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ISK Sinks. What are they?

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Frank Otichoda HappyGoLucky Mining Co 0	Posted - 2013.01.02 07:22:00 - [1] - Quote So, what are the ISK sinks of eve? Things that completely take ISK out of the game. For a while I've always considered ship loss as an ISK sink but it really isn't. It takes the minerals out of the game, but the isk you used to buy it went to someone else... So what things in eve actually take ISK out of the game? Npc corp/trade tax Using locator agents Buying insurance (and not losing the ship) Most skills Ship repairs (you're doing it wrong) BPO Anything in loyalty point store that cost isk Starbase structure Declaration of war fees (and any other Corp dyes for allisnce/office ect) ??????? Can't think of anything else. But just seems like eve doesn't really have any good isk sinks for how much isk is generated. Couple ideas: For manufacturing, maybe cut mineral reqs by 1/2 and replace with a fee that makes up the other half. Or Something that would make ship losses and actual isk sink Make plexs a seeded item only, so any isk used to buy them is out of the game. (however this would end up costing ccp real money...) I dunno, just feel EVE needs some good isk sinks. There's to much isk floating around eve.
Thomas Gore Blackfyre Enterprise 136	Posted - 2013.01.02 07:33:00 - [2] - Quote Increasing manufacturing costs signifigantly in High Sec would be a good start, but that would make manufacturing low-cost goods totally unprofitable. Solution - seed all low-cost goods - another ISK sink right there.
mynnna GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 74	Posted - 2013.01.02 07:42:00 - [3] - Quote Thomas Gore wrote: Increasing manufacturing costs signifigantly in High Sec would be a good start, but that would make manufacturing low-cost goods totally unprofitable. Solution - seed all low-cost goods - another ISK sink right there. Disagree, actually. Manufacturing fees right now are 300-500m/day isk sink (9-15b/mo) which might as well be nothing on the grand scheme of things. But change the rate to be a .25% fee calculated by estimated value of goods built, and the isk sink becomes (by my estimate) 3-6T/mo with another 3-6T/mo per .25% added, all while adding no meaningful increase to the cost of basically anything at all - 375k isk on a battleship that costs 150m to build, for example. It would be a tremendously large sink. I've a few other novel ideas for adjusting sinks/faucets too, but perhaps another time. You may know me better as Corestwo: https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/corestwo This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Sentamon 603	Posted - 2013.01.02 08:04:00 - [4] - Quote Posting in stealth nerf highsec thread! ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Frank Otichoda HappyGoLucky Mining Co 0	Posted - 2013.01.02 08:17:00 - [5] - Quote Haha I don't want to nerf high sec in any way. Just trying to figure out what types of isk sinks eve could use. To much isk is being generated with out much of a way to take it out of the game Maybe a wear and tear on ships similar to how overloading damages them. But at say 1/100th the damage. Would have to repair modules every so often.
Emma Royd Maddled Gommerils 187	Posted - 2013.01.02 08:37:00 - [6] - Quote Isk Sink's that I can think of PI Tax in High Sec Reprocessing "tax" if you've not got standing Repair Bills (can be eliminated by fitting repair mods) Station Research Fees Station Manufacturing Fees Rookie Corp tax (can be fairly easily avoided by starting your own 1 man corp, small setup cost and that's it.) I'm not sure where a lot of the isk is coming from, I seem to remember that Incursions got their payout's nerfed a bit, but no doubt that was a big part of the isk generated when they were at full payout. If you've got access to no/low tax POCO's you can turn a reasonable profit by running factory planets.
Vilnius Zar Ordo Ardish 545	Posted - 2013.01.02 08:37:00 - [7] - Quote High sec NEEDS nerfing, especially when it comes to production. The need to haul goods back and forth is good for the whole player driven economy that is EVE and it helps 0.0 out a bit. The best way is through cost rather than restrictions and in this case you can pair cost with isk sink which is even better. Adding an extra fee based on the total minerals needed and then link that to system sec would make for interesting changes. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything. Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish
Skydell Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 488	Posted - 2013.01.02 08:40:00 - [8] - Quote Frank Otichoda wrote: Haha I don't want to nerf high sec in any way. Just trying to figure out what types of isk sinks eve could use. To much isk is being generated with out much of a way to take it out of the game Maybe a wear and tear on ships similar to how overloading damages them. But at say 1/100th the damage. Would have to repair modules every so often. In terms of ISK sinks, the burden should fall on high sec. Null pays massive ISK sinks in the form of Sov. The trouble is low reward in high sec is the trade off for low sink requirements. I don't know what the new POS revamp will look like. It can be an ISK sink but in order for that to happen, they need to make them more than just an arm of the player driven economy and I don't know how they do that in EVE because the player driven economy is the only one that matters.
Frank Otichoda HappyGoLucky Mining Co 0	Posted - 2013.01.02 08:45:00 - [9] - Quote Isk comes from bounties, incursions, ( I want you say faction warfare but that's loyalty points, so more adding items to the game than isk), mission rewards. Think that may be it.
Reiisha Evolution The Retirement Club 187	Posted - 2013.01.02 08:56:00 - [10] - Quote Thomas Gore wrote: Increasing manufacturing costs signifigantly in High Sec would be a good start, but that would make manufacturing low-cost goods totally unprofitable. Solution - seed all low-cost goods - another ISK sink right there. As few goods as possible should be seeded. Ideally, even skills should not be seeded - One of the original plans for skills was for players to provide these aswell. ISK sinks should be combated by reducing isk faucets aswell as increasing existing sinks or adding more. The recent 'level 4 nerf' may help in this regard.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 6190	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:05:00 - [11] - Quote Frank Otichoda wrote: Isk comes from bounties, incursions, ( I want you say faction warfare but that's loyalty points, so more adding items to the game than isk), mission rewards. Think that may be it. Could make incursions pay loyalty points instead of isk. Maybe Concord requires a tax (like insurance). Depending on how much you pay determines how fast they respond. (100 mill a month for 1.0 sec speed, 10 mill for 0.6 speed, free for 0.5 speed) or I dunno, something along those lines. Insurance is a pretty big faucet too. ~a proud belligerent undesirable~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 12429	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:05:00 - [12] - Quote Faucets: NPC bounties NPC buy orders Agent rewards: Mission rewards, Mission time bonuses, Incursion rewards, Deposit repayment Insurance payout GM actions: Reimbursement for lost pods Character creation Sinks: Market taxes & fees: Broker fees, Sales tax NPC sell orders NPC station services: Repairs, Jump clone installation, Medical clone installation/upgrade/station change, Science and industry slot rental, Ship insurance NPC station office fees: Rent, Impound penalties Wardecs Sovereignty fees PI fees: Building PI structures, Import/export tax (from NPC-owned customs offices) Corp & alliance fees: Corp creation, Alliance creation, Alliance upkeep, Creating/awarding medals, Corp registry ads Agent fees: (Certain) LP store items, Locator agent services, Courier missions w/ deposits CSPA Charges Smuggling fines GM Actions: Removal of bought ISK, Removal of insurance after ship reimbursement Character deletion GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
Thomas Gore Blackfyre Enterprise 136	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:10:00 - [13] - Quote Frank Otichoda wrote: Isk comes from bounties, incursions, ( I want you say faction warfare but that's loyalty points, so more adding items to the game than isk), mission rewards. Think that may be it. Could make incursions pay loyalty points instead of isk. LPs are actually a pretty big ISK sink, so one solution would be for everything to reward more LP and less ISK.
Emma Royd Maddled Gommerils 187	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:17:00 - [14] - Quote Skydell wrote: In terms of ISK sinks, the burden should fall on high sec. Null pays massive ISK sinks in the form of Sov. The trouble is low reward in high sec is the trade off for low sink requirements. I don't know what the new POS revamp will look like. It can be an ISK sink but in order for that to happen, they need to make them more than just an arm of the player driven economy and I don't know how they do that in EVE because the player driven economy is the only one that matters. How do sov fees affect the individual player as opposed to the corp, you don't hear of that many corps on the recruitment forum asking for monthly membership fees which directly affect the player, it's normally raised by a corp tax. Granted if you rat you then contribute to the tax bill, but that's no different than being in an empire corp with tax. The problem with nullsec (again looking at the recruitment forums) is it's nearly all PvP which is an isk sink, ships get assploded and need to be replaced, and not much industry goes on, I could be (and quite often am) wrong about this, but you don't often see industry corps recruiting for nullsec. There is huge potential to make isk in null but there's the higher risk of losing it in logistics if you do it wrong (you do scout before you jump don't you? ) Maybe empire could do with a subtle nerf, but how do you do that, everything has a 'state tax' which you can't avoid paying? that would create a small isk-sink As for increasing manufacturing costs, what would that achieve, prices would go up eventually to accommodate this so the manufacturer would still make the same profit, but the buyer would end up paying more for it, so yeah another minor isk-sink On the other hand, you don't generally find Million Isk bounties on rats in the belts in empire, so you could make more money by smacking F1-F8 and waiting a few seconds for a million isk, and the empire manufacturer is busy playing the 0.1 isk game to scratch a living trying to sell stuff. I'm not knocking null, I lived there for plenty of time, I'm not knocking empire, I live there at the moment, but their does need to be fairness in whatever nerfing is done.
Abu Tarynnia Abu Tarynnia Corporation 71	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:18:00 - [15] - Quote Frank Otichoda wrote: So, what are the ISK sinks of eve? Things that completely take ISK out of the game. For a while I've always considered ship loss as an ISK sink but it really isn't. It takes the minerals out of the game, but the isk you used to buy it went to someone else... So what things in eve actually take ISK out of the game? None since there is always ISK coming from 'outside' there is no real sink and therefore no real sandbox. Roids spawn every now and then bringing new minerals to the universe, new missions (being amarr I not even pay ammunition .. for the lower levels), PI just generates after the first investment of some ISK, scouting .. salvaging ..... There is only input but no output ... so EVE's slow death is because is drowning in ISK :) Purposed sinks: - Roids only spawn over a week (better over a sub-period) - missions where you can actually loose a ship - fees for everything you do short of being on (player)own(ed) station - taxes that not depend on standing - stop of using PLEX .. just remove And yes I know .. now the flame wars begin YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3136	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:25:00 - [16] - Quote Emma Royd wrote: The problem with nullsec (again looking at the recruitment forums) is it's nearly all PvP which is an isk sink, ships get assploded and need to be replaced, and not much industry goes on, I could be (and quite often am) wrong about this, but you don't often see industry corps recruiting for nullsec. There is huge potential to make isk in null but there's the higher risk of losing it in logistics if you do it wrong (you do scout before you jump don't you? ) If you mean in terms of producing things, it's cheaper in highsec, definitely you can use station slots very cheaply. Now jump freightering. Yes, it can be trouble sometimes, but a good jump freighter pilot can bring in tons of hulls. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Frank Otichoda HappyGoLucky Mining Co 0	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:27:00 - [17] - Quote Ship loss doesn't take ISK out of the game. And mining roids doesn't create isk. The current isk sinks barely effect the isk faucets.yea there's more variety in sinks than faucets, but the amount the sinks do combined barely touch the combined faucets
James Amril-Kesh RAZOR Alliance 3050	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:31:00 - [18] - Quote Frank Otichoda wrote: Ship loss doesn't take ISK out of the game. Correct. Ship loss ADDS isk to the game. Abu Tarynnia wrote: Purposed sinks: - Roids only spawn over a week (better over a sub-period) - missions where you can actually loose a ship - fees for everything you do short of being on (player)own(ed) station - taxes that not depend on standing - stop of using PLEX .. just remove - Asteroid spawning has nothing to do with isk sinks or faucets. - See above. - More fees might work, depends on how they're done. - Same as with fees - PLEX is not an isk faucet, which your post here seems to indicate Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm
TharOkha 0asis Group 480	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:34:00 - [19] - Quote Abu Tarynnia wrote: There is only input but no output ... so EVE's slow death is because is drowning in ISK :) Purposed sinks: - Roids only spawn over a week (better over a sub-period) - missions where you can actually loose a ship - fees for everything you do short of being on (player)own(ed) station - taxes that not depend on standing - stop of using PLEX .. just remove And yes I know .. now the flame wars begin It seems that you have no idea what isk sinks mean GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥
Thomas Gore Blackfyre Enterprise 136	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:50:00 - [20] - Quote TharOkha wrote: Speaking of sinks, it would be much better if we reduce faucets, rather than increasing sinks. Remove NPC bounties and replace them with LPs.... problem solved. I'm pretty sure this would work. Concord LPs instead of ISK bounties. Coupled with the fact that LP stores are also ISK sinks this change would be massive.
Lexmana 808	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:57:00 - [21] - Quote Thomas Gore wrote: TharOkha wrote: Speaking of sinks, it would be much better if we reduce faucets, rather than increasing sinks. Remove NPC bounties and replace them with LPs.... problem solved. I'm pretty sure this would work. Concord LPs instead of ISK bounties. Coupled with the fact that LP stores are also ISK sinks this change would be massive. It would be massive for sure but what would you do when all the liquid ISK in game has been sunk? Too much sink is in no way better than too much faucet. In fact, it is actually worse.
Frank Otichoda HappyGoLucky Mining Co 0	Posted - 2013.01.02 10:38:00 - [22] - Quote The faucets, even with having missions give more lp/less isk would still be adding more isk to the game then it takes, but would lessen the amount. Or maybe increase sinks over faucets until economy balances out. Maybe make a "if you have (input amount) of isk you get taxed (input amount). LETS TAX THE RICH!!!! DOWN WITH THE RICH!!! Ahem.... Sorry..... Evil Democrats...
Abu Tarynnia Abu Tarynnia Corporation 71	Posted - 2013.01.02 10:43:00 - [23] - Quote Frank Otichoda wrote: The faucets, even with having missions give more lp/less isk would still be adding more isk to the game then it takes, but would lessen the amount. Or maybe increase sinks over faucets until economy balances out. Maybe make a "if you have (input amount) of isk you get taxed (input amount). LETS TAX THE RICH!!!! DOWN WITH THE RICH!!! Ahem.... Sorry..... Evil Democrats... +1 ... since I always struggle to get the next ship and test this and that I am usually short of money .. 1billion should be fine ;) Edit: I hope you only count account money .. not total value ... otherwise -1 !!!! YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
Ottersmacker Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 326	Posted - 2013.01.02 10:46:00 - [24] - Quote transmogrification i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
Thomas Gore Blackfyre Enterprise 137	Posted - 2013.01.02 10:54:00 - [25] - Quote Lexmana wrote: Thomas Gore wrote: TharOkha wrote: Speaking of sinks, it would be much better if we reduce faucets, rather than increasing sinks. Remove NPC bounties and replace them with LPs.... problem solved. I'm pretty sure this would work. Concord LPs instead of ISK bounties. Coupled with the fact that LP stores are also ISK sinks this change would be massive. It would be massive for sure but what would you do when all the liquid ISK in game has been sunk? Too much sink is in no way better than too much faucet. In fact, it is actually worse. As long as there are ways to make ISK (i.e. you gain more than you sink at any given activity), the amount of ISK in the game would never reach zero. Still, you are correct that it needs to balance out or items will become so expensive (in regards to liquid ISK at hand) that the market will stagnate and producing some items will become unprofitable. However, the devs have all the power in their hand to both monitor the balance of ISK in the game and adjust the sinks and faucets. In short term the game would only benefit from losing total ISK from the market. There is just too much of it in the game.
Lexmana 808	Posted - 2013.01.02 10:57:00 - [26] - Quote Frank Otichoda wrote: The faucets, even with having missions give more lp/less isk would still be adding more isk to the game then it takes, but would lessen the amount. Or maybe increase sinks over faucets until economy balances out. Actually, making bounties completely payed out in LP instead would remove about half of all the ISK created in-game and make it a sink instead. It would create a negative ISK flow in EVE and eventually kill the game. Interestingly, faucets and sinks should not be in absolute balance , because ISK that are stockpiled or left on in-active accounts act as a soft-sink. Though, it can upset the economy when people for some reason starts to release it and the velocity of money increase to cause inflation.
Lolar55 Titan Core 61	Posted - 2013.01.02 11:11:00 - [27] - Quote Lvl 4 missions are isk sink too.Ppl in golems and tengus dying to rats ain't rare thing.
Frank Otichoda HappyGoLucky Mining Co 0	Posted - 2013.01.02 11:11:00 - [28] - Quote Oh, forgot another isk sink: Somer Blink... Lol jking Lolar, how are golems and tengus dieing an ISK sink?
Lexmana 808	Posted - 2013.01.02 11:12:00 - [29] - Quote Lolar55 wrote: Lvl 4 missions are isk sink too.Ppl in golems and tengus dying to rats ain't rare thing. That would make it an even bigger faucet due to insurance payout
Brooks Puuntai Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 991	Posted - 2013.01.02 11:40:00 - [30] - Quote Not this topic again. -Switch HighSec missions to LP rewards only. -Reduce refining rates on highsec stations(so only 0.0 and 0.1-0.3 Lowsec can achieve 100% refine rate with skills) -Increase research/manufacturing costs in high sec by a marginal rate(2-5% increase) -Increase tax rates on market transactions, nothing astronomical though. -Reduce insurance payouts again. -Revert the anomaly nerf in 0.0, but reduce the bounty amounts and add more drops. to help make 0.0 more self-sufficient. -Add a tax to the bounty system.

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