-A nerf doesnGÇÖt mean taking away any activities, it simply means making them less profitable. If missions paid 1% less they would still be worth it, what if it was 10% or 15%? You can still mine if the roids yield 8% less ore per cycle. You can do everything you can do now, just for less profit.

Though it is a slightly different topic I think the main problem null faces is that alliances can't build a vertically integrated industrial base where money flows from the bottom to the top for other alliances to attack.

What I mean by this is you want people mining + ratting + manufacturing + trading in null, making everything they need (maybe importing 1-3% of the materials they need) and able to live independently of High Sec if they so choose.

There's a whole array of game mechanics that contribute to this, mostly it's mining in null, manufacturing and trading and ratting which need to be buffed and made the obvious thing to do if you live in null. When this is done making it harder to trade with highsec and nerfing highsec a bit would complete the changes.

In fact, you're exactly the kind of person that needs to be ganked repeatedly in high sec.

All the more reason to improve the facilities in 0.0 to support convenience play, so that people who's lives get busy aren't forced to abandon their friends and interests in null.

people who believe they have a right to perfect safety in eve need to be vigorously and violently disabused of that notion

One thing I would like to point out is in 12 pages there isn't one cogent, well written, argument about why highsec "cannot" be nerfed. I think it has to remain on the table as an option for CCP.

those have been proposed ad nauseum, they just all require certain broken features of highsec to be toned down because highsec's brokenness with industry is what breaks null industry

wrong

because everything in null has to be imported ease of transport drops away: you can either import a finished hull or you can import minerals and freighter them around like a madman

the idea mineral avalibility is higher in 0.0 is so absurd i don't even know how to deal with someone with that little grasp of the facts

in short, npc alt: unsuprisingly knows nothing about nullsec industry

nullsec requires huge quantities of materials to be imported and this cannot be avoided: even leaving aside the trit problem you must import non-native fuel and moon products (or their derivitives: t2 ships). fuel and moon minerals are racial and you cannot supply what you need, period

in addition to fuel and r8/r32 moon minerals which are regional and therefore 3/4ths will be absolutely unavalible, there is no reasonable source of lowend materials in 0.0

now granted, you're going to say something dumb like "but there are veldspar rocks hyuk hyuk" but nobody is going to do that because a)everything else in 0.0 pays better than mining veldspar and b)if you want to mine veldspar you can do it in near-perfect safety in a 1.0 system

therefore, nobody will do it. and nobody ever has, in like a decade

previously you could live in the drone regions: as the only 0.0 with trit, it was unsuprisingly the only one with significant industry

doesn't exist, now nowhere in 0.0 has trit

so basically you can't read, and are masking you being wrong with weasel phrasing

any perticular region will not have 3/4ths of fuel types and 3/4ths of regional moon mins, giving it an absolute importation need. the fuel and moon mins will not exist period

when it comes to lowends as a practical matter they do not exist in null. this is because they will never be produced under the current system rather than it being absolutely impossible to produce but that's a dumb you put in to avoid dealing with the reality rather than anything people actually looking at the scenario care about

you're poorly weaseling around things again

this came from a discussion on transport costs. each region must import 3/4ths of its fuel even if it mines all of the "on-race" fuel locally, and 3/4ths of its r8s/r32s

... if you import from other null regions (where you have theoretically conquered parts of each quadrant): they must be laborously moved from across the map (and it will be significantly harder/more expensive to do this than from jita).

the annoyance is that your entire arguing strategy is throw up chaff

...because a certain level transportation is an absolute necessity for a functional 0.0 it simply cannot be nerfed beyond a specific point, and that point makes certain parts of 0.0 industry still absolutely inferior to buying in jita and importing.

Most peopel are never going to build one anyways, and no one lives in null just because they can build a titan.

No that is not why.

Few peopel make the decisions, the few do not reflect the many. Most of us are not there for those reason, the few that run things may be.

Nor does that have anything at all to do with anything I wrote.


NPC corp industrialist should not be the most efficient in the game. They need to be nerfed, for the benefit of every other industrialist in the game. High, low, and null, none of us should be at a disadvantage compared to the NPC corp guy.

It's working exactly that way.
You can not argue against it, nor can it be justified when the rest of the game is balanced against exactly that.

nope blew that out of the water as it's impossible for that to be harder than importing from other regions of 0.0 absent immensely stupid game mechanics

And you can't invade, it's safe forever.

CCP doesn't want you staying in the NPC corps,...

This is one of the worst strawmen in this topic no matter when it comes up.

The idea isn't to force anyone, the idea is to make nullsec life compelling.

*crickets*

We can't really build our own empire if we don't have the proper industrial capabilities.

0.0 is broken by huge alliances who care only of themselves and make that unplayable to others.

We have plenty of newbies,....

If you want, you can always try being a newbie again and join a blob....

[Okay this is a big "stop trying to force people into nullsec" the OP answers this thankfully:

13) This is just about some players trying to force everyone to play like them.

- It really isnGÇÖt, diversity in the game is obviously really important, the vast majority of players specialise and that is a good thing. This is about balancing the regions of the game.

Null Empires should have an Industrial base of their own. It is necessary to make the source of their power vulnerable.

WHY shouldn't they be able to?

Oh and 0.0 ISK making is only somewhat better than hi-sec, and pales besides W-space. What do you consider "massive"?

I want there to be a reason for industrialists to take risks, make huge stacks of cash, go on adventures, explore new products and new markets, to be able to live their profession anywhere int he EVE universe they damn well feel like it. The last thing I want to do is to dictate to anyone the kind of social structure they have to participate in to experience that. But I also hate to see so many people discouraged from ever moving beyond the trade hub zones "because life out there just sucks and its not worth it and not fun"

He wants to give people the tools to take risk (etc).

If people are unable or unwilling to do so, that's their problem.

As a business venture, it was sadly a failure - ...

yeah, the renter model is really suffering - if only FAIL had the warm atmosphere and chivalric e-honoure of other, hugely successful landlords like -A- or SOLAR. Get real.

The only difference was this was targeted at the highsec miners who complained about the risk introduced in Hulkageddon V. As it turned out, the worst vagaries of Hulkageddon V did not merit a 20m investment. So we can conclude that, judging by their actions and not their words, the outcry behind Hulkageddon V was entirely without base. Or that the worst case in highsec industry is still far, far better then access to all of nullsec industry with practically zero of the cost.

Perhaps it truly is... e-honour based reasons.

Sorry but your musings on 'reputations' and 'impressions' being a barrier can easily be dismissed as ther unfounded claims of an uninformed NPC corp poster when simply noting the success of rental operations of the most elitist and contemptuous alliances like -A-. Or straight up celebrators of Hulkageddon like the HBC. Y'know, the groups that created those impressions.

That's what renting is, a net cost/benefit analysis.

i can't believe i have to convince garou carew and malphilos that yes renting exists...