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Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence

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Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance 839	Posted - 2012.12.25 16:56:00 - [1] - Quote All details being considered and weighted... It seems the answer to AFK Cloaking's terror aspect is to ignore it while they are cloaked. (A cloaked vessel not being capable of inflicting damage directly) As it is not currently possible to evaluate threat levels properly under the current system, I suggest we upgrade local to exclude vessels which are not capable of interacting with ships and objects directly. For balance, I would deny these classifications from accessing local at all. Let them be sent chat information in a version of local missing the pilot roster, no free intel for them. (Fully delayed local for all pilots present but not listed) The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described: Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading) Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading) Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading) Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
GTN BALKAN EXPRESS 26	Posted - 2012.12.25 17:00:00 - [2] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: the answer to AFK Cloaking There is the problem, not understanding how the game should work.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance 839	Posted - 2012.12.25 17:03:00 - [3] - Quote GTN wrote: Nikk Narrel wrote: the answer to AFK Cloaking There is the problem, not understanding how the game should work. Absolutely. A passive activity misleading active players needs to be addressed to restore game playability. If someone is cloaking and active, and still wants to inspire terror, they should need to be more proactive in communicating the level of threat they are claiming. Entering into chat that they are present, and possibly watching player X, makes things more interesting for all, I believe. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Mary Annabelle Moonlit Bonsai 88	Posted - 2012.12.25 19:06:00 - [4] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: All details being considered and weighted... It seems the answer to AFK Cloaking's terror aspect is to ignore it while they are cloaked. (A cloaked vessel not being capable of inflicting damage directly) As it is not currently possible to evaluate threat levels properly under the current system, I suggest we upgrade local to exclude vessels which are not capable of interacting with ships and objects directly. For balance, I would deny these classifications from accessing local at all. Let them be sent chat information in a version of local missing the pilot roster, no free intel for them. (Fully delayed local for all pilots present but not listed) The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described: Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading) Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading) Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading) Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present. This would eliminate AFK Cloaking. The fact you cannot see a cloaked vessel in local removes any means for them to terrorize local pilots, by intent or otherwise. It also is an enhancement to local, making it obvious who is actually active in system by the list of locatable ships being the sole members of the chat list. Since you could not see cloaked ships anymore in local, it also removes the objections I heard to being able to hunt them.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance 842	Posted - 2012.12.25 22:14:00 - [5] - Quote Mary Annabelle wrote: Since you could not see cloaked ships anymore in local, it also removes the objections I heard to being able to hunt them. This is effectively true. So long as information locating cloaked vessels inside the system is not given out for free. Cloaking, at least the process leading up to the ship itself being cloaked, requires effort along with the right skills and hardware. Balance requires comparable efforts to counter a tactic or effect. They either need to make a blind assumption and look for a cloaked vessel based on faith, or deduce it being present by clues and details. Either way, they need a reason to hunt for a cloaked ship. This meets the popular level of requirements often referred to for justifying the ability to hunt cloaked vessels. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
TheGunslinger42 Bite Me inc Bitten. 716	Posted - 2012.12.26 14:09:00 - [6] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: All details being considered and weighted... It seems the answer to AFK Cloaking's terror aspect is to ignore it while they are cloaked. (A cloaked vessel not being capable of inflicting damage directly) As it is not currently possible to evaluate threat levels properly under the current system, I suggest we upgrade local to exclude vessels which are not capable of interacting with ships and objects directly. For balance, I would deny these classifications from accessing local at all. Let them be sent chat information in a version of local missing the pilot roster, no free intel for them. (Fully delayed local for all pilots present but not listed) The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described: Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading) Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading) Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading) Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present. The entire problem is that local already provides TOO MUCH intel. Nullbears disgust me, honestly worse than highsec carebears - at least they admit they're risk averse and play accordingly (i.e. in highsec)
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance 849	Posted - 2012.12.26 14:45:00 - [7] - Quote TheGunslinger42 wrote: The entire problem is that local already provides TOO MUCH intel. Nullbears disgust me, honestly worse than highsec carebears - at least they admit they're risk averse and play accordingly (i.e. in highsec) You are correct. But, if we get it to provide less intel, we solve two problems. Null bears are bound and determined to use Local Chat as a source of intel. Regardless of how this lowers the bar on some aspects of gameplay, they have grown attached to this. By eliminating items that confused them, they get the benefit of only needing to be aware of things they can affect, that can also affect them. By curious twist, being visible in local chat is also what haunts people who are AFK, and wish to be ignored. With the exception of AFK Cloaking specifically, none of these want to advertise their presence. If local is being used for intel, then let's include the proper limits for the benefit of gameplay. Noone sees cloaked ships = noone feels threatened by cloaked ships. Cloaked vessels can still deliberately broadcast threatening messages in local, but they won't be mistaken for AFK either. Same goes for people docked in an outpost, or lurking behind the shields of a POS.... no local for them to respond to, and they are out of touch to intel the same as they are out of touch to interacting via PvP. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Morgan North The Wild Bunch Electus Matari 95	Posted - 2012.12.26 15:54:00 - [8] - Quote To be honest, I think that Cloaking should simply do the following: - When activating cloak, Local is turned off. You retain visibility of whats on Grid. - When cloak is not active, Local is turned back on. It is sensible that when you're activly using communications, you're visible, afterall your signals may be read, especially in near empty systems. Thats about it really. Would solve 99% of the problems with "AFK" cloaking, and would allow Cloakers to be hunters if they sit at a beacon, cloak up and just wait.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance 849	Posted - 2012.12.26 16:20:00 - [9] - Quote Morgan North wrote: To be honest, I think that Cloaking should simply do the following: - When activating cloak, Local is turned off. You retain visibility of whats on Grid. - When cloak is not active, Local is turned back on. It is sensible that when you're activly using communications, you're visible, afterall your signals may be read, especially in near empty systems. Thats about it really. Would solve 99% of the problems with "AFK" cloaking, and would allow Cloakers to be hunters if they sit at a beacon, cloak up and just wait. With the exception of one detail, you are suggesting pretty much the same as I am regarding cloaked vessels. That detail being local's total removal. I am advocating for it to be shifted to total delayed mode for cloaked vessels, with no pilot roster at all visible to them. They can be able to read chat comments, and post their own, but they will never see the roster so valued by those wanting it for it's intel capacity. I am also advocating for vessels inside the shields of a POS or docked in an outpost to also be treated this way. Their is no reason they should enjoy immunity to PvP as well as this free intel with no risk. To place a point on that detail, if you can see local chat's pilot roster, you can also be shot at by other pilots. Whether they follow this up or not is secondary to the fact it is possible for them to shoot, and be shot in return. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance 854	Posted - 2012.12.27 14:47:00 - [10] - Quote Hey, null bears, you might want to seriously consider backing this idea. Sure, the cloaked pilot becomes truly hidden. BUT! The moment he drops his cloak, you get your precious warning, and at a point where you will KNOW it has value. And, as pointed out, if you want to be proactive, this does meet the popular terms often agreed on to permit some means of hunting cloaked vessels. You can search the system you prefer as often as you like. It is in YOUR hands how safe you should be. How often should your defensive patrols be sent out? Null is as safe as your efforts make it. If you did not accept the need for any effort, high sec may be where you fit in better. Think it over... Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.

Michael Loney Skullspace Industries 43	Posted - 2012.12.27 16:49:00 - [11] - Quote I like this idea, +1 all around. The point of cloaking is not to be hidden, it is to never be seen. ( Yes there is a difference )
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 292	Posted - 2012.12.27 16:57:00 - [12] - Quote +1 for any idea that addresses local, the root of the problem, and not AFK cloaking, a symptom of the problem
Yelena Fedorova 26	Posted - 2012.12.28 20:45:00 - [13] - Quote Needs more +1's RAWR!
Ines Tegator Towels R Us 184	Posted - 2012.12.28 21:20:00 - [14] - Quote Good basic idea. Simple and effective. Not sure about excluding players that are docked or in a pos. Pos pilots can still operate guns, and docked pilots can... well, I guess they can undock :P They should show up on the guest list still at least.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance 940	Posted - 2012.12.28 22:00:00 - [15] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: Good basic idea. Simple and effective. Not sure about excluding players that are docked or in a pos. Pos pilots can still operate guns, and docked pilots can... well, I guess they can undock :P They should show up on the guest list still at least. If you are close enough to a POS to be affected by any guns, I doubt you need local pointing out the obvious. As to undocking, well then, they would appear then, the same as someone logging in Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1174	Posted - 2013.01.30 18:32:00 - [16] - Quote Yelena Fedorova wrote: Needs more +1's RAWR! Agreed! Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13879	Posted - 2013.01.30 19:18:00 - [17] - Quote Missed this. +1 Vote for Malcanis CSM8
RoAnnon Strategic Acquisitions Group Tactical Research Lab 50	Posted - 2013.01.30 20:05:00 - [18] - Quote I don't see the need or full justification for eliminating docked pilots from local. For one, anyone in a station has access to even stronger comms systems than in a ship, and two, it's too easy to simply dock and see who's in station. I see no real point to remove them from local. Beyond that one sticking point, I back this 100%. +1
Gypsio III Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 511	Posted - 2013.01.30 20:07:00 - [19] - Quote Your idea about letting any pilot anywhere join any local chat channel was better.
Jessica Danikov Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District 63	Posted - 2013.01.30 20:10:00 - [20] - Quote Oh, man, I'm so going to take up cloaky ganking now... Targets won't see me in local until I decloak on grid with them and slap a disruptor on them? Utterly brilliant. Having to chase them around the system is so much work. Not to mention, how can any defensive fleet ever find me, if they can't see me? I could cloaky cyno in a gang of my friends without anyone having any warning whatsoever and gank even moderate fleets who have no chance of ever having a shred of intel on what's coming. Ever. Admittedly, this may empty nullsec as people decide that there's no point risking anything given the impunity with which they can be attacked. The only people that will be left will be big alliances that have the acitivty to fly in permanent, large gangs that can fend off such attacks, but that's the way nullsec's been going for a while- nobody gives a crap about small gangs. They belong in hisec running incursions. Oh, and I'm sure people would whine about it to no end. Can't people adapt by always selecting the incredibly overpowered option rather than insisting that a game should be 'balanced'?

Jessica Danikov Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District 63	Posted - 2013.01.30 20:25:00 - [21] - Quote To clarify, that was sarcasm. I wish I could be more directly critical about this, but you are too emotionally attached to the idea to conceive of downsides, let alone the possibility that it's a terrible idea overall, so it's more fun to criticise in a mocking way and at least derive some entertainment from this thread. Pointing a gun at people may make them uncomfortable. Hiding the gun because people keep complaining that they're having a gun pointed at them and they can't do anything about it is not a solution at all.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1187	Posted - 2013.01.30 20:30:00 - [22] - Quote Jessica Danikov wrote: Oh, man, I'm so going to take up cloaky ganking now... Targets won't see me in local until I decloak on grid with them and slap a disruptor on them? Utterly brilliant. Having to chase them around the system is so much work. Not to mention, how can any defensive fleet ever find me, if they can't see me? I could cloaky cyno in a gang of my friends without anyone having any warning whatsoever and gank even moderate fleets who have no chance of ever having a shred of intel on what's coming. Ever. Admittedly, this may empty nullsec as people decide that there's no point risking anything given the impunity with which they can be attacked. The only people that will be left will be big alliances that have the acitivty to fly in permanent, large gangs that can fend off such attacks, but that's the way nullsec's been going for a while- nobody gives a crap about small gangs. They belong in hisec running incursions. Oh, and I'm sure people would whine about it to no end. Can't people adapt by always selecting the incredibly overpowered option rather than insisting that a game should be 'balanced'? I hit LIKE on your post. I appreciate you raising these points so I may address them better. 1. These targets, the ones who did not see you till you appeared on grid with them? Enjoy the kill mails, assuming it was not a set up designed to lure you. After all, they have an unknown number of ships cloaked too. One of the fundamentals is that detection of cloaked vessels is balanced without local exposing them for no effort. With the ability to clean the system of cloaked vessels, comes the responsibility for keeping it clean. 2. Finding you: that coffin has the nails in it from the first point. We can dismiss this concern as DoA for that reason. 3. Emptying null sec. Give me a moment to savor this talking point.... done. I don't think anyone will notice. After all, what is the difference between: A. Pilots who refuse to PvP, and stay hidden in POS's or outposts, or simply log off. B. Pilots who moved to high sec. Honestly, the ones who moved to high sec will possibly see more PvP than they did before moving. 4. Balance or the incredibly overpowered option? Well, Local Chat's ability to perfectly update the presence of all pilots has been described by many as being incredibly OP.... While, oddly enough, noone has ever lost a ship to a pilot who was AFK cloaking, so it becomes awkward trying to call that equally OP.... Admittedly, some are reported to have stopped being AFK at very inconvenient times. The pilots who chose, of their own free will, to venture forth may have suffered losses. My condolences, I hope the ship was insured. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 472	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:21:00 - [23] - Quote This really would be for the best. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 564	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:29:00 - [24] - Quote ive never put as many likes in a thread as i have this. Jessica Danikov wrote: Not to mention, how can any defensive fleet ever find me, if they can't see me? I could cloaky cyno in a gang of my friends without anyone having any warning whatsoever and gank even moderate fleets who have no chance of ever having a shred of intel on what's coming. Ever. cloaky fleets carry less combat power than comparable non-cloaky fleets. so its balanced. and if ur talking about blobbing enemy fleets with cloakies, how would that be any worse than blobbing them with the same number of non-cloakies? Jessica Danikov wrote: Admittedly, this may empty nullsec as people decide that there's no point risking anything given the impunity with which they can be attacked. The only people that will be left will be big alliances that have the acitivty to fly in permanent, large gangs that can fend off such attacks, but that's the way nullsec's been going for a while- nobody gives a crap about small gangs. They belong in hisec running incursions. didnt u just say ur gang would gank even moderate fleets? i'd say this empowers the smaller gangs that can prepare an ambush against the larger blobs without being obvious in local. and anyone who wants to roam in null isn't immediately obvious to the defending blobbers. Jessica Danikov wrote: Oh, and I'm sure people would whine about it to no end. Can't people adapt by always selecting the incredibly overpowered option rather than insisting that a game should be 'balanced'? they did, and it was called 'afk cloaking', the most popular PvP strategy in the world. never has so much love come from such a brilliant idea.
Fluffy Sheep Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 9	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:48:00 - [25] - Quote Quote: Cloaking, at least the process leading up to the ship itself being cloaked, requires effort along with the right skills and hardware. Electronics lvl 4 & cloaking lvl 1 for basic use of an item that can make you unscannable & therefore untouchable? Sure it may be in a near useless paper bag low tech frigate, but it may be in something else as well. There's no way to find out until they uncloak is there. Let there be cloaking, but don't let it be absolute as it is now. It should take some effort to stay hidden, just as it should take some effort to find someone hidden. As it is, There is little to no effort to stay hidden AFK or active and no way to find them if they are either of those two. How about CCP make mining barges 100% invulnerable and unbumpable except for when they are moving or entering warp? They can then do what they do afk or active and only have a chance of being vulnerable at a time and to whom they choose. A bit like cloaking results but a lot more training involved ;P
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13884	Posted - 2013.01.31 05:47:00 - [26] - Quote Fluffy Sheep wrote: Quote: Cloaking, at least the process leading up to the ship itself being cloaked, requires effort along with the right skills and hardware. Electronics lvl 4 & cloaking lvl 1 for basic use of an item that can make you unscannable & therefore untouchable? Sure it may be in a near useless paper bag low tech frigate, but it may be in something else as well. There's no way to find out until they uncloak is there. Let there be cloaking, but don't let it be absolute as it is now. It should take some effort to stay hidden, just as it should take some effort to find someone hidden. As it is, There is little to no effort to stay hidden AFK or active and no way to find them if they are either of those two. How about CCP make mining barges 100% invulnerable and unbumpable except for when they are moving or entering warp? They can then do what they do afk or active and only have a chance of being vulnerable at a time and to whom they choose. A bit like cloaking results but a lot more training & skill involved ;P No skill required at all for the basic use of an item, that can make you unscannable & therefore untouchable? Sure they may only have a newb ship, but it may be something else instead. there's no way to find out, until they undock. Let there be docking, but don't let it be absolute as it is now. It should take some effort to stay docked, just as it should take effort to undock someone. As it is, there is no effort at all in staying docked and hidden AFK or active and no way to know if they are AFK or active. How about CCP making mining barges 100% undockable and only able to mine trit. Etc. Etc. Etc. Vote for Malcanis CSM8
Caitlyn Tufy Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 155	Posted - 2013.01.31 06:40:00 - [27] - Quote This thread makes it seem like local is supposed to be an intel gathering tool. It's not - in fact, in an ideal situation, you'd only know a ship is there if you'd have sensors located throughout the system and a cloak would severely limit your ability to detect the ship using it. In a way, afk cloaking is desireable, because it ensures that you're not absolutely sure if the enemy is actually there. Personally, I'm more of a fan to the "space terrain" idea, where it would be possible to enter and live in a system undetected for a prolonged period of time, similar to how wormholes work, where actions left a sort of "information polution" that would eventually reveal them and where cloaked ships would be detectable using specialized equipment, since - as someone put it - you're never supposed to be completely safe undocked. However, I'm against nerfing cloaking without also limiting intel gathering in local, because the same argument holds for mission runners and miners - you should never feel completely safe undocked, using intel to bail or remove a perceived threat.
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 188	Posted - 2013.01.31 07:05:00 - [28] - Quote Boohoo whine post about my bots and Bears not being able to farm isk 24/7, cry cry cry. The only thing local needs is for it to be removed like in wh unless people wish to be visible in local channel via a transponder switch attachted to the new safety. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours?
TheSkeptic Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 105	Posted - 2013.01.31 09:01:00 - [29] - Quote +1 like the idea And pose this question: If a ship can be cloaked beside you and you don't even know it's on grid. Why should you know it's in system? ...
Jint Hikaru OffWorld Exploration Inc 441	Posted - 2013.01.31 10:07:00 - [30] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described: Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading) Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading) Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading) Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present. Nick, I really like your idea. Delayed local for the the above situations and any ship cloaked. Solves the problem of nullbears being too scared of an AFK cloaker. Denies the active cloaker from knowing if there is a whole bunch of people waiting in a station ready to undock and protect their mining buddies. He could go and visit (cloaked) any POSs to see if people were there, but he would have to activly fly to them to 'see' if people were there. (have to do something with DScan on POSs for this????) This has to be one of the best AFK cloaking ideas I have seen. Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.



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