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Chuxup
Born-2-Kill
0utNumbered
3
   |
Posted - 2012.12.26 21:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Solo PVP to me has always been looking for fights - not looking for ganks. Not to say I won't take a gank if it's handed to me, but if you're complaining about specifically ganking being harder because of a change in the mechanics, grow a pair and do some real PVP.
Also, there are plenty of good opportunities for soloers in null-sec. Not every gate is camped by 30 dudes. You just have to know where to go and be smart about how you move, have tacticals and safes set up in the systems prior to roaming. If you're really worried about running into a camp, make an alt on your account and fly it through the area you're going to roam before going through with your main. |
Sentamon
433
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 22:18:00 -
[32] - Quote
2 years! 2 years down the drain!!!
thanks for the laugh  and Happy Holidays.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Tommassino Preldent
SON OF RAVANA
Dominatus Atrum Mortis
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 22:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
Check out a legion, it can very well do the same thing as the pilgrim with more tank. I mean cmon man, ppl were ganking ratters in WHs long before the AI change and its not that hard. |
Judas Lonestar
Wormbro
Ocularis Inferno
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 23:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tommassino Preldent wrote:Check out a legion, it can very well do the same thing as the pilgrim with more tank. I mean cmon man, ppl were ganking ratters in WHs long before the AI change and its not that hard.
Yeah, and you get extra satisfaction in knowing your intended victim feels even more hopeless and defeated when you show up right next to him in a Legion vs a Pilgrim. |
Hench Tenet
The Suicide Kings
Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 02:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:I will admit... I had completely forgotten about the Pilgrim in the midst all the new changes. Spugg Galdon wrote:I am confused as to why you think your T2 cruiser is weaker than a T1 BC. Because the only advantages a HAC has over a battlecruiser is speed and size. Battlecruisers simply possess more tank, fitting options, and firepower for a quarter of the price. Hell... some Tech 1 cruisers are almost, if not just, AS GOOD as their Tech 2 variants (e.g. Thorax and Deimos, Vexor and Ishtar, Moa and Eagle, Caracal and Cerberus).
You serious? |
Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
60
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 03:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
Chuxup wrote:Solo PVP to me has always been looking for fights - not looking for ganks. Not to say I won't take a gank if it's handed to me, but if you're complaining about specifically ganking being harder because of a change in the mechanics, grow a pair and do some real PVP.
Also, there are plenty of good opportunities for soloers in null-sec. Not every gate is camped by 30 dudes. You just have to know where to go and be smart about how you move, have tacticals and safes set up in the systems prior to roaming. If you're really worried about running into a camp, make an alt on your account and fly it through the area you're going to roam before going through with your main.
You make some good points, but I can't count how many times I got fights because someone came to rescue their tackled buddy... or the carebear I just popped comes back to fight.
Why give more outs to carebears who already have a nearly risk-free environment? |
Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs
Zulu People
72
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 04:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
Meditril wrote:For what reason do you think that rats should not attack you when you uncloak next to them?
Why the hell would the rats blow up a ship that is:
A) Much less of a threat than the drake, and
B) currently HELPING them
??
That's the stupidest possible thing they could do. Thus, they should never do it. Rats exist to serve the goals of rats. Not to encourage combat on a level playing field between third party capsuleers... |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
Thanks for the comments. Will look at other ships but the training time and ISK are getting beyond me
What is ganking ? Several ppl suggest Im a 'ganker' and Im getting my just punishment
I thought ganking involved overwhelming numbers ? Its always suggested quantity over quality to me?
chuckle and shake your heads but i consider a solo covert kill without backup on a T3 a magnificent job well done , even if there are a few rats on the guy . It can and does go wrong. Its far from easy and not a gank. I had a whine because it appeared that CCP were eroding MY part of eve. I trained and bought a Hulk for solo income and its now a pile of **** . I developed a technique for attacking better players in better ships ( yes. I consider all of you posters better than me ) and CCP appear to have screwed me again.
What also is this emotion that i should "get out there " and have a clean fight. Do armies still march at each other in Red Coats with shiny hats ? Ive jumped a ROFL in his legion who gets away and then challenges me to a " fair fight " - after refitting and making sure he has a mate in the room next door in case it goes pear shaped.
This is changing the thread , but id like to know why SOME of you think its almost immoral to jump a guy my way instead of an open 'clean' fight, if such a thing exists.
So two questions. 1. What is a gank and am i a ganker if i have no back up?
2 Is solo covert somehow dishonourable compared to shredding solo ships in gates , or using bait ships
And 3. :). Is solo really solo if you are interacting with other players?
Solo in Eve still means Sex. - its not ************.
Please ameliorate the rat hatred of specific ships such as the pilgrim in lo sec. What happens in a wormhole should stay in the wormhole
Zen Dad
|
Mars Theran
Pod Kings
1393
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:31:00 -
[39] - Quote
Judas Lonestar wrote:Since you cant seem to think out of the box let me help you adapt old man.
Wait till the Drake kills the rats, THEN jump him.
You are welcome.
I think the point was that he was accustomed to using the rats dps to his advantage when hunting: Pop in on the Ratter while he's engaged and taking damage, point and web him so he can't get away, Neut his cap and watch him die. It doesn't work for him anymore, so now he has a problem with the new AI.
I'm not sure if that's a reasonable argument or not, but it is an argument. Personally, I don't have much sympathy for the OPs POV, but I do understand the purpose of the tactic. It's legit enough as it is.
Drakes are usually passive and buffer tanked, so it's unlikely they'll often have more than 7 active modules on average and that works to the disadvantage of the hunter in this scenario if the assumption of active modules playing a part in the AIs behaviour is correct.
Personally, I'm not arguing if it is or not, so much as acknowledging the possibility. I never paid much attention to it as it wasn't ever that important to me. Something you might want to do if you plan on using these sort of tactics though.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs
Zulu People
73
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:05:00 -
[40] - Quote
Quote:I think the point was that he was accustomed to using the rats dps to his advantage when hunting: Pop in on the Ratter while he's engaged and taking damage, point and web him so he can't get away, Neut his cap and watch him die. It doesn't work for him anymore, so now he has a problem with the new AI.
That's just it. It's supposed to be a new AI. Artificial INTELLIGENCE.
Not artificial suicidal stupidity engine.
Attacking the pilgrim in that case is flat out, straight up the absolute wrong decision for a pirate. The thread is aptly titled, and this is indeed a problem with the new NPC coding. Whether it be minor or a side effect or whatever, it is a problem *shrug* |
Nnamuachs
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:Quote:I think the point was that he was accustomed to using the rats dps to his advantage when hunting: Pop in on the Ratter while he's engaged and taking damage, point and web him so he can't get away, Neut his cap and watch him die. It doesn't work for him anymore, so now he has a problem with the new AI. That's just it. It's supposed to be a new AI. Artificial INTELLIGENCE. Not artificial suicidal stupidity engine. Attacking the pilgrim in that case is flat out, straight up the absolute wrong decision for a pirate. The thread is aptly titled, and this is indeed a problem with the new NPC coding. Whether it be minor or a side effect or whatever, it is a problem *shrug*
I'm curious why this is the wrong decision. Arguably players are (supposed to be) intelligent, and in the normal progress of events, players want kills. If I'm shooting a hard target (with little threat based on capabilities) and a softer (more valuable/bigger threat) target shows up. I'm likely to pop him first, because:
A. He's going to die more easily which means i'm likely to get a kill mail (the average eve player is only looking for kill mails) and
B. If for whatever reason he decides i'm the softer target and teams up against me, i'm now in even more trouble in the fight.
We have to look at all 3 parties point of view.
Guy under attack: well i can tank this guy alright, so it may be a close fight.
First attacker: I've got enough to take this guy out, but it might be a close fight.
Second attacker (unaffiliated): I can either help the guy under attack, kill (first attacker) and then kill (guy under attack), or kill (guy under attack) and then kill (first attacker)
The guy under attack and the first attacker also have to make similar threat calculations as the new target and if they need to re-prioritize to optimize the outcome of the fight.
**Edit:
I want to add to this and reference a bit of lore as well.
The standard rats you usually fight (non-capsuleers) consider going after even a half trained capsuleer as pretty much suicidal. You think they won't revel in the fact that they wasted a capsuleer ship that intruded in their sites? For whoever manages to survive (either because they won, or they killed a capsuleer before going down and making it to an escape pod) they would likely run into a heros welcome on their return for their killing of a capsuleer. So from that perspective it makes even more sense that they'd go after the softer target (as well as bigger threat) that is an ewar vessel. |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
Crimeo - thanks for keeping me on my own thread and clarifying my own thoughts. The rats certainly need to go back to college for a while.
Tommassino - I have checked out the legion - most posts suggest a cov-op legion is a very expensive fail compared to a well fitted Pilgrim.
Further thought - if im caught in a gate camp and use my neuts in defence, are the gate guns going to join in with the 30 fat guys to char my roasted remains? Theoretical question of course.
|
Nnamuachs
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:41:00 -
[43] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:Further thought - if im caught in a gate camp and use my neuts in defence, are the gate guns going to join in with the 30 fat guys to char my roasted remains? Theoretical question of course.
Once you've been aggressed you can freely defend yourself against the aggressors without drawing the gate guns (unless you decide to attack someone who has not aggressed you yet). However as far as i'm aware, gate guns still work on the old cycling algorithm and not any sort of smart target acquisition. |
Seranova Farreach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
OP is Overheating his Butthurt modual.. its about to burn out with no nanite repair paste :P |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
93
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:21:00 -
[45] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:
Also this is how wh's have worked for years as I understand it. Need guidance on how to gank a ship in the middle of pve with aggro shifting NPC's ask them how they have been doing it for years.
Yes, it is the way Sleepers in W space complexes behave and we take down the people running those 'plexes using superior numbers and logistics. We even PVE in PVP fit ships just in case someone tries to gank us 
Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate... |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
Seranova - i guess that your heroic 10 man pod kill for 0.0100 or the recent shared 52 man T3 kill means we live in different parts of Eve, but surely you can see that the opportunity for a solo T3 kill for 32.4905 points is worth me making a bit of noise about ?
Anyways,
ive been told that the the AI change were 'player requested' (post 10) Explorers, ratters and mission runners were getting hit 'at both ends' and so CCP have made it easier to encourage these people into lower security.
Perhaps this is just me being thick but wouldn't the following have worked even better and with less fall out
1 . All explorers, site and mission runners to watch local and get out if not sure
2. Make CCP really happy and team up with another player riding shotgun through the site - ie team play
Why change the whole mechanic and screw people like me who never complained about getting jumped, ganked and gate camped before?
Answer me GOD !!! |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Thanks Nnamuachs. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
292
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 17:18:00 -
[48] - Quote
More problems from local's free intel....
Local needs to die
Then you can wait for the rats to die and kill the missioner, without worrying he'll get scared and run off when he sees you in local.
As far as the rats... you need a pretty advanced ai to be able to tell if that 2nd ship that showed up is there to help the ship they are aggroing, or hurt them.
Even if you show up to kill their target, they still consider you hostile.
So, they want both of you dead...
In that case, the proper thing for the rats to do, is to disengage, and then attack the winner. Of course, this would take pretty advanced ai, and it gives you essentially the same effect as waiting for the drake to clear the site, and then attack... actually, that would be easier for you, as you won't have potentially scramming rats coming after you as soon as you are victorious. |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 17:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
Hi Verity - yes, people can get scared and run but its a question of timing and safe spots. I usually have sites marked in several systems and have spots pre- marked within the sites or belts - if you cruise in and out enough and get the timing right you can get to target within 20 - 30 secs of appearing in local. Timing it to avoid rats is going to be a 'problem' :-(
The AI is complex - perhaps they could just make it a mechanic in null sec but soften it or remove it in Lo sec.
Hopefully the Devs do read these pages. |
Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs
Zulu People
74
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
Nnamuachs wrote:Crimeo Khamsi wrote:Quote:I think the point was that he was accustomed to using the rats dps to his advantage when hunting: Pop in on the Ratter while he's engaged and taking damage, point and web him so he can't get away, Neut his cap and watch him die. It doesn't work for him anymore, so now he has a problem with the new AI. That's just it. It's supposed to be a new AI. Artificial INTELLIGENCE. Not artificial suicidal stupidity engine. Attacking the pilgrim in that case is flat out, straight up the absolute wrong decision for a pirate. The thread is aptly titled, and this is indeed a problem with the new NPC coding. Whether it be minor or a side effect or whatever, it is a problem *shrug* I'm curious why this is the wrong decision. Arguably players are (supposed to be) intelligent, and in the normal progress of events, players want kills. If I'm shooting a hard target (with little threat based on capabilities) and a softer (more valuable/bigger threat) target shows up. I'm likely to pop him first, because: A. He's going to die more easily which means i'm likely to get a kill mail (the average eve player is only looking for kill mails) and B. If for whatever reason he decides i'm the softer target and teams up against me, i'm now in even more trouble in the fight. We have to look at all 3 parties point of view.
No, rats don't just want kills for the sake of kills. YOU might want that as a capsuleer, but that's because you're immortal. A rat only has one life to lose, and the rat's number one priority should be to protect that life. Their number TWO priority is to make money (which does not necessarily mean hitting soft targets, if they are poor soft targets).
They may or may not be brave enough to stand their groud even in the face of certain death. That's an issue of culture, and the culture of rats is not my decision. However, they would still always make choices in such a way that their chances of living through the day were maximized, even if they are brave. And the clear and obvious choice would be to fight the drake if they wanted to stay alive.
Drake is the only one doing them damage, AND it is the tougher target, AND it is weakened and killable, AND the other target will present no clear and present threat after the drake is dead. Every single strategic detail points to attacking the drake if they wish to stay alive.
Plus, attacking the drake also gives them the most chance of plunder, their secondary goal. It will almost certainly die, and then the pirates have a narrow window of opportunity to attack the pilgrim and attempt to wipe it out before it steals the loot.
If you want smarter AI, then any of the following things would be much smarter changes on the part of the AI than what happened here:
1) Running away sometimes
2) If a major ship is about to die, rats should swoop in and try to pick up the loot first, and they should be coded so that they do in fact transfer loot to their holds if they can get there first.
3) If a ship is about to die, like the drake, then some of the pirates could disengage early (however many are not needed to imminently finish it off) and begin attacking new targets or run for the loot.
etc.
But fighting the guy who is helping you is most definitely not one that list. |
Jalabaster
Lycosa Syndicate
Surely You're Joking
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 22:25:00 -
[51] - Quote
What's to say the tougher target should be the primary? In fact, that goes against conventional stategy. A reasonable person would isolate the tougher target by first eliminating weaker targets that can support it.
So let's say i'm in a fleet fight. ..and my FC starts calling out targets. There's three loki's, two tengus, a drake, and a pilgrim. all hostile.
The FC of course calls out the pilgrim first cuz it's pretty squishy. So why wouldn't improved AI do the same?
"when a ship is blown up, the pilot usually winds up replacing it. This drives the economy, steadies inflation, and gives industrialists a reason to manufacture. In contrast, creating isk while never losing any items has the unfortunate reverse effect on the market, plus it isn't really any fun." Jala |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
66
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 16:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
No matter what, there is a change to AI, doubtful this will ever get changed back.
What's true is that it has effected a small community of players such as the Op that enjoyed a specific game play experience.
This game play experience no longer exists.
It was fun and some people enjoyed it, no matter of how people feel it isnt "proper PVP".
I respect the Ops statement and feelings.
My life and enjoyment from Eve are/were very similar.
Not anymore though.
The changes introduced do not work on thier own. It has balanced the game in favour of the PVE'r.
The NPC AI needs additional development and other changes need to be introduced which rebalances the game.
Perhaps local removal is the answer.
I read about Intel tools being changed for the game that Eve is now or is slowly becoming to be better suited to use in these types of game experiences within CSM minutes some time ago.
What is true is that the Solo experience concerning PVP did exist in some forms before Retribution.
With the AI changes most have now gone.
There is no such thing as a fair fight in Eve.
It is a shame that some aspects of enjoyable game play have been removed but at the same time you need to relaise that you/I are the minority. Solo players will not ever have a say in regards to what changes will or wont be introduced in Eve and we will always have to roll with the punches.
I wish you luck dude and I hope you find ways to work with the changes or something new to fill the void.
Good luck. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
294
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 16:07:00 -
[53] - Quote
If rats attack your ship they are clearly atatcking the "wrong" ship. It's surely a bug, or a mistake/missunderstanding from rats officers.
|
Radhe Amatin
Caldari High Prime
P R I M E
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 17:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:Ignoring a couple of Trolls the point of this post was to voice my concerns about the new AI and give feedback to the Devs
The feedback so far suggests that
CCP changed AI in as a response in part to player requests for easier ratting , exploring and mission running in null sec
This to encourage more people into null sec
The new AI hates neuts/tracking disruption / EWAR in general and will prioritise and attack a ship using it
The new AI changes will not make any difference to a new pilot in null who relies on those bonused modules for defence - the rats will still hit him ( If the aggressor foolishly uses a neut nos or disrupter then the AI may have to divide its attention ? )
I think this is getting clearer to me
My request to any Devs who may have read this far is to review how much hatred these AI s have for the modules discussed.
In my particular corner of eve it feels very harsh
Taking 52%rat damage whilst trying to nibble an uber tanked Drake to death just seemed overkill with the new mechanics.
Not a whine. Just a 'wow'. Is that what they meant to happen ?
Ill get back in my pilgrim now and sharpen my knife
Thanks for the on topic feedback from the intelligent good looking pilots in here !
Zen Dad
so i think this is the third whining AI post today.
So basically what ur saying is that a pilgrim without the help from rats dps can`t take a drake down...omg what a big surprise... guess what recon ships where not meant to take on battle cruises.
get another ship and try again...and get a friend to....stop being lazy and adapt.
The new Ai targets and kills my drone u know....but i didn't go crying on the forum...i had to adapt and change my tactics and fittings to counter this.
|
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
227
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 18:03:00 -
[55] - Quote
wait cloaked for the drake to clear the area, kill him then? |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Unclaimed.
1335
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 18:06:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:wait cloaked for the drake to clear the area, kill him then?
While a practical approach, it requires a ship capable of beating the drake.
The implied tactics used here are for ships not capable of this, but needing to rely on the rats unintended help for a kill.
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata)
Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 18:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
I'm going to tell you what your kind of people usually love to tell to the rest of us: Adapt or rage quit.
Also, can i have your stuff? |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
66
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 19:03:00 -
[58] - Quote
I chose to rage quit although I have 25bil in liquid assets but no idea what to do with it...
Perhaps I could try giving it away in Jita local.... |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
227
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 16:19:00 -
[59] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:wait cloaked for the drake to clear the area, kill him then? While a practical approach, it requires a ship capable of beating the drake. The implied tactics used here are for ships not capable of this, but needing to rely on the rats unintended help for a kill.
... wont a pilgrim neut a drake to the point a drake tank just becomes paper? also drones on a pilgrim do quite some nasty damage. and he can choose to go for the 25% resistance on EM of the drake shields. since he can choose damage type.
it was a failure at tactics basically. or a failed attempt at getting the npcs do the dirty job. |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
66
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 14:52:00 -
[60] - Quote
Well this is one of at least 3 topics on the same subject.
I'm willing to bet most won't come here and complain, probably just quit the game they used to love rather than be trolled by a bunch of carebears.
Here's hoping that CCP is paying attention. |
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