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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.06.13 16:19:00 -
[1]
Figured I'd post this here, because it'll just get spammed off 'general discussion'.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.06.13 16:19:00 -
[2]
Electronic warfare, particularly target jamming, has recently been revised to be chance based.
The probability of jamming is 'per module' and is a direct comparison if jamming strength, vs. sensor strength.
What this means is that with only 1 module, you still have a chance of jamming a battleship. But it also means that if you have 6, you're not _guaranteed_ to do so.
A multispectral jammer has a strength of 4.
Against a ship with a sensor strength of 10, this means it has a 40% chance of successfully jamming, for 20 seconds, each (20 second) cycle.
4 strength 4 jammers gives a compound probability of 87% vs this strength 10 target.
1 - ( 1 - ( 4 / 10 ) ) ^ 4
Given they cycle every 20 seconds, optimal jamming is achieved by staggering the start, and only jamming if you were unsuccessful. So with 4 jammers, starting 1 every 5 seconds. (Assuming you failed on previous attempts). The reason being that lock time remains a factor.
ECMs are currently effective against NPCs now. Most ships you encounter are within a few points of a 'standard' ship of their class. Some few (mercenary commanders, and 'nameds') cheat, and have 20 in all strengths. Sentry guns also, as a rule, have high sensor strengths (e.g. 100 in all).
Rogue drones have poor sensors, all magnetometric, and all frigate strength or less. (except for the odd rogue drone parasite, which has 20 to all again).
Target painters are the other new innovation. They increase a target's signature radius. This means that they are easier to hit with 'large' caliber weaponry. If I recall correctly, signature of gun/signature of ship is a factor in the 'hit' probability.
These are effective at the current time, at boosting damage dealt by a gunship. With upcoming missile changes, this will also have an impact on missile launchers, but the precise magnitude remains to be seen.
Sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, webbers and scramblers remain mostly unchanged, except for having an optimal and falloff.
Dampeners reduce targeting range and sensor resolution. This reduces their ability to (re) lock a target. A less known side effect is that FoF missiles only target as far as the ship's targeting range. The 'basic' dampener reduces max range and sensor resolution by 35%. (T2/best named 48%). The target will lose lock if you are outside their (new) targeting range.
Tracking disruptors reduce the tracking modifier on the targeted ship, meaning they have less chance to hit a fast moving target. The Tracking disruptor 1 reduces tracking and max range on a ship by 32.5%. (T2 46%). (Unclear as to whether this is optimal, falloff, or both). The effectiveness is therefore dependant on the target ship, but the effects are fairly obvious. Doesn't appear to be used very often, probably because it's better for small ships vs. large ships - at which point multiple sensor dampeners might well be more effective, as it also effects missile boats.
Stasis webber reduces speed of the target ship by 75% (more for nameds) this has recently been changed to a 5 second cycle time, rather than the previous 20. The benefits of doing so should be obvious - they become easier to hit by 'larger' weaponry, and missiles. It also means they have a harder job of leaving range of a scrambler or other close range weapon.
Warp scramblers/disruptors still stop someone going to warp. They're countered by warp core stabilisers. The scrambler is strength 2 and 7.5km, the disruptor strength 1, and 20km. Their usage is situational. A scrambler will stop someone with 1 wcs. A disruptor won't, but it'll work at 20km. There's the argument that a 'real' PvPer doesn't use WCS, because that's a 'wasted' slot - you might die without it, because you can't warp. But would you be more likely to win if you use that low for another hardner, armour repper, power diag, nanofiber etc.
There has been discussion of changing webbers and scramblers to be 'racial' and again have a chance based jamming. As far as I can tell, this means they'll have a similar percentage chance based system to the current ECMs, improved if you get right race, vs. right race.
Each of the above now has an 'optimal' and a 'falloff'. This works in exactly the same way as you're used to on guns - below optimal, 100% effectiveness. Above it drops to 0 at 2 x falloff.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.06.13 16:23:00 -
[3]
(can anyone confirm/deny the jamming rate of ECCM and projectors? I'll be doing some tests later to try and figure out whether that model fits observed results)
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.06.13 16:23:00 -
[4]
To supplement EW now, there are the following skills: Electronic warfare - reduces capacitor usage of ECM, rather than the previous increase to cycle time) Frequency Modulation - increases falloff of painters, dampers, disruptors and ECMs by 10% per level Long Distance jamming - increases optimal of above by 5% per level. Propulsion jamming - reduces cap use of webbers, rather than extending cycle time. Sensor linking - reduces cap use of remote sensor dampeners, rather than the previous extended cycle time Signal Dispersal - boosts target jammers strength by 5% per level. Signal Suppression - increases remote sensor dampeners scan resolution and target range penalty by 5% per level Signal Focusing - increases effect of target painters by 5% per level Weapon disruption - 5% less capacitor needed by tracking disruptors Turret Destabilization - 5% bonus to disruptors tracking penalty, and optimal range per level
Between a 7.2 racial, 5 levels of signal dispersal, and level 5 caldari battleship (in a scorpion) the strength of a target jammer can be bumped up to 12.35. This is good enough for a >50% jamming probability (per module) against most battleships.
I've found mixing remote dampeners and target jammers to be most effective, as breaking their lock and then ensuring that they can't re-lock quickly means that more targets can be successfully locked down. (Since it then doesn't matter so much if you 'miss' a cycle, as they can't relock you before it cycles again)
There are also ECCM modules, which add to your sensor strength, and ECCM projectors, which add to the sensor strength of another ship. At best guess, if you have 'strength' vs. different sensor types, the jamming module has to overcome both.
If we take a 6/2/2/2 jammer, when coming up against a strength 12 ship, which has an ECCM projector pointed at it, giving it 20/8/8/8, it would seem logical that your jammer has to overcome each of the sensor strengths.
So rather than the 6 / 12 'basic' probability, do we have: (6/20) * (2/8) ^ 3 (e.g. 0.4% jamming chance, rather than 50%)
Or to take a less extreme case, a 4 pt backup array of the same type, would take a 10 pt sensor to 14.
42% rather than 60%.
But of a different type, against a racial, that would work out as: 6/10 * 2/4 e.g. 30%
Unfortunately, ECCM projectors and backup arrays seem to fall into the same category as warp core stablisers. Useless unless you come up against the specific threat you're countering. So as a rule, you're better off fitting 'general' purpose agressive module.
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Earthan
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Posted - 2005.06.13 17:24:00 -
[5]
good readthanks.I am playing seldom fromsome time have hard time catching up with all this.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Crom Dubh
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Posted - 2005.06.13 20:39:00 -
[6]
As a new player I would dearly love some advice on the EW front. I want to make my character an EW based one as I intend to spend a lot of time as a courier and would rather avoid trouble if i can. This is mind, can u advise me on the sort of skills i should go for first to give me a good foundation to build on. I also intend to buy a Maulau as soon as I am capable. For its EW bonus and becuse Ilove the look of it. What would be a good starting set up for this ship? Any advice offered will be much appreciated
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.06.13 22:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Crom Dubh As a new player I would dearly love some advice on the EW front. I want to make my character an EW based one as I intend to spend a lot of time as a courier and would rather avoid trouble if i can. This is mind, can u advise me on the sort of skills i should go for first to give me a good foundation to build on. I also intend to buy a Maulau as soon as I am capable. For its EW bonus and becuse Ilove the look of it. What would be a good starting set up for this ship? Any advice offered will be much appreciated
The Maulus is a ship geared up towards remote sensor dampening. As such, the skills you want to be focussing on are: Electronic warfare. Sensor linking 4 Signal Suppression (requires sensor linking 4). (more power on the dampeners) Long range jamming. (more range) Frequency modulation. (again, more range) Cruiser skill.
It's probably worth working towards signal dispersal too, as target jammers work well when combined with remote sensor dampeners.
This is, of course, in addition to the 'usual' engineering and electronics skills you'd be looking at training.
You may find, if you're interested in EW, that training towards caldari battleship is in order - the scorpion is (at least, as far as I recall) the only EW specialised battleship.
Although in all honesty, if you're interesting in a courier role, then a frigate (or interceptor) is probably better suited. Whilst they don't get EW bonuses, they also are far harder to kill when they're not hanging around.
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anubs
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Posted - 2005.06.13 22:47:00 -
[8]
just get cald bs to 4 and sig disperion to 3
fit 6 racials jammers on ur scorp 2 for each race and u can jam up to 3 bs's at once and have no problems
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.06.14 15:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 14/06/2005 15:27:35
Originally by: anubs just get cald bs to 4 and sig disperion to 3
fit 6 racials jammers on ur scorp 2 for each race and u can jam up to 3 bs's at once and have no problems
That'll only jam ships of 3 of the races - if you come up against the 4th, then you're going to be in trouble.
Although actually, rather than splitting your jammers if you don't know the target, I believe mathematically your're better off with 4 multispecs rather that 1 of each racial. (aside from cap usage).
4 x multispec vs. strength 10 ship: P(fail) = 1 - 4/10 P(fail 4 times) = (1 - 4/10) ^ 4 = 0.1296 87% success rate.
4 racial, P(fail on all) = ( 1 - 6/10 ) * ( 1 - 2/10 ) ^ 4 = 0.204 80% success rate.
vs. a battleship with a 20 sensor strength, you're looking at 60% vs. 49%. Assuming, of course, that no skills are involved.
You can't guarantee you'll be fighting opponents (in PvP) that match up to your racial jammer configuration, so you're better off with multispecs. Although the increased cap usage may become an issue.
Of course, this doesn't apply when you know what the target is, e.g. if you're going PvE, or have a scout.
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Ademaro Imre
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Posted - 2005.06.17 19:51:00 -
[10]
The skill book for Long Distance Jamming describes a bonus os 10% bonus to optimal range per level. So far the 10% bonus seems to work. Appears that the skill bonus is multiplied by what the ship bonus adds.
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Ademaro Imre
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Posted - 2005.06.17 20:22:00 -
[11]
Please clarify this for me, is the chance to jam recalculated every cyctem time? If so - is that the reasoning for the 'cycle jamming' - to keep a ship locked with a hopefully successfull 2nd module should the first module fail?
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.17 20:24:00 -
[12]
Concerning the chance to successfully jam a target, I prefer using an AND probability with your chance to fail, then subtracting from 1. IE, using 4 jammers with 4 strength versus a target with 10 sensor strength (40% chance to succeed, 60% chance to fail), you do 1 - (.6 * .6 * .6 * .6) = 0.8704, or approximately 87% chance to succeed. I find it a lot easier to calculate than the more complicated formulas, and it also allows you to mix different chances (multispecs, racials, named modules) into the equation.
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H0ot
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Posted - 2005.06.18 15:44:00 -
[13]
How does optimal/falloff work for ECM mods?
For example:
With Frequency Modulation IV and Caldari Battleship IV on paper I get 79km Optimal and 25km Falloff. The Falloff is much much lower because of the 20% Optimal bonus on the Scorpion.
Does this mean that if my target drops below 54 i'd be in trouble? And that there is no way to jam someone at closer ranges (say below 20km?)
Maybe i'm doing something wrong here, I havn't had a chance yet to test this in the field. if you could elaborate on the falloff/optimal of multispecs i'd be very greatful.
This is my Signature. It sucks. Think you can do better? Make me a sig and I might even pay you. Huzzah! |
James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.06.18 15:48:00 -
[14]
Optimal and falloff works exactly the same as on guns.
Below optimal, your 'success' rate is 100% of normal. (Or disruption percentage, or target signature increase).
Above optimal, you have a reduced probability. That's approximately 50% at Optimal + falloff, and 0% at Optimal + falloff + falloff. It's not linear, but it's linear-ish.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.06.18 15:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ademaro Imre Please clarify this for me, is the chance to jam recalculated every cyctem time? If so - is that the reasoning for the 'cycle jamming' - to keep a ship locked with a hopefully successfull 2nd module should the first module fail?
Each time a module 'cycles' then a jamming calculation is peformed. The reason you take several modules, is because there's a chance of the first jam failing. At which point, you can activate your second, for another chance.
'cycle' jamming used to be a trick with the old style jammers, where you'd jam 1 target, then move on to the next - because they'd take some time to re-lock. It still works to an extent, since you can jam 1 target, then jam his friend with the next 'cycle' and if you're lucky they won't have much chance to fire, with a bad re-lock time.
Said relock time can also be worsened with sensor dampeners and sensor dampeners always work (although, obviously they don't do 100% like target jammers).
So with a 'few' remote dampeners, and some target jammers, you can jam, then damp a target, such that their re-lock time is too high for them to be able to fire. At which point you can cycle targets on your jammers, and effectively stop multiple ships at once.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.18 16:50:00 -
[16]
a couple of things:
painters affect tracking primarly:
effective tracking against target = (target sig/gun sig)*base_tracking
Painters and Remote dampers, afaik falloff affects effectiveness and not chance. they are 100% chance, but effectiveness goes from 100% to 0% @ 2*falloff, or so it seems.
Likely it follows the quasi-sine wave curve of gun falloff.
.. i might be wrong about the 2nd one, but i havent seen my painter miss yet. -------------
Originally by: Gnauton It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
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FlyinFish Shriker
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Posted - 2005.07.03 18:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: James Lyrus
If we take a 6/2/2/2 jammer, when coming up against a strength 12 ship, which has an ECCM projector pointed at it, giving it 20/8/8/8, it would seem logical that your jammer has to overcome each of the sensor strengths.
So rather than the 6 / 12 'basic' probability, do we have: (6/20) * (2/8) ^ 3 (e.g. 0.4% jamming chance, rather than 50%)
Is this part tested or anyone can confirm this? It seems a ship with an ECCM projector is almost unable to be jammed -- 0.4% ------------------------------------------- "Death is just the beginning..." |
Lowa
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Posted - 2005.07.03 18:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
Originally by: James Lyrus
If we take a 6/2/2/2 jammer, when coming up against a strength 12 ship, which has an ECCM projector pointed at it, giving it 20/8/8/8, it would seem logical that your jammer has to overcome each of the sensor strengths.
So rather than the 6 / 12 'basic' probability, do we have: (6/20) * (2/8) ^ 3 (e.g. 0.4% jamming chance, rather than 50%)
Is this part tested or anyone can confirm this? It seems a ship with an ECCM projector is almost unable to be jammed -- 0.4%
IMHO I say skip the ECCM stuff, its only in the way of other more useful modules as it does not help that much.
Also, my experience is actually 2 things: 1. If I'm close to my target I get a lower chance of success. Dont know if its actually so, but so far jamming targets at 60km+ have had a better success rate.
2. Even if the overview say you have jammed a target it does not mean that it actually is! We have seen at atleast 2 incidents where targets have been jammed but still fireing and killing stuff.
Cheers, LOWA
Oh! Yeah! Huh! MC - Going funky all over your clone baby! |
MrMedister
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Posted - 2005.07.07 21:42:00 -
[19]
Sticky!
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Alerce
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Posted - 2005.07.07 21:56:00 -
[20]
Well i fitted a target jammer and what i noticed is ,against a lot of npcs, it means i use less cap on shield boosting, because at 1 least big ship wont hit me that often anymore over time.
Basically i save more cap, then i would get by fitting an extra cap recharger.
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Kyse
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Posted - 2005.07.07 22:55:00 -
[21]
I tried playing around with gearing a sensor damp along with my target jammers, i was a little unimpressed by the results. After the age old nerf of sensor dampeners (which was needed) the range and speed that they dampen isnt much compaired to how much a sensor booster is giving them. In pvp most all BS gear a sensor booster or 3.
I personaly like to run with one sensor booster and 4 target jammers and then 3 shield tank stuff. The results from the build i have been very pleased with. Given the 4 multi spec target jammers really rip my cap apart i usaly dont need to keep the jam going long before the situation is resolved. Given this is for PVP.
For NPC's i would recomend prob 3 racial of what your hunting. Perhaps 2 but i personaly have just has sad results from 2 units.
As far as being close range i have not really noted that the enemy being to close hurts your chance to jam them, I have suspected it a few times but the overall rate at which i jam does not seem to change. I have not really tested jamming at really long range yet so i could not really comment on how jammers work once past optimal.
PS: Target painters dont seem to be doing much for missiles so only gear them if your grouping with gun boats.
Happy Hunting Kyse
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Infineon
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Posted - 2005.07.11 07:02:00 -
[22]
Can some one clarify what jamming % means?
This is how I see jamming:
2 racial jammers 6/2/2/2 = 12/4/4/4jam.pts
If I use these jam.pts on target with 10 pts (racial jammers matched for target), it means my 12 jam.pts overcomes 10 jam.pts and results in 100% scrambled ship for all continuous cycles, RIGHT?
Now, if I only use one jammer 6/2/2/2, in this case my 6 jam.pts dose not overcome the 10 pts of targeted ship and results in 0% or no scrambling at all. HERE is where I get confused, from previous post that iv read it say that ôeven do I donÆt overcome 10 pts with my 6 jam.pts, I can still scramble target.ö but with certain percentage??? what dose this means and how can I know for shore if it will happed and for how many cycles, or dose it resets every cycle and recalculates based on that same percentage? dose it means that I have chance to jam BS with only 6 jam.pts for at least one cycle?
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Kardinaal
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Posted - 2005.07.11 08:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Infineon Can some one clarify what jamming % means?
This is how I see jamming:
2 racial jammers 6/2/2/2 = 12/4/4/4jam.pts
If I use these jam.pts on target with 10 pts (racial jammers matched for target), it means my 12 jam.pts overcomes 10 jam.pts and results in 100% scrambled ship for all continuous cycles, RIGHT?
Now, if I only use one jammer 6/2/2/2, in this case my 6 jam.pts dose not overcome the 10 pts of targeted ship and results in 0% or no scrambling at all. HERE is where I get confused, from previous post that iv read it say that ôeven do I donÆt overcome 10 pts with my 6 jam.pts, I can still scramble target.ö but with certain percentage??? what dose this means and how can I know for shore if it will happed and for how many cycles, or dose it resets every cycle and recalculates based on that same percentage? dose it means that I have chance to jam BS with only 6 jam.pts for at least one cycle?
Jamming doesn't work with absolute numbers anymore. every jammer is seen as a different module.say I have a 6/2/2/2 jammer and you have a 10 strenght ship. Then the chance for my jammer to work is 6 / 10 = 0.6 or 60%. When I activate the jammer, you could say CCP roles the dice and if I'm lucky I'll jam you. I have 60% chance my jammer will work.
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Kardinaal
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Posted - 2005.07.11 08:40:00 -
[24]
There's still a few loose ends to this. How do ECCM modules stack? I know they do cause the second one doesn't give you as much of an advantage as the first one.
Also, what's the chance for a disruptor to work when within optimal? Is it 100%? Do these things affect the range of ECM mods too?
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Paradox Eve
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Posted - 2005.07.11 09:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
Originally by: James Lyrus
If we take a 6/2/2/2 jammer, when coming up against a strength 12 ship, which has an ECCM projector pointed at it, giving it 20/8/8/8, it would seem logical that your jammer has to overcome each of the sensor strengths.
So rather than the 6 / 12 'basic' probability, do we have: (6/20) * (2/8) ^ 3 (e.g. 0.4% jamming chance, rather than 50%)
Is this part tested or anyone can confirm this? It seems a ship with an ECCM projector is almost unable to be jammed -- 0.4%
Correct me if Im wrong, but I though ECCM projector could not give target ship a higher sensor strength than the ship using the ECCM projector. So, in general, it wouldnt give the ship a boost of 8 to every sensor strength. Normally, it would get 8 in the one type of sensor of the ship using the mod. And this also means that no ship would jump from 12 to 20, correct? Anything already about 8 and it doesnt even matter anymore. Or am I just misunderstanding something?
Still doesnt quite address the probability question, but...
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Ephemeral Waves
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Posted - 2005.08.01 16:03:00 -
[26]
Thanks for the good post.
What does ECM do if somebody is already locked on and shooting at you - if anything?
I've put a couple of multi-spec on my badger with the thought that if somebody did come afterme I could jam them while my warp aligned.
Y. |
Muwumba aliUbaid
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Posted - 2005.08.01 16:45:00 -
[27]
Any suggestions for minmatar ew frig set ups?
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.08.02 00:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ephemeral Waves Thanks for the good post.
What does ECM do if somebody is already locked on and shooting at you - if anything?
I've put a couple of multi-spec on my badger with the thought that if somebody did come afterme I could jam them while my warp aligned.
Y.
Breaks the lock, doesn't let them lock anything until the jamming cycle ends (20 seconds), at which point your modules attempt to jam the target again. However, if they've got drones attacking you, the drones will continue to fire on you, and FoF missiles can be launched at you as well. Smartbombs also can be used.
However, if you're being scrambled and need to make an escape, ECM is your friend.
-Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ilkar Lightspar
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Posted - 2005.08.17 20:42:00 -
[29]
Fascinating and very useful forum!
This is probably a silly question but does the scan resolution come into the equation when looking at jamming? I am trying a cloak on my Blackbird which gives -50% to the scan resolution. Will this cripple my jamming capabilities?
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.08.18 19:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ilkar Lightspar Fascinating and very useful forum!
This is probably a silly question but does the scan resolution come into the equation when looking at jamming? I am trying a cloak on my Blackbird which gives -50% to the scan resolution. Will this cripple my jamming capabilities?
You've got to lock before you can jam. So if your lock times are stuffed (e.g. if they have a remote sensor dampener on you) then jamming becomes harder. It doesn't stop you jamming once you have lock, but obviously if they have a 'counter jammer' that's not cloaked, you'll get jammed first.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.08.18 19:10:00 -
[31]
increases lock time - makes people more likely to shoot you before you jam them, and is fatal in an ECM duel
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Wolverine PL
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Posted - 2005.09.14 01:48:00 -
[32]
Does Tracking disruptors works on NPC?
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Oyennor
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Posted - 2005.09.20 14:09:00 -
[33]
A few questions on EW.
First and foremost. If Ijam someone, are they jammed for everyone or just me. Similarly with target painters and weapon disruptors. Am I affecting their ability to target ME specifically, or everyone? I ask as I'm trying to put together a "back of the pack" EW machine to scramble the enemy while my mates do the shooting. Any thoughts? Until I can fly something tech 2 and funky (I'm caldari) I'm considering a Griffon. |
Conram
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Posted - 2005.09.20 14:26:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Conram on 20/09/2005 14:28:35 Some answers:
- Well, AFAIK and as I noticed, tracking disruptors work on NPCs, at least the battleships.
- Every frig with 4 medslots is suited for EW. Just put in an MWD and some racials. Frigs lock fast but can nearly not be counterlocked. This means, if a frig stops jamming a BS, the BS will be in serious trouble to counterlock the frigate before it activates the ECM module a second time. Cheap, replaceable, nearly no SP required, "kills" BS - what do you want more ? Frig > BS To be serious, it is really worth considering putting 1/2 of your PVP newbies in tacklers and the other half in EW frigs.
Conram
*** Proud member of the X-Trading Company and Ex-President of the XETIC Federation *** |
Saavik
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Posted - 2005.09.25 13:55:00 -
[35]
I would like a more thorough explanation of the ECM formula:
1 - ( 1 - ( 4 / 10 ) ) ^ 4
Basically i wanna know what each coeficient means. It's easy to know that 10 is the ship strength, and that 4 would be either jammer strength or number of jammers used but i dont know which is which.
So what i'm asking is what does each number mean?
If anyone knows this please explain it. Thanks in advance. |
Saavik
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Posted - 2005.09.25 13:56:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Oyennor A few questions on EW.
First and foremost. If Ijam someone, are they jammed for everyone or just me. Similarly with target painters and weapon disruptors. Am I affecting their ability to target ME specifically, or everyone? I ask as I'm trying to put together a "back of the pack" EW machine to scramble the enemy while my mates do the shooting. Any thoughts? Until I can fly something tech 2 and funky (I'm caldari) I'm considering a Griffon.
If you jam a enemy ship he can't target anyone, and thus is a sitting target |
JoCool
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Posted - 2005.09.25 14:43:00 -
[37]
Good thread, bookmarked for the newbs :)
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.09.26 08:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Saavik I would like a more thorough explanation of the ECM formula:
1 - ( 1 - ( 4 / 10 ) ) ^ 4
Basically i wanna know what each coeficient means. It's easy to know that 10 is the ship strength, and that 4 would be either jammer strength or number of jammers used but i dont know which is which.
So what i'm asking is what does each number mean?
If anyone knows this please explain it. Thanks in advance.
Your basic probability of jamming is jammer strength vs. ship strength.
So as you have guessed, in the above example, 4 being the jammer and 10 being the ship strength.
That equation is for the situation where you have 4 jammers, on a single target.
To calculate jamming chance for multiple jammers, you need to calculate the chance of _not_ jamming and subtract that from 100%.
If I use 1 multispectral jammer against you:
Chance of jamming = 4/10 = 0.4 =40%
If I use 2 multispectral jammers, Chance of jamming is _not_ 80% :). The chance of failing to jam you with the first jam is 1 - 4/10 = 0.6 = 60% The chance of failing with the _second_ jam is also 60% Therefore the chance of failing both is 0.6 * 0.6 (or 0.6 ^ 2)
E.G. ( 1 - 4 / 10 ) ^ 2
Making the chance to jam, 1 - this number, e.g. 1 - ( 1 - 4 / 10 ) ^ 2
Which is where that formula comes from.
If you've different strength jammers, you can express it as: 1 - ( ( 1 - jammer1 / str ) * ( 1 - jammer2 / str ) * ( 1 - jammer3 / str ) )
And so on (the ^4 is just a contraction of ( 1 - 4/10 ) * itself 4 times).
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.09.26 08:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Oyennor A few questions on EW.
First and foremost. If Ijam someone, are they jammed for everyone or just me. Similarly with target painters and weapon disruptors. Am I affecting their ability to target ME specifically, or everyone? I ask as I'm trying to put together a "back of the pack" EW machine to scramble the enemy while my mates do the shooting. Any thoughts? Until I can fly something tech 2 and funky (I'm caldari) I'm considering a Griffon.
Jamming affects the target ships ability to lock - they can't lock anyone. So yes, having an EW ship benefits everyone in a gang. Or having several frigates, wach with a piece of EW each is fairly nasty. (Stacked sensor dampeners, or tracking disruptors for example)
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Tinilla
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Posted - 2005.09.26 11:31:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Saavik
If you jam a enemy ship he can't target anyone, and thus is a sitting target
Nice, I was always wondering what exactly jammers did when ecm bursts seemed to do the same thing. I may actualy consider training up some EW then
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.10.09 18:43:00 -
[41]
Can an ECCM and ECCM projector module break a current jam? For example:
Ship A ECM jams Ship B. Ship C activates an ECCM projector on Ship B to return his sensor strengths.
Would this break the jam on Ship A?
If not, then it seems that ECCM Projectors are limited in use since they only boost one ship, which may or may not be under danger of being Jamed. ------------
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Liadrin
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Posted - 2005.10.18 07:42:00 -
[42]
good post
Carebears|Me |
James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.11.22 09:38:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Guardian Alpha Can an ECCM and ECCM projector module break a current jam? For example:
Ship A ECM jams Ship B. Ship C activates an ECCM projector on Ship B to return his sensor strengths.
Would this break the jam on Ship A?
If not, then it seems that ECCM Projectors are limited in use since they only boost one ship, which may or may not be under danger of being Jamed.
To the best of my knowledge 'jamming' can't be broken mid cycle.
However if you consider 'breaking' jamming as 'increasing the chance of failure at the next cycle' then they can do that.
It does mean the ship in question will be out of action for 20 seconds, but if you fire up an ECCM projector at it, chances are it will only be for 20 seconds.
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Zazao
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Posted - 2006.02.02 13:43:00 -
[44]
Another Outfit Question: I want to make a EW Heron to play around with and learn to use EW modules with, which skills and modules should I use? Thanks...
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Lev Arris
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Posted - 2006.02.02 15:16:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zazao Another Outfit Question: I want to make a EW Heron to play around with and learn to use EW modules with, which skills and modules should I use? Thanks...
Just an aside, a Griffin would be better for EW
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Khjan
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Posted - 2006.02.02 16:13:00 -
[46]
Thanks for the note... (Silly as I am I like Heron better)...
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2006.03.06 15:56:00 -
[47]
OK, so my Raven has 22 Gravimetric strength, and zero anything else. If I fit modules that give me (for example) 8 points of Ladar strength, do I have to be jammed on both channels, or am I just opening myself up to a weaker possibility for jamming on the Ladar channel?
It seems odd if I am, since it means that an 8 point strength is worse than a zero point strength!
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
ThisName IsTaken
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Posted - 2006.04.05 18:39:00 -
[48]
I have a question about webs, do they stack? If so, how exactly does it work? Is it possible to completely stop a ship?
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Striker IV
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Posted - 2006.04.11 14:58:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Grey Area OK, so my Raven has 22 Gravimetric strength, and zero anything else. If I fit modules that give me (for example) 8 points of Ladar strength, do I have to be jammed on both channels, or am I just opening myself up to a weaker possibility for jamming on the Ladar channel?
It seems odd if I am, since it means that an 8 point strength is worse than a zero point strength!
im hoping for some reply on this, i was getting the gist of this untill this post.. ( old ew scorp user reading bout changes..) does it increase his chances to " punch thru jamming, because the jammer rolls 2x ( 1 for each strength ?????)
Team work is essential... It gives the other team something ELSE to shoot at!
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Mysti Knight
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Posted - 2006.04.12 12:02:00 -
[50]
Insofar as I know, (ew specialist,) your ship has a scanning type, gravimetric for example, and the jamming of grav is what determines your abillity to lock a target. Having an eccm that gives you some other form of protection, such as ladar boost of "8" is irrelevant. Your ship still requires un-jammed Grav scanning strength.
So it does not help nor hinder you to have eccm in another type of scan, regardless of what your opponent is trying to jam.
Btw, multi specs are not only cap heavy, but range challenged as a compensation for being the "fit one, fit all," solution. :) Really, only a bs can use them continuously, and only the scorp or maybe Rook can use them at long range effectively. Racials are much better if you have any idea of what you might be facing. :)
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.18 06:38:00 -
[51]
Question:
How does dampening affect drones targeting you? Is it like the FoF, which have their own, seemingly independent "range", or will they not come after you if you are outside the victim's range? ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
K'reemy G'udness
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Posted - 2006.04.24 23:35:00 -
[52]
Is all this still valid for RMR? ---
Stolen from Malka: ♥ |
Amaria Amaar
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Posted - 2006.04.26 13:41:00 -
[53]
Argh, my head is gonna explode!!!!!????
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Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2006.05.30 19:06:00 -
[54]
As far as i can tell your ship only takes into consideration the sensor strength it uses when determining if it is jammed or not so you should fit your races type instead of another.
I prefer Projected ECCM modules on other ships, i'd rather have someone shooting a 100% strenth boost at me than having to use 50% boosts but that is not possible if your alone.
I havent had much luck with the eccm you use on yourself, its not strong enough to make all that much of a difference on being jammed (only drops their chance by 25% [ so someone with a 40% chance to jam you would now have a 30% chance]). I could be wrong but it certainly seems that way.
Oh and sticking in 1 sensor dampner instead of another ECM is MUCH better since you could possible cause them to require more time to lock than you do to get another chance at jamming them. If they lock they could have a chance at jamming you first.
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Lickety
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:35:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Lickety on 31/05/2006 18:37:24 edit: nevermind, thanks
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Maldon Perriera
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Posted - 2006.08.30 18:57:00 -
[56]
is there a pdf version of this anywhere?
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fejus
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Posted - 2006.08.30 21:03:00 -
[57]
So people use Battle ships moreso when doing lots of EW? I always figured that the smaller faster Frigates or Interceptors would be what you want to use for EW?
<-- nooblit :)
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Vestah
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.09.04 07:43:00 -
[58]
Originally by: James Lyrus A less known side effect is that FoF missiles only target as far as the ship's targeting range.
I tested this today with no success. I sensor dampened a friend's raven to 11km targeting range and his FoF Cruise missles would still hit me even at 30km orbit.
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Iog Krugar
Gallente The Rising Stars
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Posted - 2006.09.28 11:41:00 -
[59]
another loose end: do the "advanced" ecm skills (Signal Dispersal, Signal Suppression, Signal Focusing, Turret Destabilization) add to the effectiveness of the respective EW drones?
--- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods |
Iog Krugar
Gallente The Rising Stars
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Posted - 2006.09.29 12:44:00 -
[60]
just tested this and unless the showinfo for ew drones is buggy, the skills do not add to ew drone effectiveness.
--- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods |
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Idealdeath
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Posted - 2006.10.20 14:28:00 -
[61]
Really starting to get into the ew side of the game have most ew support skills to 4. Whats the purpose of t2 racials the best named use less cpu and cap and are roughly in the same price range. Am i missing something?
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gob bluthe
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:10:00 -
[62]
how effective are Sensor Dampeners against NPCs? do they have ridiculously large targetting ranges, making the dampener's range reduction useless?
is there a source that says what the targetting range of specific NPCs is?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:23:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Idealdeath Really starting to get into the ew side of the game have most ew support skills to 4. Whats the purpose of t2 racials the best named use less cpu and cap and are roughly in the same price range. Am i missing something?
No, you aren't :).
Top named is better than T2. I hold out hopes they'll bring out an ewar spec that makes it worth paying the additional cap and CPU.
Originally by: gob bluthe how effective are Sensor Dampeners against NPCs? do they have ridiculously large targetting ranges, making the dampener's range reduction useless?
is there a source that says what the targetting range of specific NPCs is?
NPCs cheat. Lots. They jam just fine, but their locking times and ranges are ... well more than enough that damping them is pretty pointless.
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Peiagh
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Posted - 2007.01.11 11:21:00 -
[64]
Great info thanks, good for a newbie looking at speccing in EW.
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pandymen
Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.05.29 18:38:00 -
[65]
Someone mentioned earlier that you can't run multispecs on anything less than a battleship. For those aspiring EW pilots out there, don't worry, a blackbird can run them just fine....and at its max targeting range.
A med cap booster filled with 800's is just barely enough to keep them going. Furthermore, if you fit only nos across the top, 3 meds and 1 small nos (the most my blackbird pg can hold) can almost power 5 multispecs indefinitely with decent skills. Granted, you don't want to get that close, but if it comes down to it, you have that option.
I do have one question though. Alot of people are saying here that anything closer than optimal means that the jammers will work properly. However, I have heard from several people as well as from experience, that when someone gets really close to me, my jammers fail.
I had someone jammed in a battleship for 3 cycles, as soon as he came close to me, my jam broke. I failed the next cycle. As soon as he moved further away, I was able to jam again.
Does anyone know for sure if close up targets (closer than optimal - 2xfalloff) are more difficult to jam?
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Scarlet Pimpernel
Clan Eshin
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Posted - 2007.05.31 11:31:00 -
[66]
...and Siklar the cleric raised his holy symbol high and screamed at the undead beast "BACK! BACK! I SAY! THREAD NECROMANCY IS AN AFRONT TO LIFE!"
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Lindee Cruz
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Posted - 2007.06.09 23:22:00 -
[67]
Thanks james, this is great info
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Rada Ionesco
Caldari Capital Development and Security Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.01 22:55:00 -
[68]
Is this info on EW still current? I noticed this thread is kind of old. Just wondering.
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