Increasing manufacturing costs signifigantly in High Sec would be a good start, but that would make manufacturing low-cost goods totally unprofitable. Solution - seed all low-cost goods - another ISK sink right there.

Haha I don't want to nerf high sec in any way. Just trying to figure out what types of isk sinks eve could use. To much isk is being generated with out much of a way to take it out of the game

Maybe a wear and tear on ships similar to how overloading damages them. But at say 1/100th the damage. Would have to repair modules every so often.

Increasing manufacturing costs signifigantly in High Sec would be a good start, but that would make manufacturing low-cost goods totally unprofitable. Solution - seed all low-cost goods - another ISK sink right there.

Isk comes from bounties, incursions, ( I want you say faction warfare but that's loyalty points, so more adding items to the game than isk), mission rewards. Think that may be it.

Could make incursions pay loyalty points instead of isk.



Maybe Concord requires a tax (like insurance). Depending on how much you pay determines how fast they respond. (100 mill a month for 1.0 sec speed, 10 mill for 0.6 speed, free for 0.5 speed) or I dunno, something along those lines.

Isk comes from bounties, incursions, ( I want you say faction warfare but that's loyalty points, so more adding items to the game than isk), mission rewards. Think that may be it.

Could make incursions pay loyalty points instead of isk.

In terms of ISK sinks, the burden should fall on high sec. Null pays massive ISK sinks in the form of Sov. The trouble is low reward in high sec is the trade off for low sink requirements. I don't know what the new POS revamp will look like. It can be an ISK sink but in order for that to happen, they need to make them more than just an arm of the player driven economy and I don't know how they do that in EVE because the player driven economy is the only one that matters.

So, what are the ISK sinks of eve? Things that completely take ISK out of the game. For a while I've always considered ship loss as an ISK sink but it really isn't. It takes the minerals out of the game, but the isk you used to buy it went to someone else...

So what things in eve actually take ISK out of the game?

The problem with nullsec (again looking at the recruitment forums) is it's nearly all PvP which is an isk sink, ships get assploded and need to be replaced, and not much industry goes on, I could be (and quite often am) wrong about this, but you don't often see industry corps recruiting for nullsec.

There is huge potential to make isk in null but there's the higher risk of losing it in logistics if you do it wrong (you do scout before you jump don't you? )

Ship loss doesn't take ISK out of the game.

Purposed sinks:
- Roids only spawn over a week (better over a sub-period)
- missions where you can actually loose a ship
- fees for everything you do short of being on (player)own(ed) station
- taxes that not depend on standing
- stop of using PLEX .. just remove

There is only input but no output ... so EVE's slow death is because is drowning in ISK :)

Purposed sinks:
- Roids only spawn over a week (better over a sub-period)
- missions where you can actually loose a ship
- fees for everything you do short of being on (player)own(ed) station
- taxes that not depend on standing
- stop of using PLEX .. just remove

And yes I know .. now the flame wars begin

Speaking of sinks, it would be much better if we reduce faucets, rather than increasing sinks. Remove NPC bounties and replace them with LPs.... problem solved.

I'm pretty sure this would work. Concord LPs instead of ISK bounties. Coupled with the fact that LP stores are also ISK sinks this change would be massive.

The faucets, even with having missions give more lp/less isk would still be adding more isk to the game then it takes, but would lessen the amount. Or maybe increase sinks over faucets until economy balances out.

Maybe make a "if you have (input amount) of isk you get taxed (input amount). LETS TAX THE RICH!!!! DOWN WITH THE RICH!!!

Ahem.... Sorry..... Evil Democrats...

It would be massive for sure but what would you do when all the liquid ISK in game has been sunk? Too much sink is in no way better than too much faucet. In fact, it is actually worse.

The faucets, even with having missions give more lp/less isk would still be adding more isk to the game then it takes, but would lessen the amount. Or maybe increase sinks over faucets until economy balances out.

Lvl 4 missions are isk sink too.Ppl in golems and tengus dying to rats ain't rare thing.

This post has been brought to you by GîÿC and GîÿV

Dirty Mac using hippie.

But I think you get the deposit back on courier missions, so wouldn't that be ISK neutral for the most part?

I guess if you're just counting failed Courier missions, it's a teeny sink (and I've gone and answered my own question).

Yes, it's that possibility that I want to account for GÇö you'll notice that it shows up both as a sink and a faucet.

In general, I'd say that it's better not to try to GÇ£balance outGÇ¥ faucets and sinks that are meant to come in pairs like that because there's always the chance that they don't. It's the same as with insurance: it is designed to be a faucet, and overall, that's what it is. This doesn't change the fact that you can easily sink a crapton of ISK into it and never get a single ISK out, thus it appears in both places.

It's less a list of what activity makes the ISK supply go up or down in general, but of what specific action causes a point increase or decrease in that supply.

PLEX is another big ISK sink. Buying a plex with ISK and adding it as game time takes a good half a billion ISK out the system. Buying one with $ and selling it just gives you someone else's ISK.

PLEX is another big ISK sink. Buying a plex with ISK and adding it as game time takes a good half a billion ISK out the system. Buying one with $ and selling it just gives you someone else's ISK.

PLEX is another big ISK sink. Buying a plex with ISK and adding it as game time takes a good half a billion ISK out the system. Buying one with $ and selling it just gives you someone else's ISK.

I'd be curious if you "nerf hi sec!" idjuts considered things like the PI taxes and the cost of manufacturing T1 Meta 0 items for T2 manufacturing in your "added costs" mantra for high sec? Ya know, with the exception of a few items like drones, T1 meta 0 drops are over, now requiring their manufacture and adding to the cost calculations for T2 items that require them.

:

........

• GM Actions: Removal of bought ISK, Removal of insurance after ship reimbursement
......

This post has been brought to you by GîÿC and GîÿV

Increasing manufacturing costs signifigantly in High Sec would be a good start, but that would make manufacturing low-cost goods totally unprofitable. Solution - seed all low-cost goods - another ISK sink right there.

CCP has said the biggest single sink is the LP store. Thus an effective way to buff sinks is to buff the LP store.

I'd be curious if you "nerf hi sec!" idjuts

considered things like the PI taxes and the cost of manufacturing T1 Meta 0 items for T2 manufacturing in your "added costs" mantra for high sec? Ya know, with the exception of a few items like drones, T1 meta 0 drops are over, now requiring their manufacture and adding to the cost calculations for T2 items that require them.

But then, you'll say this isn't enough. So once again, I've just wasted another 45 seconds of my life in a fail troll thread. Good job, Ginger.

Or better yet, just create a nerfing forum and let all the pointless bickering happen there.

As I said in the last one of these, don't forget the rage quitters that leave without letting people haz their stuffs.

Remove NPC bounties and replace them with LPs...

As ideas go, thats actually not that bad.

One radical idea that I've seen that I like (though I can't remember the source), is to remove as many ISK sources from HS activities as possible. Missions pay out LP only, HS rats pay out LP, etc. The concept is essentially that ISK doesn't properly act as a currency in EVE, so treat it like the commodity it is and have Null export ISK while importing other things.

Having seen the mention of removing NPC bounties for LPs, I would entertain that there could also be ship crews for LP, with either an LP or ISK upkeep. Or a hybrid, payable in LP, once you're out, ISK.

Basic crews could be lost with a ship, more advanced ones would have "clones" (a la soliders in D514) and could be assigned to the new ship. They would cost more of course.

One radical idea that I've seen that I like (though I can't remember the source), is to remove as many ISK sources from HS activities as possible. Missions pay out LP only, HS rats pay out LP, etc. The concept is essentially that ISK doesn't properly act as a currency in EVE, so treat it like the commodity it is and have Null export ISK while importing other things.

1. Given that CCP is working to constantly reduce the amount of NPC influence in the market (and that this is a higher priority that removing ISK sinks, See: PI), how do you set up player manufacturing of the crews such that they remain an ISK sink? (Maybe just have the crew upkeep be the ISK sink, and the manufacturing be player operated, though that brings with it other issues of whether you have to pay upkeep on inactive crews and, if so, what happens to crews on market or in contracts, and what's stopping people from escaping the crew upkeep by keeping their crews locked away like that?).

2. Combat bonuses whose benefits are not lost when you lose your ship and cannot be stolen are bad, mmmkay. No clones for crews.

3. If you're introducing this as a way to create an ISK sink, why turn around and suggest removing the ISK sinky part?


Other than that, I think that crew slots could have some merit.

- stop of using PLEX .. just remove

PLEX is +25% profit over their regular subscriptions. Sadly, CCP too greedy

A bounty is a bounty is a bounty.

If bounties need to go in highsec, then they need to go everywhere else aswell.
nerf all the sec's, not just 1, as that is unbalanced and biased and would contribute to poor gameplay.

There should be no distinction between Highsec, Losec or Nulsec other than what we the playerbase create. (well the scaling in value terms needs to stay ofc )

A bounty is a bounty is a bounty.

If bounties need to go in highsec, then they need to go everywhere else aswell.
nerf all the sec's, not just 1, as that is unbalanced and biased and would contribute to poor gameplay.

There should be no distinction between Highsec, Losec or Nulsec other than what we the playerbase create. (well the scaling in value terms needs to stay ofc )

I'm not sure where a lot of the isk is coming from, I seem to remember that Incursions got their payout's nerfed a bit, but no doubt that was a big part of the isk generated when they were at full payout.

It's very important to consider that the ISK faucets cannot be less than the ISK sinks. If more ISK is leaving than entering, gradually everything will come to a grinding halt as the economy collapses under it's own stress and there's no ISK left.

This would be hilarious to see, just because the flood of tears would be so epic that I'd have to start building an Ark.

PLEX is +25% profit over their regular subscriptions. Sadly, CCP too greedy for that to ever happen. In fact I'm surprised they haven't just gotten rid of subscriptions altogether and started forcing people to buy PLEX just so they can put another foot on the end of their yacht.

Also, the biggest ISK sink ever is being introduced next year: Dust514.

Currently there is no manufacturing for that game, and from what the dev's have said, its going to be a little while before they completely intertwine the two economies, but the straight transfer of ISK from EVE to Dust will be absolutely possible. And since everything in Dust is seeded from NPC orders, each suit/tank/rifle/grenade purchased, and then consumed, will remove ISK from the game.

...the "replace HS ISK bounties with LP" proposal is not meant to be a nerf to HS. It's meant to reduce the inflationary pressure on the EVE economy.

Insurance is a pretty big faucet too.

This would be hilarious to see, just because the flood of tears would be so epic that I'd have to start building an Ark.

PLEX is +25% profit over their regular subscriptions. Sadly, CCP too greedy for that to ever happen. In fact I'm surprised they haven't just gotten rid of subscriptions altogether and started forcing people to buy PLEX just so they can put another foot on the end of their yacht.

Seeing things over the past 3 years has me convinced that bounds on mineral sources and mechanics tend to have a stronger influence on price inflation that isk injection/sinks. I really wish though that we could get more granular and detailed information regarding market performance though. Maybe then I could see what is being referred to here.

It works pretty well when you drill into the numbers, though. LP redemption from missions is one of the biggest sinks in the game already, at about 5-6T/mo. Mission rewards and time bonuses are a faucet of similar size, so those already cancel. Meanwhile, the bounties faucet is in the vicinity of 25T/mo. I have no way to tell how much of that is nullsec ratting and how much of it is highsec missions, except to know that the number of rats killed in the busiest highsec regions exceeded that same number in the busiest nullsec regions by a factor of ten. Given the similarity of anomaly rats to mission rats, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say, hey, 90% of the bounties faucet comes from highsec.

But here, we'll assume it's merely half, and that 25T/mo remains accurate.

Seeing things over the past 3 years has me convinced that bounds on mineral sources and mechanics tend to have a stronger influence on price inflation that isk injection/sinks. I really wish though that we could get more granular and detailed information regarding market performance though. Maybe then I could see what is being referred to here.

The problem is the NPC government is being ran like the USA government where it just prints more money. What we need is some way for NPC pay outs to be funded by NPC taxes with a much smaller amount of created isk.

How can we decently call "Margin Trading" ?

So much isk ...

The market circulation of objects is done with isk and is many, many times the 25T monthly income. ie people seriously underestimate how much isk gets sunk in fees.

As a small fry ship maker, I used to circulate 3 bil 3x per week, and as that circulation was a full buy and sell, I effectively created 18B in transactions per week, or about 80B per month, for some 300mil in fees (of which 150mil is on my books).

81.9bn spent on transaction taxes, 95.9bn on broker fees. Player owned stations earned their owners 6bn in broker fees.

According to my data, 18th Oct 2010: Broker fee -46.78bn ISK (also +3bn isk, to outpost owners), -42.2bn ISK Trans tax.

1.98tn ISK spent on broker fees in Jan 2012.
1.75tn ISK spent on transaction taxes in Jan 2012.

At the fanfest, CCP stated that they wanted to make POS's something that everyone, from the solo miner, to the roaming pirate, to the major alliance would want, and scale accordingly. Hence, use THEM as the ISK sinks.

So, first, imagine that all the refining in NPC stations is made uniformly 15~30%, and manufacturing and research fees were made astronomical. Allow easily accessible, though still costly, modules to small POS's that would be able to get to perfect refining, or do research effectively, etc.

Additionally, this gives people a reason to actually leave NPC stations, especially if you are able to dock at a POS (which can explode).

That's not inflation, that's the costs in one sector going up. While ship Hulls and T1 items went up dramatically after the drone poo nerf, T2 modules (which use negligible amounts of Minerals) stayed pretty steady.

"Stuff that I buy is more expensive" doesn't necessarily indicate inflation.

That wasn't a "Stuff that I buy is more expensive" observation, but rather a "What is negative market influence that this conversation is trying to avoid"? Every effect presented seems to have other causes readily available to attribute to it.

There are a good number of suggestions, including your own quoted, that would cause a great deal of change in the way isk is generated and moved. I'm simply trying to understand what the endpoint is if we do nothing. What is the disaster that we are trying to avert? And why hasn't it happened already (or has it)?

EVE's monetary supply is increasing by a tremendous amount every month with little if anything regulating it (Ripard Teg had a theory that CCP allowed FW Plexing to go on as long as it did because of the staggering amount of ISK it was sinking out of the economy).

One day.

Another day.

A whole month, although that first number would include fees to outpost owners which obviously aren't sunk. Subtract around 5-8% on account of that, if the daily numbers are any indication.

My point is that while fees and taxes are undeniably in the top 5 isk sinks by size (Diagoras even said so) they're not as big as you think they are and pretty damn miniscule compared to faucets, especially the bounties faucet.