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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
19
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Posted - 2012.12.13 04:13:00 -
[61] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.
I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.
Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.
And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.
I wouldn't call it shredding frigs and the fact you're citing that video illustrates how little of it you understood. Go watch it again - I spend an enormous amount of time doing two things: - Shooting from 40km+ - Making people fly directly towards me. The Vagabond tracks many many times better than the Talos - it's just a fact. It kills frigs far more reliably, and in many ways it's just a flat superior ship. The ability for the Talos to "load void and flay a target" - especially in the kind of fit I was flying - is utterly ridiculous. Have you even flown the ship or are you just complaining? Because it damn sure doesn't fly like you think it does. -Liang
Its true that a solo talos has a harder time killing friagtes than the vaga (but the tracking formula helps, 0 transversal = full damage), this stilld oesnt cahnge the fact that against pretty much everything else the talos is much better, it has sufficient speed (especially if snakes/linked vs unspported stuff), it has more dps, more range, simlar tank!
Also the big going point for the vaga the anti frig capabilitys becomes void if you start to think in gang terms, 5 talos and a rapier are simply better than 5 vagas and a rapier, because then you end up beeing able to kill every frig almost instantly!
And the main going point of the vaga vs the talos (and pretty much any other ship) is its speed, but above a certain point more speed doesnt really help you, and that point can be pretty much reached in a talos with snakes/links!
And i also think that tier3s arent very helpfull atm, they kind of killed the kiting cruisers off ! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2367
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:26:00 -
[62] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: My experience with the vagabond far outweighs my talos experience . If you watch Kil2's stuff you can see what i mean about loading void. He demonstrates it perfectly against a drake. That's something you just cant do in a vaga, take out reasonably tanked missile ships. The vaga relies on out-ranging most of the incoming damage and but doesnt have the straight up killing power of other HAC's/BC's in terms of in-your-face damage.
For projection and tracking, yes the vagabond is superior. For tank, DPS and cost the talos is superior. Tracking enhancers buffed the vaga, but they also increased that danger 'kill-zone' of other ships - for example the hurricane can do more damage than a vagabond but was always limited by it's falloff. With the TE changes is can easily keep up with the vagabond inside point range... unless you for out 70% of the vagabonds hull price on a 30km point and sit further out.
I don't think either ship should be nerfed - i feel the vagabond is a little out of date though, which is maybe the point this thread should have made instead of straight out saying the talos replaces the vagabond...
The problem is that you're thinking Kil2 and I fly the same kind of Talos fits. We don't - at all. We both contend each other's fit is complete garbage and he seems pretty content to think I'm a terrible PVPer. Since you seem to be fond of watching Kil2's PVP, look at how many times he's been rendered completely vulnerable by a frigate in that Talos. You're looking at my video and looking at his video and thinking you can get the same performance out of both fits - and that's just incredibly wrong.
You point out that the Vagabond is feeling a little out of date, but it isn't the Talos (or Tier 3s) that are doing that to it. Hell, for the situations that everyone keeps bringing up, the Talos isn't even the best of the Tier 3s.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2367
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:34:00 -
[63] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Its true that a solo talos has a harder time killing friagtes than the vaga (but the tracking formula helps, 0 transversal = full damage), this stilld oesnt cahnge the fact that against pretty much everything else the talos is much better, it has sufficient speed (especially if snakes/linked vs unspported stuff), it has more dps, more range, simlar tank!
Also the big going point for the vaga the anti frig capabilitys becomes void if you start to think in gang terms, 5 talos and a rapier are simply better than 5 vagas and a rapier, because then you end up beeing able to kill every frig almost instantly!
And the main going point of the vaga vs the talos (and pretty much any other ship) is its speed, but above a certain point more speed doesnt really help you, and that point can be pretty much reached in a talos with snakes/links!
And i also think that tier3s arent very helpfull atm, they kind of killed the kiting cruisers off !
What are you talking about man? A few comments: - The Vagabond has dramatically superior mobility. - The Vagabond has a dramatically superior tank. - The Vagabond has a smaller sig radius. - The Vagabond has better range. - The Vagabond tracks almost 6.5x better than the Talos (even with dual LSE and shield rigs!) - The Vagabond has similar kiting DPS. - Once you start talking about putting snakes+links on a Talos, you might as well talk about what putting snakes+links does to everything else. The Talos, again, falls short.
I mean don't get me wrong - I like the Talos just fine. But you guys are making it out to be some big bad monster that it isn't. And some of you make all the Tier 3s out to be this monster, and they aren't either.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
200
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:02:00 -
[64] - Quote
Just ignore Liang he still has no clue at all.
Talos is superiot cause it is not winmatard ship thats all needs to be said. |
Voi Lutois
The Tough Guys
16
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:48:00 -
[65] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Just ignore Liang he still has no clue at all.
Talos is superiot cause it is not winmatard ship thats all needs to be said.
Liang speaks the truth. Stop whining about the talos, it doesn't need nerfed, the **** ships need buffed fool. HACS in general could use a little love and I'm sure they will get some in one of the next rounds of that tiericide stuffs. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
200
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:22:00 -
[66] - Quote
Voi Lutois wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Just ignore Liang he still has no clue at all.
Talos is superiot cause it is not winmatard ship thats all needs to be said. Liang speaks the truth. Stop whining about the talos, it doesn't need nerfed, the **** ships need buffed fool. HACS in general could use a little love and I'm sure they will get some in one of the next rounds of that tiericide stuffs.
where did i write talos needs nerf? |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
936
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 15:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
I deleted some trolling from this thread. Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
468
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Posted - 2012.12.13 15:48:00 -
[68] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
What are you talking about man? A few comments: - The Vagabond has dramatically superior mobility.
Yes.
- The Vagabond has a dramatically superior tank.
Dramatically, maybe not, but significantly, ok.
- The Vagabond has a smaller sig radius.
Yes.
- The Vagabond has better range.
Not really.
- The Vagabond tracks almost 6.5x better than the Talos (even with dual LSE and shield rigs!)
Okay, I suppose, I didn't check the tracking stats all that much.
- The Vagabond has similar kiting DPS.
No.
I usually agree with you Liang, but some things in this are just plainly wrong.
What's range ? What does "The Vagabond has better range" means ? To me, it should mean "It can deal a better DPS than the Talos at a range of 30/40kms.
That's just wrong. If I recall correctly, a Talos with Null loaded has an optimal of 16km and a falloff of 29km.
A Vagabond with Barrage loaded has an optimal of 3.5km and a falloff of 41km
Talos = 16 + 29 = 45
Vagabond = 3.5 + 41 = 44.5
Considering the Talos has 891 DPS and the Vagabond has 347 DPS in their classic respective fits (2xTEs, 2xDamagemods), a Talos has more DPS and/or range than a Vagabond.
Again, I'm talking about shooting a stationary target here. Sure, maybe a Vagabond will perform better against a small, very mobile target (And again, depends if the small and very mobile target is MWDing towards the Talos, in which case the Talos will just instapop it). But you can't say a Vagabond has a similar kiting DPS.
Either add "Against a frigate that isn't hitting Approach with its MWD on", or just admit that a 891 DPS Talos will deal significantly more DPS than a Vagabond at equal ranges.
Oh and I just checked tracking stats. 220mm Vagabonds have a tracking of 0.1349. Neutron Taloses with Null have a tracking of 0.0794. I'm not a math specialist, but that's not really 6.5 times better, is it ? |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:15:00 -
[69] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Oh and I just checked tracking stats. 220mm Vagabonds have a tracking of 0.1349. Neutron Taloses with Null have a tracking of 0.0794. I'm not a math specialist, but that's not really 6.5 times better, is it ?
You should not forget signature radius of guns. Large guns have 400 m while medium ones have 125 m signature radius resolution. This means that medium guns track around 3 times better than large guns even if their raw tracking numbers are equal. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2370
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 18:29:00 -
[70] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
What are you talking about man? A few comments: - The Vagabond has dramatically superior mobility.
Yes.
- The Vagabond has a dramatically superior tank.
Dramatically, maybe not, but significantly, ok.
- The Vagabond has a smaller sig radius.
Yes.
- The Vagabond has better range.
Not really.
- The Vagabond tracks almost 6.5x better than the Talos (even with dual LSE and shield rigs!)
Okay, I suppose, I didn't check the tracking stats all that much.
- The Vagabond has similar kiting DPS.
No.
I usually agree with you Liang, but some things in this are just plainly wrong. What's range ? What does "The Vagabond has better range" means ? To me, it should mean "It can deal a better DPS than the Talos at a range of 30/40kms. That's just wrong. If I recall correctly, a Talos with Null loaded has an optimal of 16km and a falloff of 29km. A Vagabond with Barrage loaded has an optimal of 3.5km and a falloff of 41km Talos = 16 + 29 = 45 Vagabond = 3.5 + 41 = 44.5 Considering the Talos has 891 DPS and the Vagabond has 347 DPS in their classic respective fits (2xTEs, 2xDamagemods), a Talos has more DPS and/or range than a Vagabond. Again, I'm talking about shooting a stationary target here. Sure, maybe a Vagabond will perform better against a small, very mobile target (And again, depends if the small and very mobile target is MWDing towards the Talos, in which case the Talos will just instapop it). But you can't say a Vagabond has a similar kiting DPS. Either add "Against a frigate that isn't hitting Approach with its MWD on", or just admit that a 891 DPS Talos will deal significantly more DPS than a Vagabond at equal ranges. Oh and I just checked tracking stats. 220mm Vagabonds have a tracking of 0.1349. Neutron Taloses with Null have a tracking of 0.0794. I'm not a math specialist, but that's not really 6.5 times better, is it ?
I think that this is a case of you not being familiar with what's going on. For instance, a standard Vagabond fit has 3x-4x the tank of a standard kiting Talos - even before we factor in resists that help with RR. I'd call that "dramatically superior", personally. Additionally, the Vagabond really does have similar kiting DPS. You cited a 900 DPS Talos with 16+29, but the truth is that you won't be applying even a fraction of that. Between tracking and the range falloff after your 15km optimal you're going to be dealing about the same damage at the edge of point range.
A kiting fight is never going to be against a stationary target - both you and the target will be moving. It doesn't take much before you're seeing noticeable damage reduction against even battlecruisers. This is a blatant appeal to authority, but go watch my videos - I've done quite a bit of this kitey Talos thing.
And as I've stated so many times: you guys are complaining about the wrong ship. The Talos is actually surprisingly weak at this role.
-Liang
Addendum: Yes, it's really 6.5x better. You forgot to factor in sig resolution. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 00:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:SMT008 wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
What are you talking about man? A few comments: - The Vagabond has dramatically superior mobility.
Yes.
- The Vagabond has a dramatically superior tank.
Dramatically, maybe not, but significantly, ok.
- The Vagabond has a smaller sig radius.
Yes.
- The Vagabond has better range.
Not really.
- The Vagabond tracks almost 6.5x better than the Talos (even with dual LSE and shield rigs!)
Okay, I suppose, I didn't check the tracking stats all that much.
- The Vagabond has similar kiting DPS.
No.
I usually agree with you Liang, but some things in this are just plainly wrong. What's range ? What does "The Vagabond has better range" means ? To me, it should mean "It can deal a better DPS than the Talos at a range of 30/40kms. That's just wrong. If I recall correctly, a Talos with Null loaded has an optimal of 16km and a falloff of 29km. A Vagabond with Barrage loaded has an optimal of 3.5km and a falloff of 41km Talos = 16 + 29 = 45 Vagabond = 3.5 + 41 = 44.5 Considering the Talos has 891 DPS and the Vagabond has 347 DPS in their classic respective fits (2xTEs, 2xDamagemods), a Talos has more DPS and/or range than a Vagabond. Again, I'm talking about shooting a stationary target here. Sure, maybe a Vagabond will perform better against a small, very mobile target (And again, depends if the small and very mobile target is MWDing towards the Talos, in which case the Talos will just instapop it). But you can't say a Vagabond has a similar kiting DPS. Either add "Against a frigate that isn't hitting Approach with its MWD on", or just admit that a 891 DPS Talos will deal significantly more DPS than a Vagabond at equal ranges. Oh and I just checked tracking stats. 220mm Vagabonds have a tracking of 0.1349. Neutron Taloses with Null have a tracking of 0.0794. I'm not a math specialist, but that's not really 6.5 times better, is it ? I think that this is a case of you not being familiar with what's going on. For instance, a standard Vagabond fit has 3x-4x the tank of a standard kiting Talos - even before we factor in resists that help with RR. I'd call that "dramatically superior", personally. Additionally, the Vagabond really does have similar kiting DPS. You cited a 900 DPS Talos with 16+29, but the truth is that you won't be applying even a fraction of that. Between tracking and the range falloff after your 15km optimal you're going to be dealing about the same damage at the edge of point range. A kiting fight is never going to be against a stationary target - both you and the target will be moving. It doesn't take much before you're seeing noticeable damage reduction against even battlecruisers. This is a blatant appeal to authority, but go watch my videos - I've done quite a bit of this kitey Talos thing. And as I've stated so many times: you guys are complaining about the wrong ship. The Talos is actually surprisingly weak at this role. -Liang Addendum: Yes, it's really 6.5x better. You forgot to factor in sig resolution.
Talos has 26k ehp 8which is more than most vagas), show me a kiting vaga that has 3-4 times the tank. And vs pretty much everything but frigates/dessies tracking does not matter, a vagabond moving with full speed at a 90% angle (so basically one of the smallest and fastest cruisers moving at the highest possible transversal) still takes over 600 damage from the talos at 20km. The talos has better range as it does more dps at longer ranges.
The only thing the vaga has going for it is pure speed which is pretty useless! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2371
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 00:52:00 -
[72] - Quote
Please post your 26k EHP kiting Talos fit that's worth a ****.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Noisrevbus
314
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 01:23:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ugh, pyramid qoutes... here we go .
Quote: Saying that the Talos is in the same league as the Cynabal with a straight face. Either you're getting old and senile or you're massively trolling. It's really that simple.
It implied the Cynabal and Vagabond. Not the Talos. I thought that was obvious.
Quote: So what I got out of this is that when you ignore all the inconvenient mechanics the "raw deeps" number looks pretty attractive. The simple fact of the matter is that the Talos isn't even the ship you want to be complaining about here. There are lots of ships that project damage better than the Talos if you want to start just discounting mechanics.
It was a fairly simple example. Angular and radial can't exist without transversal (ie., a disparity in speed or distance). Talos are so quick (~3km/s) that even Interceptors (~6km/s) will drop below the Talos' speed with a single web applied. Then the Interceptor pilot will need to disengage his approach in order to reestablish piloted accuracy modifiers (other options, such as cutting your mwd or switching on ab will have similar effects...) it will impose tracking modifiers, but the Interceptor will also cease to ... intercept.
Next, consider how tracking is chance-based, not reduction-based (even though glances exist), and how that makes incomming damage much more spiky than when dealing with missiles.
The same apply from the Talos also apply to the Vaga.
Similar to a Frigate the Vaga rely on relatives in it's defense, namely: sig-speed-resist, all of it mitigation.
With EHP-values in the 40's when buffered it's not a very strong conventionally tanked ship. Even with it's MWD off it's sig hoover around the resolution of BS-turrets. Simply put, that translates very poorly to an environment with LR tackle and projected damage. It may be functional in solo-pair play, but as soon as effects start stacking up a bit it's target pool will decrease dramaticly, and it will find itself in the target pool of many other popular ships.
While this is more pronounced when you come across a medium-sized gang, it's still fairly common among competent (and well composed) smaller gangs as well. The type of gangs that would use Talos with Rapiers and Scimis.
Most importantly: it becomes an issue when you choose to take risks and engage, because you engage within a killzone while depending on your relatives that can instantly be taken away, while your opponents have such extreme features that when they connect, they really do connect.
These are all the reasons why the Vagas role more and more have been overtaken by other ships; from other HACs with better conventional tanks, more burst, better reach or more utility; to BC, Tech III and even Frigates. It's why SHAC came about and why AHAC came to be, why hybrids of AHAC and NHAC (such as blaster rush concepts) popularized for a short while, why we 100mn our Tech III (and many other ships), why we DP so many ships and why Dramiels and AF in their respective times provided appealing options. It's why some people even DP or AB their Vagas today (though i don't quite see the point in that myself).
40k ehp on a 400-1000m sig is not a good place to be in an environment where a cycle of web can remove any speed-relative across 60km without any notable bonus stacking, and there are so many weapons in the game with a 60km projection that have such "raw deeps" or alpha that even attempting to snag a few Frigates before it's time to go does not appeal very much in your 250m ship; nevermind making a blitz run for those hostile Recons that take away your relatives from a distance much further than your AC's reach.
It's interesting pairing all of this with the ship balancing going on, because the decline of the Vaga speaks volumes about EVE overall. It's the decline of redundancy around speed, sig and resists. It's obvious that HP-pools and affordability are on the upswing (so is cloaking and utilizing extremes of speed, sig or resist in the few places it still exist), and introducing changes to speed and sig as it's being done will only have limited impact on the game.
Quote: "The Vaga's not very good at disengagement anymore". O.o What the hell are you smoking m8?
The environment have shifted to the point where LR secondary tackle is norm. The environment have also shifted to the point where painters are not unheard of. The environment have also shifted to the point where fitting tracking enhancers to utility lows is norm. The list goes on... |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 03:34:00 -
[74] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Please post your 26k EHP kiting Talos fit that's worth a ****.
-Liang
[Talos, SHield Gank] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
Hobgoblin II x5
Pretty standard fit! |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Nyan Cat Pirates Nyanpire
242
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 03:39:00 -
[75] - Quote
I remember when liang wasn't a complete and utter douche. |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
270
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 04:37:00 -
[76] - Quote
I agree ... what is a non-minmatar ship doing on the top of the "performance" ladder !
Its outrageous afterall that a battlecruiser dedicated on the sole purpose of wielding battleship weapons could overdps and outrange a cruiser ! |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
160
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 04:47:00 -
[77] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Please post your 26k EHP kiting Talos fit that's worth a ****.
-Liang [Talos, NanoFacemelt] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Large Shield Extender II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Hobgoblin II x5
This is probably the most common talos fit I see (plenty of people drop the nano for another TE)
Noisrevbus wrote: Talos are so quick (~3km/s)
uwot? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2372
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 05:18:00 -
[78] - Quote
I asked for a kiting Talos fit that wasn't garbage and this is what you came back with? This is what you think obsoletes the Vagabond? Really????
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2372
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 05:20:00 -
[79] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:I remember when liang wasn't a complete and utter douche.
I don't.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:21:00 -
[80] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I asked for a kiting Talos fit that wasn't garbage and this is what you came back with? This is what you think obsoletes the Vagabond? Really????
-Liang
If you now claim that 100mn taloi are the best way to fit that ship you are way worse at this game than i thought! |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2372
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 05:26:00 -
[81] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I asked for a kiting Talos fit that wasn't garbage and this is what you came back with? This is what you think obsoletes the Vagabond? Really????
-Liang If you now claim that 100mn taloi are the best way to fit that ship you are way worse at this game than i thought!
The posted fit is neither nano nor kiting. It has no webs and no real frigate defense to speak of. I find it funny that people who claim the Talos works against frigates always cite my videos and then disregard everything I say about how to make the ship and fit work.
This ship and fit in no way obsoletes the Vagabond and is outright suboptimal
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I asked for a kiting Talos fit that wasn't garbage and this is what you came back with? This is what you think obsoletes the Vagabond? Really????
-Liang If you now claim that 100mn taloi are the best way to fit that ship you are way worse at this game than i thought! The posted fit is neither nano nor kiting. It has no webs and no real frigate defense to speak of. I find it funny that people who claim the Talos works against frigates always cite my videos and then disregard everything I say about how to make the ship and fit work. This ship and fit in no way obsoletes the Vagabond and is outright suboptimal -Liang
And it needs neither, as i already posted in a 1vmany situation you can use links/snakes to make up for the speed disadvatge and in smalls cale fleets you have your fleet m8s ready to take the ship off your back!
The vaga has no web either and a neut really isnt much of a anti frig measure (due to nos).
Also i have never seen a single one of your videos nor have i ever cited one of them |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2372
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 05:39:00 -
[83] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote: And it needs neither, as i already posted in a 1vmany situation you can use links/snakes to make up for the speed disadvatge and in smalls cale fleets you have your fleet m8s ready to take the ship off your back!
The vaga has no web either and a neut really isnt much of a anti frig measure (due to nos).
Also i have never seen a single one of your videos nor have i ever cited one of them
So your argument is that in a "one" v many situation when you have snakes and links that you magically don't need a web or other frigate defense. And somehow -- magically -- those neutron blasters have the tracking to hit anything. Man, you got any other whoppers to tell us? The ship fit posted is too slow to be a kiting ship and is focused purely on EFT DPS instead of actually applying it.
Really, the fit's just bad.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
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Posted - 2012.12.14 06:28:00 -
[84] - Quote
God how many times do you need to hear it?
TRACKING DOES NOT MATTER WITH KITING SHIPS! (at least not with ships such as an ac nado or a blaster talos as long as you dont get caught)). It also is fast enough, you can just heat in one directing and any frigates needs to burn in almost a straight line towards you to catch you, resulting in you tracking them fine. (also not all gangs have frigates with them)
Also you compeltly neglect that besides killing frigates the talos is just straight up better and that in gangs frigates are very easily dealt with!
Frig defense simply doesnt matter. The vaga does one thing better and thats killing frigates (and the cyna is a way better 100mn ship) yet the talos is a ok frig killer aswell.
(also 1600m/s is fast enough, ac canes are way slower as are nanodrakes and other kiting ships) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2374
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Posted - 2012.12.14 06:30:00 -
[85] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:God how many times do you need to hear it? TRACKING DOES NOT MATTER WITH KITING SHIPS!
It is at this point that we can completely write you off as a total baddie. Literally nothing you can say will ever redeem you from the terribad player garbage that just came out of your mouth.
Quote:also 1600m/s is fast enough
No, it really really isn't. But I can see why you would think the Vaga is useless if you think something so dumb.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
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Posted - 2012.12.14 06:58:00 -
[86] - Quote
No we are talking shield battlecruiser niveau, or shield zealot/deimos/ONI or arty thrasher niveau! If you think that you need a base mwd speed of over 1500 you plainly suck at kiting!
Tbh i dont know what you think is a good talos fit but lets look at one of yours:
http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13071699
Compared to a "normal" talos you lose range/dps/ehp to gain a web and a 100mn ab, meaning you have better anti friagte abilitys but will still loose to every competent drake/cane/harbi (and most cruisers aswell)!
Also it tracking simply doesnt matter you do almost full dps vs all thats bigger than 200m (i.e pretty much everything but some frigates).
But obviously you either are a pretty good troll or you simply suck at this game.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2374
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Posted - 2012.12.14 08:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
One of the best things about that fit is that EFT warriors like you will never understand what makes it so great. The thing about it is that the 100mn AB is fantastic at mitigating damage from larger sources than frigates. In a lot of ways, a mitigation tank works much better than an actual active tank - though combining the two can lead to some hilarious results. Even the web isn't just there for frigates - though I admit it works marvelously for them.
Furthermore, the strong focus on tracking is important because it lets me actually deal my DPS - and to a larger selection of targets - instead of imagine I'm dealing my DPS because the number in EFT looks big and round. Your assertion that you're dealing "almost full DPS" to anything bigger than 200m is simply bunk.
Don't get me wrong - there'll be times that you can effectively use the Talos fit you have there, but most of the time you'll be better off in something else. Especially once you start talking about 1600m/s being "fast enough" for kiting gangs. Hell, you can do that with battleships.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
34
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Posted - 2012.12.14 09:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Well, to be fair that's with uber skirmish links, right? Sorry for the dumb question, I often EFT warrior because I enjoy theorycrafting.
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
946
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Posted - 2012.12.14 09:25:00 -
[89] - Quote
I have removed a personal attack from this thread. Don't make me come back in here again. Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2012.12.14 10:19:00 -
[90] - Quote
Ok, since Retribution, the Talos is no longer more mobile than comparable attack cruisers, and this discussion is pretty much moot. Yes, some attack cruisers are still slower than their racial Tier 3, but the mobilest Tr3s are now easily outmaneuvered by their racial attack cruisers. And getting caught by a Thorax when you zoom around in your Talos can really only end one way.
Balance achieved? Yes.
I also don't see tier 3s in any way overpowered, artillery alpha is perhaps a stupid mechanic but it's not just limited to Nadoblob camps.
Tier 3s are different, they are a new ship class with their own strengths and weaknesses, and many people enjoy flying them- not a bad thing.
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