only problem i can think of is getting the supercoalitions to agree on something.

There has been attempts to create trade hubs in null in the past.

i am no where near an economist, an industrialist or a carebear but my gut reaction to your proposal is that it is directly in opposition of the laws of supply and demand.


so to expect eve and its free market to collectively lower the supply in the areas of the highest demand causing prices to go through the roof and people not take advantage of that i think is nieve.

i do wish our markets were less centralized but i think thats just the way it works out

There are still some pretty good hubs in null and low. They just sell ships though.


I agree that it the free market will attempt to balance itself. Jita will continue to be stocked for a very long time, though if this were attempted the prices would be much higher. The question is whether or not nullsec demands industry enough to make it happen. Jita has kind of had a walmart effect on the rest of the trade hubs in the game. You know you can get everything there, and you know you can sell anything there, so you go there. The market forces in place there force you to sell at a certain price. My question is, if enough people with enough market share on enough items placed their stock in other places, would they grow? Would neighbors eventually trade materials along their borders in stations that allow neutral docking rights? Would we get more gudfites? I think all these things are possible if we took a concerted effort to move t2 production out of hisec. I live in curse, and i can't even find a supply of fernite carbide. I KNOW this **** can be produced here, and all around here, but not many even attempt to sell it.

If there were nowhere else to get your technitium, your ferrogel, your morphite besides low/null. would you wait for someone to move it to Jita? Would you buy it, and set up a courier contract? How would eve at large react to OMEC(Organization of Material Exporting Corporations) and marketgeddon?

i just think what you are asking requires a collective effort which could never be accomplished without outside forces at work (ccp forcing movement) especially since this is like balls to the wall free market so theres always gonna be SOMEONE wanting to take advantage of low supply high demand in hi sec

But since the whole game is blue right now in null

please tell me i'm not the only one that's bored of the same thread popping up over and over as if people only know how to hit "new thread" rather than "reply"?

Because my idea is better than the rest, and deserves to be a topic, not a reply.

So why do we all ferry our goods straight to the carebear capital in Jita?

CCP has already made routes around Jita to cut down on traffic passing through the system.

Change Jita to 0.0 NPC Null.

Problem Solved.

Then we will really see what the player want.

Something tells me the hub will just be moved to another high-sec location cause null-sec wants it that way.

please tell me i'm not the only one that's bored of the same thread popping up over and over as if people only know how to hit "new thread" rather than "reply"?

the player wants profit the easiest way possible. thats what the player wants. the player doesnt care where this is they want

profit
ease

now you can prioritize those two however you want, BUT the people in this game to make isk are gonna make their isk. so changing jita to null would not accomplish anything except causing the hub to shift.



this is natural human(probably all animal) instinct. and at a minimum the natural adaptation of the market.

there is no reason people wouldnt immediately start doing their trade in a more secure area. you essentially just increased your operating costs (now you need protection to undock, smaller ships[less cargo], more expensive ships carry less quantities, replacing more ships/goods etc..) so there is no logical reason to continue unless the profit is going up to compensate for the rise in operating costs. which of course isnt happening because demand in your new nullsec system will drop as well.


sorry taking off my pretend economist hat now, please feel free to tell me im way off the mark.

I personally think most people that care in the game are hoping that the POS revamp happens, and it's done correctly. Personal POS set ups. 100% refining in null/WH arrays, etc.

I wonder how bad it would truly be if Jita's trade hub was "moved" away anyways.

I think it would be exciting.

Some bold assumptions there

pos revamp excites me because you know POS interface sucks.

You're not the only one.

Amusingly enough these kinds of threads were not all over the place months ago like they are now. The HBCFC coalition will have all of null blue or in some NIP before too long, save for some entities living out of NPC null. Which they have demonstrated in the past they want NPC null gone too. The reason why you are seeing these threads all over the place is they would much rather blame high sec for their boredom than themselves.

I say let them sleep in the bed they made.

Disclaimer: Full blown assumption ahead.
I'm just guessing on this one. I'm assuming that there aren't enough moons in null to build all the PoS's that would be required to convert raw materials into useable products. I'm assuming that the initial statges of production on advanced components and materials is done in null, then shipped to high and low where the "next stage" of production occurs to create the materials used in T2 and up production; due to PoS restrictions.

I'm assuming that before CCP can ever "fix" anything, they need to do the PoS revamp. As well as reduce the extent of what you can do as an industrialist from the safety of the NPC corporations. (IE:Require T2 production to be done from player run structures such as the revamped PoS's and player run stations.)

For us 0.0 residents who blame all things bad on carebears, we must realize that we do this to ourselves. Hisec in its current form could not exist without our blessings, and decisions to make their lives so convenient and fruitful. Most tech 2 manufacturing and even large ship manufacturing takes place in empire, yet the amount of megacyte, morphite and zydrine required to make this possible ALL must come from nullsec. Every single t2 material that exists must be harvested and processed outside of hisec. So why do we all ferry our goods straight to the carebear capital in Jita?

We know why we do. Because everyone else does, and that's where buyers go. Sensible, logical, and efficient. Now consider this proposal. All nullsec/lowsec organizations who have an interest in making null more active shall flat out refuse to sell anything in any hisec system for at least 3 months. Put it up in a lowsec npc nullsec system near your home for around Jita prices. If one or two small corps do this, it's almost meaningless. But if one of the supercoalitions could see the potential of this change in habits, the results would be awesome for us, and ****** for hisec players.

The outcomes I see would be all good:
Lowsec and NPCNull Trade hubs around the borders of 0.0 would spring to life, presenting trade opportunities to fill the eternal demand of t2 materials in jita.

Pirates notice these trade hubs, and do their thing, possibly decreasing the supply of materials even further, through item destruction. Even better isk for the producer of said goods.

Nullsec denizens save on jump fuel from trying to clear the whole universe just to get to jita and sell to a trade bots buy orders.

Smart cookies start interregional trading routes, balancing out these lowsec/null trade hubs with materials from each major part of space, making the availablity rival jita, and closer to the outer edges of empire, moving production away from The Forge slowly but surely.

0.0 industry fixed
lowsec populated
risk vs reward realized.
delicious tears from the true carebears.

only problem i can think of is getting the supercoalitions to agree on something.

null sec is a joke to alot of ppl

ppl dont like to put alot assests at risk and with blob warfare sov taken station teken ppl lose alot they junk
make all null npc space job done you see alot more willing to take the risk

ppl dont like cta its our game time we do wtf we want with it not what some jumped up null dude says

if you null secers have problem with null adapt or try fix or gtfo all this whineing kinda getting silly

nothing rong with losec
nothing rong with hisec

nurf hisec and ccp will lose alot subs

losec is were I live and do 90% my activatys 10% hisec

null sec 0%

mostly becouse the ppl that live there I put up with them for three years and wouldnt wast another second on them

so cry whine beg ccp for nurf of other area wont change jack sh#t except the loss of subs

Game completely breaks, people unsubb, prices skyrocket, grief killmails skyrocket, and you think hisec industrialists are just going to keep getting into pirate infested areas and lose billions, ? Dont think so.

OP,

Nice posting but you forgot the most important part: jump freighters

Jump freighters
Jump bridges
Titan bridge

And none of them (null sec) and specially their industrial NPC alts or alt corporations would ever play the game. None plays for internet honor, all of them play only for their wallet, it's not hard to understand.

I agree that CTA's suck, Blobs suck, hotdrops suck, losing sov sucks. It's why I'm in NPC null. just roam and pick off the stragglers of that blob on a cta to hotdrop some sov. That's why i specifically suggested people selling their goods in NPC null and lowsec. Anyone can go to nullsec. Theres not nearly as many common gatecamps as you think. And NPC null is only slightly worse than any other place in the game.

Dear Original Poster,

Your idea is very bright indeed. But there are some external factors.

To get a full experience please set up a POS in low sec and stockpile your BPO's there. To get industry and invention rolling.

Also, please warp freighters loaded with ZYdrine across 0.4 systems. Also, could you bring a freighter load of tech 2 modules and undock in it please.

Then also navigate your newly bought mission battle ship past borderline systems.

Also, use shortest cuts for faster goods acquisition, fly shuttles through Tama, Old Man Star and Rancer to get better delivery.

[quote=Qolde][quote=psycho freak]

im ex outbreak lived npc 0.0 for long time but what I mean also is

why wiuld anyone in they right mind join a sov corp aliance just to spend hours days weeks setting up they area and then a massive coalition blob comes and takes the lot

I fought in the lv south war
I fought in the first bob war takeing feythabolis from rise
I fought in second bob war and against ol MC
I fought in a few drone land wars
I fought in atlas wars

me personaly iv had enough of taken and loseing space

I rember old north with roaming tri gangs tbh that was best time in null sec no sov crap

ppl aint gona wast time build somthing for a mega coalition to just come and take and if they do good luck to them


all the problems with null sec are player made problems you had to blue everything in sight and wipe out those who didnt blue so now you you whine lol

make all null npc space remove sov they only want the moond anways

Plan B: significantly raise taxes on high-sec transactions.

I like that one but, if null taxes can be changed by station owner it will not take more than 1h after DT/patch before the little grunts get yet, another wallet hit.

And after everything in high sec is taxed to 95% and industry obliterated and any other ham-fisted changes...

after all of that...

And players still choose to not fall into the folds of the null coalitions to become a F1 monkey; then what?

null sec is a joke to alot of ppl

ppl dont like to put alot assests at risk and with blob warfare sov taken station teken ppl lose alot they junk
make all null npc space job done you see alot more willing to take the risk

ppl dont like cta its our game time we do wtf we want with it not what some jumped up null dude says

if you null secers have problem with null adapt or try fix or gtfo all this whineing kinda getting silly

nothing rong with losec
nothing rong with hisec

nurf hisec and ccp will lose alot subs

losec is were I live and do 90% my activatys 10% hisec

null sec 0%

mostly becouse the ppl that live there I put up with them for three years and wouldnt wast another second on them

so cry whine beg ccp for nurf of other area wont change jack sh#t except the loss of subs

And after everything in high sec is taxed to 95% and industry obliterated and any other ham-fisted changes...

after all of that...

And players still choose to not fall into the folds of the null coalitions to become a F1 monkey; then what?

And after everything in high sec is taxed to 95% and industry obliterated and any other ham-fisted changes...

after all of that...

And players still choose to not fall into the folds of the null coalitions to become a F1 monkey; then what?

That's ********. 95%? Don't be silly. Secondly, I've played the sov game, and it's really not for people like me. I scoff at F1 monkeys in fact. Small gang warfare is much better. I don't want anyone to join a corporation and play the game for someone else. Chribba said,"Never let anyone else dictate your goals." The keyword is dictate. You can suggest goals, you can debate goals or you can improve them. This isn't even a war on hisec move. It's a war on carebears. You're in NC. In fact your alliance is neighbors to mine, you have a vested interest in the broadened scope of industrial affairs in New Eden. This perception of the state of affairs was realized by enough of the nullsec population, or at least the ones with a voice to get it through, it wouldn't change anything about the game except the risk/reward optionsof buying nullsec produced materials.

People will still take **** to Jita.
The price in jita will be a percentage higher than nearer to the places of production.
The young trader will be able to exploit this, if he had the option.
The hisec manufacturer would be able to exploit this, if he had the option.
The only difference is that you wouldn't be forced to go to jita for t2 materials.

I think the more important aspect to consider is if high-sec industry is primarily run by null-sec alts, then what would happen to the high-sec market if a large portion of those industry/market alts migrated to low/null?

EVE would die. We better not change anything.

And after everything in high sec is taxed to 95% and industry obliterated and any other ham-fisted changes...

after all of that...

And players still choose to not fall into the folds of the null coalitions to become a F1 monkey; then what?

No need for that kind of extremism. The increased taxes would simply encourage more people to participate in low/null as opposed to being a stick to force *everyone* into low/null.


I think the more important aspect to consider is if high-sec industry is primarily run by null-sec alts, then what would happen to the high-sec market if a large portion of those industry/market alts migrated to low/null?

No need for that kind of extremism. The increased taxes would simply encourage more people to participate in low/null as opposed to being a stick to force *everyone* into low/null.


I think the more important aspect to consider is if high-sec industry is primarily run by null-sec alts, then what would happen to the high-sec market if a large portion of those industry/market alts migrated to low/null?

Then nullsec would continue to require the majority of EVE's produce to consume without being able to simply place the producers into highsec. Nullsec alliances that wished to continue warring in nullsec would be compelled to stock their space with non-combatants in order to keep fuelling their war machines. "F1 monkey" would no longer be a nullsec paradigm. That's what.

It is the most elegant solution to the very problem you complain about.

Then nullsec would continue to require the majority of EVE's produce to consume without being able to simply place the producers into highsec. Nullsec alliances that wished to continue warring in nullsec would be compelled to stock their space with non-combatants in order to keep fuelling their war machines. "F1 monkey" would no longer be a nullsec paradigm. That's what.

It is the most elegant solution to the very problem you complain about.

Taxes would be merely passed onto the consumer, best solution is to match highsec industrial production capacity with highsec commodity consumption, ie: removing most station manufacturing slots, gearing down highsec large POS production capacity, research, etc. and letting scarcity increase pressure to develop new manufacturing areas.

null is what players made it now enjoy your sh#thole and stop crying

Taxes would be merely passed onto the consumer, best solution is to match highsec industrial production capacity with highsec commodity consumption, ie: removing most station manufacturing slots, gearing down highsec large POS production capacity, research, etc. and letting scarcity increase pressure to develop new manufacturing areas.

that would only increase prices ppl would just jf mats to losec build ninja to hisec

null sec has everything it need
top planets
ice belts
all ores
moon goo

but instead of building a empire to match hisec nullers would rather smash everyone or blue everyone
yes a few things need buff like pos and stations but for most part nuller have everything at they disposal if they choose not to utalise thats theyet problem no need to nurf other areas or cry on forums

I agree with the declaration that null is what players made it, but I realize that I can change it.

Nullsec is what it is because the inhabitants have adapted the most effective practices given the hardcoded game mechanics provided to them by CCP. Children confuse this with some sort of moral judgement about nullsec dwellers.

Nullsec is what it is because the inhabitants have adapted the most effective practices given the hardcoded game mechanics provided to them by CCP. Children confuse this with some sort of moral judgement about nullsec dwellers.

damn you nulluminati for making 20b stations have worse refining and manufacturing, both efficiency and capacity-wise, then free npc corp stations

why null leaders did you do this? whyyy?

why couldn't you all learn from CVA's NRDS example?

If only setting everyone red before shooting them would make the stations better.

there is no npc null damn

but if you read bck you see turning all sov null to npc space was somthing I sugested but that might be to dangaras for nullsheep

There's enough NPC null as it is. You should come down some time. A few orphan blobtards have moved in, but other than that it's good fun around here.

It can be better, even with the current game mechanics.

nope ! the current situation is almost 90% game mechanics and 10% people

some reasons why you simply can not get a nullsec industrial empire running (other than for building supercaps)

1. highsec is WAY to good compared to nullsec
- build slots are available for virtually free and in abundance
- same with 100% refineries, often in combination
- same with lowend minerals

Example: Right You need one Minmatar Outpost, several Amarr Outposts, some rorquals, several towers and at least one JF to "start" a nullsec industrial corp (not even talking about an alliance !) the additional profits that come with faster manufacturing and research don't even come close to paying that (that = at LEAST 100bn ISK) in a reasonable amount of time, it is also a major pain in the ass and simply not worth it. period

Solution:
- a starbase system that allows building structures that have both, a 100% refinery and loads of production slots in the same place
- highsec refineries and production slots should be worse and/or more expensive than those in 00 by at least 10% that can not be bypassed
- add a nice amount of lowend minerals to gneiss and spodumain
- add more ore variations (hyperdense veldspar, 30% more minerals ...)

2. corp mechanics
- all or nothing, you can not allow someone to build stuff without letting him cancel everyones jobs currently running
- hangar access
- there is no corp or alliance income to gain from industrialists

Solution:
- fix corp mechanics
- introduce a way to tax members for using infrastructure in a way that lets both parties profit from it
- more hangar divisions to allow a better organisation of blueprints and the like.

3. reasons to have an inustrial backbone:
- there is no way an alliance can profit from having a strong industrial backbone (in it's own territory)

Solution:
- introduce a way to tax members for using infrastructure in a way that lets both parties profit from it, much (maybe 20%) better (faster, less waste, ...) industrial lines for the producer, 10% Tax for the alliance

4. mentality (the 10% people)
- there are people out there who want all the cool stuff without doing anything for it.

Solution:
- will solve itself, useless corps and people have always, and will always be kicked, if you do not want to fight for your stuff, it will be removed from you, either with enemy help or by our own hands

nope ! the current situation is almost 90% game mechanics and 10% people

some reasons why you simply can not get a nullsec industrial empire running (other than for building supercaps)

1. highsec is WAY to good compared to nullsec
- build slots are available for virtually free and in abundance
- same with 100% refineries, often in combination
- same with lowend minerals

Example: Right You need one Minmatar Outpost, several Amarr Outposts, some rorquals, several towers and at least one JF to "start" a nullsec industrial corp (not even talking about an alliance !) the additional profits that come with faster manufacturing and research don't even come close to paying that (that = at LEAST 100bn ISK) in a reasonable amount of time, it is also a major pain in the ass and simply not worth it. period

Solution:
- a starbase system that allows building structures that have both, a 100% refinery and loads of production slots in the same place
- highsec refineries and production slots should be worse and/or more expensive than those in 00 by at least 10% that can not be bypassed
- add a nice amount of lowend minerals to gneiss and spodumain
- add more ore variations (hyperdense veldspar, 30% more minerals ...)

2. corp mechanics
- all or nothing, you can not allow someone to build stuff without letting him cancel everyones jobs currently running
- hangar access
- there is no corp or alliance income to gain from industrialists

Solution:
- fix corp mechanics
- introduce a way to tax members for using infrastructure in a way that lets both parties profit from it
- more hangar divisions to allow a better organisation of blueprints and the like.

3. reasons to have an inustrial backbone:
- there is no way an alliance can profit from having a strong industrial backbone (in it's own territory)

Solution:
- introduce a way to tax members for using infrastructure in a way that lets both parties profit from it, much (maybe 20%) better (faster, less waste, ...) industrial lines for the producer, 10% Tax for the alliance

4. mentality (the 10% people)
- there are people out there who want all the cool stuff without doing anything for it.

Solution:
- will solve itself, useless corps and people have always, and will always be kicked, if you do not want to fight for your stuff, it will be removed from you, either with enemy help or by our own hands

I can understand null needs buff lived nul for many years but dont nurff othe areas

Those are all very good reasons that sov 0.0 wont work, and I agree with you fully. They need to be changed. But what about lowsec/ npc null? They have stations(though not nearly as bountiful and pimped out like hisec). I think that the fringes of empire (molden heath, derelik, khanid, aridia) are severely underutilized.

there is actually :stuff: happening in lowsec, mostly reactions and quite some T2 and capital production

for NPC nullsec:

lack of stations, lack of anomalies to mine reasonable amounts of highend minerals, too many :elitepvp: corps to defend against, no system upgrades, terrible sec-status and almost nothing that highsec can't offer for a cheaper price and with much less hassle

Gé¼dit: LOWSEC gdmmit

...well that and goons are allso know for saying one thing and stabing people in the back later.

If we didn't stab in the back, how would we get that delicious back meat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_%28fowl%29

Taxes would be merely passed onto the consumer, best solution is to match highsec industrial production capacity with highsec commodity consumption, ie: removing most station manufacturing slots, gearing down highsec large POS production capacity, research, etc. and letting scarcity increase pressure to develop new manufacturing areas.

It's ironic because you'd think we stabbed people in the back down south, except now they're blues. Welp.

Of course... So lets say that "Country A" has great industry on the west side, while on the east side is is uneconomical... So what do you do? Destroying flawlessly working factories on the west or buffing poor and unbalanced industry on the east? (by some advantages like better material/time manufacturing ratio etc)...

Pitty and childish

Of course... So lets say that "Country A" has great industry on the west side, while on the east side is is uneconomical... So what do you do?

For us 0.0 ...

So, I've read a ton of back and forth on this, and here's my question. Is there actually, really, a lack of industrial ability in null, or is it nullseccers wanting industrialists in a place where they can get gudfites?

A simple in-game mechanic to nudge industrial work into null would be a tariff. Cross from high to null or vice versa, get charged a fee on your cargo. Slide the fee in such a way that, based on cost of production in null, it would be cheaper to just build there. Problems solved. Those with deep pockets can eat the tariff and do things where it's safe. People feeling risky and looking to make a buck can undercut the fee and produce in null. High sec folks keep what they have, nullseccers see more industry, everyone is happy.

Both. Due to the gimped nature of player-owned stations, and the fact you can only have one per system in 0.0, there are highsec systems that outstrip entire nullsec regions in manufacturing capacity. Not even getting into the fact that the 0.0 alliance is paying 20b isk to get a crappy version of what is all over highsec for free. Or that there's no incentive to mine low-end minerals in 0.0 over mining them for the same yield in highsec space under CONCORD protection.

With such a system in place, it's only natural that the 0.0 miner or manufacturer's value can be measured in how much jump fuel it would cost to just buy whatever he produces and jump it down to nullsec. Logically, why protect a miner in your space when you can just stuff him back to highsec where he'll produce the same ore, uninterrupted thanks to CONCORD, and have to undercut his wares against all the other highsec miners?

So alliance leaders have no motive to bring in industrialists, and (subcap) industrialists have no motive to join alliances. Solving this would be the first step towards populating 0.0 with the vast infrastructure that is needed to supply its massive consumption of ships, modules, ammo, etc. that should be bustling about all over the place but isn't, because it's all in highsec being relayed by jump freighters.

I like this idea because it'd solve the 'isk injection' problem in EVE pretty handily. But it doesn't solve the problem about once the risk-taking industrialists arriving in 0.0 to start undercutting having to deal with the hardcoded feebleness of null manufacturing.

Some bold assumptions there

All nullsec/lowsec organizations who have an interest in making null more active shall flat out refuse to sell anything in any hisec system for at least 3 months. Put it up in a lowsec npc nullsec system near your home for around Jita prices. If one or two small corps do this, it's almost meaningless. But if one of the supercoalitions could see the potential of this change in habits, the results would be awesome for us, and ****** for hisec players.

The outcomes I see would be all good:

damn you nulluminati for making 20b stations have worse refining and manufacturing, both efficiency and capacity-wise, then free npc corp stations

why null leaders did you do this? whyyy?

why couldn't you all learn from CVA's NRDS example?

4) Possibly annoy hisec enough that they just start spontaneously forming blobs just to blow up all your bot controlled gate camps just on general principle, thus opening the door to anarchy into your little feudal kingdoms.

4)just start spontaneously forming blobs just to blow up all your bot controlled gate camps just on general principle, thus opening the door

4)blobs just to blow up all your bot controlled gate camps just on general principle,

4)bot controlled gate camps

The last time an alliance tried that and tolerated neutrals to dock on their stations, some pro null pvp alliances burned providence to the ground and pretty much gave cva das boot

CVA had other problems that caused the death of provibloc. Though neutral docking in sov null would be nice, my suggestion is not for sov null. It's for lowsec and NPC null where you don't have to worry about sov burning to the ground, nor do you have to worry about POSes and industry slots. It wouldn't even be about production. It's more for trade. You take the T2 components to the nearest lowsec/npc null, sell it for Jita prices, and watch the reaction of the markets. If CFHBC did it with tech alone, it would change the way the game goes. If null and low as a whole took a stand against hisec industrial tyranny, we would never have to go to Jita again. Sendaya would be like Rens, Sahkt would be like Amarr, Konora would be like Hek. It would reduce Sov null's transportation costs and time spent doing things we don't want. Smaller trade groups and alliances would pick up the slack, and the prices would reflect that. You'd have some people still travelling to Jita to get top dollar, but many people would choose to exploit the decentralization of trade, and not only buy from the lowsec hubs, but also sell whats missing from that region of space.

to make people unlearn to trade everything in jita would take months and trilions of isk you d loose by not selling it at jita,thats impossible to do at this stage of game

So, I've read a ton of back and forth on this, and here's my question. Is there actually, really, a lack of industrial ability in null, or is it nullseccers wanting industrialists in a place where they can get gudfites?

All of these threads have 0.0 F1 monkeys complaining about null being all blue.

Why not drop roles and move onto something a little more exciting?

It's not impossible. Especially if most of the people in the game hate going to Jita. The only people who really like Jita and don't want it to change are trade bots. Everyone else could give a ****, as long as they can get what they need. Nullsec and lowsec citizens collectively have trillions of isk. I admit, it is a part of the whole prisoner's dilemma that shapes the interactions of the game, but why can't we all see that, and fix it? We're smarter than game theory.

It's not impossible. Especially if most of the people in the game hate going to Jita. The only people who really like Jita and don't want it to change are trade bots. Everyone else could give a ****, as long as they can get what they need. Nullsec and lowsec citizens collectively have trillions of isk. I admit, it is a part of the whole prisoner's dilemma that shapes the interactions of the game, but why can't we all see that, and fix it? We're smarter than game theory.

the problem is not in money or even time

the problem is people are a55holes,the second you start to sell stuff for lower price (lower price to attract people and create volume) in the new hub you are trying to create,you d have bunch of people buying the cheap stuff and reselling it at jita or anywhere else in high sec - even if you managed to get 50% of null sec folk (which is lets be honest unrealistic) to not sell stuff at jita the other 50% would trip you just to make quick isk off that - and remember once you stop selling at jita prices will go up and thats even more fuel to market speculation fire

building a fleet of titans is a childs play compared to making people trust your idea and actually act upon it,and its not like thousand people,you d need tens of thousands of players to make that commitment - thats such monumental task that if you managed to pull it off id vote for you becoming the jesus of new eden

For us 0.0 residents who blame all things bad on carebears, we must realize that we do this to ourselves. Hisec in its current form could not exist without our blessings, and decisions to make their lives so convenient and fruitful. Most tech 2 manufacturing and even large ship manufacturing takes place in empire, yet the amount of megacyte, morphite and zydrine required to make this possible ALL must come from nullsec. Every single t2 material that exists must be harvested and processed outside of hisec. So why do we all ferry our goods straight to the carebear capital in Jita?

We know why we do. Because everyone else does, and that's where buyers go. Sensible, logical, and efficient. Now consider this proposal. All nullsec/lowsec organizations who have an interest in making null more active shall flat out refuse to sell anything in any hisec system for at least 3 months. Put it up in a lowsec npc nullsec system near your home for around Jita prices. If one or two small corps do this, it's almost meaningless. But if one of the supercoalitions could see the potential of this change in habits, the results would be awesome for us, and ****** for hisec players.

The outcomes I see would be all good:
Lowsec and NPCNull Trade hubs around the borders of 0.0 would spring to life, presenting trade opportunities to fill the eternal demand of t2 materials in jita.

Pirates notice these trade hubs, and do their thing, possibly decreasing the supply of materials even further, through item destruction. Even better isk for the producer of said goods.

Nullsec denizens save on jump fuel from trying to clear the whole universe just to get to jita and sell to a trade bots buy orders.

Smart cookies start interregional trading routes, balancing out these lowsec/null trade hubs with materials from each major part of space, making the availablity rival jita, and closer to the outer edges of empire, moving production away from The Forge slowly but surely.

0.0 industry fixed
lowsec populated
risk vs reward realized.
delicious tears from the true carebears.

only problem i can think of is getting the supercoalitions to agree on something.

If you sell slightly below Jita prices, and people buy it to relist in Jita, you then raise prices. You're still selling it at the same rate, with less travel time. Time > the puny amount of Money you'd gain by risking 4 extra JF jumps to get to jita yourself. It benefits the producer, the trader, the speculator, the people on the fringe of empire. Even if a few entities continue to sell in Jita, they'd eventually be losing, because there'd be new trade hubs that have buy orders up for higher than Jita prices, looking for things they can't get locally. Say the north needs a bunch of vagabonds, and jita's selling fernite plates at 8k, and in akkio, which is next door to metropolis where the **** grows on trees, they're selling at 7.5k, and all the other things they need are there as well, for reasonable prices, why would you want to go to Jita, which is further away, and is now the victim of not being as supplied as it once was?

The CFHBC really is like 75% of null now. There's no reason for them to sell in Jita when the cons outweigh the pros. They've already done many things as a group that have affected markets for their own benefit. Did goons mine ice in empire during their ice interdiction? Did they sell tech to buy orders doing OTEC? Did they whine about ship losses during Burn Jita? This time the benefit wouldn't be isk, for them it would be something even better. Isk per effort. Adding on top of that the opportunity for kills in lowsec/npcnull (I know someone has to camp the lowsec trade hubs). I really do believe this idea can take hold, because there are still other trade hubs. They just need t2 components from the producers in their respective regions. Even hisec will benefit from this, just not the ones around Jita.

For us 0.0 residents who blame all things bad on carebears, we must realize that we do this to ourselves. Hisec in its current form could not exist without our blessings, and decisions to make their lives so convenient and fruitful. Most tech 2 manufacturing and even large ship manufacturing takes place in empire, yet the amount of megacyte, morphite and zydrine required to make this possible ALL must come from nullsec. Every single t2 material that exists must be harvested and processed outside of hisec. So why do we all ferry our goods straight to the carebear capital in Jita?

We know why we do. Because everyone else does, and that's where buyers go. Sensible, logical, and efficient. Now consider this proposal. All nullsec/lowsec organizations who have an interest in making null more active shall flat out refuse to sell anything in any hisec system for at least 3 months. Put it up in a lowsec npc nullsec system near your home for around Jita prices. If one or two small corps do this, it's almost meaningless. But if one of the supercoalitions could see the potential of this change in habits, the results would be awesome for us, and ****** for hisec players.

The outcomes I see would be all good:
Lowsec and NPCNull Trade hubs around the borders of 0.0 would spring to life, presenting trade opportunities to fill the eternal demand of t2 materials in jita.

Pirates notice these trade hubs, and do their thing, possibly decreasing the supply of materials even further, through item destruction. Even better isk for the producer of said goods.

Nullsec denizens save on jump fuel from trying to clear the whole universe just to get to jita and sell to a trade bots buy orders.

Smart cookies start interregional trading routes, balancing out these lowsec/null trade hubs with materials from each major part of space, making the availablity rival jita, and closer to the outer edges of empire, moving production away from The Forge slowly but surely.

0.0 industry fixed
lowsec populated
risk vs reward realized.
delicious tears from the true carebears.

only problem i can think of is getting the supercoalitions to agree on something.

Many of the Null establishments rely on the T2 income to pay their Sov bills. Even Goons would be forced to cherry pick their Sov if they couldn't sell Technetium for 3 or 4 months.

None of the Null toys are worth their salt. From faction ships to officer mods to T2.

If you know you are going to be sitting in a mission hub running missions, a meta 4 fit Raven with faction Ammo is all you need. Any scenario where you will lose that Meta 4 fit Raven, the same will happen with an Officer fit Golem. From the ISK to bonus perspective, Null doesn't compete.

i'm actually quite eager to see hbc/cfc have control of null. something will have to give once everywhere is owned by one entity (give or take), and i think that'll bring about some interesting events.
i could, of course, be over optimistic and talking out of my ass. only time will tell.

well there is another problem

you said 75% on null are friendly or whatever

what if they fall apart? you spent a year trying to lure people out of jita when suddenly you are no longer friends with other and you will loose access to that hub

are you ready to risk it?

im not arguing that its impossible to do that at all,im saying that its a monumental goal that would require a lot of things not to go down to sjithouse - thats why lowsec peeps havent even try that (and if they tried it was so insignificant nobody noticed) and they keep whining on forums asking ccp to fix low sec

btw for me it would be obvious task,if i was a leader of a giant alliance id want to do that - seeing that not happening tells me that either they are incompetent or they dont trust each other or they dont trust members enough to pull it off or they are simply lazy and whining to ccp is easier to do

lowsec. lowsec. lowsec. you cannot lose access to lowsec. you can be camped in a station pretty hard, but you can ALWAYS escape(if youre not a tard), especially if it's a trade hub. You have undock bookmarks, interceptors, covert ops, black ops, jump freighters, and all manner of tools at your disposal to never be trapped in a station. An NPC null station can be bubblecamped, this is quite different. You might need a covops alt to scout for bubbles.

They just need more industrialist slaves to build their toys.

we already have those (you)

so heres idea for you lowsec people

stop selling all your stuff at jita,right now

dont wait untill ccp does something,be proactive - maybe if you start actually doing something,ccp will notice you

you talk way too much and act way to little

and im not saying this because i have large quantities of low sec ore stored or low sec alts

Technetium is going to sell no matter where you place it, so is neodymium, dysprosium, and whatever else you can imagine. If C+H left their sell orders up in jita, and just placed their new stock in lowsec at Jita prices, it would start to sell before the old stock was gone. T2 would skyrocket either way. You're out of your head if you think that there is a single alliance in the game who would field t2 weapons during a fleet op. You're out of your head even more if you think a carebear would dare trade in his golem for a raven. A mach for a mael. That's called supply and demand. The machariel blueprint would be worth 400-500m if it followed the LP formula of other items. If it weren't worth its salt, it would not be used. I do agree that it's expensive, but it's not overpriced. Gate camping without a claymore? Sucks. Abaddon fleet without a damnation or loki? crazy talk. Blasters without null? Pffffft. What are you smoking?

Randolph, it definitely wouldn't be joe shmoe making these decisions. If they have a tech moon, then they probably arent joe shmoe, who would try to benefit in the wallet in most cases. But there's something nice about some Nullsec organizations. The concept of a team. BoB had it. Some of their corps were 100% communist. Goons have it, they get free ships and mods, and have no rules. They could say in a coalition mail,"We're going to starve Jita for t2 goods, everyone sell your moonshit in Maila(lowsec that is 10 hisec jumps from jita) for a while. Go camp there, watch the tears." The players with brains and balls would figure out how to win. (it's not hard in lowsec) The rest would take a pay cut. Tech sells either way. Price even goes up, with how much would be destroyed in transit during the learning process. T2 harvesters have less work, more profit, and traders have something fun to do.

C+H guys, see what your market and military overlords think of this idea. Point them to this thread. Someone get akita t to check it out too and do some magic market speculation.

Please do inform us how this will add extra manufacturing and research lines to nullsec stations, or allow more than one per system or pay Sov bills or pay for stations.

I'm fascinated to learn.

Null is a farm space for HS.

you just described a lot of stuff im not willing to deal with,id just pay a 1M more in jita than fooling around with that

that maybe ccp will notice you exist...you know they are overwhelmed with carebears petitions and dumbing down high sec

What is this I don't even...

No go on, please explain in more detail.

And this is the true first problem, it's so easy to undock warp to safe undock and hit "jump to".

And Jita is nothing more than a system with stations, quite close at JF jump from many regions you'll tell me but you're not right saying you're going to pay 1M more in jita because actually it's the other way around and this is only possible because of competition, then it's so easy to get stuff in and out of there like every other major trade hub it's not worth the effort to do it somewhere else with all the consequences every fail system has in the end: stagnation

Industrial revamp alone will not be enough to shake the game in those different areas, you need to change trading skills/taxes/mechanics as you have to change traveling tools for those goods.
Single industrial revamp would already be a kick start but it's only the top of the iceberg.

well ok you say its easy to undock warp etc. - you wanna bet how many people actually know how undocking works?

its just unnecesary risk trading in low sec hub,jita is far more convenient i can even afk there

so if you gonna create a low sec hub and want actually attract people,i just dont see that happening on large scale - lot of players dont even go to low sec with cheap ship - they are certainly not gonna go there with freighter full of valuable stuff - they will pay extra in jita

That's fine, as long as we have the option of, you know, going to a low sec hub, as well as Jita. This is an anti Jita thread.

its just unnecesary risk trading in low sec hub,jita is far more convenient i can even afk there

so if you gonna create a low sec hub and want actually attract people,i just dont see that happening on large scale - lot of players dont even go to low sec with cheap ship - they are certainly not gonna go there with freighter full of valuable stuff - they will pay extra in jita

Null industrtialist,
High sec NPC corp industrialists are overpowered. I use one; it needs to be nerfed.

High sec indusrialist,
We know it's overpowered, but instead of fixing the problem well just keep arguing it's nulls fault, and we'll pretend that if we just fix bridging there wouldn't be a problem.

I'm not saying major trade hubs should be in low null or whatever place, I'm just saying the current mechanics are so bad they made JIta and other major trade hubs happen, and that no matter how much you'll change industry in null doesn't change the fact shipping goods from and to them is far too easy and by far less risky than travel 20 jumps in high sec.
Trading current system doesn't help neither on conflict creation but concentrates it in a limited number of systems under the banner of single local power blocks.

I wish people would stop this.

The trade connections are intended and supported by CCP. The ability to easilly move goods from one reqion to another is vital to the economy.

It would be harmful if they made transporting goods tedious.

You guys act like null import/ export only benefits null.
Where did the moon goo come from? Who moved it?
Where did the high end minterals come from? Who moved it?
Who's moving all the low ends into null?

Null players are moving YOUR **** to null, and moving our stuff up to you so you can build YOUR ****.


It's pretty stupid to ask them to nerf a rather vital and benefitial part of the game, YOU never have to deal with. YOU only need to open the market to find the stuff YOU didn't have to move.

You guys are only asking to hurt yourself, because YOU wouldn't be the ones putting in the tedious work to get the **** YOU need.

I nominate Perimiter as the new trade hub if Jita is changed.

Really... why do you guys think that would accomplish anything? Highbears don't want nullsec play- if they did, they'd already be there. You won't be able to attract them by giving them something they don't want in the first place.

if you dont understand what is this thread about i suggest you leaving and post in one of them nerf threads

I nominate Perimiter as the new trade hub if Jita is changed.

Really... why do you guys think that would accomplish anything? Highbears don't want nullsec play- if they did, they'd already be there. You won't be able to attract them by giving them something they don't want in the first place.

If your best response to being asked to explain your suggestion is a demand that the questioner leave then that does throw the value of your response into question.

Perhaps you'd like to answer a different question instead. Previously you asserted that hisec should have the best industry because it's the "heart of civilisation" - the developed world, compared to Afghanistan hill country. Presumably therefore you would agree that hi-sec should pay developed-world level taxation rates? Say... 25%? That seems pretty moderate.

We don't give two short ***** where the "Highbears" want to play. If they want to stay in hi-sec, more power to them! What we'd like is for it to be actually to our advantage to have our hi-sec alts in the space that we own.

That OK with you?

What's stopping you?

What's stopping you?

Only ourselves. I think even the dissenters are realizing what's possible. Now is the time to leverage our total control of the supply of t2 materials. Let us make the game better for ourselves. We can at least move to lowsec. Jeez it ain't harder than flying through 0.0 in a solo carrier or battleship.

What's stopping you?

game design

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2388661#post2388661

What's stopping you?

You still don't understand that lowsec has pretty much just as many slots as hisec, and npc null ain't too bad either.

I say let them sleep in the bed they made.

You still don't understand that lowsec has pretty much just as many slots as hisec, and npc null ain't too bad either.

and those slots are of the SAME quality as the highsec slots

there is NO reason to do ANYTHING in lowsec that can also be done in highsec

If jump freighters didn't exist, it might have worked if all the coalitions agreed not to sell to high sec, but since they do and allow to completely bypass any gate camps setup by pirates, in wich normal ships have to use to travel from system to system, i'd say your idea comes way to late at this point in the game when it's aproaching it's 10th year of existance.



There are hundreds if not thousands of players with hundreds of billions in isk and assets in game, so changes like that would only affect the newer players and not those that are already well established isk wise.

For us 0.0 residents who blame all things bad on carebears, we must realize that we do this to ourselves. Hisec in its current form could not exist without our blessings, and decisions to make their lives so convenient and fruitful. Most tech 2 manufacturing and even large ship manufacturing takes place in empire, yet the amount of megacyte, morphite and zydrine required to make this possible ALL must come from nullsec. Every single t2 material that exists must be harvested and processed outside of hisec. So why do we all ferry our goods straight to the carebear capital in Jita?

We know why we do. Because everyone else does, and that's where buyers go. Sensible, logical, and efficient. Now consider this proposal. All nullsec/lowsec organizations who have an interest in making null more active shall flat out refuse to sell anything in any hisec system for at least 3 months. Put it up in a lowsec npc nullsec system near your home for around Jita prices. If one or two small corps do this, it's almost meaningless. But if one of the supercoalitions could see the potential of this change in habits, the results would be awesome for us, and ****** for hisec players.

The outcomes I see would be all good:
Lowsec and NPCNull Trade hubs around the borders of 0.0 would spring to life, presenting trade opportunities to fill the eternal demand of t2 materials in jita.

Pirates notice these trade hubs, and do their thing, possibly decreasing the supply of materials even further, through item destruction. Even better isk for the producer of said goods.

Nullsec denizens save on jump fuel from trying to clear the whole universe just to get to jita and sell to a trade bots buy orders.

Smart cookies start interregional trading routes, balancing out these lowsec/null trade hubs with materials from each major part of space, making the availablity rival jita, and closer to the outer edges of empire, moving production away from The Forge slowly but surely.

0.0 industry fixed
lowsec populated
risk vs reward realized.
delicious tears from the true carebears.

only problem i can think of is getting the supercoalitions to agree on something.

And people might be willing to risk part of those hundreds of billions of isk if there is a reason too.

Indeed, and currently there isn't wich is something i've been complaining about fairly often since i started in 2003 and have done it all, though i suppose i went to null from late 2003 to 2006 to primarily make isk and not so much shoot people unless they kept me from making isk....


The biggest single things that ruined it in null space comes down to 3 things:


1: The release of lvl 4 missions in high sec, wich many seasoned pilots from those days moved back to empire to do those since it's possible to make 25 million an hour, even if it's boring and pretty repetitive once you know all the missions.

2: The availability of incursions in high sec empire wich pay even more than lvl 4 missions do, even if they are harder and require a team to do them where there's at least 2 logistics ships for armor and/or shield repping the damage dealers in tthe group.

3: The introduction of plexes where players can essentially buy them from CCP and sell them on the market, potentially making billions depending on just how many they buy off CCP.....This last one is getting pretty close to pay to win in my book and i wouldn't be surprised if sometime down the line CCP even introduces offers for skill point packs.


When i was in 0.0, none of the above existed and regardless if the pilot was there to make isk or participate in CTA's for defensive or offensive operations or just roaming gangs destroying whatever comes in their path, they still had to be there anyhow because doing anything in high sec empire back then payed like crap by comparison.

And look at all the pretty wars we had back then.

Put it up in a lowsec npc nullsec system near your home for around Jita prices.

OR

you could eat a **** sandwich and Ill get my megacyte from wspace. You know, the place most nullbears are scared of because of no local.

OR

you could eat a **** sandwich and Ill get my megacyte from wspace. You know, the place most nullbears are scared of because of no local.

Boycott hisec, I am begging you. Mission runners will be making half a bil an hour on one account.

buffing null equals nerfing other areas, this argument is stupid

Is absolutely everything a zero-sum game?

been in over half of w-space systems, never lost a ship

The point I was getting at is that it ought to be possible to enhance certain aspects of the mechanics of the game economy without it necessarily be a nerf elsewhere.

Or, what's gained from a 'buff' and lost from a 'nerf' balances out to something greater than zero, i.e. the overall state of the game has been enhanced.

I don't think mechanics that result in enhancements/gains to the null-sec economy/markets/production need necessarily dictate that precisely an exact amount of loss will occur elsewhere (e.g. high-sec).

Thanks for the cliche though.

Wspace is safest space.

Indeed, and currently there isn't wich is something i've been complaining about fairly often since i started in 2003 and have done it all, though i suppose i went to null from late 2003 to 2006 to primarily make isk and not so much shoot people unless they kept me from making isk....


The biggest single things that ruined it in null space comes down to 3 things:


1: The release of lvl 4 missions in high sec, wich many seasoned pilots from those days moved back to empire to do those since it's possible to make 25 million an hour, even if it's boring and pretty repetitive once you know all the missions.

2: The availability of incursions in high sec empire wich pay even more than lvl 4 missions do, even if they are harder and require a team to do them where there's at least 2 logistics ships for armor and/or shield repping the damage dealers in tthe group.

3: The introduction of plexes where players can essentially buy them from CCP and sell them on the market, potentially making billions depending on just how many they buy off CCP.....This last one is getting pretty close to pay to win in my book and i wouldn't be surprised if sometime down the line CCP even introduces offers for skill point packs.


When i was in 0.0, none of the above existed and regardless if the pilot was there to make isk or participate in CTA's for defensive or offensive operations or just roaming gangs destroying whatever comes in their path, they still had to be there anyhow because doing anything in high sec empire back then payed like crap by comparison.

It's not a bad idea but I can't see you getting it done. Even if you did manage to get all the major coalitions to agree to it, prices would inevitably start to rise in high sec, you're right but at some point you are going to get null industrialists who decide to take advantage of the massive profits to be had in high and all you need is likely to be a cyno alt, easily attainable even with high sec only resources.

I like your plan but I just don't see it happening, that first hurdle is roughly the height of a skyscraper and if you do manage to clear it some greedy people will line their own pockets rather than sticking to the plan and as soon as one does it the flood gates will open and we'll be right back where we are now.

Ok easiest way to look at this

Here is manufacturer A

[wall of text]

What about manufacturer B who doesn't yet exist? And manufacturers C, D, E and consumers B, C, D, and E.

People slip too easily into one of the long-discarded mercantilist notion of zero sum, that for a gain to be realized someone, somewhere else experiences a precisely exact amount of loss.

If an enhancement to game economy mechanics serves to retain old players and attract new ones, that's a scenario that could quite easily result in positive-sum gains. Even in scenarios in which retention/attracting doesn't occur, the result could be positive-sum as an outcome of removing inefficiencies from the system.

Seriously, hi-sec industrialists get everything handed to them free of effort, risk and cost. 0.0 industrialists have to provide their own stations, deal with unfair restrictions like only 1 station per system, risk losing their stations and being locked out of their assets there, and then to add insult to injury, pay massive sovereignty bills for the privilege.

You "Country A" types are, to be blunt, frightened silly at the idea of competing on a remotely level playing field. That's the only possible explaination I can think of for opposing the request for that leveling.

On a side note, it's funny how those people making the "heart of civilisation" argument that hi-sec should be better never seem to advocate the other side of that coin.

You want hi-sec to have developed-nation superiority of infrastructure? Sure, OK.
You also get to have developed nation tax rates. How does 25% sound?

Please explain to me how having a nullsec trade hub fixes the issues with manufacturing and refining in nullsec.

Thanks in advance.

So your specific ideas are?

My specific point is that it needn't be a strictly zero-sum game.

Nobody thinks, that hisec should be superior.

I beg your pardon, but if you've been following the various threads on these topics, it seems that quite few people think exactly that. If you're not one of them, then I apologise for jumping on you. (Flu + flu medication isn't a great combo for promoting concentration and insights into subtexts)

To clarify There are multiple aspects to this situation, they all need resolving seperately,fixing just one of them isn't going to solve anything, and rebalancing them is going to be delicate and difficult.

(1) Sov 0.0 simply does not and cannot have sufficient manufacturing capacity to supply itself with the current outpost mechanics. There simply aren't the available production lines. Thus, simply "nerfing hi-sec" won't solve the problem. Even if CCP deleted hi-sec tomorrow, sov industry still wouldn't be viable. It would just move to lo-sec or NPC 0.0. Player built outposts need a complete rebalance.

(2) Hi-sec is virtually "perfect"; there is only one constraint to manufacturing and industry in hi-sec and that is the requirement to purchase Zydrine, Megacyte and Mercoxit from 0.0 or W-space sources. As these minerals are the ones with the lowest physical volume, they're also by far the easiest to transport, so even here, hi-sec has the advantage. With the sole exception of high end minerals, hi-sec is currently either better than anywhere else or else unbeatable (assuming we don't advocate silliness like 110% refine rates) for manufacturing, R&D, Invention, trading and so on. Even if 0.0 was "good" for these activities, hi-sec is arguably too good at all of them.

(3) Productive activity in sov 0.0 operates with some intrinsic costs that mean it has to be "better" than hi-sec to be viable; the productive output of a 0.0 station has to be better than that of a hi-sec system by at least the cost of the sov bills in order for that production to be competitive. To make this clear: let's imagine that CCP make sov outposts have the same number of production lines as a good hi-sec station, and both can make, say, 100 battleships a month. If the sov bill for the 0.0 system to 750M ISK per month, then the cost of producing those battleships needs to be at least 7.5M ISK less in the sov outpost for its production to be competitive.

Whether this difference is best achieved by making hi-sec stations less efficient or sov outposts more efficient is a matter for the economists to decide. And in practice there are quite a few other 'hidden' costs to operating productive activities in 0.0; delays caused by hostile presence, increased losses from same, additional transport overhead due to the 1 station per system limit, the actuarial cost of the possibility of losing the station and the space, plus the (very significant) sunk costs of building the station in the first place and of establishing the sov structures.

So it's easy to imagine that after taking all these into account that our imaginary sov outpost would actually need a 15M or 20M ISK production cost per battleship or BPC run or invention job efficiency advantage to be viable in the long run.

Please bear in mind that the numbers I have used are purely for example purposes, and the actual percentages might be lower or higher. However my instinct is that the real number will be at least ~15%.

Maybe you should read my whole post aggain and not just last sentence