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Retnor Kilani
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Posted - 2005.06.10 16:35:00 -
[1]
There has been alot of talk about CCP getting rid of instas and bookmarks just so you guys can keep the pirates happy apparently. If instas and bookmarks are dropped from the game, I for one will quit. It will follow a concept of makin the bad guys happy. And I'm already sick of it. If you guys want a bunch of people leavin the game and losin you money, go ahead and do it. You guys keep tryin to 'fix' things that don't need any attention and you continue to do it with concepts that use more server resources and will increase lag (hence the coming missile nerf). So figure it out guys, if you need advice on business relations and how to actually MAKE MORE money to keep your little universa goin, ....call me.
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Mortarfy
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Posted - 2005.06.10 16:50:00 -
[2]
I myself have read such discussions and how those who use instas are nearly invulnerable, yet even though you can still easily get a guy using instas from the gate that they're jumping from. To make insta users less invulnerable CCP is going to beef up the availablity of mobile warp disruptors which I'm OK with since that is a tool which badly needs to be available for 0.0 pirates since what I mainly use instas for is to cut down major loss of time which you normally have when travelling the normal way (no using instas).
I've also heard some say that because there are so many using instas that it is overburden the servers which I find is a pretty pathetic argument and maybe that should fix that little problem by putting the load on to the client more.
Instas take a lot of time to create and very dangerous for those who do it in 0.0 space so they can in the near future use those instas to attempt to safely and speedly get from point A to B without wasting time and without giving a huge opportunity to pirates to gank them.
So if CCP ever comes up with some kind of really pathetic and horrible replacement for instas such as that one guy's suggestion to move to training even more skills (geez guy don't you think we're overburden with too many skills to train to begin with?!) then I will most definitely give up on this game and go else where.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2005.06.10 18:53:00 -
[3]
Just a case of trying to fix something that isn't broken. They've been in the game since beta, and they're fine the way they are. The reason no one has been able to come with a good alternative to instas, including CCP, is that they're already the best method to get the functionality we're looking for.
Honestly, a single medium warp bubble and your insta bookmark is now completely useless. A single interceptor on the jump in side of the gate and your insta is completely useless. Why whining gate campers can't put an interceptor on the other side of the gate to catch insta users is beyond me.
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Doc Punkiller
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Posted - 2005.06.28 12:35:00 -
[4]
True...
I hope that CCP will not remove BMs but rather optimize them, enhance them so that we can be 'grouped' and so reduce the load of the database.
Official reasons for removing them are not really gameplay. Everyone knows that even with bm you can be killed in no time. The true reason is more a load problem.
I dont know how many bookmarks are in the database, but considering region wide bookmarks available on escrow (like 500 or 600 BM each region) that every one copy in a folder, CCP may group those BMs and mutualize them.
Each player has a pointer on this group of BM, this group of BM has a single occurence in the db (and could be cached in your server) as long as the group is not altered.
More than that, BMs usally are small (3 numbers, a title and sometime a description) but there's alot. Grouping them should reduce the loading time by reducing the per BM overhead.
This i just a small sugestion and a lot more can be done to optimize them, and even ease the use.
Copy a set of BM is just create a single object that has a reference on the genuine BM set, increase the genuine BM link count. Removing a BM set is just decreasing the genuine BM link count. Of course, you can deny update on this BM group, because update needs de-mutualization... I'm sure that you can find a way to handle this properly. Think of unix hardlinks... save space, save speed...
Not more hours of BM copying. No more extra load...
Everybody happy.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.06.28 13:39:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Doc Punkiller
Copy a set of BM is just create a single object that has a reference on the genuine BM set, increase the genuine BM link count. Removing a BM set is just decreasing the genuine BM link count. Of course, you can deny update on this BM group, because update needs de-mutualization... I'm sure that you can find a way to handle this properly. Think of unix hardlinks... save space, save speed...
While this could be applied to sets of BM's that are just copied all over the place, it wouldn't extend to apply to the 1001 different instajumps different people have made to the same gate, but are all marginally diffent. I can't see some form of automatic mutualisation that locks your BMs being at all popular either. The only way this would truly help is if self-bookmarking was nerfed, and CCP made avaliable via some means a set official BMs.
Of course, the main load problem with BMs isn't so much the DB space they take up - each one is just 3 doubles, 1 integer and 2 strings (X,Y,Z coords, system ID and BM name and note). The trouble is processing them all, and how often they need to be processed. The main culprit is the right-click menu, and all the filtering to ensure only the right BM's show up on it. Caching the data client-side may help, but it would be a lot of effort to do that in a secure and reliable fashion.
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Doc Punkiller
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Posted - 2005.06.28 16:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Matthew
While this could be applied to sets of BM's that are just copied all over the place, it wouldn't extend to apply to the 1001 different instajumps different people have made to the same gate, but are all marginally diffent. I can't see some form of automatic mutualisation that locks your BMs being at all popular either. The only way this would truly help is if self-bookmarking was nerfed, and CCP made avaliable via some means a set official BMs.
I agree; auto-mutualisation like file using MD5 will not work here.
I was thinking of 'manual mutualization': If CCP permit creation of bookmarks 'packages' (that may or may not be locked after 'packaging') we should be able to mutualize properly.
I think in general that a lot of bookmarks are created by copying BMs. I see 2 main source of BMs copies: your alliance/corporation BMs and the escrow BMs.
If CCP create a BM package, escrow sellers will create for example a package for all genesis jumps; your corporation may create a "safe spots" package.
All those packages should be handled faster by the database (dealing with only one object, instead of hundreds), and by the client i guess.
For the Bms that you create for yourself you may keep them in one of your own 'package' or as standalone BMs... I guess that BMs shared by only one player are not the problem for CCP.
Originally by: Matthew
Of course, the main load problem with BMs isn't so much the DB space they take up - each one is just 3 doubles, 1 integer and 2 strings (X,Y,Z coords, system ID and BM name and note). The trouble is processing them all, and how often they need to be processed. The main culprit is the right-click menu, and all the filtering to ensure only the right BM's show up on it. Caching the data client-side may help, but it would be a lot of effort to do that in a secure and reliable fashion.
I totally agree with that...
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trumansho
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Posted - 2005.06.29 00:06:00 -
[7]
all i can say is im eagerly awaiting for another game to come out.
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prathe
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Posted - 2005.06.29 01:31:00 -
[8]
getting rid of instas is probably the single worst thing that can be done , honestly it would be like taking out all the special requirements to build tech 2 ships and dumping the bpo's for them on the market cheap . it would ruin all the hard work people have put in to making them .
i dont think that any  who knows what he's doing has lost out that badly on potential targets . i have had to on occasion gank haulers and interupt shipping during a war and for all the kills i got sooooo many more escaped . if anybody serious thinks that this is an exploit or that insta's represent an unfair advantage . well fine lets get rid of warp core stabilizers too because wah he escaped wah ! and well shield hardeners have to go awww he tanked and hit AB and made it thru wah ! and armor hardeners must go ,.... pirates will always have a advantage over travellers instas are just sauce for the goose insta users die all the time .
but if this is really a db issue within ccp WAH get a better one
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Araviel
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Posted - 2005.06.29 07:40:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Retnor Kilani
It will follow a concept of makin the bad guys happy.
ever been thinking about that it helps the ones hunting the bad guys aswell?
EPIC Recruitment post
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AvanCade
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Posted - 2005.06.29 09:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Retnor Kilani
There has been alot of talk about CCP getting rid of instas and bookmarks just so you guys can keep the pirates happy apparently. If instas and bookmarks are dropped from the game, I for one will quit. It will follow a concept of makin the bad guys happy. And I'm already sick of it. If you guys want a bunch of people leavin the game and losin you money, go ahead and do it. You guys keep tryin to 'fix' things that don't need any attention and you continue to do it with concepts that use more server resources and will increase lag (hence the coming missile nerf). So figure it out guys, if you need advice on business relations and how to actually MAKE MORE money to keep your little universa goin, ....call me.
read the devlog better.
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corporal hicks
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Posted - 2005.06.29 10:52:00 -
[11]
Well its not going to do any good from next patch anyway try insta into a large mobile warp distrupter and any big alliance is going to have these things, so really nerfing the BM's at this point is only going to cause travel to be slower and hurt the empire haulers and traders as any self respecting group of Pvp people will have at least a med bubble or a large.
So I dont see anything wrong with the BM's to be honest.
" Stay Frosty "
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Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.06.29 11:34:00 -
[12]
- Bubbles don't work in empire. And besides they are a broken patch for a broken system. Fix the system properly instead.
- Having 5000 bms (and that is only my empire ones  ) gives me already a 2 sec lag when rightclicking in space.
- Instas divides the players in the 'haves' and the 'have-nots' instead of the ones with actual skills and the ones without.
- Fast travel might be a blessing for the players but it's a curse for the game. Mobility has turned the galaxy into a frikkin' village. If you travel in a Interceptor you're almost as fast as with instas anyway. Stop whining your bs or indy doens't keep up with that withouth instas: It's not supposed to.
Spacerats recruiting! |
Doc Punkiller
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Posted - 2005.06.29 12:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tobiaz
- Bubbles don't work in empire. And besides they are a broken patch for a broken system. Fix the system properly instead.
Bubbles can be technically fixed i think, so it's just a matter of time/will and has nothing to do with BMs load on the server.
Originally by: Tobiaz
- Having 5000 bms (and that is only my empire ones ) gives me already a 2 sec lag when rightclicking in space.
Very true. See my proposal for optimisation...
Originally by: Tobiaz
- Instas divides the players in the 'haves' and the 'have-nots' instead of the ones with actual skills and the ones without.
It's easy to have them... Buy them on escrow, enter a corporation, make them yourself...
Originally by: Tobiaz
- Fast travel might be a blessing for the players but it's a curse for the game. Mobility has turned the galaxy into a frikkin' village. If you travel in a Interceptor you're almost as fast as with instas anyway. Stop whining your bs or indy doens't keep up with that withouth instas: It's not supposed to.
Whining about what ? Did you ever try the elephantin haul level 4 mission ? Without bm it'll take you a lot and a lot of hours even with MK5... Travel time is far too long without BMs and encourage you to use afk traveling because it's far too boring.
There is nothing wrong with instas right now, exept the load issue which must be addressed technically, not using gameplay tricks. Imagine if the solution for turrets and shields graphical effect lag in fleet battle were corrected by simply removing from the game items that produce such effects ! That's exactly the same situation here...
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Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.06.29 15:28:00 -
[14]
when the New World Order comes, i don't there will be so many negative problems of removing instas.
there will be less chokepoints and more access points to <0.4 and 0.0.
getting from one side of the map, is going to be considerable quicker in a frigate than a battleship. gate ganking squads are going to think twice before moving onto fresh territory, which means word will spread of their activies, and people will be warned to watch out.
flying frigates and cruisers will now have an extra advantage in that it helps you get quicker from a to b.
if you still want to insta jump, you can still perhaps do it on the fly, with a corp mate going ahead.
players who are prepared to co-operate with each other and break any blockades will reap the benefits.
i've never ever pirated someone or ganked someone, though i have often been on the recieving end, i think instabms are a case of meta-gaming, and ruin the balance of the game. however, i do think the new world order needs putting into place before there removal.
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Silveressa
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Posted - 2005.06.30 08:41:00 -
[15]
BM's are a serious asset for players that don't have a lot of time to play. With bm's I can move my bs 10-15 jumps in a few minutes compared to almost 10-20+ minutes otherwise (boring) and thus spend a lot more time actually playing eve then watching my ship slooowly fly towards yet another gate in secure space.
tbh travel time sucks in secure space, (when not at war) and I would rather spend my time in eve doing something more fun that sitting there waiting to get somewhere where I can have more fun.
Now warp bubbles are in use perhaps just lowering the warp to distance to maybe 5000m instead of 15km might be more pratical.
Or how about a module you can fit that's some kind of guidance computer? It increases your jump accuracy by x amount of km. (base it off of the navigation skill to use perhaps) This would be the most simple solution and would keep game balance since it would take up a slot that you would otherwise be using for another module.
Either way getting rid of bm;s isn't the solution, providing a viable alternative to needing 10k of them is what's needed.
"Lead by example or get of my way." |
Aitrus
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Posted - 2005.06.30 09:21:00 -
[16]
Originally by: AvanCade
Originally by: Retnor Kilani
There has been alot of talk about CCP getting rid of instas and bookmarks just so you guys can keep the pirates happy apparently. If instas and bookmarks are dropped from the game, I for one will quit. It will follow a concept of makin the bad guys happy. And I'm already sick of it. If you guys want a bunch of people leavin the game and losin you money, go ahead and do it. You guys keep tryin to 'fix' things that don't need any attention and you continue to do it with concepts that use more server resources and will increase lag (hence the coming missile nerf). So figure it out guys, if you need advice on business relations and how to actually MAKE MORE money to keep your little universa goin, ....call me.
read the devlog better.
Agreed. for the OP - www.rif.org
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Elfaen Ethenwe
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Posted - 2005.06.30 09:34:00 -
[17]
removing instas will be a big hit with the nerf bat.
I wont leave safe space unless im with a 50 strong fleet.
the antiexodus back to empire will be shocking to behold.
when moving fleets people will use covert ops or ceptors to make immeadite instas. People with time and money will have 2nd accounts just so they can setup warp to points.
They claim they want to remove instas to remove invunrability during travel.
just make it so that jumping takes some time when you are at the gate.
<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->
Together we Gank, Divided we Pop.
<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<->-<-> |
Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Silveressa
BM's are a serious asset for players that don't have a lot of time to play. With bm's I can move my bs 10-15 jumps in a few minutes compared to almost 10-20+ minutes otherwise (boring) and thus spend a lot more time actually playing eve then watching my ship slooowly fly towards yet another gate in secure space.
easy solution to that, just fly something a bit faster such as an elite frigate, and at least slap a MWD on it otherwise.
i think maybe making warping in at 10km could be good though, perhaps some automatic activation of afterburner/microwarp drive could also be good, on saving on repetitive tasks.
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Silveressa
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Posted - 2005.06.30 11:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Masu'di
easy solution to that, just fly something a bit faster such as an elite frigate, and at least slap a MWD on it otherwise.
That would work in some situations, but if you're a barge pilot or trader, without instas your time in eve becomes a serious snore fest while you wait for your fully loaded hauler to crawl to the gate at 125m/s-160m/s or your barge to travel the the 2-4 jumps to go mining with some friends.
Even a bs is a lengthy wait time jumping 2-3 systems to do a mission. (docking in the system the mission is in to just equip/unequip a mwd is a royal pain in the butt)
"Lead by example or get of my way." |
Princess Skye
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Posted - 2005.07.04 16:10:00 -
[20]
If I can't use instas after the patch then I too am going to quit playing - I have better things to do with my time than waiting at a gate for 5 - 10 minutes to be killed with a cargo of 30m and expanders worth the same - I would lose all my money in days - and as trading is my main occupation in Eve it would be pointless to play anymore.
As for all you pirates looking forward to having no instas so you can gank us traders with ease then just a word of caution - where are you going to go once you have killed someone in 0.1-0.4 space - without bms you won't be able to wait in deadspace anymore
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