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Passive shield tank works well with invulnerability fields

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Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:19:00 - [1] I donÆt know why I didnÆt think of this before. I found out while testing the new shield extenders that invulnerability fields work perfectly with passive shield tanks at lest the tanks based on PDS modules not shield relays. Without the massive cap drain from a shield booster there isnÆt much to spend the cap on and it seems a shame to waste cap. More testing is needed but so far 2 invulnerability field module leave my cap steady at 45% and I still need to get the right balance of PDS and shield relay modules. But so far on the test server with 2 fields I get (all the below settings are with a Dominix battleship) EM 38.35% Explosive 75.34% Kinetic 63.01% Thermal 50.68% 18098 shield hitpoints and 44.3 regen. cap holds EM 48% Explosive 79% Kinetic 68% Thermal 58% 14220 shield hitpoints and 34.8 regencap cap holds EM 47 (passive module didnÆt have a active on me so should be a little higher) Explosive 70% Kinetic 55% Thermal 64% 12284 shield hitpoints and 45 regen. cap died after 5 mins . I need to test on the main server with my higher cap skill. I think I can get this one working without running out of cap. For comparison my old setup is with passive hardeners T2. EM 38 % Explosive 60% Kinetic 40% Thermal 50% 12862 shield hitpoints and 80.79 regen. The question is are the extra shield resistanceÆs and extra shield hitpoints worth the loss in shield regen. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Sadist	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:25:00 - [2] So what good is actual passive tank setup? Find a noob in a corp and tell him: shoot the hell out of me, and then make fun of him since he cant break your passive tank? _______________________________________________
Rodney Munch	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:27:00 - [3] .. and the point of this is?
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Rodney Munch .. and the point of this is? If I can passive tank my Tempest with only using 3 midslots Im in Wanna fly with me?
Rodney Munch	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:29:00 - [5] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Rodney Munch .. and the point of this is? If I can passive tank my Tempest with only using 3 midslots Im in Try passive tanking in pvp and see how well you do.
Peri Stark	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:43:00 - [6] I think a passive tank is great. I have less then 2mil SP, no lvl5 skills and no t2 mods. In my Ferox with a passive shield tank i can run a 4/10 Gurista complex without stopping until its done. This may not be a big deal to some players but it is to me. ================================================ Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:50:00 - [7] That is because the Gurista 4/10 is easier than a lvl 2 mission. Try the angel 2/10, drone 3/10 or Serpentis 4/10 and see how good passive shield tanking is. Regardless of the numbers on the shield tank, your damage will be gimped, you cap will be gimped, you can't tackle, you can't do EW and you can't escape when you have to. So what can you do? Sit in combat and watch the pretty Apocs and Tempests shred you just as quick as they shred the active tank with the XL c5? ------------------------------------------------------- "Do you really think that's air you're breathing?"
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:54:00 - [8] ôSo what good is actual passive tank setup?ö It has its good and bad sides. Its something different to try, defence is on 24/7 perfect for lazy people or the forgetful type due to never having to turn modules on and off. If you run out of cap your defence stays on max or near max so no worried about Nos killing you cap. Passive tanks also tend to have loads of hitpoints anywhere from 12 to 25k so even if the regen fails to keep up with damage you still have a decent amout of time to warp out or stay in fight. Down sides are some modules are still only T1 versions, some methods of passive tanking give a bad cap recharge, some ships cannot be passive tanked. ôTry passive tanking in pvp and see how well you do.ö I am doing pretty well the the PvP tournaments I have entered. So far the rules have been no T2 cruisers and the biggest ship permitted are cruisers so mostly Cruiser V Cruiser battles or sometimes elite frigate V Cruiser. With 60 hp/s regen and shield hardeners my passive tank stands up to the regen of the active tanks only I donÆt run out of cap and I found a lot of other cruisers donÆt have the firepower to take down my shields as they relay on you running out of cap and your booster failing over time. Cap draining based ships have also failed to kill me. Sniper ships with Iron ammo also fail I can just sit there all match watching them pound me and never dinting my shields. The biggest treats are the high skill players with T2 weapons and full damage mods layouts. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
xenorx	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:55:00 - [9] Originally by: Rodney Munch Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Rodney Munch .. and the point of this is? If I can passive tank my Tempest with only using 3 midslots Im in Try passive tanking in pvp and see how well you do. While I agree with you Rodney that a passive tank is not a good idea for PvP action in most cases. It is a great alternative for Mission runners and general NPC hunting. If they ever come out with the rest of the T2 mods that effect shield recharge then passive tanking might become a realistic alternitive in PvP.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:59:00 - [10] My God! What with the hostility on this thread?! The point is - that Pottsey is constantly finding uses for 'useless' modules. Not all the setups will have the 'omgwtfbbqwhatdiduhaveforbreakfast' PvP ability, but many people choose to play the game in their own way. And due to Pottsey's constant lack of hostility back to all of the hostile ppl, it seem like she having more FUN then most! (see: THE POINT)... Weirda LOVE PvP AND PvE - and Pottsey's ways don't suit Weirda's playstyle (at all really), but it doesn't threaten Weirda to have people doing 'their own thing' either (as long as they don't beat me... j/k) Anyhow - GG Pottsey... shame to hostiles... -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.18 21:05:00 - [11] ôyour damage will be gimped, you cap will be gimped, you can't tackle, you can't do EW and you can't escape when you have to. So what can you do? Sit in combat and watch the pretty Apocs and Tempests shred you just as quick as they shred the active tank with the XL c5?ö Why are you weapons and cap gimped? The bonus to powergrid means you can fit good weapons and the bonus to total reactor cap and cap recharge is well a bonus not a penalty. As for EW get a friend to do it, passive tanks are better in groups anyway due to Escort Tactics. As for Apocs and Tempests shredding a passive tank quickly I would like to see a Tempest kill as ship with anything from 15 to 25k hitpoints and shield hardeners quickly. Even without regen that takes time. Though I do tend to agree passive tanks tend to be good for PvE and bad for solo PvP though it works for group PvP sometimes. All I am trying to do is come up with new play styles that are fun. DonÆt like my methods then improve on them or donÆt use them. As for me I am going have fun improving my setups as much as I can. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.18 21:08:00 - [12] I think you're forgetting one thing. In PvP, tanking is useless. Tanking is nice for 1v1s, but sadly, you dont get 1v1s without a challenge. IE, i know if i bring my Apoc alone into 0.0, ill die, so i make sure to bring 5 mates in battleships aswell. My enemies know the same thing, they make sure to bring 5 aswell. And guess what happens when 5 Tempests and Apocs shoot at you. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Artharas	Posted - 2005.05.18 21:12:00 - [13] Edited by: Artharas on 18/05/2005 21:14:44 First of all... PvP is not all 50vs50 where you are toasted whatever setup you have fitted when enemy commander decides you are next to die. It can accually be 1vs1. I have never really bothered with passive tanking but with 60 hp/s on a cruiser, that is imho pretty decent to run endlessly(depends on if there is resistance also). This is also an alternitive to the normal setups which all people seem to fit these days(gankageddons anyone?). This is prob also uber nice is PvE as atleast in numbers this tank seems to hold pretty nicely with on average like 410 hp/s(with decent all-around resistances). And ofcourse this must be just nice for the lazy people(like myself) :) PS. Wierda why do you talk about yourself in 3rd person? Edit: Though ofc you could have a prob with holding the enemy down unless you have a tackler with you... ------------------------- These are my views and don't necessarily represent my corp nor my alliance.
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.05.18 21:43:00 - [14] Edited by: Dust Puppy on 18/05/2005 21:43:56 Originally by: Artharas PS. Wierda why do you talk about yourself in 3rd person? That's obvious Weirda is weird Edit: And as always nice going Pottsey __________ Capacitor research
sableye	Posted - 2005.05.18 23:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Rodney Munch Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Rodney Munch .. and the point of this is? If I can passive tank my Tempest with only using 3 midslots Im in Try passive tanking in pvp and see how well you do. in soem situations it would actually work I had a fight with a domi and a balckbird in my raven the domi nossed me to deatha dn started usingd rones to kill me a passive tank could have set there all day against that probably, or at least long enough for my fofs to kill all there drones.
Serret	Posted - 2005.05.19 00:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Pottsey I would like to see a Tempest kill as ship with anything from 15 to 25k hitpoints and shield hardeners quickly. Even without regen that takes time. You'd be shocked at how quickly one minute passes during hardcore PvP when you're receiving upwards of 400 damage per second despite your hardeners, and then your shields fail... However, it does seem to me that your earlier, fully-passive setups were better than a 'half-active' setup, if only because they fulfull the core concept behind a passive tank (no cap draw, immune to energy drainers, zero maintenance). As for resistance vs. recharge rate? Well, it clearly depends upon how much damage you're receiving. Originally by: Elve Sorrow In PvP, tanking is useless. Tanking is nice for 1v1s, but sadly, you dont get 1v1s without a challenge. You have much to learn, grasshopper...
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.05.19 00:19:00 - [17] I support passive tanking [tho i dont use it as its nto good enough for me] and i have good news for those pro passive tankers like me ccp plan to upgrade passive modules and add rthe tech2 equivelents to make them a worthwhile alternative in pvp apparently no idea when tho maybee later this year i hope.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.05.19 00:36:00 - [18] I do like the idea of passive tanking but this isn't really passive tanking. The invulnerability fields use up so much capacitor that you would be better served pushing that capacitor into an active setup. Unless you can show otherwise, that the passive setup with invulnerability fields repairs better than an active setup with the same cap usage, I don't see much use in this.
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.05.19 01:12:00 - [19] Edited by: Tobiaz on 19/05/2005 01:17:13 Originally by: Elve Sorrow I think you're forgetting one thing. In PvP, tanking is useless. Tanking is nice for 1v1s, but sadly, you dont get 1v1s without a challenge. IE, i know if i bring my Apoc alone into 0.0, ill die, so i make sure to bring 5 mates in battleships aswell. My enemies know the same thing, they make sure to bring 5 aswell. And guess what happens when 5 Tempests and Apocs shoot at you. I doubt you that outcome would change much if you'd use an active tank against them instead. I figure a passive tank will mean you have plenty of cap to burn for things like MWDs and the fact your tank isn't vulnerable to NOS is quite a powerful move. Afterall, aren't most HACs and Ass frigs using passive hardeners? Also while 1vs1 might be rare, there is fighting in empire as well, where it often quite different from 0.0 battles. A passive tank might be quite a well fit there.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.19 01:27:00 - [20] Passive Tanking an FI Tempest is fun. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Glarion Garnier	Posted - 2005.05.19 07:10:00 - [21] Pottsey This make's me think a Passive tanked Domi with One shield Hardener might be good at Angel BS Hunting .. should I go for powerdiag 2's or totally passive modules .. I Respect your ability to think wide.
Na'Axin	Posted - 2005.05.19 07:19:00 - [22] IMO the use of invulnerability fields is quite contradicting the use of a passive tank... I mean, isn't the point of a passive tank that you can work with low cap (meaning, while being nos'ed)? (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
VortiK	Posted - 2005.05.19 07:19:00 - [23] Personnaly, I find Pottsey' posts very interesting. What is a life, devoid of strife ? Glorious Furture
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.05.19 07:43:00 - [24] I enjoy any math that I find difficult to understand But following Pottsey's advice on shield tanking, meant I had an uber-tanked Ferox for a while. ex P-TMC If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.19 08:02:00 - [25] nah, but Pottsey, what could I do for tanking in a Tempest without using more then 3 midslots? I need all of my lowslots for damage mods and an RCU my other midslots are taken for sensor booster and tracking CPU at I run XL Clarity Shieldbooster and maximal and EW hardener, and just make the enemy die with my 5000 Damage volleys Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.19 08:03:00 - [26] Originally by: sableye Originally by: Rodney Munch Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Rodney Munch .. and the point of this is? If I can passive tank my Tempest with only using 3 midslots Im in Try passive tanking in pvp and see how well you do. in soem situations it would actually work I had a fight with a domi and a balckbird in my raven the domi nossed me to deatha dn started usingd rones to kill me a passive tank could have set there all day against that probably, or at least long enough for my fofs to kill all there drones. yeah, but still an real setuped BS would have pwned your ass, especially a gankageddon with tech2 pulse lasers without high resistances your doomed Wanna fly with me?
xenorx	Posted - 2005.05.19 15:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: sableye Originally by: Rodney Munch Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Rodney Munch .. and the point of this is? If I can passive tank my Tempest with only using 3 midslots Im in Try passive tanking in pvp and see how well you do. in soem situations it would actually work I had a fight with a domi and a balckbird in my raven the domi nossed me to deatha dn started usingd rones to kill me a passive tank could have set there all day against that probably, or at least long enough for my fofs to kill all there drones. yeah, but still an real setuped BS would have pwned your ass, especially a gankageddon with tech2 pulse lasers without high resistances your doomed This is true. However, it would also toast just about everything else passive or active. It just would not matter. Personally, I cant wait for CCP to finally release the rest of the T2 mods for passive tanking. I have a set up worked out for my Cerberus that will recharge more shields per second than a Large T2 SB with an amp. Unfortunatly it is just a paper fitting atm because we are still waiting for all the mods to come out.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.19 18:05:00 - [28] Edited by: Pottsey on 19/05/2005 18:06:59 ôI mean, isn't the point of a passive tank that you can work with low cap (meaning, while being nos'ed)?ö ThatÆs one of the reasonÆs to passive tank but most passive tanks are doing PvE so you donÆt have to worry about being NosÆed. In PvE you may as well use the cap up with active modules. ônah, but Pottsey, what could I do for tanking in a Tempest without using more then 3 midslots?ö Not a lot really, large shield extenders but in that case an active tank might be better. I take it you end up killing your opponents fast? With the new shield extenders on the test server 3 mid slots mean 7200 hitpoints extra. It takes an extra large T2 shield booster 1 minuet to heal 7200 hitpoints. So if someone deals 7000 hitpoints in under a minuet or you run out of cap in under a minute then the active tank dies while the passive tank lives due to the shear amount of hitpoints not even counting regen. ôshould I go for powerdiag 2's or totally passive modules ..ö For short high damage battles go for powerdiag 2's as you relay on hitpoints volume over regen. For longer dawn out battles go for as many shield relays as you can with 2 or 3 powerdiag 2's so you donÆt run out of cap. A mix of modules gives more regen but less total hitpoints. ôyeah, but still an real setuped BS would have pwned your ass, especially a gankageddon with tech2 pulse lasersö Perhaps not if you have enough hitpoints regen shouldnt matter. Say two ships are doing 1000 DPS one is an active tank with 4.5k shields and a 150 hp/s from the booster. The other is a passive tank with 18k or even 25k shields. Then after 10 seconds both ships had taken 10,000 hitpoints killing the active tank and leaving the passive alive. So although the passive take regen is rubbish at 40 ish the match is over before those 18k shields die. Based on the test server its more like 12 to 18k on the live server. I am not a big PvP so if my theory is wrong please show me how. I never tested the above out but it seems to me a passive tank can live longer then an active tank against gank setups with high damage mods and the passive tank can take the same damage mods. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.19 18:13:00 - [29] I think the true test of a passive regen tank would be tanking two sentries solo for an hour. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.19 19:16:00 - [30] I might try that. What damage type do they do and what DPS roughly? Are the empire guns the same as deep space? Which sector do you want me to test in if empire is not the same as deep space? _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.19 19:24:00 - [31] Afaik the range of them and the number of them is the only variation. But any 0.4 system would do, just get a non corp teammate on test to drop a can and then just shoot it and watch the fireworks. in hi sec you tend to find 4-8 sentries along with the npc security, but in 0.4, 2 is the most you get. They dont shoot at just one target anymore, so you would have to be the only ship they want to shoot at. I figure the passive tank (unhardened) could go about 10 mins before armor starts feeling the passthrough at 25% shield. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.19 20:06:00 - [32] yeah this new shield extenders could really help but still the problem atm with all kind of tanking is that skilled pilots will do much more damage then most tanks can keep up with, and even 2x acco repairs and 3x hardeners only buy you some some seconds against multiple enemies Wanna fly with me?
Dewar Scrabulous	Posted - 2005.05.19 20:30:00 - [33] Originally by: Serret As for resistance vs. recharge rate? Well, it clearly depends upon how much damage you're receiving. I made an excell sheet that compared armor resistance versus armor HPs for my Retribution. I might be able to modify it for shields, but I'm not very familiar with them. -Dewar ---
Ice Breaker	Posted - 2005.05.19 21:00:00 - [34] Edited by: Ice Breaker on 20/05/2005 02:58:39 Quote: I never tested the above out but it seems to me a passive tank can live longer then an active tank against gank setups with high damage mods and the passive tank can take the same damage mods. The theory would be that the winner in a fast 1 vs 1 is the one that deal more damage than the other can take. "Fast" here means that there is no significant amount of repaired/boosted/regenerated hp during the fight. The "theory" here is obvious, however you can say it in another way... and the other way might sound less obvious. The fight ends at time t1, where t1=(the total hp of the loser)/the dps of the winner. you can factor hardening and damage types, but the logic doesn't change. As both setup will be such as to counter the other by giving the less hardened damage while hardening the damage taken, it doesn't really make sence to try to factor different hardening setups in such a comparison. IMO, the only meaningfull way is to compute total hp as (lesser resist)total hp of shield + (lesser resist)total hp of armor + total hp of hull, granted that you can change the "lesser resist" with hardeners. The time t2 would be the other hp/dps ratio, and time t2 > time t1. Twisting the numbers, (total hp of winner * dps of winner) > (total hp of loser * dps of loser). You can define a variable which will tell you which ship wins such a fight: it's total hp * dps. The winner in such a fight is the one with the highest product. Somebody with more knowledge of the numbers (dps and total hp) could compute the products for a comparison of ships. I'll have a go at it with the numbers in this thread. 1. shield of dominix with extenders and 2 shield hardeners (em & therm): 28k hitpoints (similar to "hull hitpoints") 2. dps of dominix: unknown 3. total hp of gankageddon: 10k hitpoints (similar to "hull hitpoints") 4. dps of gankageddon: 1k dps The gankgeddon has a product of 10k hitpoints * 1k dps = 10m The dominix should do around 10m/28k = 360 dps to win the fight. Heavy drones alone already do 1/3 of that. I've no idea about what could the guns do as i don't fly a dominix, but probably enough because of the available low slots. [wrong number, edited] The fight would last around 30 seconds [wrong number, edited] I hope that i got it right... Of course, such a fight would not occur but it should give a theoretical picture of it. Ice
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.05.19 21:10:00 - [35] Quote: Why are you weapons and cap gimped? The bonus to powergrid means you can fit good weapons and the bonus to total reactor cap and cap recharge is well a bonus not a penalty. As for EW get a friend to do it, passive tanks are better in groups anyway due to Escort Tactics. As for Apocs and Tempests shredding a passive tank quickly I would like to see a Tempest kill as ship with anything from 15 to 25k hitpoints and shield hardeners quickly. Even without regen that takes time. It gimps you ship for the following reasons: 1) It requires you to fit a load of powergrid and cpu heavy shield extenders, which could easily have been midslot modules that do have a use, such as 1 powergrid shieldhardners, ew modules, a webber, a scrambler or heck, even a sensor booster. 2) It gimps your damage output because of two reasons. The first is that you need to fit smaller weapons because of the power diagnostics (which could have been RCU II's) plus the fact that you're throwing grid and cpu away on shield extenders. The second is that you use your precious few lowslots for shield relays and power diags, which really should be damage mods, RCU II's and, well, maybe a diag or 2 for a shield tank. The first damage mod is 20% extra damage over time. That's a lot of damage. 3) It gimps your cap, because you're fitting cap crippling shield relays. If you fit all power diags, sure, it makes for a decent cap. From experience (and this is with energy sys ops 5, energy management 5 and controlled bursts 4) I can dry up the cap of a Dominix by JUST SHOOTING THE GUNS in under a minute. I'm highly sceptical on how this will do with shield relays and a few pdu's. Finally, I don't see the point. A Large Shieldbooster II with an amp gives 78 shield point per second plus whatever you generate passively on top of that. It is sustainable forever with good cap skills and a few diags, which by the way also improve the passive recharge. XL booster is of course way faster but only an Apoc can sustain that :-) In all your comparisons with passive tanking vs active tanking you always seem to forget the active tank ALSO has a pretty decent shield regeneration, due to the use of PDU's. I'm not afraid I can't break a 100 hp/sec tank. In fact, a dual large acco Apoc gets 120 HP/sec with repair systems trained to 4 and any good combat setup should be able to break that. Quote: First of all... PvP is not all 50vs50 where you are toasted whatever setup you have fitted when enemy commander decides you are next to die. Look at his corp before you try to tell him. He's Shinra. They only fight when outnumbering their enemies 20v1. Blob 4tw. ------------------------------------------------------- "Do you really think that's air you're breathing?"
Serret	Posted - 2005.05.19 23:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Pottsey Say two ships are doing 1000 DPS one is an active tank with 4.5k shields and a 150 hp/s from the booster. The other is a passive tank with 18k or even 25k shields. Then after 10 seconds both ships had taken 10,000 hitpoints killing the active tank and leaving the passive alive. So although the passive take regen is rubbish at 40 ish the match is over before those 18k shields die. Based on the test server its more like 12 to 18k on the live server. Just to point out, a passive tank with 18k shields is going to have midslots filled with shield extenders. Meanwhile, let's take the example of a full shieldtank, which will have 8k+ shields, ~70% resistances, and will generate a bit over 150 hp/s shieldboosting. Now, both the shields and the shield boosting will benefit from the resistances, so in effect, the active tank looks very healthy in comparison to the passive one. Finally, no fully tanked ship is going to be pumping out anywhere close to 1k dps -- and especially not a ship which has dedicated its midslots to extenders and lows to shield relays.
jamesw	Posted - 2005.05.20 00:22:00 - [37] For NPC, the passive setup sounds just great. Being able to sit there all day long without worrying about cap would be very nice. If I npc hunted I would even try it out!!. As to PVP, the passive tank does sound a little lacking. Not necessarily in the dps it can or cannot take, but in the slots it uses. If I remember correctly, your passive tanked Domi used all of its mid and low slots (12 in total) for tanking. That is an obscene number of slots used to get to 150 hp/s recharge. Now I am not saying that having 18k shields in pvp is a bad thing, but maybe rather than get an actualy passive tank happening, you may be worthwhile to just fit the extenders, and free up lowslots for something else. Lets say a small (2v2) fight lasts 120 seconds. They usually dont last longer than that. Domi Setup 1: has a ~4k shield and a 5 midslot tank - XL booster, 3 x hardeners, cap injector. (50% em, 67.5% thermal, ~70% Kin, 60% exp). Domi Setup 2: has Pottseys midslot layot from the original post (13k shield with same resistances as in original post). Both setups have very similar high and low slot layouts (I assume you can fit your passive midslots in around (2,500 grid, I dont know). For instance, instead of all that shield recharge crap, you put 7 damage mods in low You will find that the XL tanked Domi (at 400hp / 4 seconds) can generate around 12,000 hitpoints over the 120 seconds. With the cap injector, his cap will last enough to power the shield booster non stop. This gives him a total of 16,000 hitpoints for the fight, with good resistances, vs the 13,000 on Pottseys. Now the Shield extender Domi does not actually come out all that bad in that (small) fight, but lets change the goalposts a bit...... The fight is now a 5v5, and the same 2 Domi's are looked at. In a focus fire 5v5, if you get called target you will be toast in 20 seconds or less. XL Setup: 20 seconds = 2,000 shield (+4000 base = 6,000 total). Passive: 20 seconds = 13,000 shield. As you can see, a passive setup has its uses in PVP. In the example above, you get DOUBLE the time you otherwise had in that fight. IE, the odds turn in your favour, as in the time you take to die, or warp out, you have bought your group a LOT more time to bring 1 or 2 enemy BS down. Perhaps if people focus not on indefinite recharge but on the time it takes to have a fight, the true benefits will come out. The concepts above are NOTHING new, and are certainly not a Dominix only concept. Just remember that a good pvp ship does not have to be able to repair itself, just be able to take damage for long enough to do good damage itself. That is all. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.05.20 01:25:00 - [38] Pottsey, ignore the hostile posters here, you're doing somthing different and experimenting with original setups, somthing alot of the bad mouthers here have probably never done so keep up the great work. Anywho, im not sure if somone has already posted this above or already mentioned it (I'm too tired atm to read every post right now) but have you considered trying to run an EM and thermal hardner for your shields instead of 2 invulnerability fields? Shields naturally have decent kinetic and good explosive resitances but lower thermal and next to no em resistance. Using the 2 specific hardners will give you a more balanced resitance to your shields overall. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.20 08:01:00 - [39] Edited by: Pottsey on 20/05/2005 09:53:47 I thought this was clear but perhaps itÆs not. Passive tanks do not have to use every single slot up. Taking 1 or 2 slot away does not suddenly make the setup useless it only lowers the regen by 10ish per module you take away. Just because I use all my slots up does not mean you have to. You are free to fit EW, afterburners, more shield hardeners or what ever you like that fits your play style. So please can we stop saying but Passive tanks use up all there slots and cannot run EW or afterburners e.c.t "1) It requires you to fit a load of powergrid and cpu heavy shield extenders, which could easily have been midslot modules that do have a use, such as 1 powergrid shieldhardners, ew modules, a webber, a scrambler or heck, even a sensor booster." All my setups here apart from the one 25k setups require 3 large shield extenders which is 1056 powergrid. ThatÆs only 506 more then an extra large shield booster T2 module. CPU is not much more. All my setups apart from the 25k shield one have empty mid slots for EW and Webbers, shield hardeners e.c.t ôThe first is that you need to fit smaller weapons because of the power diagnosticsö I never thought about weapons as I relay on drones so off for some testing, good point you have there. After testing I found I could fit 5, neutron blasters weapons. So weapons fitting is not a problem and smaller weapons are not needed. That was with 7 low slots free () so I could fit in 1 CPU booster with 6 damage mods and then full all my weapon slots up with the best weapons. I had over 12k shields without the PDS modules and 18 with the PDS modules so itÆs a tough choice between damage mods and PDS. Perhaps 3 PDS and 3 damage mods would work well. Anyone have any idea whatÆs better for PvP and PvE extra hitpoints or damage output or a mix? (I could still fit 5 weapons with all 7 low slots fitted with PDS modules and not run out of CPU) ôthe power diagnostics (which could have been RCU II's)ö You donÆt need RCUÆs. I currently have 15829 powergrid. ThatÆs a 4017 bonus powergrid over using no modules more then enough to make up for the 1056 my shield extenders use and enough for weapons. This is when I use 7 PDS modules but you donÆt need them to fit weapons. ôwhich really should be damage mods,ö One of my setups had 7 damage mods T2 and 3 shield extenders which is the same amount of hitpoints as a extra large shield boost T2 heals in 1 minuet. So I think for sub 1 minuet battles that passive tanks should be able to hold its own as itÆs got a comparable setups with shield hardeners and damage mods. ô3) It gimps your cap, because you're fitting cap crippling shield relays.ö How many times do I have to explain without the massive drain from an extra large shield booster T2 you donÆt need a fast cap recharge even a large shield booster drains 40 cap/s. My cap holds and never runs out. All my setups unless noted never run out of cap even with weapons firing. Even my passive tank with 2 invulnerability field and some shield relays doesnÆt run out of cap. In fact the cap holds steady at 45% and on the test server I only have level 3 cap skills. The only time cap is a problem is if you use 7 shield power relays. You can fix that by swapping in 2 PDS modules and upping your reactor skills past level 3. ôA Large Shieldbooster II with an amp gives 78 shield point per second plus whatever you generate passively on top of that.ö My idea was based on the high hitpoints ship, mid regen and hardeners. At 78 hp/s an active tank would take 3.84 minuets to heal the same amount of hitpoints as the passive tank with 18k shields. ThatÆs not even taking into account what the passive tank healed. That 18K passive tank can have shield hardeners and 7 damage mods as well. Most battles are over in under 3.84 minuets when 7 damage mods are factored in. ôIn all your comparisons with passive tanking vs active tanking you always seem to forget the active tank ALSO has a pretty decent shield regeneration, due to the use of PDU's.ö PDUÆs are rubbish at shield regen a standard ship with 3 PDUÆs only gets under 10 hp/s with level 5 skills and shield implants. 5 PDUÆs gives you 12 hp/s with level 5 skills and shield implants (done on the test server so a little higher on the main server) I tend to compare to single modules not ship layouts. If you want to post full ship layouts I can edit them into my posts next to my setups for comparison for other people. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.20 09:07:00 - [40] One questions Pottsey, do you keep in mind that shield recharge probably works like cap recharge? having a peak at the middle and getting lower to both of the ends? if thats so you need to check maximal shield recharge and average shield recharge and things like this Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.20 09:09:00 - [41] ohh and please post some example setups with stats if you dont mind. you may have my setups too (well at least the "normal" ones) Wanna fly with me?
Muad 'dib	Posted - 2005.05.20 09:17:00 - [42] Edited by: Muad ''dib on 20/05/2005 09:18:40 Try this setup for a scorp: 4 large anzitropc shield exteneders (or tech II of course) em, heat and kinetic hardeners and a large shield booster II. with pdus in the lows. Has 15000 shield hp, 1400 recharge rate on the shields and can run the SBII forever. Now my skills are not setup for passive tanking, but i put the regen at about 85 hps with tanked reists... any good? would i be better off loosing the SBII and hardeners for 4 inv. fields? Muad 'dib -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- /\|\. '/\' The Wild West Made Me Quicker On The DRAW Than You
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.20 09:28:00 - [43] Another small comment from me: The only reason i see to use passive tanking over active tanking is you don't use cap. There's the thing with it's always active, but i generally run tanks which i can run all day anyway. Now, relying on anything that uses cap you aid in your defense would make it kind of...useless. It would make you vulnerable to any regular setup, such as nosferatus and neutralisers. So, focus on that no-cap thing. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.20 09:57:00 - [44] ôbut have you considered trying to run an EM and thermal hardner for your shields instead of 2 invulnerability fields?ö The reason I used invulnerability fields was I had over 40 cap/s that was going to waste. ThatÆs not a bad idea though with a slight change. 1 invulnerability field and 1 active hardener. Or perhaps 1 invulnerability field and 2 active hardeners. I will add that to my list of testing. Thanks for the idea. ôJust to point out, a passive tank with 18k shields is going to have midslots filled with shield extenders. 3 mid slots is all I use which isnÆt bad compared to an active tank with a shield booster, shield amp and cap recharger. ôOne questions Pottsey, do you keep in mind that shield recharge probably works like cap recharge? ôhaving a peak at the middle and getting lower to both of the ends?ö I am testing by letting 2 sent guns in a 0.4 sector shoot me then time how long I last. But itÆs taken a while as I have to wait for the sent guns to stop shooting before I can try new layouts. When I have done I will post everything with ship layouts. So far the high hitpoints ships are lasting longer then the high regen based passive tanked ships. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.20 16:46:00 - [45] Are the stacking issues with invulnerability fields fixed? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.20 19:31:00 - [46] All testing was done at 33km give or take a little from 2 sent guns in a 0.4 sector. I warped out and stop counting when my shields hit 10%. The gate guns where doing about 130 DPS after resistance. 1 in invulnerability shield, 1 EM hardener active, 3 shield relays, Ship lasted 2 min 10 sec, 14889 hitpoints and 54 hp/s 2 active hardeners, 7 relays, Ship lasted 2mins, 12250 hitpoints and 90 hp/s 1 invulnerability shield, 7 PDS, 2min 30 seconds, 20930 hitpoints and 60 hp/s 2 invulnerability shields, 7 PDS, 2mins 15sec 17238 hitpoints and 52 hp/s For pure fun I tried a shield recharge T2 and shield really setup with a very fast shield recharge but it only lasted 20 to 30 seconds. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.

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