Nerf hi sec to boost null sec is exactly as consequential as those who imposed the Tobin Tax with the pretense of funding other activities: they got NOTHING except their markets crushed and had to cancel it on the sly.

Making something suck does not EVER equal something else becoming awesome.

If I were you?
I'd have a POS deep in the heart of Deklein and it would have a Capital Ship Maintenance array and assembly and I would push it so every other POS had one too. Good luck figuring out what ones are actually making titans and what ones are decoys.

Who are you going to blame and nerf once thanks to the null buffs, zydrine will be worth 100 ISK pu and Mega 400?.

Not null I can see, but why the repeated ganking?

So unlikely, it's already partially happened. "We didn't want that 3.8k pu megacyte anyway".

Since new players start tagged with a NPC corp of a certain empire, many of them come from a NPC school, they are citizens. Thukker might be borderline but all the others are quite established as citizens.

I think a lot of the debate has shifted to how to improve null, and that will require a lot more than a highsec nerf (and that nerf may not even be necessary).

Heck, I even imagine at a certain point it'd be possible to unlock some NPC guards "SovCord" and finally achieve a true *empire* not just a glorified PvP territory.

If EvE was like this, I'd return to null sec tomorrow.

Also, I have born in a place and got moved at 1 month old, everything was meaningless fluff on me and hand no impact on my life yet I will forever be tagged with that birth nationality.

If life in null is now too tough, go ahead and propose a buff.

Basically a player made empire should be "like" being in hi sec, with the difference that taxes go to those who created the null sec empire and protect it (or made it possible to unlock NPCs to protect it).

How do you implement functional 24/7 player guards if you want a "civilized" empire and not just a glorified PvP outpost?
I did not really love camping gates for 5-6 hours turns back at the time, and we had just to guard 3-4 entrances to *1-2* systems.

IRL citizenship does not matter beyond some writings on a piece of paper too. A piece of paper you can change these days and pronto! you are now another country citizen and avoid taxes!

If civilized has no place here, then industry and research don't as well. You either have a permanent emergency military headquarter or you have a proper nation.

No, it's the ease of transport that "breaks" null industry.

More slots in null requires no change to high. Cost changes require no change to high. Mining is already available, and mineral availability is higher.

No, that's what I see every time they show the news about rich Americans / French moving out like that.

If I wanted to skirt paying taxes I'd just stay in my country, they are totally clueless at how to catch tax evaders.

So far my lack of imagination has brought here some examples and implementations, while you limited to rebuttals.
My imagination might not suit you but that does not mean I don't have it.

I see your point, it depends what the mechanics are, like the ability to build some sort of gate guns shouldn't be out of the question.

Love your articles on the mittani dude, it's go to reading for the nullsec debate.

EvE empires affect game play enough that people skill up and fly their empire ships. That's quite of an huge impact, even if on paper it's not forcible, yet it happens.

Comparatively speaking citizenship had more impact on my EvE character than me being in my country, I only bought a national car in my life and so on.

It's simply not true that everything in null has to be imported. It makes more sense to because of the ease of transport, but to say it must be so is pretty clearly false.

Even if that were true, that still wouldn't require a highsec nerf to correct. That's again pretty trivially obvious.

Considering as 3rd party I venture everywhere including wormholes (even posted screenshots on GD some days ago), I'd not say I "can't bear the risk".

This is your opinion, which is as good as anyone else's. When I first started the game, I watched the video, then browsed the available bloodlines and picked the "rebel" race. I found it just fitting (causation due to lore) that their ships were nimble and good for hit and run. I also found it interesting Minmater having a lot of low sec, it was just fitting with the rest of the lore.
The actual ships choices came later, actually I asked my first corp CEO which Minmatar ships were good for me to train and he told me.

This is my little case, I am sure I am not alone at this. Not everybody have born with pure min max and quickest path to fortune in mind.

No, I don't move out to 0.0 because out there are no markets to swing trade. I even asked one of your guys if you had something suitable in VFK but he said no

If civilized has no place here, then industry and research don't as well.

Nope, if there were nations in null sec (including guards) then traders could move goods in there and create a true second Jita where I could do my stuff.
Does not seem too complex to infer.

HighSec factories can and in fact are attacked, there is a little diference in relations to Null, they get destroyed, not like the null stations, so you are partly correct, they cannot be captured.

Hey, if you are so masochistic to want to play 24/7 like an NPC, be my guest!

Which material is unavailable in null?

It might sound strange but "adapt" was exactly what I had to do when told to patrol gates for hours.

"High Sec need Fixing" = "I'm a **** poor PvPer and need CCP to force none PvP enabled players to line up so as that I can shoot them"

End of story, admit the truth

I can agree with that. However I was few months old (you know, my risk FEAR brought me to gate camping in low first, null later) and was a grunt. So orders came and I executed them.

5% of all mineral consumption huh?
A good lawyer never asks a question unless he already knows the answer.

I am not a good lawyer.
Can you provide your source of that fact of 5% consumption?

So all materials are available in null, which was my understanding. Your confident insistence that they weren't suggested that I'd missed something but that turns out not to be the case. Rather it's the fact that while nobody may be producing them in null, that's result of rational choice as opposed to physical impossibility. Do I understand that much correctly?

What is the problem here?
You have an opportunity to make one of the champions of high sec defending against the null sec zealotry (OK, more like Don Quixote attacking a windmill, because this fight is already lost, null sec has won), and you want "ground rules"?

Just post your source.

Yes, it is a rant. It was a rant because this is an argument that comes up with stupid regularity by players who do not understand the High Sec game and as a consequence want CCP to change things in their favour.

So mining for trit isn't seen as a means to an end (ie local null sec industry) and the accrual of wealth by mining high end ores is?
...
Are you saying you are too risk averse to mine for trit in 0.0?

The risk is the risk of not being able to play for whatever reason.
The reward is getting to play the game.

Right now, since the goon propagandist just does not seem willing to provide his source of 5% of all null sec mineral consumption goes into supercaps, I am going to go get my hair cut.

But that's all in null, correct? The fact that you/yours don't control all the materials you want is something all together different. In short, you aren't forced to import them from higsec.

I believe controlling resources is supposed to be one of the drivers of conflict in null. No?

Yes, a dumb thing like "as a practical matter". It just once again means that you don't have to import from highsec. That's all.

The ease of obtaining materials from high is at least some small factor in the unwillingness ("practical matter") to extract/produce in null. Yes? I assume so because of the calls to make that production less attractive/profitable, but I figured I'd better check.

I'm not sure if you're just stupid or attempting to troll (badly, albeit) but what is the point of importing low ends to nullsec, to use in outposts at a less efficient rate than in High Sec; when it can simply be done in High Sec for less overhead/risk.

Specifically import from highsec, which you've weaseled (name source? naw, too easy) into "Well, you have to import from somewhere". Nonetheless it's looking more and more like it is too easy to import from high, especially when you say things like,

But that whole idea, in spite of the fact that you quite obviously agree, seems to have really set you off.

I'll say it again: because of the (now agreed at the very least relative) ease of transport from highsec, nerfing high will not achieve the ends you claim to desire, short of destroying highsec entirely.

So, because you want the ability to run Gallente towers in Caldari-ish space, and don't want to mine low ores locally, you *need* to trade with highsec to operate in nullsec?

I'll grant that it is more efficient and profitable to do so, but that supply line could get cut off tomorrow and your region-appropriate towers would still be fuelable, and you still could get all the minerals you needed (even if less efficiently).

It might not be efficient enough to hold the space against someone who did have a highsec supply line, but nullsec isn't actually *lacking* any necessary resource.

Haha. Seems like I hit the nail on its head. Who doesn't like the juicy goon tears.

Import and transport is fine, the relative ease of import from highsec which you pointed out is what I'm driving at.

Instead of nerfing hisec, why not just boost low/null? Everything is relative, isn't it? So make it worthwhile while risking your butt in low/null. I guess the people have a point that it's not only reward that keeps people in hisec. If people are not moving and rewards a dropped heavily, everything could become just more expensive. Let's see. I won't ragequit and watch the show. Eventually I'll just die a slow death.

EDIT: Remove incursions from the game.

I would NEVER move 100B worth of BPOs over null sec, where all what will happen is to lose them earlier (gank) or later (station conquered). That would be an alliance sized effort but the thousands of players are not all in the top game alliance as far as I know.

And sovereign nullsec is more efficient than anyplace else at making Titans and Supercarriers.

How much more manufacturing capacity could you possibly devote to that purpose?

How much more manufacturing capacity would you need before that particular market was saturated?

Impossible to do unless it's something you'd call stupid.

So necessarily it is possible, but you don't like it.

There's a reason you keep ending up here.

This thrash talk (assuming you refer to the null sec industrialist "hate") is exactly what happened to me, should I invent an alternate reality that makes me feel happier? It happened not in 1 but in *2* alliances and one of them is called Initiative Alliance (no idea if they are related to yours).

Yeah sure you have your cloud of buddies making you and what you do pretty safe, it's exactly the blueprint to apply on the whole game.

Since youre not risk averse I imagine you go do all your work and everything that gets you money in enemy territory right?

not being risk averse and all.

Cause youd be more risk averse to be doing it all in blue territory

Because I was alone in there, had nobody with me to talk with, I did not have two chats and IRC where to talk about those things, there were no others applying for the same positions and talking with me.

If you want I can post a screenshot of my farewell eve mail to my FW and null sec PvP corp mates, it does not mention "risk" anywhere. I would not have gone there if risk was so much of an issue for me. Actually I bought them a capital parts BPO (it was ALL my money) as my thank you for the time I have been there.

If you had 5 minutes a day to play the game for a year+ like I had, you'd have created a fat zero.
I quit my friends because I felt like a dead weight on them even if they never asked me to leave.

But hey, you know everything about everybody's life, don't you?

For the past 2 1/2 years, I have been teaching goons in a jabber channel all they could learn about EVE markets, the economy, and how to manipulate, speculate. Even the ones that didn't learn anything would profit greatly by just buying and selling when told. For all of this effort, I have only one other person like myself to show for it, (Mynnna/Corestwo). Then another handful of guys who have specific areas of expertise (Dramaticus), or a financial role(Weaselior).

My corp did not make large use of T1 frigs, nor of fleets of Drakes.

"Nerf him because I'm better than he is" is the worst argument for a change to the game, and that's essentially what you are saying.

Access to features is a benefit. Some features cost more than others. The cost of being able to build supercapital ships in a system includes having crap-all other industry there. Maybe that will change with the POS updates. Maybe it won't, but highsec industry won't get the kind of nerf you want, nor have you made a convincing case as to why it should.

Anyway, quit picking on high sec ..it's not the reasons for your woes.

Right here is, however, where you cross the line from reasoned argument to spoiled brat.

What you did to have what you do has no bearing on what others should have and what is in the best interests of the game as a whole.

Grow up already.

It's only an insistence that you have a better reason for it that "I worked hard for what I have, why to they get something shiny?!"

Titans are balanced by their cost.

Part of the cost is crap industry in the systems that can build them.

Sounds balanced to me, if you think it's not make a case for that.

I don't believe that hisec must necessarily be nerfed in order for a buff to nullsec to be possible without wreaking havoc with the economy. Simply allowing player-owned facilities to be as effective and efficient as NPC facilities (refineries in particular) would be a huge buff to nullsec without damaging hisec at all.

"Game balance" as you intend it is something done to traditional, linear games, where you basically know "how it must work" in advance.

http://themittani.com/features/its-time-nerf-highsec

You CAN nerf highsec. And I will honestly be surprised if they do not do something like this when (if, heh) the POS revamp comes around. It Makes SenseGäó

You say this as if CCP hasn't tried that before. The buffed anoms in 0.0 to pay more ISK. And the result was that with the player created safety of 0.0, those bounties from 0.0 EXPLODED and resulted in massive ISK inflation.

8 million ISK bounty from one rat? A trillion ISK in every wallet....

Buff null too much, and the player created safety of null leads to massive ISK inflation, another thing that CCP wants to avoid.

I'm 38, so i doubt it.

ISK inflation is the sum of all wallets of active accounts.

Price inflation is triggered by the amount of ISK that is actively being used to chase goods in the market place.

Having seen how static the sovereignty has been in your neck of the woods I would say Null is probably the safest place to be if one is a member of GSF.

[quote=Jenn aSide]
What evidence do you have that nerfing high sec will do anything other than cause mass unsubs by carebears?

One dimensional thinking about economics.

If I have a hanger full of stuff that I have no intention of ever selling, then there does not need to be sufficient ISK in other player's wallets to buy all that stuff.

I counter you "nerf didn't cause unsubs" with this. Those nerfs were FAR too small to get anyone to move from high sec to low or null. Those nerfs were FAR to small to satisfy those calling for a nerf of high sec.

What "incentive" - to use the same words of a Goon resident - is left to alliance warlords to push the grunts into battle again?
Once they are comfy and happy, everyone with their lil garden and job, their hunger will cease, their drive will slow down.

... and once you achieve the not so distant objective of having conquered all?

Speaking about conquering hi sec, I invited Baltec1 to setup the next Hulkageddon including me providing a little sponsorship but it kinda dried out fast.

Are you going to bring in Hulkageddon 2013 or not? Just to know if I put some ISK aside for it or not.

All that matters is the relative reward-risk factor. You don't need to nerf hisec when you can just buff low and null. And then if you're a low or null player you can laugh at how much you're making as compared to the hiseccers.

And how exactly is nerfing highsec refine rates making nullsec "compelling"?

Sounds distinctly like a goal, which is an odd attitude for a "sandbox".

This is my swing set. This is my sandbox. I'm not allowed to go in the deep end

Eh?