| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
lythos miralbar
   |
Posted - 2005.05.26 14:21:00 -
[91]
 Quote:
Bad bad bad.
Insta's help you avoid combat if you want to. Just like wcs. What is wrong if you don't want to get involved in any combat that you are able to avoid it with a little effort.
The effort required to avoid combat without insta's would be a total chore. Eve is time intensive enough when you want to get about and making that worse is a very bad idea.
Most people I seem to see complaining about insta's are people that want to be allowed to kill everyone they see and get upset because so many people can avoid them. To them I say tough - go and find someone who actually wants to fight you if you like PvP that much. PvP should not be forced on anyone and removing insta's is a big shift in that direction and will mean even less people in low sec space.
Just by signing up for eve you are concenting to pvp, even if you stay in 1.0 for your entire eve life. No where is 100% safe.
All you do by staying in 0.5 or higher is decide that if you do get shot, the attacker shoud lose thier ship to concord.. you are not "not concenting to pvp".
When you enter 0.4 or lower you are saying.. "ok I have concented to pvp just by signing up, but now I dont care if my attacker gets blown up by concord or not."
You may not like it but that IS the way eve works.. and yes you can be forced into pvp at any time. (Although the higher the security rating the less likely this is.)
REMOVING INSTAS WOULD NOT MAKE YOU ANY MORE LIKELY TO GET GANKED IF YOU USE YOUR HEAD.
why?? well because they help you warp to a gate.. not away from it.. If you enter a system and there are hostiles in local it is totaly up to you wether you warp to the next gate, or go to a planet or moon first and scan the gate.. or maybe warp in at 60km to the destination gate to check it out first.
Ohh wait no that would require some effort instead of "right click, warp to bm". 
Even with instas, personally if there are alot of hostiles around in local at a choke point I'll always do the above first. Its just common sense.
The only really valid argument for not getting rid of instas IMHO is the one of travel time. But thats just my opinion..
And I mean travel time for Industrials.. not BS's.
BS's should take a while to get anywhere..
|
Liare
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 14:25:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Jamius
Insta's help you avoid combat if you want to. Just like wcs. What is wrong if you don't want to get involved in any combat that you are able to avoid it with a little effort.
you dident really "read the box" so to speak on security standings on system did you ?
the entire point of 0.4->0.1 space is that nonconsencual PVP is possible, but hard. 0.0 space is the wildwild west where you can kill anybody you feel like.
i personally want insta's gone because they remove the gap between ships, meaning that actual shipspeed doesnt matter jack. warpspeed matters little (frigates, with smaller caps cant warp as far as a Battleship) and you can get from one end of the universe to the other within a hour or two at the most.
yay for a big universe where there is actual differences in the markets, not.
exsample, you and a couple of buddies are camping a gate at some chockepoint, a frigate warps in. your guys dont get a scramble on him (its hard to catch a well prepaired frigate) and he insta's to the next gate, if youre lucky a Interceptor MIGHT be able to run him down, but thats rather unlikely and if it does it will 3-4 jumps off.
remove the insta, and say he uses his MWD, while the interceptor does the same. voila, much more level playingfield for the Interceptor. sure, the pilot in the Interceptor doesnt have much time, but atleast he has a chance of taking the frigate out before it hits the gate.
what is insta's doing now ?
1. forcing people to us "OMFGWTFYOUDIEKTHNXNP" gank ships if they are to have any chance of getting the other guy before he warps to his insta bookmark at the other gate (assuming the taclker doesnt get a tackle in)
2. nullifies logistic as a important aspect of combat, you can be back home in less than a hour. why worry about ammo ?
3. its pretty much a automatic "I WIN" button that removes the importance of the ships actual speed from travel and makes killing people so much harder. (it works both ways the only effective way to "lock down" a system is to use a Mobile warp disruptor, and the reliability of those is limited at best)
removing insta's does what ?
it extends traveltime
it removes a automatic "I WIN" button when dealing with camps
_____________________________
Ex-Coretech, We still shoot people. |
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 14:35:00 -
[93]
Originally by: M'Ar Duk
"Then dont park where you need to spend 5 hours getting out of."
-Sobeseki Pawi
Translation: Never mount a serious invasion, ever.
Frankly, I _love_ Pawi's suggestions. I was tired of seeing 0.0 alliances change. We need more eternal stasis, where no large entities are ever threatened because anyone who can invade quickly would be frigates, and frig fleets while fun can be smashed utterly by a fleet of larger anti-frig-setup ships.
And if you're invading with battleships, that red blob will ooze like a hamster through the tract of a python, giving any alliance under 'attack' 4-5 hours to get together resistance or, barring that, safespot and play CS which is itself, as you asserted earlier, Sobeseki, 'victory' because you forced the enemy to waste their time.
Who am I kidding. Instas will disappear, sure.
Right after CCP fixes jetcan mining.
Use your imagination. You dont have to decide to invade, move the ships, invade, and be declared victor in one day or less.
Besides, you cant really do that now anyway, so the only real change is that people will care more about where your BSes are.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Hllaxiu
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 15:04:00 -
[94]
I hate the big=slow arguement. The fastest USN ship IRL are the Nimitz class carriers - also the largest. Why? They have far more powerful drive engines than the smaller ships and have far more energy available. In a naval environment, cruising speed is more dependent upon the power output of a given craft than the size of the craft. Depending on the "physics" of "warp drive" - battleships should go quite a bit faster than frigates - only because of their exponentially greater power output compared to their size.
Smaller ships of course have the advantage in acceleration.
|
Akilah Ashaki
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 15:31:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
I hate the big=slow arguement. The fastest USN ship IRL ...
And I hate the eve=IRL argument fact is, in eve, big=slow. Live with it !
oh and burn IJ ! Burn !
|
The Cosmopolite
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 16:19:00 -
[96]
If I'm honest it puzzles me as to how instas are going to be 'removed' from the game.
There seems to be two options:
1) Remove all bookmarking capability - thus gate instas are taken care of quite naturally
2) Put in some kind of code that prevents bookmarking near gates.
I really can't see how getting rid of all bookmarking would make EVE a better game. I mean, it would surely make it quite difficult to play in some respects. Instas get the headlines as BMs but we all use them for many other purposes.
So I assume 'getting rid of Instas' means something like coding up the game such that you can't bookmark near a gate.
Well, OK, but what would 'near a gate' mean? Any standard warp-to distance would have to be covered. (Because you could make instas that use the 60km warp-in without too much difficulty I suspect.) This then means that, say, 100km from a gate, a bookmark will not work.
Is that what is being assumed in this discussion? I'm just wondering really. No BMing in the same grid as the gate would be madness (or CCP would have to accept that nothing else but going through gates/camping gates would happen in that grid - they'd have to move missions out of those grids to allow loot BMing).
The only other comment I would make is that if and when CCP do this they should release the skills and modules that will allow more accurate point-to-point warping well ahead of pulling gate BMing out of the game.
It really would make no sense to shut down fast and semi-safe travel entirely overnight. The economy would collapse and large numbers of players would simply up and leave.
I wouldn't be one of them but CCP really need to think about unintended consequences for a change. (Because, I'm sorry, good as they are given the great game they've created, they do not, in my view, have a good grasp of what happens when changes that look good even in testing are unleashed on a server that avgs 9k users at any one time...)
Cosmo
The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine |
Auman
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 16:29:00 -
[97]
I love it when people don't read Dev Blogs properly and go off on one 
Someone has already mentioned it in this thread and a lot of you have chosen to ignore it and carry on your arguements. Read the Dev Blog or maybe it was a irc chat... If insta's are removed other options will be added to counteract long travel times.
|
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 17:29:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
I hate the big=slow arguement. The fastest USN ship IRL are the Nimitz class carriers - also the largest. Why? They have far more powerful drive engines than the smaller ships and have far more energy available. In a naval environment, cruising speed is more dependent upon the power output of a given craft than the size of the craft. Depending on the "physics" of "warp drive" - battleships should go quite a bit faster than frigates - only because of their exponentially greater power output compared to their size.
Smaller ships of course have the advantage in acceleration.
Do you know how long the Nimitz class takes to get anywhere near that speed? Also the Nimitz isn't a Battleship, if it were it would be much slower.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Liare
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 17:49:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
I hate the big=slow arguement. The fastest USN ship IRL are the Nimitz class carriers - also the largest. Why? They have far more powerful drive engines than the smaller ships and have far more energy available. In a naval environment, cruising speed is more dependent upon the power output of a given craft than the size of the craft. Depending on the "physics" of "warp drive" - battleships should go quite a bit faster than frigates - only because of their exponentially greater power output compared to their size.
Smaller ships of course have the advantage in acceleration.
funny how the ingame Battleships has the lowest speed, both warp and just moving.
guess they WHERE intented to move at frigate like speeds when they travel from point A to point B without fitting for it.
_____________________________
Ex-Coretech, We still shoot people. |
Cummilla
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 18:00:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Jamius
Bad bad bad.
Insta's help you avoid combat if you want to. Just like wcs. What is wrong if you don't want to get involved in any combat that you are able to avoid it with a little effort.
The effort required to avoid combat without insta's would be a total chore. Eve is time intensive enough when you want to get about and making that worse is a very bad idea.
Most people I seem to see complaining about insta's are people that want to be allowed to kill everyone they see and get upset because so many people can avoid them. To them I say tough - go and find someone who actually wants to fight you if you like PvP that much. PvP should not be forced on anyone and removing insta's is a big shift in that direction and will mean even less people in low sec space.
No no no....
First of all. I am the princess of Ganking! I would stand to benefit the most from this change.
BUT...I don't want this chance because it's a case of mislead people who happen to work in my line of business in Eve wanting CCP to change game mechanics to benefit them instead of using current game mechanics, inqenuity, and tactics, to accomplish the same end(ie, ganking).
This debate is ONLY about combat. Those pedantic types who think it's about something else are grossly misled. Eve is good because I SOLVE problems to reach game results, not moan to CCP to help me do the same or to somehow disassociate this issue from combat to something else(ie, some nonsense about how wrong it is for a BS to move across XX jumps at same speed as frigate with instas).
|
|
|
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 18:04:00 -
[101]
I dont gank...so what do you think my motivation is?
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Cummilla
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 18:09:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
I dont gank...so what do you think my motivation is?
Simple.
You're an alliance tool. 
|
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 18:13:00 -
[103]
Not in an Alliance either.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Cummilla
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 18:26:00 -
[104]
Okay well then that alleviates you from "two benefit of the doubt" areas.
What it leaves isn't very flattering to you so I'll just stop at that  |
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 18:27:00 -
[105]
No no, go on.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Kyska
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 11:48:00 -
[106]
Ok, first off, battleships ARE faster than carriers, but we don't have battleships anymore. Battleships have more power available, but in the end that primarily affects the ability of the ship to meet and exceed its lower hull speed*. A battleship must be overpowered compared to a carrier, due to its lower length at waterline. Carriers carry proportionally less power per ton than battleships for just this reason. Carriers don't even approach their hull speeds under maximum rated power. Large ocean-going tankers carry even less power for even less speed.
Now, to eve:
This thread is deprecated. Removing instas would be a very bad mistake. Instas in the form they're in represent a sort of 'forward intelligence gathering' that allows players familiar with the territory and with good intel to move very quickly through familiar terrain. They're most certainly not, as any pvp pilot will tell you, a 'free ticket through hot spots' (Sometimes that'd be quite nice).
That said, the developers have decided not to implement it, at least in the next patch.
-Kyska
* Hull speed is a function of the length of the waterline, though the use of the term 'Hull speed' is frowned on for discussion of power vessels. As the ship approaches its theoretical hull speed, the length of the bow wave and the curve of the stern wave begin to interact, which generates tremendous resistance. At the hull speed on some 500' ships, you need to literally double the power output of the engines for a 4kt increase in speed.
PS. Yes, the above footnote was geeky and will probably be ignored quickly, if I'm not derided for it, but if I can spread knowledge I will. :>
|
Kaeten
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 13:38:00 -
[107]
wtf, i hope this aint happaning, this will only cause gruops of ppl going around = lag. ccp want more lag?
___________________________________
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante |
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 13:58:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Kaeten
wtf, i hope this aint happaning, this will only cause gruops of ppl going around = lag. ccp want more lag?
How would this create more lag?
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Krulla
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 14:05:00 -
[109]
The only argument I've seen so far is "Instas make fast ships pointless!"
Well, uh, then what about combat? I was kind of under the impression fast ships were harder to hit, could control range, and could more easily escape than their slower counterparts.. but I guess that's all pointless becouse they can travel as fast as a slow ship in their class eh?
And Sobeseki, your "BS should not travel as fast as a frig!" argument is pointless. A insta using frig is at least 50% faster than a battleship traveling, as it both enters warp faster and warps faster.
The only argument I have seen for removing instas is so gatecampers can have a easier time.
|
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 14:08:00 -
[110]
Do you have any concept about strategy?
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
|
|
Krulla
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 14:11:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Do you have any concept about strategy?
Yes?
Why is it neccesary to flame anyone who does not agree with you?
|
Shayla Sh'inlux
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 15:15:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 29/05/2005 15:15:24
The removal of insta's will hurt both real PvP (ie no silly pirate ganking) and empire inhabitants.
Without insta's the tactical part of PvP as we know it now will be gone. It will be all about being able to blob up a key gate or system and we're back to bigger = better. Obviously Sobeseki has no idea what PvP looks like in the real insecure systems.
Without insta's there is yet another reason to never leave the yellow and green systems.
The reason Sobeseki flames everyone is because he's a teenager that is trying to defend a lost argument. Note how it goes from fairly reasonable to outright insulting with every page.
Removal of insta's = long live piracy, end of real-men's PvP and the end of countless subscriptions.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Do you really think that's air you're breathing?" |
Admiral Pieg
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 15:35:00 -
[113]
at least there will be no more snipers warping in and out from 200km above the gate
______________________
Pod from above. |
Aodha Khan
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 15:57:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Aodha Khan on 29/05/2005 16:01:22
Travel times need not be much longer if they changed warp in to 7.5km. Thats 5km to travel. Making bs slower but not causing too much difference with smaller ships. Just the way it should be. I can travel from one end of Empire space to the other in less than 20 mins in a bs ffs. If I can go almost anywhere in the one of the slowest ships in 20 mins then the Eve universe feels small and it isn't and shouldnt be so.
Intas allow you to get through a camped gate. Why should I be able to get through a gate, with little strategy whatsoever, that has dozens of ships protecting it? Try hunting players in frigates AND instas. With a 7.5km warp in at least there is a chance of a fight. If the other player doesnt want to fight he can scan the gate from a planet to see what is there (oh no, more strategy!), turn around and try again another time or make a dash for it in a fast ship.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak. |
Grim Vandal
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 16:19:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Krulla
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Do you have any concept about strategy?
Yes?
Why is it neccesary to flame anyone who does not agree with you?
cuz you are unable to see the bigger picture behind this change and other things to come...
nuff said... I wont go into details over and over again... some people just dont get it...
honestly I dont intend to blame you but the removal of instas is a very crucial step! but only one step...
even more to come... like no local chat... system scanning working even faster... more chokepoints into 0.0 (NWO)... more pos... system sovereignty... cosmos project...
not only the gankers who will benefit from this change do so since it WILL be WAY easier to catch them cuz they wont be able to run anymore, wont be able to hide anymore... wont be able to see you coming anymore...
it WILL be all about intelligence... and this for gods sake NEEDS to be a player profession...
... sneak attacks...
and for the intelligence profession to work the travel time of large fleets NEEDS to be slowed down... otherwise gathering the info will be pointless cuz a whole fleet can jump WAY too fast with instas...
telling me that YOU have an advantage if you have instas in your home systems is bull**** as well... you can buy WHOLE regions of instant sets for the price of ONE lv 4 mission!!!! so everyone who hasnt YET all the instas of each system he needs to go to IS definately a n00b...
at last: it is an isk sink = woot
Greetings Grim |
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 17:51:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Krulla
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Do you have any concept about strategy?
Yes?
Why is it neccesary to flame anyone who does not agree with you?
If that is a flame, you don't belong in a PvP game. It was a question.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Tas Devil
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 17:57:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Krulla
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Do you have any concept about strategy?
Yes?
Why is it neccesary to flame anyone who does not agree with you?
Because sobe is a 14 year kid with no real argument apart from flamming others... if it turns out he isnŠt 14 years old then its even worst as he behaves just like one
|
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 17:59:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 29/05/2005 15:15:24
The removal of insta's will hurt both real PvP (ie no silly pirate ganking) and empire inhabitants.
There is a such thing as fake PvP?
Quote:
Without insta's the tactical part of PvP as we know it now will be gone.
What is tactical about instas?
Quote:
It will be all about being able to blob up a key gate or system and we're back to bigger = better.
If you want to focus your forces in one position, super, I'll just go around them and win the objective.
Quote:
Obviously Sobeseki has no idea what PvP looks like in the real insecure systems.
If it looks like anything in 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5, 0.6, 0.7, 0.8, 0.9, and 1.0...I would have to say you are incorrect.
Quote:
Without insta's there is yet another reason to never leave the yellow and green systems.
I don't use instas, and I live in 0.4 and lower.
Quote:
The reason Sobeseki flames everyone is because he's a teenager that is trying to defend a lost argument.
I'm 21, and I haven't even started flaming.
Quote:
Note how it goes from fairly reasonable to outright insulting with every page.
Sure why not.
Quote:
Removal of insta's = long live piracy, end of real-men's PvP and the end of countless subscriptions.
So, strategy is for boys not men? Guess that means men aren't something to envy.
If instas are enough to get you to quit, you were never interested in playing Eve the way it was meant to be played.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 18:00:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Tas Devil
Originally by: Krulla
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Do you have any concept about strategy?
Yes?
Why is it neccesary to flame anyone who does not agree with you?
Because sobe is a 14 year kid with no real argument apart from flamming others... if it turns out he isnŠt 14 years old then its even worst as he behaves just like one
And everyone says Im flaming.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Tas Devil
|
Posted - 2005.05.29 18:00:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Originally by: Krulla
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Do you have any concept about strategy?
Yes?
Why is it neccesary to flame anyone who does not agree with you?
If that is a flame, you don't belong in a PvP game. It was a question.
sobe grow up... asking someone if they have a concept of strategy implies they donŠt... saying afterwards its just a question is almost like hiding your hand full of chocolate covered fingers and claiming you didnŠt just stick your fingers in the cake... 
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |