T2 web.

Also, any time the range drop, you track the frigate worse.

Also, I never saw anyone using something else than navy antimatter, which have a range of 6000m on 2TE neutron Talos. Null ammo tracking is 25% worse.

Also, overheated MWD push the speed difference to the advantage of the frigate.

Which mean that if the frigate pilot is not that bad and is spiraling to you, he have a rather good chance of catching you. If, on top of that, the frigate pilote manage to kill your drones (and AF do this fairly well), you are doomed (I love this word).

Which mean that the Vagabond is a lot better than the Talos to kill frigates. Of course, you are not harmless with a Talos against frigs, though you must be *very* careful, because the tiniest mistake will kill you.

You math are terrible m8, a enyo get hit (badly), to it has over 1500m/s transversal if its using a usual aproach (i.e click half way between your centered target and the edge of your screen) than the neyo will take 450dps at 30 or 323dps at 20, which is enough especially as thats without drones (especially if you consider that a vagabond does a whole lot less)!

(Also if you take in force multipliers the talos is simply faster than the enyo so theres little danger at all!)

Is liang going off the deep end again? Justification of bad fits always makes me lol. Keep up the comedy act liang

Because usually most "good" pvpers fly with links (and most nanopilots belong to that group) while nullsec sov guys dont, and bigger lowsec groups sometimes dont aswell (also if you fighting good lowsec pvpers they usually wont have any frigates with them as they than usually are flashy and plan to take sentry aggro) and what the vagabond/talos are best at is picking off bads, so you most likely will be in a situation were its you beeing linked/(snakes) vs a group of bads.

A talos cant do much solo to a good gang but neither can the vagabond!