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Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
0
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Posted - 2012.12.25 09:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
My petition was directed here by a Dev. Hope its 'on topic'.
I fly the U boat of Eve the Pilgrim
Just after retribution i tackled a Drake ( it can be done!) in a lo sec radar.
The shock of a sudden de-cloak and the rat damage assists me greatly against superior ships.
However my pilgrim just blew up in record time while i was still trying to launch my hornets to break lock.
I took 48% damage from the the Drake and 52% from the Rats that were initially aggressing the drake
The rats switched aggression to the 'weaker' ship attacking the mighty Drake
Why ? And will this always be so.?
I don't want to risk another ship to test the mechanics.
Essentially my entire game style developed over 2 years is at risk
Any helpful comments and suggestions appreciated
And Merry Christmas to all pilots , docked and in space . |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
375
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 09:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
new AI really hates ships with nos/neuts, tackle and forms of ewar. In short, a Pilgrim/Curse is fcked. Adapt, change your fit and be more careful about what you attack. Note that all of a sudden the shoe is on the other foot because if your MO has been to kill stuff that's busy tanking NPCs (meaning your killmails looked like your current loss mail but the other way round) there's some poetic justice in it :P
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything. |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
0
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Posted - 2012.12.25 14:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thats not poetic justice - more a badly written Limerick. Cant disagree about change and adapt but the cloak and a few rats were a very small advantage against bigger ships or more experienced players. Changing fit is not an answer - if your ship is given bonuses you use them.
When you don't fleet, gate camp or roam in packs (holding hands) and are prepared to be incredibly patient and stealthy ,its not a lot to ask that the rats don't blow the least well tanked ship up in seconds .
I got out of hi sec. I got out of my safety zone and i got into solo PVP so i feel thats a positive contribution to the game. I don't have a lot of spare time and as a mature player with a RL business to run i certainly don't want to spend hours employed by a teenager mining veldspar for a corporation ! I do enjoy informal Blue relations with 'locals' and can appreciate the wider social aspect of this game But solo Pilgrim WAS my entire game and it was very absorbing and great fun
But as you say they have fxxxxxed my game. The sub is no big deal in cash - the gesture of cancelling it may be futile- but its a real pisser. Its only a game, but i have my style and I've given up RL leisure time developing it. To have it casually written off doesn't make me want to train more skills. I actually feel like a mug whose purpose is to keep some Icelanders in comfortable employment
VILNIUS
"They came after the Hulks , and i did not speak up,
They came after drone boats ,and i did not speak up
Then they came after the Pilgrims and i still did not speak up
And then one day they came for me , and there was no one left to speak for me ...."
Regards
Zen
|
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
1897
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 15:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:Thats not poetic justice - More bitter stuff
Nah, that's poetic justice as dished out by a 6 handed goddess giving you a karma slap. Because watching fail solo pvpers dying at the hands of rats is a positive contribution to the game.
Upgrade to t3s + some broskies.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
173
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 16:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
For what reason do you think that rats should not attack you when you uncloak next to them? |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Relativity Alliance
839
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 17:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Meditril wrote:For what reason do you think that rats should not attack you when you uncloak next to them?
Think about it from the perspective of the Rats.
They are fighting a hostile presence. Suddenly a new threat decloaks nearby.
Clearly they cannot risk the new vessel gaining the upper hand. It represents a threat to them, boasting by it's presence it may be intending to kill all others present and loot all.
The rat's AI was already fighting one threat, anything confident enough to join a three way fight either plans to take their kill, or kill everyone.
TL / DR : The new guy represents a greater threat to the AI, in short.
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata)
Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
251
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 21:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:
The rats switched aggression to the 'weaker' ship attacking the mighty Drake
[b]
I am confused as to why you think your T2 cruiser is weaker than a T1 BC. Your tactics are old and you require a new fit or tactics. Relying on NPC dps to kill your target while you hold tackle is a little lame TBH
Seems to me that all is "working as intended" |
Nalha Saldana
Syneptics Inc.
AL3XAND3R.
378
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 21:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
The new AI is a good idea but its so broken in many ways that there is never a reliable way to know where aggro is going. I really hate it and hope they work hard on making it better.
Sure the rats should hate ewar that affects them but they are immune to cap warfare and really shouldnt care about it! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
1249
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 22:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
I will admit... I had completely forgotten about the Pilgrim in the midst all the new changes.
Spugg Galdon wrote:I am confused as to why you think your T2 cruiser is weaker than a T1 BC.
Because the only advantages a HAC has over a battlecruiser is speed and size. Battlecruisers simply possess more tank, fitting options, and firepower for a quarter of the price.
Hell... some Tech 1 cruisers are almost, if not just, AS GOOD as their Tech 2 variants (e.g. Thorax and Deimos, Vexor and Ishtar, Moa and Eagle, Caracal and Cerberus).
Quote:Your tactics are old and you require a new fit or tactics
Relying on NPC dps to kill your target while you hold tackle is a little lame TBH
Unfortunately, there is not much leeway in terms of tactics when it comes to certain Tech 2 ships... Recons in particular as they are generally "one-trick ponies" due to their specialization (that's the trade-off with Tech 2 ships... gain a great ability at the cost of flexibility).
The Pilgrim is only bonused for Ewar (Energy Neutralizers and Tracking Disruptors) and drones... both of which irritate the "new" NPCs.
The ship has 3 turret slots... but because of it's super tight CPU and PG you will have to give up Ewar, tank, or both to fit any weapons that will do any appreciable damage on their own. But in giving up the Ewar, you will need more tank because you will not be able to outlast anything even in the same class... let alone anything bigger.
No... the Pilgrim is specialized in grabbing people in compromising situations and bleeding them over time. Nothing direct. It can't "uncloak, stomp, and run." That's what a cloaky Proteus can do.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
45
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 23:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
this change was actually player requested.
Why don't people go to low/0.0 exploring? 1 valid reason given was because under the old scheme it was easy kills for the attacker. rats on the pve runner, in comes the pvp'er(s)...and its a nice 3 way getting double stuffed from both ends since the rats jsut kept the aggro on the runner. Have me a few km's I shared with rats, system did work nice. Didn't need to be optimal dps fit.....you could point/scram, chip paint worst case and let the rat's be your added dps for the kill.
So this is working as intended most likely, attacker who jumps a pve boat in say a 8/10 better be able to handle the 8/10 themselves.
Does it suck for attackers now....yes and no. Yeah your kills are harder. But especially in low sec which often whines about no targets this may get a few new faces out there.
Also this is how wh's have worked for years as I understand it. Need guidance on how to gank a ship in the middle of pve with aggro shifting NPC's ask them how they have been doing it for years.
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Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
1
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Posted - 2012.12.25 23:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zan Shiro - i see that, but as an 'explorer gone bad' I also have a background in low sec exploration. if someone appears in local and im taking rats in a site I just warp to my safe at about 170 and see what happens. i never stay in the actual site if I dont like the look of the new ship. Sometimes the site despawns but most of the time i warp back in and continue exploring.
Why were lazy or scared explorers allowed to influence the game mechanics?
Watch local and get out - don't ask for the naughty rats to go away.
i've been jumped a few times but I still explore and jump murdering people who get into 'my sites'
it wasn't broken but they fixed it.
if you want my reason for not going to nullsec to explore, its the presence of 30 fat guys drinking beer laughing into their microphones whilst my expensive recon dies in another bubbled gate..... sort that out CCP if you dare.... |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate
Sailors of the Sacred Spice
452
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Posted - 2012.12.26 00:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Have you considered going after pvp fit ships in the clear, as opposed to depend on rats to dps noob carebears in pve drakes at mission sites?
Standings Improvement Service
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
45
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Posted - 2012.12.26 01:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:Why were lazy or scared explorers allowed to influence the game mechanics?
same question could be asked as to why unprobable was removed from the game because of pvp'ers.
When in place unprobable had more people out and about out of empire. Pvp'ers didn't like that they could not be found easily (there were ways to catch them). So it was changed. Because pvp'ers were too lazy to replace combat probes to scan out pve sites in the system. Can't find the person carebearing, find out where they are carebearing at being the intent.
Saw this method work a few times...our prober could not find the neut in system. So he scanned out sites and stuff. Bit of leg work to cruise sites but a few times ole boy was too greedy, thought he was safe due to unprobable and didn't want his ship anymore.
Basically there will never be a happy medium here. Pvp'ers wants targets. Not everyone wants to be a target. I see your issues....but I see the issue of making it more viable to run pve out of empire to spice up eve.
Well that I jsut don't see ccp coding ai to make all happy. I commend you on being a fan of soloing apparently. But we know in a group mindset NPC AI is doing what the bulk of many grouped players do....kill the easy ships first. Basic example would be like.....
a cane, a rapier, and a drake walk into a bar. Drake most likely will be the top pita to kill based on tank. So it dies last. Then it jsut breaks down seeing who is easier to kill. If Rapier in range it be a good 1st choice.
You jumped a drake in a recon, human or AI that recon is the best candidate to drop first. Higher value KM for starters and well.... the other ship is a drake. The damage output of a solo drake even pre-nerf was not impressive, it firing missiles 30 seconds longer not end of the world tbh (I flew drakes pre-train, canes and harbs were always targetted first most times I flew with them). |
Mars Theran
Pod Kings
1361
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 08:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend;" or maybe not.  Yeah, expect this. Drones don't care what side you're on. By drones, I mean AI Rats.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
1
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Posted - 2012.12.26 09:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ignoring a couple of Trolls the point of this post was to voice my concerns about the new AI and give feedback to the Devs
The feedback so far suggests that
CCP changed AI in as a response in part to player requests for easier ratting , exploring and mission running in null sec
This to encourage more people into null sec
The new AI hates neuts/tracking disruption / EWAR in general and will prioritise and attack a ship using it
The new AI changes will not make any difference to a new pilot in null who relies on those bonused modules for defence - the rats will still hit him ( If the aggressor foolishly uses a neut nos or disrupter then the AI may have to divide its attention ? )
I think this is getting clearer to me
My request to any Devs who may have read this far is to review how much hatred these AI s have for the modules discussed.
In my particular corner of eve it feels very harsh
Taking 52%rat damage whilst trying to nibble an uber tanked Drake to death just seemed overkill with the new mechanics.
Not a whine. Just a 'wow'. Is that what they meant to happen ?
Ill get back in my pilgrim now and sharpen my knife
Thanks for the on topic feedback from the intelligent good looking pilots in here !
Zen Dad
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1281
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 09:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
If i would be a NPC shooting drakes all day I would switch to the pilgrim too
a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Oshun Stranje
Aenos Phlegomenos
5
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Posted - 2012.12.26 15:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:In my particular corner of eve it feels very harsh
Taking 52%rat damage whilst trying to nibble an uber tanked Drake to death just seemed overkill with the new mechanics.
Not a whine. Just a 'wow'. Is that what they meant to happen ?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Basically rats react to ewar the same way a fleet would, by primarying the source of the ewar. They don't care if you're trying to help them, just like lowsec/nullsec blob won't care if you're trying to assist them. In EVE it's not who you're shooting but how much of a potential threat you are, and ewar of any sort makes you a priority over the guy in the drake who is just spamming missiles. |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
1
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Posted - 2012.12.26 15:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Oshun - thanks for the reply - this is a bad dream for me after so much training and expectation - but I appreciate your clear explanaiton (I still hope CCP think of the poor little Pilgrim pilots when they come to review - :-)
P.s. Spamming missiles and enjoying that crazy tank!
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Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
56
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 15:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
I have no problem with this change as long as CCP makes rats point as well.
Because of local it has always been hard to catch site runners. Now because of the new mechanics it's hard to hold them even if you catch them.
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Maria Blick
skeltari Corp
4
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Posted - 2012.12.26 16:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zen Dad, the 'new' AI really isn't new at all. It's the sleeper AI. It's been around for years, and players have been successfully hunting ratting ships in wormholes for years.
However, as other players have said, sleeper AI deems ewar a bigger threat than dps. Sleeper ai just counts the number of active modules. So if you are neuting your target, the ai still counts that against you, making you a bigger threat and switching all dps to you. |
Kristof Atruin
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 16:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Why not start acting more like a uboat? Stalk the target in the site until he's about to kill the last rat, then tackle him. You'll have to find a target dumb enough to not pay attention to local, but I think that would be more satisfying. More like hunting than picking up road kill. |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
2
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Posted - 2012.12.26 17:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Maria - Wasn't aware of that. Tactical change needed and advice from solo wormhole pilots - if such a person exists. Thanks.
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Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
2
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Posted - 2012.12.26 17:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kristof - that is in fact what I will be doing in future. Doesn't help against the harder T3s though , which were just getting 'doable' for me with the extra DPS provided by the Rats... i was just getting ready to follow some toughter ships into their missions but i will put that on hold.! Is buying the best modules outside the game a bad thing? i might be 60 before I can afford the kit i need to kill these ships....!
Thanks for your post.
Zen Dad
|
David Zahavi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2012.12.26 17:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:
Taking 52%rat damage whilst trying to nibble an uber tanked Drake to death just seemed overkill with the new mechanics.
Not a whine. Just a 'wow'. Is that what they meant to happen ?
Zen Dad
I sure hope its what is meant to happen. If you are the easiest to primary target, it makes sense that the rats should primary you EVERY TIME.
If you really want to go into these sites to gank someone, then fly a ship capable of doing the job, not relying on the npcs to do it for you. If your current ship isn't suited, sounds like you are just terrible at adapting, being creative, or thinking for yourself, and maybe you should just quit now... CAN I HAZ UR STUFF?
Don't be bad. And please continue feeding us your tears.
|
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade
The East India Co.
595
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 18:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:The new AI is a good idea but its so broken in many ways that there is never a reliable way to know where aggro is going.
It's meant to be less predictable. The fact that it's hard to predict makes it sound to me as if it's working as intended.
Bumping, leave it alone. |
Vin Ott
Zero Fun Allowed
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 18:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
lol died to ratting drake and rats, elite pvp |
Denidil
Turalyon Plus
541
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 18:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
your stuff. you may contract it to me at any highsec station. thank you.
Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design. |
Judas Lonestar
Wormbro
Ocularis Inferno
14
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Posted - 2012.12.26 19:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Since you cant seem to think out of the box let me help you adapt old man.
Wait till the Drake kills the rats, THEN jump him.
You are welcome. |
Mortis Betruger
ROFLSTOMPERS
Gank for Profit
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 20:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:My petition was directed here by a Dev. Hope its 'on topic'.
I fly the U boat of Eve the Pilgrim
Just after retribution i tackled a Drake ( it can be done!) in a lo sec radar.
The shock of a sudden de-cloak and the rat damage assists me greatly against superior ships.
However my pilgrim just blew up in record time while i was still trying to launch my hornets to break lock.
I took 48% damage from the the Drake and 52% from the Rats that were initially aggressing the drake
The rats switched aggression to the 'weaker' ship attacking the mighty Drake
Why ? And will this always be so.?
I don't want to risk another ship to test the mechanics.
Essentially my entire game style developed over 2 years is at risk
Any helpful comments and suggestions appreciated
And Merry Christmas to all pilots , docked and in space .
This thread was linked in are Alliance chat. Best laugh I have had in a long time. LOL LOL LOL  |
Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
60
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 21:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Kristof Atruin wrote:Why not start acting more like a uboat? Stalk the target in the site until he's about to kill the last rat, then tackle him. You'll have to find a target dumb enough to not pay attention to local, but I think that would be more satisfying. More like hunting than picking up road kill.
Except because of local you have 15-30 seconds to catch someone before they warp off. |
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