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Sillente NiKunni
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Posted - 2005.06.18 17:59:00 -
[1]
i've log in the test server today and i've see the following thigns :
Isotopes per cycle : 450 (was 500 before)
Ferrogel reaction : 400 (was 300 before)
Nanotransistors : 1500 (was 1 200 before)
no freighter in it (skill or in the market, tso don't ask for price/skills).
The simple reaction remain the same (100 raw + 100 raw = 200 simple reaction)
the volume remain the same (for ferrogel as it's teh only one i've look after.
Maybe some trade goos change, but i think not (coolant & oxygen not).
ENjoy the new Patch end of June.
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Alt of Simon Illian
We are the BoBo.
We are not monkey
Don't fear the death, only enjoy the play.
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Busterd
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Posted - 2005.06.18 18:39:00 -
[2]
 Quote:
New complex reactions:
Fermionics 200 (+33%)
Ferrogel 400 (+33%)
Phenolics 2200 (+22%)
hypers 750 (+25%)
nanos 1500 (+25%)
fulleride 3000 (+66%)
sylram 6000 (+100%)
carbides 10000 (+100%) (!)
Sylrams, Carbides +100% output.
I think all these are fine except for carbides.
Prognoses:
- (patch)day 1: ppl will try to sell @ 200 pu, still. contracts will (ofcoz) move to 100 pu.
- day 5: market starts filling up with excesses from contracts that have stopped due to overproduction, undercutting the current ones; price @ 150 pu now.
- day 10: more contracts are declared void cause producers see that the influx of the carbs is too much. More stuff moves to market. Price on market now little about 100. Contracts are being pushed to 80.
- day 30: market flooded with carbs. prices fluctuating from a mere 50 to as high as 80 ISK pu. contracts will be around 50, the guys with good deals will prolly keep the 80 pu.
Similar thing will happen to sylramic fibers, fullerides, phenolic composites, but it'll take a bit longer.
I'm very sorry but I would really like to see the numbers on which these changes have been based ? We have about 200 T2 BPOs, running in about 80 factory slots concurrently 24/7. We are making all our own tech2 components too, in about 20 factory slots.
So I think I can say that I know what I'm talking about, numberwise.
I see people complaining about all the profit being @ the Tech2 Builder, not the component supplier or the POS owner; this is because 1. t2 bpos are scarce and 2. there is MUCH MORE demand then there is supply. This wil *NOT* change with these new numbers.
this is my 2isk, i hope somebody will say i'm wrong and prove it too 
--
nagamazon webshop
SCC is overrated >:) ! |
Sillente NiKunni
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Posted - 2005.06.19 08:57:00 -
[3]
hum have you look at the volume of output in a silo ofr nanotransistors, it's goind silly !!!
----------------------------------------------
Alt of Simon Illian
We are the BoBo.
We are not monkey
Don't fear the death, only enjoy the play.
|
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2005.06.19 09:39:00 -
[4]
I hope CCP raise the silo capacity. It's not fun or taxing having to empty a silo every 36 hours due to the sheer amount of product coming out of an advanced reactor. Its simply annoying, nothing more.
Please double the sizes.
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Bertie
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Posted - 2005.06.19 11:37:00 -
[5]
It's not the silos that will be the bigger problem - it's hauling. I know the Freighter will help things, but basically a twin-reactor Carbs POS cluster will now output 48k m3 of materials every DAY - that is an awful lot of hauling to be done. Basically anyone without a freighter needn't bother, and even if you have one your game is going to be haul haul haul. Not to mention increased jumps when some of the highways are shut down in NWO...
Increasing the output is all fine, but I'm not sure the 100% increase on Syls and Carbs is necessary. If we have got to see this much of an increase then PLEASE drop the volumes so that hauling doesn't become even more painful than it already is.
B
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Mistress D'Malice
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Posted - 2005.06.19 14:39:00 -
[6]
Is the test server now showing the next patch info?
------------------------------------------------
Black Lotus Official Forums - www.blacklotusclan.com
Contact Me - [email protected] |
Sillente NiKunni
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Posted - 2005.06.19 15:12:00 -
[7]
if freighter are avaible in large qty ( not so high price, bpo avaible ...) it's can be doable.
But if a freighter cost 1B ... no definitly no
----------------------------------------------
Alt of Simon Illian
We are the BoBo.
We are not monkey
Don't fear the death, only enjoy the play.
|
Cylynex
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Posted - 2005.06.19 16:02:00 -
[8]
This increase in advanced output is going to do nothing but flood out the market. There already is a greater supply than demand for these items (carbides hi???). There was no need for this change, other than making t2 bpo owners able to grab a higher profit margin for the same work. We need more t2 bpos not reduced profit from POS. If prices drop that much I will shut mine down, not worth running them for pennies of profit.
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Dloan
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Posted - 2005.06.19 16:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cylynex
This increase in advanced output is going to do nothing but flood out the market.
That's what I was thinking. I thought the POS manufacturers were keeping up well with the demand, especially seeing as more POSes are going up all the time with the new POS incentives. Maybe they're going to require comps for things like freighters and dreads as well.
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Redundancy
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Posted - 2005.06.19 17:26:00 -
[10]
It's an entirely reasonable request to decrease the volumes, I'll take a look at them.
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Busterd
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Posted - 2005.06.19 18:16:00 -
[11]
Please take a look at the proposed changes again too Red, before u go thru with them.
It really is too many carbs (and sylrams and all the other stuff except for the 4 high-ends) ;-)
--
nagamazon webshop
SCC is overrated >:) ! |
Mistress D'Malice
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Posted - 2005.06.19 18:25:00 -
[12]
Is this test server info on whats in the next patch?? Like the outposts and freighters and changes to small POS's? I just dont want to install that thing again if its not the real info. :/
------------------------------------------------
Black Lotus Official Forums - www.blacklotusclan.com
Contact Me - [email protected] |
Snorkel
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Posted - 2005.06.19 18:25:00 -
[13]
Here here, emptying my pos every 36hrs is a frickin biatch
Being in any other area than caldari is a serious disadvantage for POS moon mining bases (unless you manage to get an expensive contract for caldari ice to a different empire space)
As such it would be nice to get the cargo bonus implemented for gallente towers say? Does the damage or missile velocity on the others actually work?
Gallente Racial Bonuses:
25% bonus to Hybrid Sentry Damage
100% bonus to Silo Cargo Capacity
Also doubling Carbides is nasty! Twice the amount of m3 for the same if not less value resulting in double hauling costs :/
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Karazaan
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Posted - 2005.06.19 20:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Busterd
I see people complaining about all the profit being @ the Tech2 Builder, not the component supplier or the POS owner; this is because 1. t2 bpos are scarce and 2. there is MUCH MORE demand then there is supply. This wil *NOT* change with these new numbers.
this is my 2isk, i hope somebody will say i'm wrong and prove it too
Theses new numbers are just to try to convince more people to build a large pos (thoses that did'nt yet since it change nothing for us that already have) and will not begin to compensate for all the ammos and missiles that will soon enter 100% production 24/7 to supply the whole universe with weapons of massive destruction.
The one who try to predict the eve market for a product in advance of a major patch might end up pretty surprised... I could almost say WILL end up... :)
Tech 2 battleship, hum, that's gonna take some carbides to build don't you think? |
Nifel
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Posted - 2005.06.19 23:13:00 -
[15]
With dreads coming could we have a look at all the cycles? It'd be nice if you didn't have to babysit POSes all the time. No need to starve out a POS when you can blow it up.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago." |
Dloan
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Posted - 2005.06.20 06:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Karazaan
Tech 2 battleship, hum, that's gonna take some carbides to build don't you think?
Over 115000 that just one POS can provide per day?
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Mansut
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Posted - 2005.06.20 13:13:00 -
[17]
Well unless CCP is going to release alot more BPOs, I can't see the reason for this increased output of carbides and fibers. I stopped producing Tungsten Carbide simply because the supply quickly outweighed the demand. And all I remember was the 5 trips I had to make just to get all those carbides to market. Now I'd have to make 10?!
Looking at the volumes is a very good move Redundancy but what is the reason for the increased outputs?
Bringing the wonder of Ferrogel to your doorstep. |
Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2005.06.20 14:34:00 -
[18]
Unless more t2 production is coming out with NWO, theses increases don't seem to be needed as the market is already showing signs of being over supplied.
however, if you are gonna implement them either decrease the volume of the reactions or icnrease the silo's capacity or it just makes these things so far from fun its silly.
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Bowcaster
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Posted - 2005.06.20 16:38:00 -
[19]
We've had this conversation repeatedly in POS Funtime, about how t2 production never meets demand, which is why their are people out there selling t2 stuff for way over the insurance cost. And while I know that every single pvp'ing griefer is going to cry "Well it's not fair!? They have to frown about me killing their ship in 0.0?!"
This is just immature, your going to lose millions in ship gear anyway! A decrease in price for t2 ships, or a increase in production costs is not going to change the world for griefers, or big corps. Either way you look at it. The t2 bpo lottery is ineffective at meeting the true demand for items in the market.
T2 pos owners are getting slated repeatedly in this remake of an oil market. The real problem is there is no "free market economy" for players to produce t2 materials unless;
-They have successfully recieved a t2 bpo for something that people are willing to buy after about 1 year or more researching with a excellent R&D agent.
-They have been playing for many many years, and have accumilated several billion to buy a overpriced t2 bpo.
-They enjoy the idea of paying the profit margin (at _current_ rates) for a t2 bpc.
If you consider any of the above mentioned ideals a "free market", I seriously think the game has design flaws.. At least where t2 production is concerned, people charge so much for t2 items not because it's a good deal, or because it's player driven, but because there is no alternative, other than the above-mentioned tactics.. which goes completely against the t1 production cycle.
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Karazaan
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Posted - 2005.06.20 17:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dloan
Edited by: Dloan on 20/06/2005 07:49:51
Edited by: Dloan on 20/06/2005 07:49:11
Originally by: Karazaan
Tech 2 battleship, hum, that's gonna take some carbides to build don't you think?
Over 115000 that just one POS can provide per day?
Having just done a quick calc, a HAC takes 28800 to build one. I think the production time is about 1 day and there are probably only about 10-20 BPOs of each in existance. If the HAC of one race is in full production, it would take the output of about 5 POSes to supply all the carbs per day.
Yes but I think they increased the production (doubled in that particular case) to prevent the lack of items on the market as more bpo get out.
Take NAGA for example. I have no ideas of their inner working BUT it safe to assume there is limitation on the slots number, their components production ability, their advance material and raw material production ability.
Now, they might have a copy of all the tech 2 bpo in the GAME, what does that give them, nothing if they cannot produce everything all the time... So they might have to say to someone wanting to buy a Claw, sorry buddy, we have put all our ressource on our brand new tech 2 battleship bpo we just got.
Even then, for them, it might not be an issue (they are used to thoses production bottleneck by now) but what about smaller guys? thoses that have one or two bpo? Thoses having the pos to supply their stuff normally? They get a tech 2 bs bpo, they are screwed. Or it's a race to buy all the carbide on the market as fast as possible, like some people raced to buy all the reactors on the market at one point (I know, I was there too).
So no it will not fix the problem, just help a little. It will not hurt thoses producing carbide because carbide will be in much greater demand and it will slightly help thoses buying carbide.
Sure the capacity of the silo need to be ajusting accordingly or maybe reduce the space one single carbide piece take... |
Karazaan
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Posted - 2005.06.20 17:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bowcaster
We've had this conversation repeatedly in POS Funtime, about how t2 production never meets demand, which is why their are people out there selling t2 stuff for way over the insurance cost.
Production already meet demand, it's just that as soon as there is a kinda oversupply, people stop producing so price don't fall too low. (free market)
Quote:
This is just immature, your going to lose millions in ship gear anyway!
It's everyone choice to decide what they put (risk) on their ship.
Quote:
A decrease in price for t2 ships, or a increase in production costs is not going to change the world for griefers, or big corps. Either way you look at it. The t2 bpo lottery is ineffective at meeting the true demand for items in the market.
How would like to know where you take that "ineffective at meeting" part... You know that the dev could release 1000 tech 2 bpo of each instead of 20 thru the lottery if they wished, but why would they do that? It would just kill the smaller builders.
Quote:
T2 pos owners are getting slated repeatedly in this remake of an oil market. The real problem is there is no "free market economy" for players to produce t2 materials unless;
-They have successfully recieved a t2 bpo for something that people are willing to buy after about 1 year or more researching with a excellent R&D agent.
-They have been playing for many many years, and have accumilated several billion to buy a overpriced t2 bpo.
-They enjoy the idea of paying the profit margin (at _current_ rates) for a t2 bpc.
Sure, anyway you put it, there is around 50000 peoples that would want a bpo and they release less than that, sure price are going to be proportionnate to how many really want it, and their wallet.
BTW, there is no such thing as an overpriced bpo. If they do an aunction and it finish at 30 bil, it's not overpriced, if someone decide to pay that, it's the current price. Like the stock market, if someone agree to pay a certain price (REDICULOUS) for a stock, IT IS the current market price. Eve market is strongly mirrored on that btw.
Quote:
If you consider any of the above mentioned ideals a "free market", I seriously think the game has design flaws.. At least where t2 production is concerned, people charge so much for t2 items not because it's a good deal, or because it's player driven, but because there is no alternative, other than the above-mentioned tactics.. which goes completely against the t1 production cycle.
Yes but there IS no alternative so that it keep it's value. t1 market is dead unless you like to deplete the trit you mined all day, so you can even go below the ressource price (that's why I think tech 2 was not even based on regular min in the first place but components. When they released components bpo I was like: NO!
But the fact is it's ok since it's HARD to get thoses components building materials and by hard I mean you need a POS (or someone else to buy from) that is in risky space. So anybody that sell UNDER his production cost will turn out dead because he will not be able to keep that up indefinitely AND if he sell below market, someone will just buy everything and sell higher...
...like you will all see pretty soon. Evaporite deposite for 70 isk each? Seriously? lol... is it me or my ice cost me more than that... :) |
Dloan
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Posted - 2005.06.20 18:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Karazaan
Yes but I think they increased the production (doubled in that particular case) to prevent the lack of items on the market as more bpo get out.
Problem is the POS industry has plenty of room for expansion, it is doing all the time. CCP don't need to increase material outputs to increase the number of comps, people need to put up more POSes, and they will.
Quote:
It will not hurt thoses producing carbide because carbide will be in much greater demand and it will slightly help thoses buying carbide.
This is an assumption that I wouldn't want to bet on. I think it's safe to assume the changes to POS will result in more people producing carbides. Increasing the quantities as well could be overkill and can always be changed at a later date if necessary.
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Karazaan
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Posted - 2005.06.20 23:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dloan
I think it's safe to assume the changes to POS will result in more people producing carbides. Increasing the quantities as well could be overkill and can always be changed at a later date if necessary.
My guess is that they know how many bpo they are soon to release and they did a premptive strike, don't you think? |
Dloan
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Posted - 2005.06.21 06:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Karazaan
My guess is that they know how many bpo they are soon to release and they did a premptive strike, don't you think?
No, I don't. Otherwise Redundancy wouldn't be coming in here to tell us they're open to change. He can't possibly know how many more POSes are going to be put up over the next few weeks or what they're going to produce.
Adopting a wait and see policy would be a whole lot better than putting a load of POSes out of business.
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Lacero Callrisian
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Posted - 2005.06.21 08:24:00 -
[25]
I agree douling the volume of carbides is bad, the price seems to have started dropping on them anyway.
Possibly the extra sylramics etc. will mean we need more carbides to use them all up, but I think the market can cope with that. Especially when the 50% fuel rate comes into effect.
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Busterd
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Posted - 2005.06.21 08:26:00 -
[26]
They *never* did something preemptive afaik, and certainly not of this lvl of importancy.
besides, that would be just *stupid* too; they are killing a market to increase it ? didn't (don't hope) think so.
CCP has way more numbers then we do, but that doesn't mean they are actually interpreting them as they should; an economist *could* help, but judging by the total amount of POS atm + the fact that there are not too many big producer complaining / searching for more base materials should kinda tell that we are cool as we are atm; some numbers could need some minor adjustments, but anything > 33% (even 20%) isn't to be called "minor" anymore imho.
The POS Business needs more output, that's the only thing keeping the industry from booming; don't have to make it "easier" to run a POS, u just have to give us more customers (yes i'm referring to more t2 bpos again)
--
nagamazon webshop
SCC is overrated >:) ! |
Mansut
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Posted - 2005.06.21 13:50:00 -
[27]
The logic that increasing the reaction outputs will cause an increase in the number of POS seems extremely skewed to me especially since there is no foreseeable increase in the number of T2 BPOs (therefore no increase in demand).
When there is an icrease in supply with no increase in demand, less people will want to enter the market. Hell I know quite a few people that have stopped production of one or more complex materials because the market became flooded and they refused to sell them at the current market price.
These changes just don't make sense.
Bringing the wonder of Ferrogel to your doorstep. |
Sillente NiKunni
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Posted - 2005.06.21 14:29:00 -
[28]
yes need more TII BPO.
too many common complex are not sell.
----------------------------------------------
Alt of Simon Illian
We are the BoBo.
We are not monkey
Don't fear the death, only enjoy the play.
|
Mistress D'Malice
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Posted - 2005.06.21 15:17:00 -
[29]
As I have stated in other posts, POS's are fine really the way they are as a whole. Sure reduction in fuel consumption or M3 would be great, but considering the oppurtunity owning your own space station allows, it should be hard work.
Now for the market, yes we need more Tech2 bpo's. The original 20 owners of each bpo have made there billions, they should seed a few more of each type in slowly maybe every couple weeks.
The problems with POS market is not in operational expense, but overall profitability. Profit margins on Tech2 comps and reactions need to increase, which will promote more POS's to drop. If prices continue as low as they are now vs cost, people will be forced to run only a select few reactions/comps that are profitable. And we see that already dont we?
CCP needs to place REALISTIC NPC pricing to stablize the market pricing. If an NPC is going to buy all your atmospheric gases at 200PU, why would I sell to anyone else for less?
*** NPC PRICING IS NEEDED TO RAISE AND STABILIZE THE TECH2 REACTION/COMP MARKET! :)
------------------------------------------------
Black Lotus Official Forums - www.blacklotusclan.com
Contact Me - [email protected] |
Sillente NiKunni
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Posted - 2005.06.21 15:21:00 -
[30]
hum disagree....
if all POS owner sell this gaze for 200 isk, did it work as the same ??
using NPC to stabilize is a bad idea.... the raw from moon disapear and all the ppl who whant ot buy them have 0 on the market.....
----------------------------------------------
Alt of Simon Illian
We are the BoBo.
We are not monkey
Don't fear the death, only enjoy the play.
|
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