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Melingus Ye Olde Ore Industries 0	Posted - 2013.01.06 19:58:00 - [1] - Quote Hey Guys! I've read tons of posts addressing the idea of a smaller class of carriers that would be roughly battleship sized in terms of firepower, tank, and mobility. I have loved the idea of escort carriers but have been constantly disappointed by the extreme polarized debate over prospective stats. Capital ship supporters often nerf the proposed abilities to a useless state while proponents of the escort carrier idea over power the concepts to a capital class level. I propose with high skills into the escort carrier, one would arrive at: 1. Approximately 10 heavy drones or 15 light drones fielded, no turrets or launchers, no fighters (fighters belong to capitals) -Allowing for the specialized role of fielding multiple drones yet preventing abuse of numbers. Limitations should be such that no more than 10 heavies can be fielded (this would be with a lvl 5 skill), resulting in a possible 1400ish dps, and/or no more than 15 light drones, again, to prevent overpowering yet fielding enough to really give that carrier feel. 2. Triage. -The capital class carriers have a major role (as far as I can tell) in the triage of a large null fleet. I would propose triage capabilities for the escort carrier to have a useful range (30-50km rather than 6km) BUT a much smaller rep rate compared to the specialized logistics ships. This would keep the logi ships viable while giving an escort carrier the utility that its larger counterparts utilize all the time. 3. Tank -Similar to BS's, though I would expect perhaps a bit more hull, with shield or armor, racially dependent, following suit in lower quantities (like the distribution of shield, armor and hull in freighters for example). 4. No Jump Drive. Period. -Needed by capitals, unnecessary aspect of BS's (except for Black Ops ships of course). 5. No Ship Bay like the Orca, but perhaps a corporate bay -The escort carrier should not have hangar space for friendly craft due to the necessity of saving space for its drones. However, having the ability to carry extra supplies for the fleet makes sense, so a corporate hangar of perhaps 10k m3 to 15k m3 seems reasonable to me. I hope this concept is met with enthusiasm as a compromise between numerous points of community discussion. Fly safe.
Ines Tegator Towels R Us 210	Posted - 2013.01.06 20:52:00 - [2] - Quote Interesting idea. Balance would be very delicate, since Logi is already extremely powerful, but the idea does have potential worth discussing. I smell a new t2 battleship maybe?
Melingus Ye Olde Ore Industries 0	Posted - 2013.01.06 21:03:00 - [3] - Quote Aye, I think T2 Battleship is appropriate, as far as skills would likely be concerned. Logistics like I said would have to be nerfed in comparison to the dedicated logistics ships. As you pointed out the greatest issue in all the discussion on the concept is how to balance it. It does have a viable role as a mixed Battleship fleet support ship, and would add a more dynamic role to the Sub-cap fleet engagements. Thanks for the encouragement Ines :)
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 397	Posted - 2013.01.06 21:16:00 - [4] - Quote Look here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1293667#post1293667 Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Grathenar Ye Olde Ore Industries 0	Posted - 2013.01.06 21:25:00 - [5] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Look here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1293667#post1293667 Yes, I like the majority of what I'm seeing Loius post. He proposes nerfing the cap as a limitation to logistics, it appears he doesn't support jump drives like others did (which is good he doesn't), and the attributes he assigns are all reasonable. It would be nice to see CCP take his work and refine it a bit so they're satisfied with the balance and release them. Thanks for linking that Omnathious!
Ines Tegator Towels R Us 210	Posted - 2013.01.06 21:53:00 - [6] - Quote Agreed, Loius' stats and design look very nice. I wonder about all 4 races having the same ship bonus... but considering the versatility and limitations of drones, I can't argue with it being appropriate. I bumped his thread up with a link to here to help encourage discussion.
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 926	Posted - 2013.01.06 22:26:00 - [7] - Quote ...This again? What's wrong with a dominix or an ishtar or something?
sabre906 Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 550	Posted - 2013.01.06 22:58:00 - [8] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: ...This again? What's wrong with a dominix or an ishtar or something? Enough bandwidth for 5 heavy/sentries like the geddon? Oh wait, a third more drone dps, yeah, that makes it a carrier. There is no logical reason for any carrier to be rolled together with the noncombat logi, other than it saves devs work on another hull, a legacy from early days of Eve that we don't need. If anything, it cause problems on balancing. "Escort carrier" should not have logi function. For that matter, regular carrier should not have logi function, it should have been a separate hull. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454
Melingus Ye Olde Ore Industries 3	Posted - 2013.01.07 03:45:00 - [9] - Quote True enough I guess. I figured that trying to couple basic triage systems with a supportive role or lending supplies and a battery of drones to a fighting force that would desire high mobility would make sense for the empires to develop. In an EVE universe post incursion, rapid mobilization with increase in support and supply seems logical. A sub-cap fleet with cap utility (not in scale, but in dynamics of versatility and situation) feels right. Besides, people who are die-hard drone and carrier pilots would buy and fly them... and others would blow em up. More things to fly, logical role to be played (even if unnecessary), more stuff for the manufacturers, more stuff for trigger happy people.
sabre906 Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 553	Posted - 2013.01.07 05:21:00 - [10] - Quote Melingus wrote: True enough I guess. I figured that trying to couple basic triage systems with a supportive role or lending supplies and a battery of drones to a fighting force that would desire high mobility would make sense for the empires to develop. In an EVE universe post incursion, rapid mobilization with increase in support and supply seems logical. A sub-cap fleet with cap utility (not in scale, but in dynamics of versatility and situation) feels right. Besides, people who are die-hard drone and carrier pilots would buy and fly them... and others would blow em up. More things to fly, logical role to be played (even if unnecessary), more stuff for the manufacturers, more stuff for trigger happy people. Isn't that a bs logi? If you triage it wouldn't be mobile. If not it would be OP (a domi with long rr and more drones at the same time). Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454
Mikhael Taron Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 7	Posted - 2013.01.07 05:35:00 - [11] - Quote I'm starting to see the look at how smart(negative) I can be comments creeping in. I've always thought escort ships are lacking in this game, with hisec ganking being the problem it is. By now I'm sure the empires would have addressed this with a support ship that can tank like a BS, rep the ship being escorted and take the fight to the suigankers. Would need to keep its solo-PvP ability down, balance and all that. Maybe allow it to carry only ewar drones? Jamming the gankers ups the survival chance of the freighter. This idea sounds good. Instead of thinking up ever more (un)clever comments how about making it work?
Ines Tegator Towels R Us 210	Posted - 2013.01.07 06:06:00 - [12] - Quote What role does this serve? It anchors a small gang, giving them staying power at the cost of mobility. It brings capital style warfare to subcaps, making the transition and learning curve smoother. Also, it's shiny. Shiny is good. Here's a random idea I just had: instead of being primarily about repair, make it about cap transfer. If it wants to rep, it's got 10 drones for that. This way it can support a gang using heavy active tanks, or support other logi, encouraging teamwork and making strategy more complex. As always, devil is in the details, and it'll be a fine line between expanding fleet tactics and being overpowered. It sounds fun though, I would love to see small gang fights last more then 30 seconds.
Hakan MacTrew Caledonian Heavy Industries Sick N' Twisted 201	Posted - 2013.01.07 08:13:00 - [13] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: What role does this serve? It anchors a small gang, giving them staying power at the cost of mobility. It brings capital style warfare to subcaps, making the transition and learning curve smoother. Also, it's shiny. Shiny is good. Here's a random idea I just had: instead of being primarily about repair, make it about cap transfer. If it wants to rep, it's got 10 drones for that. This way it can support a gang using heavy active tanks, or support other logi, encouraging teamwork and making strategy more complex. As always, devil is in the details, and it'll be a fine line between expanding fleet tactics and being overpowered. It sounds fun though, I would love to see small gang fights last more then 30 seconds. Someone touched on a support BS idea in another thread. His idea was to focus on things like projected ECCM, Tracking Links and Remote Sensor Boosters. If you could combine these with a Drone based ship with little or no weapon slots that had bonuses to cap transfer, it could fill a gap in the game as well as be shiny. MODULAR DRONES MORE ORE SHIPS
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 926	Posted - 2013.01.07 13:32:00 - [14] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: What role does this serve? It anchors a small gang, giving them staying power at the cost of mobility. It brings capital style warfare to subcaps, making the transition and learning curve smoother. Also, it's shiny. Shiny is good. Here's a random idea I just had: instead of being primarily about repair, make it about cap transfer. If it wants to rep, it's got 10 drones for that. This way it can support a gang using heavy active tanks, or support other logi, encouraging teamwork and making strategy more complex. As always, devil is in the details, and it'll be a fine line between expanding fleet tactics and being overpowered. It sounds fun though, I would love to see small gang fights last more then 30 seconds. Surely that's nothing you can't already do with an existing logi ship or two, without ruining your gang's mobility? Also, rep drones are awful, they're really not going to be able to keep a gang going. This thing would pack 10 ogre IIs, not support. Also, how is a droneboat capital style warfare? Doesn't teach you about fuel, cynos, jump range or hotdrops (though you would probably be on the recieving end of them a lot if you're stuck in one place with some kind of triage). I guess you could rep highsec pos with it a bit easier, or run more missions?
Melingus Ye Olde Ore Industries 3	Posted - 2013.01.07 15:55:00 - [15] - Quote It is imperative that the carrier have no mounted weapons. When I look at my Orca, 3 highs, 4 mids, 2 lows; a large ship designed for: "The Orca was developed as a joint venture between Outer Ring Excavations and Deep Core Mining Inc as a vessel to help meet the demands of New Eden's industry and provide a flexible platform from which mining operations can be more easily managed. The Orca uses much of the technology developed by ORE for the Rorqual and integrated with the latest advancements from Deep Core Mining research division has developed a vessel which offers a diverse role to all sizes of operations and needs. Role Bonus: 250% bonus to tractor beam range 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity 500% bonus to survey scanner range 99% reduction in CPU need for Gang Link modules Can use 3 gang link modules simultaneously. Industrial Command Ship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cargo capacity per level 3% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level" -Evelopedia While ORE has adapted a ship as "a flexible platform from which mining operations can be more easily managed" and "a vessel which offers a diverse role to all sizes of operations and needs" that is utilized by capsuleers, I find it hard to believe the empires, or the large capsuleer alliances would never develop a similar ship for military operation. I do not support the idea of the ganker's dream drone ship. I enjoy the idea of a vessel to fulfill a role parallel to the orca in combat fleets. It makes sense, even if it would be a bugger to develop and implement, possibly to the joy as well as dismay to some parts of the player base. I have faith, though, that EVE players will do what they always have done: Find a way to use it effectively, find a way to render it useless. Every ship is food for another.
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 399	Posted - 2013.01.07 16:11:00 - [16] - Quote Melingus wrote: It is imperative that the carrier have no mounted weapons. I had that mentality for a long time, and after much time it occurred to my that just because it has guns does not make it a carrier, the part that makes it a carrier is the vast majority of its damage comes from its drones. A x-large drone bay and supplemental damage from guns or missiles is what will make a superb escort carrier. I am also fond of a sub-capital ship being able to deploy 5 fighters, but that is not for this thread. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Melingus Ye Olde Ore Industries 3	Posted - 2013.01.07 16:27:00 - [17] - Quote I suppose so, the main example people use to shoot down the idea is the Dominix. It's cheap, it fields drones with a sizeable drone bay, bonuses to damage and health for the drones, and six (i think) turret mounts. And a gank-fit can pull 1600 dps with high skills. Thats alot of damage, possibly OP? The Minmatar Tempest has 6 gun mounts, does less damage, and tanks less... and it has no bonuses for drones (though it can field them). I don't want a different Domi, or a variable overpowered drone + gun ship (feared in many of these discussions because it would be obscenely overpowered). If escort carriers even have turret or launcher slots, it should be quite limited, hence, why I'm more prone to say turrets ought to be omitted from the design altogether.
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 399	Posted - 2013.01.07 16:46:00 - [18] - Quote Assuming Max skills and the Dominix as the hull no modules, it will pull 475 dps from t2 ogres, and will pull 602 dips from T2 neutron blaster cannons void charges. While this ship is considered a carrier the bulk of the damage comes from the blasters not the drones. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
sabre906 Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 554	Posted - 2013.01.07 17:12:00 - [19] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Assuming Max skills and the Dominix as the hull no modules, it will pull 475 dps from t2 ogres, and will pull 602 dips from T2 neutron blaster cannons void charges. While this ship is considered a carrier the bulk of the damage comes from the blasters not the drones. Domi is a geddon with the same bandwidth and blasters instead of lasers. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454
Hakan MacTrew Caledonian Heavy Industries Sick N' Twisted 202	Posted - 2013.01.07 18:02:00 - [20] - Quote sabre906 wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Assuming Max skills and the Dominix as the hull no modules, it will pull 475 dps from t2 ogres, and will pull 602 dips from T2 neutron blaster cannons void charges. While this ship is considered a carrier the bulk of the damage comes from the blasters not the drones. Domi is a geddon with the same bandwidth and blasters instead of lasers. Yeah, the gedons got the drone damage and hp buff too... Oh, wait... That's why those same drones would do 317 dps on the gedon. MODULAR DRONES MORE ORE SHIPS
Melingus Ye Olde Ore Industries 4	Posted - 2013.01.07 18:12:00 - [21] - Quote I thought when we talked ship potential it was always assumed at lvl 5 skills? Anyway, this is an example of the Domi I was referring to: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/61072-Dominix-Surprize-Sodomi-1864-DPS-104k-EHP.html We don't need more of these, and thats precisely the point of the majority of detractors to the escort carrier concept. They worry that we'll add utility and triage to something like that.
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 400	Posted - 2013.01.07 18:53:00 - [22] - Quote That the turrets on the dominix are not the problem, the problem is that they out dps the drones. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Melingus Ye Olde Ore Industries 4	Posted - 2013.01.07 18:58:00 - [23] - Quote Indeed, but my point being if we are looking at a carrier that will do damage with an increased number of drones from the usual 5 limit, having turrets is out of the question. 10 drones, such as in the proposal, can be balanced to the average gun decks of BS's.
Ines Tegator Towels R Us 210	Posted - 2013.01.07 21:11:00 - [24] - Quote Hakan MacTrew wrote: Someone touched on a support BS idea in another thread. His idea was to focus on things like projected ECCM, Tracking Links and Remote Sensor Boosters. If you could combine these with a Drone based ship with little or no weapon slots that had bonuses to cap transfer, it could fill a gap in the game as well as be shiny. That's kind of what I was thinking, and what it sounds like the OP is after too. This isn't meant to be an epic DPS platform; 10 unbonused drones are decent DPS, but not a pile of it, especially for a BS. Rather, it encourages utility use of the drones, for ewar, logi, etc. Sadly ewar drones are broken ATM due to stacking, but hopefully that gets fixed. Another idea came to me last night, instead of bonuses to logi (use the drones for that), create a new Anti-Ewar module taht only fits on this ship (and prehaps EAF's... hmmmm). Say your fleet mate is ECM'd, you target him, the module has a 5 sec spool up, and it breaks the ECM cycle, or reduces the TD effectiveness by 50%, etc.. That could be interesting, it helps counter ewar, and it's something that doesn't currently exist at all in any form. Also, supporting the no turrets crowd. Battleships are for pew, support ships are for support. Would the opposite of pew be wep?
Kesthely Fleet of the Damned Happy Endings 30	Posted - 2013.01.07 21:48:00 - [25] - Quote Your suggestions are rather game breaking. With the proposed ships, i don-¦t see any viable other bs sized ship. The same amount of dps as a (faction) pure gank BS WITH oversized Logistics capabilities? Even at TII prices theres nothing on par in its size, and would most likely replace 99.9% of the ships currently fielded in almost every scenario (pvp or pve) Trying to combine Remote Rep and a drone bonus with the maneuverability of a sub capital is not something this game needs.
Melingus Ye Olde Ore Industries 4	Posted - 2013.01.07 22:26:00 - [26] - Quote Thats not at all what I'm asking for. I realize and am trying to bring the concept forward in a limited way: A battleship style boat that is pure drone dependent. Equal DPS, no turrets. The gank Domi I posted is exactly what I, and you, DO NOT want to see implemented. In regards to the logistics or supportive role, I am open to discussion on what that may involve. -Thought a limited version of ship triage or cap boosting may be appropriate. -Thought an expanded cargohold, smaller than fitted haulers, but bigger than typical BS size holds so it could function as a mobile supplier of extra ammo or nanites. Why? It make sense this would be developed by either empires or alliances. It would provide a limited support ship with average combat abilities, NOT a superpowered gank drone boat that can heal the entire fleet while cap repping and carrying 50,000m3 of gear, more like: A tier 1 BS in terms of defenses. Fielding 10 drones, such that the drones would cap 1000 DPS full level 5 skills, No turrets. With either or (meaning pick one of the following:) a) limited remote rep, b) limited cap rep, c) cargo of approximately 10,000m3 for fleet support. With those conditions, it has a role, its useful, not overpowered on offence, and perfectly killable by others.
tleekett Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking 1	Posted - 2013.01.08 07:35:00 - [27] - Quote Interesting concept, you could base it off the current logi aspects with the bonuses for cap, armor, and shield being devided among the races. Support the no turrets aspect, but the ewar buff in battleship form is already supplied by the scorp. So making it like a giant gaudian with no turrets and 10 drones shouldn't be a problem. Also is a cruiser that can field 10 drones already in eve. It is called the gaurdian vexor. Why shouldn't there be a bs?
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 927	Posted - 2013.01.08 13:50:00 - [28] - Quote tleekett wrote: Interesting concept, you could base it off the current logi aspects with the bonuses for cap, armor, and shield being devided among the races. Support the no turrets aspect, but the ewar buff in battleship form is already supplied by the scorp. So making it like a giant gaudian with no turrets and 10 drones shouldn't be a problem. Also is a cruiser that can field 10 drones already in eve. It is called the gaurdian vexor. Why shouldn't there be a bs? You do know that the guardian vexor is a special case, right? And that the few that remain will never undock?
DJ P0N-3 Table Flippendeavors 136	Posted - 2013.01.08 14:10:00 - [29] - Quote Melingus wrote: 2. Triage. -The capital class carriers have a major role (as far as I can tell) in the triage of a large null fleet. I would propose triage capabilities for the escort carrier to have a useful range (30-50km rather than 6km) BUT a much smaller rep rate compared to the specialized logistics ships. This would keep the logi ships viable while giving an escort carrier the utility that its larger counterparts utilize all the time. 3. Tank -Similar to BS's, though I would expect perhaps a bit more hull, with shield or armor, racially dependent, following suit in lower quantities (like the distribution of shield, armor and hull in freighters for example). These two things do not go together. Unless you dramatically reduce the triage cycle time, going into triage is a death sentence for this ship. Five minutes of only being able to run local large-sized reppers with a battleship-ish tank and battleship capacitor will not hold this thing up under heavy fire or people with neuts. There's a huge difference between the rep power and buffer of a carrier and that of a battleship, and carriers can easily be nuked into the ground during their triage cycle. I would not recommend triage as a mechanic for this ship. If you want it to be less powerful than logistics ships, then there's no point in triage anyway. Just give it a set of bonuses to reppers or energy transfer or whatever you like.
tleekett Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking 1	Posted - 2013.01.09 03:51:00 - [30] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: tleekett wrote: Interesting concept, you could base it off the current logi aspects with the bonuses for cap, armor, and shield being devided among the races. Support the no turrets aspect, but the ewar buff in battleship form is already supplied by the scorp. So making it like a giant gaudian with no turrets and 10 drones shouldn't be a problem. Also is a cruiser that can field 10 drones already in eve. It is called the gaurdian vexor. Why shouldn't there be a bs? You do know that the guardian vexor is a special case, right? And that the few that remain will never undock? Yes I was just using it as an example.

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