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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
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CCP Falcon
1445
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Good afternoon internet spaceships captains!
CCP Seagull is here with an awesome new Dev Blog, covering further details from her presentation in the Keynote at Fanfest 2012.
She would like to introduce to you all to our awesome new free developer license, as well as the CREST API beta period!
Feel free to check out all the details in her new Dev Blog!
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á-á@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents
-- Disciple Of The Delicious Tea -- |
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Thelonious Blake
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
16
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:Access to tools and APIs are free of charge, and we have no plans to charge for this access. We may however in the future decide to charge for heavy usage of certain API endpoints for example. Any such plans would be advertised with plenty of notice.
Could you please explain this. |
Aethlyn
EVE University Ivy League
166
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sounds awesome, although I fear I finally have to grab a credit card just to use that... argh! :) Would love to see some other verification process, e.g. Google uses mobile phone. I can understand the connection with a credit card due to the stored address data and stuff, it's still a bit... annoying. Credit cards are still not that popular/widespread in Germany as they are in some other countries. Looking for more thoughts? Read http://aethlyn.blogspot.com/ or follow me on http://twitter.com/Aethlyn. |
June Ting
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
8
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
s/resposnible/responsible/ paragraph 3
My main question as someone who works on a set of open source apps is how this interacts with other peoples' ability to modify code that I publish, and whether code written for CREST is going to be compatible with certain restrictive open source licenses (e.g. GPL) given that the CREST license agreement appears to place restrictions on how any code combined with CCP code can be used.
The other interesting question is whether I should publish source without dev API keys embedded and force each user to sign the CREST agreement in order to use an app, or whether I publish binary blobs containing my API key and hope nobody reverse engineers my dev API key from the binary. |
Graygor
1kB Realty 1kB Galactic
5771
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
This looks good. Cant wait to see how this will change 3rd party programmes and the new functions we might gain. Post with your brainGäó |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
860
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
You're really covering the bases with that Force Majeure clause, aren't you?
As for the way to distribute code:
Distribute source without your api stuff. Binary blobs are another matter (but be ready for revocation). Anyone that works with twitter apps has the same issue.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
1197
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
I cannot wait to dig into this! :D Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with using it. Game Designer | Team True Grit [url]https://twitter.com/RegnerBA[/url] |
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Delta3000
Barr Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Any reason why my post was deleted when I asked a valid question?
I'll reiterate, is this leading to in game apps or not? |
Valkyrs
Deep Vein Trading
11
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Going to read this ASAP! As a programmer and EVE Online player, I've found they are symbiotic. Glad to see steps being made to enhance this.
Keep up the good work! |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
1175
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
My pants are tighter.
Dual Pane idea: Click!
CCP Please Implement |
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Matalok
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Excellent news! |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
2365
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yay, so very excited about this.
Thanks also for addressing *all* of the concerns the CSM had with the previous version, including adding that condition to the Force Majeure clause... :) CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc. Reverberation Project
16
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Delta3000 wrote:Any reason why my post was deleted when I asked a valid question?
I'll reiterate, is this leading to in game apps or not? by reading the dev blog, i understand that this is a HTTP API, so:
it is external to the game
might not be an issue to make any opensource soft because the API is fully external, so no part of CCP code would be included in your 3rd party app |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
577
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Developer grants CCP a limited, non-exclusive, worldwide, nontransferrable right during the Term (i) to use the Application and view any publicly available materials associated therewith (e.g., documentation), and (ii) ***upon written request of CCP delivered to Developer, to inspect the workings of the Application, including but not limited to its source code***
I have developed for numerous third party products in the past and I have *never* been required to sign an agreeement which allows a third party access to my source code, especially in such a way that is worded to be deliberatly open ended. There is no mention of disclosure agreements, retention, filtering or limitation of access.
This is not something I could in good faith suggest any developer accept, especially if they're dealing with things such as online services and centralised databases.
Also, does this prevent charging monthly fees for things such as CREST-integrated KBs running tasks such as as auto-reimbursement? |
darius mclever
44
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
please allow all your normal payment methods to be used for the verification. |
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
102
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Posted - 2012.12.20 16:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
can you please clarify: charging (ingame) ISK for applications is not allowed, only donations? 3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
1175
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Peter Powers wrote:can you please clarify: charging (ingame) ISK for applications is not allowed, only donations? They did, twice... 3 times if you read the PDF as well.
Dual Pane idea: Click!
CCP Please Implement |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
233
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
This also means that there will be a developers community page where all player could go and harvest their programs???
This sounds good! No more Internet Scavenging... Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
860
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quick question:
Will this be used to cover access to the SDE? And if so, what would be the status of people who distribute converted copies there of, in other formats? (such as mysql, sqlite, and so on) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
5888
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Now this is really nice. Looking forward to this.
I would like input on the advert parts though, looking at for example Google Ads where there is somewhat limited ability to control them, how is this viewed in terms of the EULA breach?
/c
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Creca
O.Z. Prizon
0
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Small typo in the devblog:
Quote:Protecting players and our game universe. Applications that we didn't write that connect to our game can potentially damage both individual players and our game universe as a whole. We need to be able to both close down access for whole applications if they threaten the game, and reach a person behind each appliation. |
hfo df
Ramm's RDI Tactical Narcotics Team
10
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Awesome! Cant wait to get started! |
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CCP Seagull
C C P C C P Alliance
28
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thelonious Blake wrote:Could you please explain what do you mean by Quote:certain API endpoints
There are no practical plans for any of this - but there could be cases where if you want to query endpoints that cost us lots of bandwidth to deliver a lot, we'd ask you to pay for that. But we have no such end points today, and no such setup planned. I just wanted to flag that there is no guarantee that all access will be free for ever - just trying to manage expectations, in case we run into something that is too expensive for us to deliver for free, but that we could keep if developers were willing to pay.
/Seagull Technical Producer CCP Games Reykjavik |
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CCP Alice
C C P C C P Alliance
117
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
This makes me very happy! We're all very excited to see this becoming a reality :)
Alx Warlord wrote:This also means that there will be a developers community page where all player could go and harvest their programs???
This sounds good! No more Internet Scavenging...
Yes, at some point in the future we're hoping to have an Applications directory that would also include the Fansites and other player generated resources. It would most likely be on the EVE Community website, since the Developers one will be more tailored towards the people who are developing the actual applications, fansites, and all the other shinys. CCP Alice --áWeb Architect-á
"There is no knowledge without unity" |
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CCP Seagull
C C P C C P Alliance
28
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Quick question:
Will this be used to cover access to the SDE? And if so, what would be the status of people who distribute converted copies there of, in other formats? (such as mysql, sqlite, and so on)
SDE, access to the current API, and all other dev resources will be freely available, and not require the Dev License. Only CREST usage and Single Sign On usage will require the license.
Technical Producer CCP Games Reykjavik |
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CCP Seagull
C C P C C P Alliance
28
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Posted - 2012.12.20 17:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Developer grants CCP a limited, non-exclusive, worldwide, nontransferrable right during the Term (i) to use the Application and view any publicly available materials associated therewith (e.g., documentation), and (ii) ***upon written request of CCP delivered to Developer, to inspect the workings of the Application, including but not limited to its source code***
I have developed for numerous third party products in the past and I have *never* been required to sign an agreeement which allows a third party access to my source code, especially in such a way that is worded to be deliberatly open ended. There is no mention of disclosure agreements, retention, filtering or limitation of access.
This is not something I could in good faith suggest any developer accept, especially if they're dealing with things such as online services and centralised databases.
Also, does this prevent charging monthly fees for things such as CREST-integrated KBs running tasks such as as auto-reimbursement?
I will bring the source code concern to our legal counsel, to get a clarification of what the intention is here.
As the license currently stands, this would prevent you from charging for such a kill-board - but we are very interested in you sending exactly such cases to [email protected], so that we can look at how the license could evolve to support cases that are good for the community, and not a problem for us legally. Having concrete examples helps us a lot in this. Technical Producer CCP Games Reykjavik |
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Arydanika
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
200
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Posted - 2012.12.20 18:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm so excited to hear about CREST Beta. Fan apps like Aura are going to have a field day with this and I can't wait to see what they come up with.
Big ups to CCP to taking them to really sit down, look over the 3rd party developer license and bring out something which is a true boon to the community. I don't just mean from a free aspect though that is part of it. The risk involved with a move like this is tremendous and I'm so happy to see CCP Games is sticking with their tag of being Fearless in a way that is positive for the game and the community.
Happy coding to all! Runner of Voices from the Void podcast, Eve Online Pod Pack & DJ on eve-radio.com Sundays at 1800.-á Organizer of the ATX Eve Online Meet. GÖÑ |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
823
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 18:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nice |
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
102
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Posted - 2012.12.20 18:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Peter Powers wrote:can you please clarify: charging (ingame) ISK for applications is not allowed, only donations? They did, twice... 3 times if you read the PDF as well. they did not, 4.1 is the only mention of payment, and basically it doesn't specify in-game itself, actually it might imply it, but its not clear, i'm not an US-Law professional. hence i'm asking.
3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications |
Bai Guang
Root.
1
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Posted - 2012.12.20 18:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Peter Powers wrote:Zagdul wrote:Peter Powers wrote:can you please clarify: charging (ingame) ISK for applications is not allowed, only donations? They did, twice... 3 times if you read the PDF as well. they did not, 4.1 is the only mention of payment, and basically it doesn't specify in-game itself, actually it might imply it, but its not clear, i'm not an US-Law professional. See below: hence i'm asking.
it seems as if that is the case, currently you are not allowed to charge ISK for products, only donations, but they asked us to send queries to see if maybe that could be amended.
CCP Seagull wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:...
Also, does this prevent charging monthly fees for things such as CREST-integrated KBs running tasks such as as auto-reimbursement? I will bring the source code concern to our legal counsel, to get a clarification of what the intention is here. As the license currently stands, this would prevent you from charging for such a kill-board - but we are very interested in you sending exactly such cases to [email protected], so that we can look at how the license could evolve to support cases that are good for the community, and not a problem for us legally. Having concrete examples helps us a lot in this. |
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Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
102
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 18:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Bai Guang wrote: it seems as if that is the case, currently you are not allowed to charge ISK for products, only donations, but they asked us to send queries to see if maybe that could be amended.
ok, before i get into rage about a simple request for clarification that i made and how people white knight in about it, i'll just stop it here. The License does not mention ingame payments in any way, nor does it imply such intent. The Blog is unclear in the wording about it, and could imply it is not allowed. the part you quoted sais "charging" and avoids to differenciate between a real charge, and the transfer of ingame currency which legally and technically is owned by ccp anyways.
Now i'm dealing here with a license that is put under the law of a country which is known for its interpretable law, and cofusing law system.
So please forgive me when i'm trying to find out in very clear and reliable words whats meant. 3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications |
Amallya Trueshot
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 18:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Looking forward to this!!!! It will be awesome! |
Bai Guang
Root.
1
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Posted - 2012.12.20 18:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
Peter Powers wrote:Bai Guang wrote: it seems as if that is the case, currently you are not allowed to charge ISK for products, only donations, but they asked us to send queries to see if maybe that could be amended.
ok, before i get into rage about a simple request for clarification that i made and how people white knight in about it, i'll just stop it here. The License does not mention ingame payments in any way, nor does it imply such intent. The Blog is unclear in the wording about it, and could imply it is not allowed. the part you quoted sais "charging" and avoids to differenciate between a real charge, and the transfer of ingame currency which legally and technically is owned by ccp anyways. Now i'm dealing here with a license that is put under the law of a country which is known for its interpretable law, and cofusing law system. So please forgive me when i'm trying to find out in very clear and reliable words whats meant.
Oh i wasnt trying to give you a hard time about anything, I was just relating what the dev said on the matter of charging ISK, vice donations. I skimmed the licence agreement, but thats about it.
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
40
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Posted - 2012.12.20 18:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Good to see some movement on this, I have a couple of questions:
I'm currently working on an app that I intended to offer for a small fee. (I started on this after the previous talk was of an agreement that would allow us to charge rl cash for our apps)
1) if I create a non-crest API app then I don't need to sign the agreement and can still charge rl cash for it? 2) if I create a crest API app and sign up to the agreement then can I charge an isk fee for it (as opposed to rl money)?
Thanks. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
180
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 19:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
CCP Seagull wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Developer grants CCP a limited, non-exclusive, worldwide, nontransferrable right during the Term (i) to use the Application and view any publicly available materials associated therewith (e.g., documentation), and (ii) ***upon written request of CCP delivered to Developer, to inspect the workings of the Application, including but not limited to its source code***
I have developed for numerous third party products in the past and I have *never* been required to sign an agreeement which allows a third party access to my source code, especially in such a way that is worded to be deliberatly open ended. There is no mention of disclosure agreements, retention, filtering or limitation of access.
This is not something I could in good faith suggest any developer accept, especially if they're dealing with things such as online services and centralised databases.
Also, does this prevent charging monthly fees for things such as CREST-integrated KBs running tasks such as as auto-reimbursement? I will bring the source code concern to our legal counsel, to get a clarification of what the intention is here. As the license currently stands, this would prevent you from charging for such a kill-board - but we are very interested in you sending exactly such cases to [email protected], so that we can look at how the license could evolve to support cases that are good for the community, and not a problem for us legally. Having concrete examples helps us a lot in this.
The access to the source code is a show stopper. Unless CCP is willing to sign a NDA and licensing agreement with me. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
507
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 19:07:00 -
[36] - Quote
my PDF reader is broken so I have to go by the summary...
Quote: You can take ISK donations and Real Money donations to cover your costs, but you can't charge outright for usage, access or download of your application.
Does this imply that charging ISK for usage is not allowed by the new license? If yes, what's the rationale?
(so far CCP has tolerated charging for tools that use the EVE API as long as the payment is in ISK - e.g. EMMA, eve-commander, Covert Kitty' Trade Analysis tool, ... all used that model.) I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
20
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Posted - 2012.12.20 19:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
- You can take ISK donations and Real Money donations to cover your costs, but you can't charge outright for usage, access or download of your application.
- You can show ads in your application, but they can't be ads for stuff that's EULA-breaking, like RMT ads. We also reserve the right to ban other types of ads at our discretion - but this is a right we need to retain to protect our business, not intended to be an arbitrary or draconian ad policy. We just need the ability to deal with this on a case-by-case basis.
Why out-right ban this?
Until these rules change - I don't see anyone other than an student, coding enthusiasts, and starving artists/people with no business sense building apps for EVE with CREST. As anyone who has the skill and grit to build something valuable needs to invest a lot of time and energy into building and upkeeping a 3rd party app. Someone in that position will probably have a family/mortgage to worry about - so therefor wont invest in your ecosystem.
So why can't we profit from our efforts?
ONLY THE HARD.-á ONLY THE STRONG. |
iskflakes
Magnets Inc.
153
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 19:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
The source code disclose is a show stopper. Track your wealth with EVEStats - https://ohheck.co.uk/EVEStats/home.php |
Bai Guang
Root.
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 19:29:00 -
[39] - Quote
Bai Guang wrote:
Oh i wasnt trying to give you a hard time about anything, I was just relating what the dev said on the matter of charging ISK, vice donations. I skimmed the licence agreement, but thats about it.
After going back an re-reading the post/licence agreement, I can see how it could be confusing. I was just assuming the monthly fee for the KB was in ISK, but it does not clearly state that fact. So the ISK for usage thing is still grey, although I likely suspect that as it is currently written, we will not be allowed to charge ISK for our services developed w/ the CREST API.
With regard to the souce code, if I release something that is opensourced I dont think would be a problem, however if I intend to keep it closed source, then there might be an issue there. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
860
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 19:44:00 -
[40] - Quote
HARD STEEL wrote:
- You can take ISK donations and Real Money donations to cover your costs, but you can't charge outright for usage, access or download of your application.
- You can show ads in your application, but they can't be ads for stuff that's EULA-breaking, like RMT ads. We also reserve the right to ban other types of ads at our discretion - but this is a right we need to retain to protect our business, not intended to be an arbitrary or draconian ad policy. We just need the ability to deal with this on a case-by-case basis.
Why out-right ban this? Until these rules change - I don't see anyone other than an student, coding enthusiasts, and starving artists/people with no business sense building apps for EVE with CREST. As anyone who has the skill and grit to build something valuable needs to invest a lot of time and energy into building and upkeeping a 3rd party app. Someone in that position will probably have a family/mortgage to worry about - so therefor wont invest in your ecosystem. So why can't we profit from our efforts?
Because if you want money, this isn't the license to use. Talk to [email protected]
And I love how you're denigrating applications like Evemon as not valuable. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
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ItsmeHcK1
Kicked. Shadow Cartel
38
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Posted - 2012.12.20 19:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
A small note with regards to creditcard verification; a lot of us don't have creditcards. I, for one, live in the Netherlands, where nearly no one has a creditcard. I have however paid for Eve with Paypal or iDeal (the Dutch online payment system for banks) before. A link to one of these would be very helpful. |
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
20
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Posted - 2012.12.20 20:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:[quote=HARD STEEL][list] Because if you want money, this isn't the license to use. Talk to [email protected]And I love how you're denigrating applications like Evemon as not valuable.
Oh this app? http://themittani.com/news/evemon-development-suspended
RL stuff huh? What, did he finally got into clown school? Did he win american idol? Just walked away from what looks to be a countless man hours of his hard effort? Or maybe he needed to divert his energy into something he could do to feed himself/his family and live a life of comfort - and saw no way of doing it by working on this 3rd party app.
I didn't devalue the developers, their ability and their products - I'm pointing out the rules of this ecosystem denies people to profit from their work, drains them of their energy, gives us half-realized products and forces them to be given up on as eventually RL will win given enough time.
Talk to legal? What can legal say besides no and/or please sign this document that lets us pull the rug from you at any minute. ONLY THE HARD.-á ONLY THE STRONG. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
860
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 20:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
HARD STEEL wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:[quote=HARD STEEL][list] Because if you want money, this isn't the license to use. Talk to [email protected]And I love how you're denigrating applications like Evemon as not valuable. Oh this app? http://themittani.com/news/evemon-development-suspendedRL stuff huh? What, did he finally got into clown school? Did he win american idol? Just walked away from what looks to be a countless man hours of his hard effort? Or maybe he needed to divert his energy into something he could do to feed himself/his family and live a life of comfort - and saw no way of doing it by working on this 3rd party app. I didn't devalue the developers, their ability and their products - I'm pointing out the rules of this ecosystem denies people to profit from their work, drains them of their energy, gives us half-realized products and forces them to be given up on as eventually RL will win given enough time. Talk to legal? What can legal say besides no and/or please sign this document that lets us pull the rug from you at any minute.
Legal can arrange a license agreement with you, with proper renumeration for CCP, for you profiting from CCPs IP. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Gevlin
Dropbears with Kebabs SpaceMonkey's Alliance
195
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Posted - 2012.12.20 20:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
Is there a possible option to upgrade to a "making profit" contract in the future after I use the free licence to work through my beta testing.
Or will it be a case by case bases? Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
20
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Posted - 2012.12.20 20:36:00 -
[45] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:Is there a possible option to upgrade to a "making profit" contract in the future after I use the free licence to work through my beta testing.
Or will it be a case by case bases?
+1 to that. With Google you get a free level of usage and then pay when you go over. They even give you a console to check your usage over time to know when you're getting close to it.
Telling me I can contact legal as step 1 freaks me out. It's like a chick asking you to marry her on the first date
ONLY THE HARD.-á ONLY THE STRONG. |
Wollari
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
58
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Posted - 2012.12.20 21:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
I see lots of good ideas and thoughts in this developer license.
I know this has been asked already. But I'll just put this in my post for my complete open, not yet answered questions.
* Charing for services with ingame money. As Peter said It's just says charging, but not real or ingame money. * Using Advertisment is ok, but however, I'm limited to control the ads provided by a 3rd party ad provider (1)
(1) I know I can limit the shown ads on google adsense through their settings but this has limitations. * Google Adsense allows only 500 domains (afaik) to be blacklisted. * I can only block EULA breaking ads (example google ads) as soon as I get informed about them. * It's possible that EULA breaking ads are not shown to myself (through advertising options) so only others will see them not me. * People interested into putting out EULA breaking ads will always find a way to go around the limits you've added to your filters. Same goes to developing bots ... they'll always find ways around your code ...
I can accept the fact that EULA breaking ads are forbidden if I put them directly into my app or website, but I'll see clarification on the 3rd party ad providers.
Possible limitations would be - Allow 3rd party ad provider as long as the developer is * following guidelines for ad provider (for example: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EVE_Online_Fansite_AdSense_Guide) * maintain lists of blocked urls you (ccp) provide * maintain lists of blocked keywords you (ccp) provide
If this is not clear. Using Ad provider like google ads is like playing russian roulette. You can use it, but if they want to kick you in your butt, you'll always find a EULA breaking ad which slipped through your fingers.
|
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 23:02:00 -
[47] - Quote
I too would like other ways than credit card for verification, those aren't very common in large parts of Europe and I don't have one.
HARD STEEL wrote:I didn't devalue the developers, their ability and their products - I'm pointing out the rules of this ecosystem denies people to profit from their work, drains them of their energy, gives us half-realized products and forces them to be given up on as eventually RL will win given enough time. Except there are plenty full-realized products out there, which often are taken over by the next guy when the current guy doesn't have the time/energy/resources anymore to keep going. Generally 3rd party app development is considered a hobby, not a job and the licence reflects that. If you want to do it on a level beyond that it shouldn't be too much to ask to contact CCP for a different license.
Quote:Telling me I can contact legal as step 1 freaks me out. Don't be a wuss, even lawyers can't suck out your soul via e-mail (at least I think so). |
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CCP Zero Gravitas
C C P C C P Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 23:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Hooray! Looking forward to seeing what you all build with CREST! CREST wrangler |
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Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
149
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 00:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
HARD STEEL wrote:Telling me I can contact legal as step 1 freaks me out.
Ok, I guess the EVE ecosystem might survive even without your fantastic app/site/tool, when you'll quit developing it over this outrageous CCP move.
What app/site/tool did you write, btw?
May I have your stuff source code? << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
stoicfaux
1862
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 04:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
Quote: 2.2 ... For the sake of clarity, Developer may not redistribute, and Developer shall not knowingly allow any third party to access, the Game Materials or Game Data outside of the Application.
Not allowing data to be transferred out of the app might be overly restrictive. On one hand I can understand disallowing 'pass-through' apps that essentially act as middleware or general query servers to allow 3rd parties to get around the license, on the other hand it would also mean no screenshot buttons, no copy to clipboard function, no create CSV file option, no passing the apps' raw output to a websever to be rendered in pretty html, no pasting information into an email, etc.?
|
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gfldex
585
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 06:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:I cannot wait to dig into this! :D Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with using it.
Did you read and understood section 12.4? You might find yourself in a situation where your career is directly effected by this license agreement.
If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 08:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Quote: 2.2 ... For the sake of clarity, Developer may not redistribute, and Developer shall not knowingly allow any third party to access, the Game Materials or Game Data outside of the Application. Not allowing data to be transferred out of the app might be overly restrictive. I got a follow-up question there: Are Game Data and Game Materials supposed to include all stuff that would be freely usable without signing the license, like the SDE e.g.? Because the definitions in point 1.6 and 1.7 definitely read like they include that, but to me it doesn't make much sense that you would protect that data more for devs using CREST and accepting the license than for other devs. If Game Data and Game Materials were defined as only CREST-specific stuff which you get by accepting the license then the export restrictions wouldn't be problematic.
As an example: EveHQ's fitter allows exporting fits in a couple formats (xml for Eve, different text formats for EFT and forum posting). If I understand the wording correctly this would not be allowed anymore when using the license. Or even more broadly, EveHQ comes with a file which contains the SDE in SQL CE format. It's of course not meant as a redistribution, but it's not protected against app user or 3rd party direct access cause the data is freely available from the CCP website anyway.
License wrote:8.1. If Developer learns of any infringement or unauthorized use of any of the Game Data, Game Materials, or CCP Marks, the Developer shall promptly notify CCP. CCP has the right to transmit notices of infringement to or bring infringement actions against infringing parties. If requested to do so, Developer shall cooperate with and assist CCP in any such action, including joining the action as a party if necessary, at CCPGÇÖs expense. I guess this is probably one of the things in the license that's unlikely to ever be used, but I still find the notion rather strange that every 3rd party dev is supposed to be a copyright watchdog for CCP, even independent of any app the dev might or might not have published. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
860
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 08:58:00 -
[53] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:I got a follow-up question there: Are Game Data and Game Materials supposed to include all stuff that would be freely usable without signing the license, like the SDE e.g.? Because the definitions in point 1.6 and 1.7 definitely read like they include that, but to me it doesn't make much sense that you would protect that data more for devs using CREST and accepting the license than for other devs. If Game Data and Game Materials were defined as only CREST-specific stuff which you get by accepting the license then the export restrictions wouldn't be problematic.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2351149#post2351149
CCP Seagull wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Quick question:
Will this be used to cover access to the SDE? And if so, what would be the status of people who distribute converted copies there of, in other formats? (such as mysql, sqlite, and so on) SDE, access to the current API, and all other dev resources will be freely available, and not require the Dev License. Only CREST usage and Single Sign On usage will require the license.
Answers one of your questions :) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
19
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 09:14:00 -
[54] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:CCP Seagull wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Quick question:
Will this be used to cover access to the SDE? And if so, what would be the status of people who distribute converted copies there of, in other formats? (such as mysql, sqlite, and so on) SDE, access to the current API, and all other dev resources will be freely available, and not require the Dev License. Only CREST usage and Single Sign On usage will require the license. Answers one of your questions :) Not really. I know that I can use the SDE without accepting the license, what I want to know is what happens when I accept the license and then use the SDE (because I want SDE and CREST). I know this might sound like a nitpicky distinction, but we are talking about legal stuff after all. :) The license text appears to include all this stuff that would be freely usable without accepting the license. |
Psihius
Anarchist Dawn U N K N O W N
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 10:14:00 -
[55] - Quote
CCP Seagull wrote:As the license currently stands, this would prevent you from charging for such a kill-board - but we are very interested in you sending exactly such cases to [email protected], so that we can look at how the license could evolve to support cases that are good for the community, and not a problem for us legally. Having concrete examples helps us a lot in this. I'm actually interested in this too.
I would like the ability to charge people for using my services, and covering them with ads like AdWords isn't really an option until you have tens of thousandths of people using your service (and that still could not be enough). Charging some real money to cover hosting costs would be great (and when you are running a popular service, that's usually a dedicated server with monthly upkeep of 100-200 EUR if ordered from a hosting company. Or 2000-3000 EUR for a server that you buy for the service), because donations are unreliable. You may, or may not, get the amount you need. Maybe from the start there will be the ability to charge only ISK and only some very limited amount (like up to 15-30 mil), just to test things. And it could be the case that if the ability to charge some real money introduced, it should be evaluated by the CCP and allowed explicitly, with the associated paperwork and maybe some fee (like that 99$ fee that was planed earlier), or CCP taking some %. Maybe require service to provide some basic functions for free and ability to charge ISK or real money for more advanced stuff.
Main reasoning here is that developing and providing a reliable service should provide you with some income to be able to guaranty that stability. I would envision the ability to use PLEX to pay for services like 1 plex - 3-4 months of service. Or use aurum for that. Or just plain and simple external processing, although that is not very desirable, because making a system that is hack-proof and handles sensitive billing data with care is tough and costly, I know from the first-hand experience (I'm working with tens of online currency processing on a daily for 3 years now and continuing).
That's just something to think about. |
Golden Gnu
EVE University Ivy League
71
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 10:59:00 -
[56] - Quote
Thank you for making the license free. Excluding the original API, make this dev blog none-important for me. As long as you'll not be able to sell stuff on the market and reprocess items with CREST, I'll just use the old API Thank you for continuing to use resources on the API development. Download is the meaning of life, upload is the meaning of intelligent life http://eve.nikr.net - home of jEveAssets |
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 12:36:00 -
[57] - Quote
All I'm saying is Amazon and Google don't give a quasi open source license and tell you how you can and can't make money from your product to this degree. Giving me the option explain my business idea to lawyers and developers to see if they say yes isn't an option in my books as I've been down that road.
Why not just do it how everyone else is doing it?
i.e
http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/ http://www.google.com/enterprise/earthmaps/maps-compare.html
ONLY THE HARD.-á ONLY THE STRONG. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
382
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 12:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
Two step wrote:Yay, so very excited about this.
Thanks also for addressing *all* of the concerns the CSM had with the previous version, including adding that condition to the Force Majeure clause... :) Oh wow. The CSM has taken action over the past six months?
What else have you guys done?
+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark GÇ£SeleeneGÇ¥ Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
860
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 13:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
One thing about the maps api from google.
If you're charging for access to the application? You have to get the for business API. Which isn't free. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
181
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 15:23:00 -
[60] - Quote
gfldex wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:I cannot wait to dig into this! :D Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with using it. Did you read and understood section 12.4? You might find yourself in a situation where your career is directly effected by this license agreement.
Just move to California. Section 12.4 can't be enforced there. |
|
Gevlin
Dropbears with Kebabs SpaceMonkey's Alliance
196
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 15:25:00 -
[61] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Two step wrote:Yay, so very excited about this.
Thanks also for addressing *all* of the concerns the CSM had with the previous version, including adding that condition to the Force Majeure clause... :) Oh wow. The CSM has taken action over the past six months? What else have you guys done?
I feel this is a troll
Following the lines on what have you done for me................lately.
Keep up the hard CSM Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Marl Shawn
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 19:25:00 -
[62] - Quote
Quote:1.9. GÇ£PlayerGÇ¥ means a registered user of the Game in good standing. ... CCP's blue list must be huge. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
581
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 19:56:00 -
[63] - Quote
Marl Shawn wrote:Quote:1.9. GÇ£PlayerGÇ¥ means a registered user of the Game in good standing. ... CCP's blue list must be huge.
They joined HBC. |
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CCP Seagull
C C P C C P Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 23:06:00 -
[64] - Quote
I'm monitoring all the questions in this thread, and will work with our legal counsel to come back with answers after the holidays. So far the three main topics we need to clarify/address is how and what you can charge for, the source code access question, and the bits about hiring, but I'll also make sure we answer other questions that have come up. Thanks for your feedback and input so far!
/CCP Seagull Technical Producer CCP Games Reykjavik |
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Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
170
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 02:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
Somone can explain in short how this new development affect all of us ? i mean what things it give in reality even in theory.
EvE mods? More programs like EvE moon, eft etc? EvE isn't game, its style of living. |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 02:37:00 -
[66] - Quote
All I have to say about the new CREST Api is this.
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Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
582
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 04:39:00 -
[67] - Quote
So excuse me if I spam a few things now I have a little bit more time to go through it.
Quote:2.2. For the sake of clarity, Developer may not redistribute, and Developer shall not knowingly allow any third party to access, the Game Materials or Game Data outside of the Application
To what extent, if any, does this apply to data such as the existing SDD sets? If an existing applicable extends itself with CREST functionality would this content now fall under such protection? This is written very broadly. I could understand the need to limit the distribution of certain, limited content such as documentation on security scheme implementations.
But would this for example prevent a feature to export, let's say standings, or market data to CSV? This data would therefore be removed from the application in and of itself and become independent. I can't forsee this is what anyone intended with this, but it's a resulting effect all the same.
Quote:2.8 upon written request of CCP delivered to Developer, to inspect the workings of the Application, including but not limited to its source code
I know this one is already being looked at by the lawyers, presumably. As I already mentioned, this is written in such a way to be as broad as possible, giving the developer no rights at all to protect their code. "Including but not limited to source code" could potentially mean anything ranging from helper classes used to interface with the API, through entire applications, their supporting databases schemas and possibly even data (!).
A little over the top in my reading you might say? Well, part B and C of this clause seem to disclose the motive behind it. It is not about protection of the underlying technology, rather it is about them enforcing the license and as such is much more likely to be used.
An audit and compliance tool, rather than a mechanism of protection. It is entirely conceivable this clause would be used in conjunction with a bulk mail to simultaneously call in the full application stacks of anything which uses CREST for review.
As I've said before, that's not something I would accept, doubly so in its current boundless form. With the exception of any API toolkits CCP provides, my source code is proprietary, and I will not be compelled to share it unless I am suitably convinced of a need, guaranteed its protection, or paid a significant amount of money for the privilege.
IMO it would be fine for CCP to expect, given fair notice, to be provided with details on how certain functions work. This should be at a high level and should be limited to specific, focused inquiries. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
582
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 05:03:00 -
[68] - Quote
Quote:4.1. Developer shall not require the payment of any fees or other amounts in exchange for a PlayerGÇÖs access or use of the Application, its functions, or its content (including, without limitation, fees payable for unlocking or providing access to premium content).
So I'll come out and point out the obvious.. by definition "premium content" implies some form of premium. Otherwise it wouldn't be.
So, this is obviously a big one for those of us who have considered investing a lot of time and effort into developing third party applications based around EVE. Such a clause mandates that we cannot expect reasonable remuneration for our work from those which we provide our applications or services too.
It hugely disincentives developing with it. Time is valuable. The time I spend programming can and will be spent working on something else if I cannot benefit from it in some way, and as a result CCP ends up not benefiting from third party application developers.
Quote:6.3. Not withstanding any other provision herein, should Developer fail to respond within twenty four (24) hours to any three (3) e-mail requests in a row from CCP, which shall be sent over a period of no less than ten (10) days, CCP shall have the option of suspending the ApplicationGÇÖs ability to access the Game and the Game Data, as well as any other works or materials of CCP in CCPGÇÖs possession.
10 days is less than 2 weeks, i.e. less than a short holiday. 14 days would be preferable for this.
Quote:12.13. Governing Law. This License Agreement is made under, shall be governed by, and shall be construed under the laws of the State of Georgia
CCP is headquartered in Iceland. CCP's legal council is based in Iceland. CCP's server services are provided from London.
Why exactly would we be signing up under the laws of a third party country which has no jurisdiction to either? |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
19
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 08:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Quote:12.13. Governing Law. This License Agreement is made under, shall be governed by, and shall be construed under the laws of the State of Georgia CCP's legal council is based in Iceland. Just out of curiosity: how do you know this? I'd assume it's entirely possible that their legal counsel is at their office in Atlanta, which incidentally happens to be in the State of Georgia.
And it would make sense: If you already have an office in some country you want to make best use of the people's mentality there and employ them in fields for which they are famous and known to be unscrupulous *cough* weasel-like *cough* crafty, that's what I meant to say. *puts on fireproof suit* |
Ambo
I've Got Nothing
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 08:16:00 -
[70] - Quote
Having re-read everything, it seems there are now no plans whatsoever to allow developers to charge for their apps.
When the original anouncement was made (over a year ago now?) I thought the whole point of the dev licence was to allow us to charge for third party apps. As a consequence, I started working on a new version of my application that I intended to charge real money for.
Having spent over 500 hours of my free time on this over the last year or so, finding that I can no longer charge anything at all would be... Disappointing.
Obviously the original version was very much a draft proposal. I'm just surprised that such an apparently key part of it has been dropped. Especially after what happened with capsuleer. |
|
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
583
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 10:22:00 -
[71] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Just out of curiosity: how do you know this?
Their company is founded and registered there, with the majority of its staff there.
But they also give it as the address to contact their legal team:
You may refuse to transact business with us at any time in the future by notifying us in writing and sending such notice to: CCP hf., Grandagardur 8, 101 Reykjavik, Iceland, Attention: General Counsel. |
Risingson
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 10:30:00 -
[72] - Quote
Anyone knows the reasons for not allowing us to charge for apps anyway? Also what about gambling sites? thats a pure profit concept by nature. Eveeye.com Bordcomputer Systems |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
19
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 12:23:00 -
[73] - Quote
Risingson wrote:Also what about gambling sites? thats a pure profit concept by nature. Which part of CREST would a gambling site use? I don't really see why it would require write access on your API data. I'm not even sure why it would require any access to your API data at all. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
583
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 12:29:00 -
[74] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Risingson wrote:Also what about gambling sites? thats a pure profit concept by nature. Which part of CREST would a gambling site use? I don't really see why it would require write access on your API data. I'm not even sure why it would require any access to your API data at all.
Automatic payments and contracts, which I believe will be the single biggest use for CREST once the functionality becomes available. |
Balder Verdandi
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 13:01:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Seagull wrote:I'm monitoring all the questions in this thread, and will work with our legal counsel to come back with answers after the holidays. So far the three main topics we need to clarify/address is how and what you can charge for, the source code access question, and the bits about hiring, but I'll also make sure we answer other questions that have come up. Thanks for your feedback and input so far!
/CCP Seagull
Trust me, I can understand about protecting IP ...... I've had the displeasure of being compliant of this in my present job.
But what you're asking doesn't protect the third party developer's IP, and you might ask your legal department about making sure you (CCP) won't be violating someone else's IP.
I don't stab people in the back. -áWhen you do, you miss the look on their face and that's priceless.
Long live the failure known as "Unified Inventory"! |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
19
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 13:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Rob Crowley wrote:Risingson wrote:Also what about gambling sites? thats a pure profit concept by nature. Which part of CREST would a gambling site use? I don't really see why it would require write access on your API data. I'm not even sure why it would require any access to your API data at all. Automatic payments and contracts, which I believe will be the single biggest use for CREST once the functionality becomes available. Oh right, you got a point there. I didn't consider that applications might want to use CREST only for the application owner, but not for users. I think I'll leave now before the discussion starts if a gambling bet is (partly?) a fee. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
583
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 13:43:00 -
[77] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Oh right, you got a point there. I didn't consider that applications might want to use CREST only for the application owner
Setting up CREST credentials will probably be a difficult affair. I would not be surprised if the majority of early CREST keys were application-specific, filling a particular role for one application, typically web based.
Take the standings API. I expect that, within a couple of weeks of launch, major alliances will be using CREST based web applications, integrated with their existing forums and external permission systems, to manage and audit their standings. These will typically use one authentication key (a director of an executor) but act on behalf of multiple users. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
42
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 23:03:00 -
[78] - Quote
open source vs proprietary, open source wins imo, so much talent in the world that can be creative that the community can use.
this proposal is a new rebalancing of ccp of the api services (the $99 was charged not to be cost effective but still wtf), still shame there is some grey area's, tbh if it weren't for 3rd party developers this spreadsheet game would be very difficult to play by uninitiated, gues we need to see the Silver Lining in this. Eve Radio |
shadygirl
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 14:46:00 -
[79] - Quote
HARD STEEL wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:[quote=HARD STEEL][list] Because if you want money, this isn't the license to use. Talk to [email protected]And I love how you're denigrating applications like Evemon as not valuable. Oh this app? http://themittani.com/news/evemon-development-suspendedRL stuff huh? What, did he finally got into clown school? Did he win american idol? Just walked away from what looks to be a countless man hours of his hard effort? Or maybe he needed to divert his energy into something he could do to feed himself/his family and live a life of comfort - and saw no way of doing it by working on this 3rd party app. I didn't devalue the developers, their ability and their products - I'm pointing out the rules of this ecosystem denies people to profit from their work, drains them of their energy, gives us half-realized products and forces them to be given up on as eventually RL will win given enough time. Talk to legal? What can legal say besides no and/or please sign this document that lets us pull the rug from you at any minute. Frankly who cares for your money? You dont like it than dont code. Nobody is forcing you to code anything for EVE. So please take your profit making moaning to somewhere else. Like there isnt already enough grief on eve forums... On one side you want to be allowed to make profit but on other side you want to use CCP resources/products for free? I didnt see in any of your posts something you would be willing to pay to CCP for access to new API.Once they will be charging you for xy% from your profit than this may work (and I would be ok with that). But I see no reason why should CCP allow someone like you to make profit from their universe for free.
And next time instead of making fun from guys that made clearly huge service to eve community go to your clown school instead.
You want money? Get a job.
Personally I appreaciate that CCP put there this clause and insuring that apps for their games will be free.
Also would be nice if CCP would prefer/require developers to use either opensource, or provide code to CCP for review to assure that users (or ccp itself/servers/infrastucture) wont be endangered by malicious developer. As the 2nd option would clearly incur huge effort/cost on CCP side I guess opensource is way to go here. Althought CCP keep this 2nd option in play (as highlighted by Sentient Blade) I still think it would be just too big effort for them to review source codes for zilion apps.
just my thoughts |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
584
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 15:18:00 -
[80] - Quote
I'm pretty sure that shadygirl is either woefully uninformed, or just trolling... I suspect the latter, but I'll humour the post and reply.
Who cares for money? Simply put anyone who wishes to be rewarded in some tangible way for the time that they invest in creating such programs. I have been a developer for around 10 years now and have produced a variety of software designed to integrate with third party producs and services, much of which I dual licensed, and I am quite familiar with investing many hundreds or even thousands of hours of development time into pieces of software and to be frank, even when making something cool, the "coding high" doesnt last forever, and it's good to know you're going to get something out the other end of staying up for 18 hours in a row trying to debug some obscure error rather than just throwing in the towel.
The reason I claim you may be woefully missinformed is that the whole point of creating APIs and Frameworks around your platform (CCPs in this case) is to build an ecosystem of third party tools which are available to your users to enhance your product, at no per-application development cost to yourself.
CCP stands to profit from the production of CREST (and the API) otherwise they simply would not have made it. These third party tools will make their platform more accessible, and easier to use. They stand to benefit a great deal indeed. Such APIs are most often given away for free to get the biggest possible gain from their time investment in building the API.
Requiring open source simply is not going to happen. It's a cloud cuckoo land to imagine that is ever going to be the case for more than a small percentage of all software, and I also take exception from you claiming it improves security. Unless third parties were to validate every single line of code for every binary or script released for usage then you're still trusting whoever put it up, what's to say someone did not put in a backdoor prior to compilation? 99% of people are not going to go and compile their own applications, and what with the way that I suspect most of these applications will work, they're certainally not going to set up and maintain their own extensive codebases, databases and resources.
So CCP should first get the simple one out of the way; charging ISK for access to services should be allowed. It's a well established pattern with existing EVE related tools such as killboards, forums and route planners etc.
Charging real world money for it? Well, unless CCP wants to build its own payment system for creating licenses for third party sofware, and have contractual terms saying all payments have to go through them (Think Apple) then that's a non-starter too, really. They would be much better off coming up with a series of constraints and limits on sale (i.e. default maximum fees) to keep things sensible, if the product is not good enough, people simply won't pay for it, or will use an alternative. If people are willing to pay for it then it must add enough value that CCP probably should be dropping them a mail asking them for some kind of deal.
In summary:
* People want the opportunity to gain from their time investment.
* CCP is giving it away for free because that's what is most profitable for them. |
|
shadygirl
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 19:19:00 -
[81] - Quote
That was not a trolling attempt. I just expressed my opinion on hard steel's demand for profit. Imho CCP is right to not allow outright profit. Though they allow donation which is fair. If he (hard steel) is programmer and is looking in a way to make money he should find other project/job.
I will just stop here as I have no intention to drag this thread down as it serve other purpose. I just felt it needs to be said in contrast to what hard steel said. Thats all.
Fly strange |
Synthmilk
The United Peoples of Synth
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 22:24:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:CCP stands to profit from the production of CREST (and the API) otherwise they simply would not have made it.
I am very glad I do not live in your world.
Because in my world, people tend towards making things for the benefit of a target group, if not everyone, and it is the desire to improve the experience of those people that drives development, with profits coming in as a reality check that limits what can be done with the available resources.
[economic rant] Sure, many people, such as your self, put profits first, and the quality and capability of the product, and the well being of the customer, second. This is why we not only have the CoD and BF series of mindlessly entertaining titles, among others, but why there are so many horrible products out there in general, that only just barely meet the requirements they were intended to, not to mention it is why many economies are in ruins. In theory and practice, the "Profits First" mentality fails, horribly, being sustained simply by government subsidies and bail outs, with taxpayer money. [/economic rant]
While CCP will benefit from creating tools that strengthen the community, if you think that is the ONLY reason they have done it, or even the primary reason, then I pity you for being so cynical.
If CCP was more concerned with making money than creating their product or providing services to the community, they would have removed the open, player driven economy, made it impossible to attack anyone else in Highsec at all, and done numerous other things to water EVE down into something that average casual couch jockey would pick up and play.
Instead they have stuck to maintaining a game that is still challenging to play, not to mention code, balance, and maintain, listened to, and implemented, player feedback, and generally been a hell of a lot better than most other developers of any genre of game when it comes to doing things for the players benefit, at the cost of an even larger bottom line that they could have gotten by doing something else.
So I want to thank you CCP for giving the community these tools, and for placing more value on improving your game and building the community than your profits. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
593
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 22:31:00 -
[83] - Quote
There's so many things ignorant, contradictory and just plain wrong in the above post I don't even know where to start. |
Hienz Doofenshmirtz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 11:09:00 -
[84] - Quote
Question, do we know yet what kind of information Crest will provide for Dust514 players? I know this is probably not the best area to ask in, and that answering it might not be allowed. However, it'd be nice to know for a project I'm working on. |
Dino Boff
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 02:50:00 -
[85] - Quote
I am fine if CREST starts with limited features and restrictive terms of use. The sooner it get deployed, the better.
However, I hope we will soon get looser terms of use for internal corp/alliance/coalition application/wer site. A corp might have different people working on different apps that might need to share data with each other. It would be a shame if those apps had to stop sharing data or pass on using CREST/Single Sign On. |
Karanar
DeathByDestruction
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
The fact that we cannot charge for access to anything we build with the API is very disappointing. I was intending to create a very large web application using the API that would total thousands of development hours with myself and another developer, but if we cannot even collect a small fee if necessary to cover our costs and development time then it is just not financially viable to spend so much development time on.
I hope CCP will reconsider letting thirdp arty developers charge for the hard work they put into making tools for the game.
Also for any Devs, the [email protected] email address is not accepting mail.
Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:
[email protected] Your message can't be delivered because delivery to this address is restricted
If you would like the full email headers please drop me a PM. |
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 15:00:00 -
[87] - Quote
I didn't mean to troll and get people upset - my point was the rules of this ecosystem is win/lose/win (ccp/3rd party devs/the public). Lose being rules against us being able to bill for memberships and profit from our work - given enough time real-life will over-ride all ambition for us building things for EVE. Personally I'd LOVE to build an EVE app, build a team and put some hardware behind it.
Another variable I'd like to point out is, with the last posters comment about the legal email not being setup, the duration of time thats passed since this was announced at fanfest and my gut reaction after reading the API documentation - I'm getting the feeling not much effort is going into CREST - at least on the public side. I say this as someone who has read the API documentation for pretty much every major web service project from Amazon Webservices, Microsoft CRM, Salesforce.com and the wide range of Google APIs.
Perhaps the team is working on the internals right now but seriously, how many people are allocated to this and how important is the CREST project to CCP? ONLY THE HARD.-á ONLY THE STRONG. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3530
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 09:35:00 -
[88] - Quote
I'd have some questions:
1) How can I deal with not accepting RMT, EULA breaking ads?
None of us small time developers have their own advertising network so we have to rely on Google Ads and similar.
The RMT and EULA breaking ads spawn continuously and there's a limit on how many can be blacklisted. Even on prominent "legit and known good" sites like Chribba's EvE search those ads may appear.
If you want to help apps developers you should provide some CCP made ads wedge / filter with the ability to cut off the offending ads that don't suit CCP's standards.
2) Is there a provision to provide markets polling or pushing / queue subscribing? The current way is to (ab)use of the in game cache and upload data on third party sites for further processing and relay. This is quite intrusive, borderline gray area as for the EULA is concerned and many more other burdens.
3) CCP, out of everyone should know how life is a cold, harsh sandbox. If you want to get out the part time hobbyst 3rd party apps status you should create a revenue scheme for professional developers that makes it worth investing time in developing EvE apps. Make it something of a "opt in gold app membership" where, out of a possible same developer apps pool, the developer may choose some for gold membership, involving:
- for the developer the ability to charge - for CCP the ability to claim a developer revenue percentage (CCP can monitor how many apps get bought or even create a mini-Steam) or a license fee. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
45
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 10:14:00 -
[89] - Quote
Dino Boff wrote:However, I hope we will soon get looser terms of use for internal corp/alliance/coalition application/wer site. A corp might have different people working on different apps that might need to share data with each other. It would be a shame if those apps had to stop sharing data or pass on using CREST/Single Sign On. From a legal perspective, corp and alliance mates can't really be treated differently than any other players, so I wouldn't expect looser terms in that regard.
I agree it would be a shame to pass on data sharing or CREST, but maybe there's a workaround for that, especially if the different apps are made corp/alliance internal by people knowing each other to some extent: Just bring the apps under one roof and declare them one app (which isn't that far of a stretch if they share data anyway). Different people would still work on different parts of the new big app, so it's just a change in overall organization. Probably inconvenient compared to now but it should be legally sound. |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
59
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 19:47:00 -
[90] - Quote
I cannot wait to get a hold of CREST. However, can you pretty please add the player's/corp factional warfare affiliation to one of the CREST resources? I'd really really like to update some websites to deny access once a corp leaves militia. It is currently a PITA to manually check the 10's of corps/alliances to make sure they didn't leave militia. QCATS is recruiting https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180
|
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Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
258
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 18:58:00 -
[91] - Quote
I've been on this planet for over fifty years and not needed nor wished to have an instrument which was designed to shackle one into debt. And I do not intend to start now.
So, does this mean that I am going to be excluded on the grounds of Clear and Prudent Thinking? |
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
258
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 19:12:00 -
[92] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:gfldex wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:I cannot wait to dig into this! :D Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with using it. Did you read and understood section 12.4? You might find yourself in a situation where your career is directly effected by this license agreement. Just move to California. Section 12.4 can't be enforced there.
It can't be enforced in a lot of places; it will be classed as Restriction of Trade and that is heavily frowned upon.
I used to love such clauses in my past contracts; by having that in a contract it meant that I could have it terminated at any time on the grounds of it being a not-legal instrument. That's got me out of a few horrible contracts in the past.
I am looking forward to coding against this API for sure. I have a couple of applications in mind.
|
Tici Toc
Posique Corp
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:17:00 -
[93] - Quote
1) The developer cannot be responsible for filtering a 3rd party Ad network. CCP must approve an Ad network outright. 2) If CCP starts charging for CREST then the developer must be allowed to charge for the app
|
Khaim Khal
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 18:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
Myfanwy Heimdal wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Just move to California. Section 12.4 can't be enforced there. It can't be enforced in a lot of places; it will be classed as Restriction of Trade and that is heavily frowned upon. I used to love such clauses in my past contracts; by having that in a contract it meant that I could have it terminated at any time on the grounds of it being a not-legal instrument. That's got me out of a few horrible contracts in the past.
Section 12.15 (Interpretation) has some language about severability. I'm guessing the contracts to which you are referring did not have such a clause? |
Kelath Erebus
Galactic Imperium Galactic Industrial Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 18:43:00 -
[95] - Quote
I guess my views echo a few others...
First off, without a sizable traffic flow you're not going to be able to support your own private ad network in order to restrict certain types of ads. You're not going to be able to get that sizable traffic flow without a sizable income flow to cover the costs of your servers and support infrastructure. So either select a specific, widely used ad network that any site can easily utilize that will return a sizable profit to cover costs or the ad restrictions need to be removed.
Secondly. Some developers are interested in creating apps that can be run by individual players (EVE Mon, EVE Fitting Tool, etc.) or are based on a centralized website with a small traffic foot print, for these individuals this free license works great. They can build what they want and not worry about having to really cover any significant costs. However... Some developers are interested in creating large platforms which cost money to maintain (eve-kill.net, eve-commander.com, etc.), depending on their size these costs may cover not just servers, but additional support infrastructure, for these developers this free license is to restrictive. My only suggest would be to maintain the free license but also provide the original $99/year license so that developers can choose whether they want to have the ability to charge pilots (isk or real currency) for services or whether they're happy just l |
Evanova Android
Traquenard Labs
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 02:16:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Zero Gravitas wrote:Hooray! Looking forward to seeing what you all build with CREST!
How about commenting on all the suggestions and various comments on this forum? |
|
CCP Seagull
C C P C C P Alliance
49
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 18:06:00 -
[97] - Quote
Just a note to say that work is in progress to address many comments and issues from this thread - and also that DUST joining Tranquility today means CREST is now in full production - which is a big big technical step on the way to making it available to 3rd party developers. (CREST is how DUST clients communicates with Tranquility)
More soon!
/CCP Seagull Technical Producer CCP Games Reykjavik |
|
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
715
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:45:00 -
[98] - Quote
Seagull noted that source code will no longer be a requirement:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2464800#post2464800 |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 07:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
May I ask what kind of features can we expect in CREST in the future?
I'm concerned about a few things. Like if you allow market orders to be queried and bumped, then making marketing bots will become easier than ever, however it could still have a legal use case which is useful. There are similar areas which could have unwanted effect, when used improperly.
So, could we have some thoughts/plans shared on what features can we expect here?
Thanks |
Artem Valiant
NecroRise Squadron
26
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 06:38:00 -
[100] - Quote
Any news about beta test? |
|
Chimordy
Genstar Inc Villore Accords
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 22:49:00 -
[101] - Quote
Great to hear CREST is now in production. When you say Quote:CREST is how DUST clients communicates with Tranquility does that mean all communications between DUST and Tranquility use CREST or is it a subset?
Is there an approximate release date yet for Beta test release? Next month, summer, or 2014?
|
Pollo Rico
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 02:52:00 -
[102] - Quote
CCP Zero Gravitas wrote:Hooray! Looking forward to seeing what you all build with CREST!
Pollo he not approve of CCP hanging carrot over Pollo's head. Pollo liken this to - - - Hey Pollo Jr.... Pollo Sr., he get you sand box. But sand... Pollo Sr think that come to you later. Pollo Sr dont know when... So, Pollo Sr, he want Pollo Jr to stare at empty sandbox. Pollo Jr, he not want to look at sand box instructions... Pollo Jr... he want to play in Sand....
CCP, Pollo... he not approve of the "when its done" mentality. Pollo like to know when Pollo can play with this API instead of reading about how it work. That is all. http://tinyurl.com/Pollo-Approves |
Risingson
51
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:08:00 -
[103] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxVxIFAQP5I Eveeye.com Bordcomputer Systems |
Nig C
Project Stealth Squad The Initiative.
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:10:00 -
[104] - Quote
Quote:Das CREST-Syndrom (Synonym: limitierte systemische Sklerodermie, lSSc, Thibierge-Weissenbach-Syndrom) z+ñhlt zu den Autoimmunerkrankungen der sogenannten Kollagenosen. Diese Erkrankungen entstehen, wenn das Immunsystem beginnt, k+¦rpereigene Strukturen anzugreifen. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREST-Syndrom
regards, Nig C |
Chimordy
Genstar Inc Villore Accords
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 16:32:00 -
[105] - Quote
Since there hasn't been an answer, I am going to guess the answer to my question I asked 2 weeks ago......2014 if we are lucky.
Quote:Is there an approximate release date yet for Beta test release? Next month, summer, or 2014? |
Laendra
Universalis Imperium Tactical Narcotics Team
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 18:42:00 -
[106] - Quote
Buckingham in Feb...Feb is almost over now... |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
781
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 18:44:00 -
[107] - Quote
They can't even keep the main API working at this point, and we've been told that external API is not really a priority... so at this point CREST is probably not going to happen for another year. |
Wacktopia
Noir. Black Legion.
470
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 01:03:00 -
[108] - Quote
Quote:You can take ISK donations and Real Money donations to cover your costs, but you can't charge outright for usage, access or download of your application.
Assuming that "you can't charge" is referring to real world money as opposed to ISK?
Quote:You are not allowed to make whole new game products.
So, a lottery site, which is technically a whole new game product, is not allowed?
linky The bottom line is that now I have one of those annoying signatures. |
Wacktopia
Noir. Black Legion.
470
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 01:19:00 -
[109] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:The source code disclose is a show stopper.
It actually goes further than that, the exact letter is...
Quote:to inspect the workings of the Application, including but not limited to its source code
So technically if you host a service / website you just signed away access to your servers etc to CCP whenever they want. The bottom line is that now I have one of those annoying signatures. |
Dino Boff
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 15:27:00 -
[110] - Quote
Can we have an update about CREST release? |
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Dino Boff
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 12:06:00 -
[111] - Quote
bump |
Teh Supah
Brave Newbies Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 16:09:00 -
[112] - Quote
bump |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1324
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 16:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
I wouldn't expect an update until fanfest now. There's a devtrack presentation on it. And it's being live streamed iirc.
1pm GMT, Thursday. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Chimordy
Genstar Inc Villore Accords
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 16:05:00 -
[114] - Quote
Did CCP make any announcements about CREST at fanfest? |
Iam Farve
DH consulting
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
They need to sort out licencing, then release the new dev website, then SSO and then CREST (with same limited scope to start with as announced before). No ETA was given. |
Patrick Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 01:20:00 -
[116] - Quote
update this thing plz, i would love to see some of CREST activated along with odessy. at least let us have a CREST mail API so we can have spell check enabled mailers and mailers where you can sort the people you want to talk to efectively. and MAYBE a contacts setter, so when you start an alt or a new corp you can port them over right quick? a couple of things that don't go far beyond what the EVE gate lets you do now, a way to iterate on the EVE gate without spending dev time, throw us a bone, come on. i kind of wish i could update research with a tool, but i can see how that could be broken be someone automating it, or using it to cancel corp jobs without logging in and betraying yourself, i just want some things that are (mostly) harmless and the same as what the EVE gate does. pretty plz with cherry on top? or at least an update on when it will go live |
Twart Coder
RinduWaffe Panic Legion - Please don't shoot
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 09:34:00 -
[117] - Quote
CCP, can you make any announcements about CREST? |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
102
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 12:00:00 -
[118] - Quote
Twart Coder wrote:CCP, can you make any announcements about CREST? FYI, there are some tidbits of new information in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=257854 |
Malus Sentio
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 05:57:00 -
[119] - Quote
|
Dasola
Rookie Empire Citizens Rookie Empire
208
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 10:38:00 -
[120] - Quote
After reading throw this whole thread, and reading the devblog. I can only say this, i will not touch CREST with 5 feet stick until licencing gets some common sense into it. What CCP seems to forgot that these 3rd party apps make their game better by providing services CCP haven realized are needed or is too busy to make themselves..
Current licensing terms seems favor CCP a bit too much for my taste. Will not recommend anyone signup for this.
Also why only credit card verification? Not everyone has one, nor need one. Personally i pay eve throw Paypal bought timecodes. This way no criminal hacker that brakes someone elses system, can clear my bank account by missuseing card information. We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do... |
|
token trade alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:17:00 -
[121] - Quote
This is neat and all, but the restrictions and whatnot really soured it for me.
I don't like throwing my credit card information out all willy nilly, let alone even mentioning I have one.
If a player or corporation offered me a commission to create an application for them based off of the API, does this mean I could not accept it due to the restrictions? These things are somewhat common in EVE and other games as it is. If we cannot do that, why can we charge ISK for avatars/sigs and server hosting, instead of just asking for donations out of 'the goodness of the users heart.'
These restrictions are going to drive away legitimate developers and ones who break the rules will find other means to do so, as they do and have.
For a game that prides itself in being 'progressive' this is a terrible step forward. |
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