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Shards
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Posted - 2005.06.10 22:00:00 -
[1]
IMO i think this bouns is poor, the ship has 4 mid slots witch is used for tracking and sensor boosters so Shield tanking really goes out the window with this ship, for pvp anyway.
would it not be a good idea to change this bouns to +5% speed per lvl or tracking maybe?
speed bouns coz IMO i think it is the best defencive bounse for minmatar
tracking bouns coz extra tracking speed is always good for artillary
ive looked around the forum abit and i cant see any other posts from people thinking that the shield boost bouns is poor, so maybe its just me but feel free to have ya say and rip me to bits if need be.
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2005.06.10 22:03:00 -
[2]
Welcome to Minmatar 'versatility'.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.10 22:06:00 -
[3]
It works very well in pve, but its definitely useless in pvp.
Tracking, velocity or damage bonus would be much better for it.
Problem is, the devs were stuck on simmetry when they did BCs, with 1 gun bonus and 1 defensive bonus each.
Prophecy/Ferox get 5% to armor/shield resists, and a cap use/optimal bonus
Brutix/Cyclone get 5% to repairer/booster amount, and a damage/rof bonus.
Other people have asked to either have it changed to an 8-5-3 ship or have the shield boost bonus dropped, but it looks like its just not in the cards.
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 Originally by: Gnauton
It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
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Commoner
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Posted - 2005.06.10 22:10:00 -
[4]
it looks like as if the dev's wanted BC's to be used as meatshields for some of the harder lvl 3's.
But if they really wanted to do that i'd say change that bonuse to either a 5% shield and armor resist or a 7,5% tracking bonus. Face it, the cyclone needs a very nice bonus :)
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Liet Traep
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Posted - 2005.06.11 01:32:00 -
[5]
I think the intent was to give two BS's really nice defensive bonuses and the other two good offensive bonuses. Amarr and Caldari get great resists but no bonuses affecting damage. Minmatar and Gallente get crap defensive bonuses but get a RoF bonus and a damage bonus respectively. You're not supposed to tank those I think but gank with them. And with the missile changes and heavy missiles getting some loving the cyclone is going to be a much better ship able to dispense more DPS and fulfill it's mandate of firepower before everything else. I'll still be flying my prophecy though. :)
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Al Haquis
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Posted - 2005.06.11 05:41:00 -
[6]
The shield booster bonus is useless.
FIX it Hammer.
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Council Member, Tahiri Warrior
Masuat'aa Forums
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Zaintiraris
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Posted - 2005.06.11 06:10:00 -
[7]
Originally by: keepiru
which reminds me, the brutix has the most turret slots and the 2nd-lowest powergrid
Thats saying VERY LITTLE since there are only four of them in the game. It's not only the 2nd lowest, its the 3rd highest. Weird huh.
---
Originally by: CCP Hammer
This game was so much better back before people knew math.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.11 09:42:00 -
[8]
Edited by: keepiru on 11/06/2005 09:43:12
Originally by: Zaintiraris
Originally by: keepiru
which reminds me, the brutix has the most turret slots and the 2nd-lowest powergrid
Thats saying VERY LITTLE since there are only four of them in the game. It's not only the 2nd lowest, its the 3rd highest. Weird huh.
it also has the worst cpu while having both the highest number of turrets and the turrets that use the most cpu. must i go on? its gimped, i dont think its possible to argue otherwise.
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Originally by: Gnauton
It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.06.11 11:42:00 -
[9]
The shield booster bonus is useless.
Fix it Hammer.
Please...
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.06.11 11:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: keepiru
Edited by: keepiru on 11/06/2005 09:43:12
Originally by: Zaintiraris
Originally by: keepiru
which reminds me, the brutix has the most turret slots and the 2nd-lowest powergrid
Thats saying VERY LITTLE since there are only four of them in the game. It's not only the 2nd lowest, its the 3rd highest. Weird huh.
it also has the worst cpu while having both the highest number of turrets and the turrets that use the most cpu. must i go on? its gimped, i dont think its possible to argue otherwise.
I've said it a 1000 times. Its what CCP calls balance. "Accentuate the negative."
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Admiral Keyes
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Posted - 2005.06.11 11:46:00 -
[11]
Ill be in a cyclone in a few days, i plan on armour tanking it cause itll be easier to tank Sanshas which i fight. Cause that way i can go fast, get in close, release hell and tank like crazy. I agree that the shield bonus is poor and needs changing. Replacing it with a speed bonus or making it a 8-5-3 slot config would solve the problem imo.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.11 12:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Admiral Keyes
Ill be in a cyclone in a few days, i plan on armour tanking it cause itll be easier to tank Sanshas which i fight. Cause that way i can go fast, get in close, release hell and tank like crazy. I agree that the shield bonus is poor and needs changing. Replacing it with a speed bonus or making it a 8-5-3 slot config would solve the problem imo.
Laser users are the only enemies I dust off my prophecy for - easier than changing config. I'm getting 288 hp per boost out of my Large Booster II, and enough pg and cpu spare for t2 425mm ac and heavy launchers when they come out.
It really does tank everything *but* lasers till the cows come home, but from a larger pov it makes no sense.
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Originally by: Gnauton
It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
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Inspiration
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Posted - 2005.06.11 19:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Inspiration on 11/06/2005 19:14:29
In defense of the cyclone, which I used for months before getting a Tempest:
!!! IT R O C K S !!!
The shield boosting rules (in PvE at least), and the damage bonus for the turrets work like a charm to. You can solo all level 3 mission in it, and many level 4 as well! You can tank many BS with the correct shield boosters and two shield hardeners.
Tracking ain't a problem on this ship when used correctly. There are three slots capable of accomodating 3 heavy missiles, enaugh to shred anything cruiser sized or smaller that happen to come to close for turrets to track. The speed and agility of the cyclone are good as well when having the correct skills in these areas.
The cyclone of all BC is the closest that can compare to a BS. Yet it ain't a BS, thats all you need to remember. If you want a BS, then by all means use a BS and don't complain about changing this great ship as failure is guaranteed.
For those into PvP that is dominated by gank BS setups. Don't expect a BC to become either full BS capable of ant-gank. And don't expect a BC to become as fast as frigs and do their role. They are BC and sadly those do not fit well in the current PvP ganking enviroment. This is not the fault of the BC's or their bonuses, but reather the way in which people currently play the game.
Well, thats all.....and remember:
The cyclone totaly ROCKS!
Check out my Shield/Armor resistance calculator.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.06.12 12:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Al Haquis
The shield booster bonus is useless.
FIX it Hammer.
I would like to add this to my brothers request.
Please.
thank you. ;)
-
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." - Unknown Warrior
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Shards
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Posted - 2005.06.12 15:13:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Shards on 12/06/2005 15:14:59
maybe that answer to this is not just to change the cyclone but to give all BC at least 5 med/low slots so they are able to tank properly, ( yes i know this means that only the cyclone layout would change )
also change all defencive bouns on all BC to offencive bouns since the cyclone dont do alot more damage than your average rupture so i assume its the same way with the rest of the BC, and them maybe up the cap on all the BC's so they can still tank even tho they lose the defencive bouns,
i dont think these changes will make them super over powered, BS would still kill them easy 1v1 but it would make them a viable tool in pvp,
but what are the chances of this happening 
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Al Haquis
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Posted - 2005.06.13 01:50:00 -
[16]
Basicly the cyclone does less dmg then the rupture ( yes i know a rupture cant fitt 5x 720mm) becouse of the ship bounuses it gets.
The solution is to eather add one mid slot or change the secondary bonus that gives you the shield boosting bonus to a +5% res against all dmg on the shields per skill lvl.
Btw thats the secondary bounus for the ferox.
Simply you cant shield tank with 4 slots, 5 slots would solve this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Council Member, Tahiri Warrior
Masuat'aa Forums
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.06.13 03:18:00 -
[17]
only good bc is the prophecy tbh
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.13 03:45:00 -
[18]
Rupture PG w. Eng 5: 906.25
Cyclone PG w. Eng 5: 1375
720mm I: 250pg, 6.9x, 15.75sec
6.9*1.25*1.15 = 9.91875x
15.75*0.90*0.80 = 11.34sec
on Rupture (1x RCU II)
9.91875*1.25 = 12.3984375x
11.34*0.75 = 8.505sec
((22*12.3984375)/8.505)*4 = 128.284824
on Cyclone
11.34*0.75 = 8.505sec
((22*9.91875)/8.505)*5 = 128.284824
.........
add 4x Gyro II on both ships.
in order to fit 720mm II, you need 1 rcu/pdu on cyclone - 1375 pg of 1375. you need 2 on the rupture. so, 3 Gyro IIs on both ships.
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Originally by: Gnauton
It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
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Nick Parker
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Posted - 2005.06.13 06:51:00 -
[19]
The Only BC's you see in PvP is the Ferox for Jamming or the Prophecy as occasional Gate bate, but that's it. The Brutix and the Cyclone came out on the S**t end of the stick for BC's.
I really wish they would make Battle cruisers better, I think they are the worst failure in EvE. I remember reading the forums when they first came out (along with destroyers) and sooooo many people wanted one. TBH they aren't worth the mineral Production.
To the original poster, Yeah the Shield bonus is Utter rubbish, and needs to be changed.
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Roderic Excelion
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Posted - 2005.06.13 07:45:00 -
[20]
Just a point:
I've been considering swapping my Ferrox for one. Yes, I loose 1 mid slot which makes my shield tanking worse, but I still get a bonus equivalent to a free mid slot (namely a free shield boost amplifier) but more importantly you seem to have missed that I'm pretty sure this is the only BC with 8 weapons (5 turret, 3 launchers).
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Roderic Excelion
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Posted - 2005.06.13 07:50:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Roderic Excelion on 13/06/2005 07:50:00
P.S.
Originally by: Nick Parker
The Only BC's you see in PvP is the Ferox for Jamming or the Prophecy as occasional Gate bate, but that's it. The Brutix and the Cyclone came out on the S**t end of the stick for BC's.
I really wish they would make Battle cruisers better, I think they are the worst failure in EvE. I remember reading the forums when they first came out (along with destroyers) and sooooo many people wanted one. TBH they aren't worth the mineral Production.
To the original poster, Yeah the Shield bonus is Utter rubbish, and needs to be changed.
?!?!? your kidding right? My Ferrox does more damage and tanks better than my Scorpion.
Shield bonus stacks with the boost amplifier with no penalty like that which you end up with fitting 2 amplifiers. With the same cap cost for 1 med booster, using a T2 medium booster, you get
90*1.25*1.25...
140 shields every 5(?) secs for only 60 cap. Thats a lot of cheap shields.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.06.13 13:55:00 -
[22]
Cyclone is obviously based on blueprints "leaked" from the Amarr.
Weight
Cyclone 12.5M Kg
Mammoth 12.5M Kg
At 165 m/s its by far the slowest Minmatar cruiser ever conceived.
And suped-up Shield defence which is abysmal vs. Minmatar arch-enemy the Amarr.
As indicated the extra gun is misleading because Ruppy gets equivalent of extra gun @ cruiser lvl 5. Since its a nice tank, its good for Mission running.
In pvp, at 4x the cost of the rupture, your better off just using a Rupture, especially @ cruiser 5.
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Siroc
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Posted - 2005.06.13 21:12:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Siroc on 13/06/2005 21:13:09
Cyclone worked just fine for level 3 missions. Moved faster then battleship, could survive better, and could deal with threats much better then cruiser can with more weapons. I think people should slow down on all that math nonsence. Shield booster bonus = free amp or free capacitor power relay negative effect negation, so it did allow you to tank much better. Its faster then any other battlecruisers, works quite well in long range to a medium range. I would rather have speed bonus then shield boost bonus though. I think this ships description calls for it.
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Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2005.06.14 19:11:00 -
[24]
it does need another mid or low slot
undisputed lord of the forums
Im older then I look |
Roderic Excelion
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Posted - 2005.06.14 23:22:00 -
[25]
no it doesn't. Ferrox has 7/5/4, Cyclone has 8/4/4. Want another mid, swap to the ferrox.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.14 23:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Roderic Excelion
no it doesn't. Ferrox has 7/5/4, Cyclone has 8/4/4. Want another mid, swap to the ferrox.
Imo they should either keep the bonus and make it 8-5-3 or drop the bonus and either keep it 8-4-4 or turn it into 8-3-5. As things stand now, it makes no sense.
You wouldnt shield-tank it if you were going solo because you wouldnt be able to hold your target. And you wont in a gang because there's no point in tanking something so weak unless youre going solo.
Add to that the fact that it's the only BC which doesent do more dps than its tier-3-cruiser counterpart. And no, the launchers dont count. The only thing you'd be using them for is defenders if you plan to use the rof bonus for 720s.
Unless you were going for the vampaclone setup with 5 nos and 3 launchers. In which case you wont be using *any* of it's bonuses (repper + 1600mm in low). ANd doing less dps than a suckrilege. And hey, dont that remind you of vampaphoons?
There are a few effective setups for the ship, but they never use more than 1 bonus - the RoF on the guns.
Truth of the matter is, both the Cyclone and Brutix got the short end of the stick in the BC lottery. And all BCs are far below what they should be able to do considering how much they cost.
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Originally by: Gnauton
It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
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Ranger 1
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Posted - 2005.06.14 23:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Twin blade
To be fair the whole BC class is ****** they should be able to use BS weapons with weak curiser defence power at best but the devs just made them slower curiser's with a tad more power.
Erm, all this would do is create a far more useless vessel, as it would die long before its BS size guns could do any significant damage.
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
Kai Lae
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Posted - 2005.06.14 23:56:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Kai Lae on 15/06/2005 00:00:23
Increase the grid/CPU on these ships, increase the drone bay on the Brutix, change the slot layout on the cyclone to 8/5/3. Also increasing the bonus per level that the cyclone and brutix get should be looked into, as unlike the other 2 it takes a slot to function and also cap to use. Also IMO a battlecruiser should be able to mount the heaviest cruiser weapons; that's where the justification in price comes from. It's supposed to be about 1/2 as effective as a tier 1 BS and it's actually not close. Currently in order (w/ engineering 5) to get anything other than electrons on a brutix w/ a standard layout in the rest of the slots I must use a RCU. There's something wrong w/ that..
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.15 00:42:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kai Lae
Edited by: Kai Lae on 15/06/2005 00:00:23
Increase the grid/CPU on these ships, increase the drone bay on the Brutix, change the slot layout on the cyclone to 8/5/3. Also increasing the bonus per level that the cyclone and brutix get should be looked into, as unlike the other 2 it takes a slot to function and also cap to use. Also IMO a battlecruiser should be able to mount the heaviest cruiser weapons; that's where the justification in price comes from. It's supposed to be about 1/2 as effective as a tier 1 BS and it's actually not close. Currently in order (w/ engineering 5) to get anything other than electrons on a brutix w/ a standard layout in the rest of the slots I must use a RCU. There's something wrong w/ that..
That's just the 'tix being gimped into a trailer park of hell and back 2 or 3 times.
It doesent take a bloody genius to see if you have the most turrets and the turrets that have the highest cpu fittings, having the 2nd-lowest powegrid and worst computer is going to kill the ship.
as things stand, powergrid goes:
Ferox (5 turrets, shield tank)
->
Brutix (7 turrets, armor tank)
->
Cyclone (5 turrets, shield tank)
->
Prophecy (6 turrets, armor tank)
can you spot the gimped ship? 
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Originally by: Gnauton
It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.06.15 00:50:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Weirda on 15/06/2005 00:50:05
Weirda's theory on why Minmatar ships have gimped bonus:
They would be too uber without because Matari pilots are just so damned good! 
The cyclone works because you can fight from good range and minimize you damage.
-It sucks vs lasers... 
-not too bad vs. intys with 3 launcher and drones... 
-it look neat (locomotive headlight 4tw!!!!) 
-can fit 5x720s II easier then a Muninn w/2xpower diag 2 and 2xGyro II 
Dunno what else to say... if you have HAC though, it will rot in the hanger... it's a poor man's muninn...
--
Thread Killer
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