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All things insta, or the "Do you know the way to Nonni? Dev Blog

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kieron	Posted - 2005.05.30 20:04:00 - [1] Insta book marks. Almost everyone have them, has read about them, or posted about them. Doesn't matter if what your playstyle, PvP or PvE, chances are you've got an opinion. Well, Oveur has written a new Dev Blog all about Instas from a Dev viewpoint, what they do, what they cannot do and how they have an impact on the game. Big topic, sure to generate big discussion. Throw out your thoughts and comments here, just keep things civil and constructive. Last one to Yulai buys the Quafe! kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Soren	Posted - 2005.05.30 20:06:00 - [2] Edited by: Soren on 30/05/2005 20:14:00 Doesn't give alot on the path that CCP plans to take to "fix" the issue.. we already know there's a problem and something needs to be done. Originally by: kieron Last one to Yulai buys the Quafe! Haven't been to Yulai in over a year and a half _________________________________________________________
Zerodragoon	Posted - 2005.05.30 20:14:00 - [3] Originally by: Soren Edited by: Soren on 30/05/2005 20:12:36 Doesn't give alot on the path that CCP plans to take to "fix" the issue.. we already know there's a problem and something needs to be done. Sure it says their path, they don't have one yet and are still trying to figure it out. -------
Kade Shaderow	Posted - 2005.05.30 20:23:00 - [4] Edited by: Kade Shaderow on 30/05/2005 20:23:45 Ohhhh boy Quote: - Other people using instas become [close to] invulnerable - Other people using instas travel as fast as you - Other people that don't have instas are dead meat - If you do use instas and don't have instas to a certain location, you probably won't travel there because you know you will get killed - Mobile warp disruptors can in many cases stop YOU and everyone else using instas, let alone the one that do not (and will probably stop you faster and easier after the next patch) - New players who loose their first ship because they didn't have instas usually quit before they even learn what an insta is - 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.) The Devs did a better job of arguing it than we ever could.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.05.30 20:25:00 - [5] Faster ships are (usually) smaller ships with (usually) smaller sensor strengths. This implies less accurate spacial movement over long distances (going by the general trend of ingame science). Slower ships are (usually) bigger and with (usually) larger sensor strengths. This implies a more accurate ability to spacial movement over long distances. In other words, make the slower bulkier ships able to land nearer to the gate but faster agile ships land farther from it. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Kade Shaderow	Posted - 2005.05.30 20:29:00 - [6] I hope they don't kill safespotting.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.05.30 20:49:00 - [7] Edited by: The Enslaver on 30/05/2005 20:49:49 Originally by: Kade Shaderow I hope they don't kill safespotting. Agreed, but they need to alter the probes idea. Should be along the idea of a System Scanner module, with that doing the scans - give it modes for the different ranges of the probes, and with about a 1 minute scan period, skill depending. Covert ops module only, and unscannable on the scanner (probes currently show). Would be better. -------------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.05.30 21:01:00 - [8] w00t nice blog, mostly because I agree with it I'll agree that instajump bookmarks are in a need of a nerf of somekind. Don't really have a solution except making the warp in point even more random and have a way to stop ships from jumping That could be a bit to much in favor of the gate gankers though. To be honest though I don't think a single ship should be able to jump through a heavily camped gate. If there would be more ways into 0.0 I think the best way through a camped gate would be to go through another gate that is not heavily camped. Even go so far as to throw some special scouting modules that would allow us to scan the gate at the other side. Bah just brainfarting here, ignore if necessary __________ Capacitor research
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.05.30 21:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 30/05/2005 21:07:44 Originally by: Dust Puppy w00t nice blog, mostly because I agree with it I'll agree that instajump bookmarks are in a need of a nerf of somekind. Don't really have a solution except making the warp in point even more random and have a way to stop ships from jumping That could be a bit to much in favor of the gate gankers though. To be honest though I don't think a single ship should be able to jump through a heavily camped gate. If there would be more ways into 0.0 I think the best way through a camped gate would be to go through another gate that is not heavily camped. Even go so far as to throw some special scouting modules that would allow us to scan the gate at the other side. Bah just brainfarting here, ignore if necessary Errrr. It can hardly be a heavily camped gate if you can't spare an inty to sit on the exit gate. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.05.30 21:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Errrr. It can hardly be a heavily camped gate if you can't spare an inty to sit on the exit gate. well that's true but some gates can only be camped on one side though but yeah point taken. __________ Capacitor research

Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.05.30 21:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Dust Puppy Originally by: Joshua Calvert Errrr. It can hardly be a heavily camped gate if you can't spare an inty to sit on the exit gate. well that's true but some gates can only be camped on one side though but yeah point taken. On a related note, it'd be nice if there were no gate activation sounds/effects LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.05.30 21:20:00 - [12] Originally by: Joshua Calvert On a related note, it'd be nice if there were no gate activation sounds/effects But how would I know when to warp to a safespot __________ Capacitor research
Der Ewige	Posted - 2005.05.30 21:50:00 - [13] As i was reading the blog I had an idea. It is for sure not perfect but maybe usefull. What if you would need 85% of max speed when warping to a bookmark instead of the normal 75%. That wouldent make you more vulnerable when warping to the gate, but would make you more vulnerable on the other side, when trying to escape.
Bryanna Rivellan	Posted - 2005.05.30 21:55:00 - [14] Edited by: Bryanna Rivellan on 30/05/2005 22:00:51 best dev blog I ever read /sarcasm can't wait till it gets implemented /cynism hooray for sitting at my computer watching my ship do 30 jumps in 3,5 hours. What fun I will have. /realism [Edit]: I hope you guys won't screw this one up... because otherwise I dont see a bright future for eve. Easy ganks all over the place.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.05.30 22:04:00 - [15] ah the old controversy of the instabm's.... being a devil's advocate here, since I like them, I, as many of the players in EVE (I still remember viceroy talking about it and agreeing with him in the issue), I also would like to see a way of making them having drawbacks. whether is the "warp navigation computer" solution, a solution that passes thru a new skill, or even removing them and putting a smaller warp-to distance point. IMHO, the most efective way would be to make the warp-out point in the jumpgate, a random point from 5 to 30km from the gate, where you would have a hi, or med-slot "warp nav. computer" wich would allow you to decrease the randomness of the warp-out point, but somehow making impossible to hit the 100% accuracy. even so the idea that JC gave was also good. oh and a way to discourage ganking, if you go to 0.0, would be to implement this change at the same time if you increase the number of entry points to 0.0. ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Bryanna Rivellan	Posted - 2005.05.30 22:14:00 - [16] I do have another question.... what about gang members that set themselfs up to be mobile warp points? basically they are doing the same thing as a insta bookmark...
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.05.30 22:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Bryanna Rivellan I do have another question.... what about gang members that set themselfs up to be mobile warp points? basically they are doing the same thing as a insta bookmark... you can't shoot insta bm's though LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Soren	Posted - 2005.05.30 22:31:00 - [18] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Bryanna Rivellan I do have another question.... what about gang members that set themselfs up to be mobile warp points? basically they are doing the same thing as a insta bookmark... you can't shoot insta bm's though now all fleets are going to have covert insta jump ships O_o _________________________________________________________
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.05.30 22:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Soren Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Bryanna Rivellan I do have another question.... what about gang members that set themselfs up to be mobile warp points? basically they are doing the same thing as a insta bookmark... you can't shoot insta bm's though now all fleets are going to have covert insta jump ships O_o ....and is it bad? I also thought that covops were already used in fleet battles... ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Antic	Posted - 2005.05.30 23:02:00 - [20] Nerf all instas. Then we have a reason to start nerfing gate camping. For travel time add an option for long range travel but at a cost. Like a subspace area workign as a hub (kinda like the GRID in AO) wich gives you control of where entrances and exits are. Also adding some other form of gates for long distnace travel that costs ISK to use would be good.

Colthor	Posted - 2005.05.30 23:29:00 - [21] I posted my idea here. Corvus Dove came up with a counter-proposal in that thread that I was perfectly happy with. -- OTO are selling Impel and Bustard transport ships. Contact Tsavong Lah or Lacero Callrisian for details. Like mining, hauling or building? Join OTO!
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.05.31 00:36:00 - [22] Instas make you close to invulnerable? Is this dev even using f'ing instas? I couldn't count the amount of ships I've lost using instas because the other party was bright enough to web me while I was alligning for warp. Fact is anything bigger than a frig or inty can and will be caught regardless of using instas. I also notice no plans to address gate-ganking. Let's put it this way: Without instas, gate-gankers become all powerful, no-one tries to make a run out to 0.0 because it is sure and certain death every time. Now since the devs are obviously deadset on forcing anyone who doesn't want Eve to be a twitch-based FOS in space to quit, maybe they don't care about that. Instas are used for other things but they've become prevelent because of the predominance of gate-ganking. A sensible person would nerf gate-ganking first then do instas so that we don't have weeks or months of being unable to move and quit in frustration but no, that would inspire too much whining accross the forums so because we've had a horde of gankers whining that they don't want to have to work or use their brains for a kill, instas get nerfed. Players who aren't mad keen on pvp either stay in newbie corps for their entire career or their supposed to enjoy being forced into a playstyle they don't want. So, with instas: Some people try and make a dash to 0.0, half of them get caught (because, dev's just fantasising aside, they don't make you invulnerable, more targets for the gankers. Remove instas: No-one goes out to 0.0 because it's sure and certain death every time, no targets at all, even more whining on the forums. Any date when this will come in? I want to figure out if it's worth renewing my accounts or not. Someone email me when the devs get a clue and actually try to make the game balanced. _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
Clutch Cargo	Posted - 2005.05.31 00:39:00 - [23] Seems the key point in the blog was "invulnerability" while travelling. My question is who cares? You're invulnerable in a safespot. You're invulnerable in 1.0. There are plenty of times when you will be invulnerable. This brings up my point, which is fun gameplay. I for one am not a PVP'er. I don't find the idea of ganking haulers approaching a gate "fun". I don't think the haulers find it fun either. What I do find fun is playing the market. Buying, selling, producing etc. Why should my fun be ruined in order to increase the fun of griefers because I might be able to get by them in my hauler while they wait to gank anyone who approaches? The only reason for getting rid of instas that holds any weight is server load issues. This is actually a non-issue as BM's can be handled by the client. Any other reason for or against are simply opinion based on "wants". Gankers want them gone so they can gank everyone. Others want them gone so they can avoid gankers. It's that simple. I loathe the idea of yet another set of skills and another set of mods just to do what should be necessary functions in the game. IMO it won't be nerfs that kill this game, it will be the incessant nerf/skill cycle.
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.05.31 00:43:00 - [24] Just in case I didn't make it clear enough the first time: Nerfing instas while leaving ganking intact = Monumentally stupid, short-sighted, potentially game-killing move that makes me wonder what the hell you're drinking up there. _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
Zerodragoon	Posted - 2005.05.31 00:54:00 - [25] Tbh I'd just make 2km warp in a option, instas for everyone. If people want to catch targets tehy should get off their lazy butts and setup warp bubbles (which of course should be made sure to work) or snag them on the otherside (whoaomg hard concept). Its time to get combat away from gate ganking. -------
Seraph Demon	Posted - 2005.05.31 01:32:00 - [26] I'm of the opinion that everyone should be able to travel faster, make a skill to reduce minimum warp distance by 2.5km per level (lvl4 = 5km, lvl5 = 2.5km). Make warp-in direction totally random, so that bookmarks are useless for everything except safe-spotting, et voila! Then allow for gates to be locked-down (sort of) with warp-scramblers, for each point of scramble strength on the gate there is a five second timer that has to elapse before you can jump (This gate is being disrupted, callibration will take 10 seconds). Thus campers can set up their sniper ships 800km away and then need put a heavy tank right on the gate with a warp-scrambler to slow travelers long enough to make the kill. Even better than that would be introducing a new battleship fitted module for scrambling gates: Spatial Fold Disruptor disrupts the behaviour of jump-gates, increasing their callibration time for all travelers by 10 seconds, its use is considered illegal in empire space, and will cause sentries defending the jump-gate to attack the offender. Fittings: Hi-Slot, 2500 PG, 100 CPU, 200 cap every 20 seconds, w/ skill to increase cycle-length Another cool thing would be to have an agent service (based on LPs) that lets you cause callibration errors for members of a corp you are at war with, for every gate in a system. So you can slow down your enemies if they're trying to escape. Pay 200K isk and 1K LPs to get a 5 second callibration error for everyone in this system we're at war with for the next 5 hours Pay 2M isk and 10K LPs to get a 10 second callibration error for everyone in this constellation we're at war with for the next 10 hours Pay 20M isk and 100K LPs to get a 25 second callibration error for everyone in this region we're at war with for the next two days So corps can establish strong strategic positions by working up favor with agents around their own stomping grounds.
Sceartan	Posted - 2005.05.31 01:45:00 - [27] I tried posting this in the dev blog but my bubble planck thing is broken.. so here goes; "How can we decrease the invulnerability factor while still keeping some amount of the travel time deacrease and safety of instabookmarks?" I really can't see a way to fix this that hasn't already been discussed; 1) Remove all BMs within xx distance from gate (30 for example). This helps reduce server load. 2) Decrease the warp in range from 15km to 2.5km with a roll of the dice on probability of hitting +/- y% distance from the gate. 3) Another skill is pointless as it would just become the primary skill to train for the current user base. In the same way that you train up MWD when starting a new char, you would just add another x amount of days training for everyone just to be on equal grounds. Besides, if it works off the "warp in at 15km option" but with Level 5 Warp Uberness giving you a xx% chance of getting closer.. what happens if you do want to warp in at 15km? The only suggestion I can contribute is make certain gates in 0.0 conquerable. This can be choke points into constellations or regions. It sounds CRAZY!@ but it might just work if you give it some thought. When you conquer a gate, you can control who can use it based on standings. To satisfy exploration of new space, corps with 0.0 standing should be able to use it (make it a mandate from CONCORD or whoever built the gate in the first place). You must also maintain it before it reaches a state of disrepair and it all falls to pieces. Once this happens then anyone can use it as the gate would shutdown certain authentication systems in able to keep the primary function of jumping running. This makes corps/alliances that claim space be able to control it but without handing it to them on a platter. Maintaining it could be providing fuel like you do to a POS, but the requirements can't be too high as hauling fuel is ridiculously painful (hah without instas@#!.. irony 4tw) Tie the matching gate between the two systems together so that if gate A becomes conquered, then gate B is conquered as well and vice versa. This would allow an invading force to take over a gate without having to go the long way around the region. Don't make the shield HP unbelievably high so it takes 100 battleships to take down a conquerable gate in a nights play. But by all means don't make it easy.
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.05.31 02:08:00 - [28] Removing instas without adressing gate ganking would be a monumental disheartenment to the player base. Ganking, slower travel, all this will turn eve slower and more fragmented. eve does not need to get slower, it needs to get awake and moving, right now it feels like its in a coma. Sometimes, and i know we all feel this sometimes, we log in, change our skill look around corpchat, see nobody you particularly want to talk to, and think "screw it" and log off. Give us some good changes that will actually inspire people to play more, besides the gankers. theres a reason only 1/6 of the playerbase is online at any given time. I dont see how the lack of instas could profit anybody but the gatecampers. and i also dont see any of this lag caused by instas. maybe it would be easyer just to store them on client, but still, i just dont see the lag as an issue. My 2 cents. My Quote: "You can call me a carebear all you want, but your still an arrogant slimeball"
Vito Parabellum	Posted - 2005.05.31 03:46:00 - [29] Invulnerability? With warpbubbles, smartbombs, the ability to jump after your prey to the other side of the gate and finally the time it takes to get into warp. All those things can kill you regardless of instas. The last thing is the real killer, the time it takes for you to get into warp. Only frigate sized ships or smaller are 'immune' there, unless of course there are a few warpbubbles on the other side too.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.31 04:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Gamer4liff Removing instas without adressing gate ganking would be a monumental disheartenment to the player base. mwds, sentry guns, transport ships, planning your route, and more ways to avoid the gank. There are very few times when a gate camp is unavoidable, and even fewer times when a gate camp is impassable. Besides, if they are more prepared than you...why should you get through? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?



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