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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:00:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Aelius on 19/06/2005 19:06:07
This char has 7.5M skill points in science and every time i think about the time i took to gather them makes me wana cry 
Some people have the same amount in gunnery for example and at least they can see the profit of them. They hit better, make more damage etc.
Why the hell did i thought a scientist would be the profession of the future and trained this  :
Advanced Project Management LV5 
CSE LV5
Hydromagnetic Physics LV5
Electromagnetic Physics LV5
etc.
500K RPs over 6 agents and the only revenue i have from science is the Raven BPCs i sell?
You talk about Cosmos and missile overhaul and changes to this and that.
HOW ABOUT SCIENCE
That is the most "crapy lowest given attention by CCP devs" profession EVER
I don't like to make any ultimatos but if i don't see improvements in the next 3 months (gives you enough time do FINALY do something) i'm going to cancel my subscription till you make some.
I already have all science skills anyone who is a scientist would wish for, so it doesn't matter to me if my char doesn't train while i have my 2 accounts canceled.
If more "wana be, but CCP doesn't let" science guys make the same i'm sure they will start giving it a little love.
(this post is not supposed to be a flame but once and a while one loses his patience)
Best regards
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
DukDodgerz
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:09:00 -
[2]
cookie?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:24:00 -
[3]
signed,
I wanted to be a scienties too when I started, for about 2h, then I found out all I could do was buying BPO and selling BPC
No sig today |
Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:34:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Nafri
signed,
I wanted to be a scienties too when I started, for about 2h, then I found out all I could do was buying BPO and selling BPC
I too wanted to become a scientist in the hopes of getting fame and fortune trough my evil inventions. Then my friends (Who where already playing for a bit) laughed at me and told me to go mine.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Rhyslin
7.5 mil? I have 25.7 mil so I feel your pain 
In science or reading?
Neither, methinks.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Rhyslin
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:39:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Rhyslin on 19/06/2005 19:40:57
7.5 mil? I have 25.7 mil so I feel your pain
If you're wondering, that's all of the sci skills on the market to L5, except for RPM, which is at L3 and will remain there. No point getting more agents... 4 times zero chance is the same as 6 times zero chance. 
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Crusher166
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: Nafri
signed,
I wanted to be a scienties too when I started, for about 2h, then I found out all I could do was buying BPO and selling BPC
I too wanted to become a scientist in the hopes of getting fame and fortune trough my evil inventions. Then my friends (Who where already playing for a bit) laughed at me and told me to go mine.
and he did mine. Through many ages he mined, untill the veldspar roids engulfed him with great vengeance and furious anger.
Crusher - Sybrite Inc. |
Rhyslin
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Rhyslin
7.5 mil? I have 25.7 mil so I feel your pain
In science or reading?
Neither, methinks.
No, I have 25.7 mil in science, 36.7 mil overall, if you thought I had confused the two...
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aeti
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rhyslin
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Rhyslin
7.5 mil? I have 25.7 mil so I feel your pain
In science or reading?
Neither, methinks.
No, I have 25.7 mil in science, 36.7 mil overall, if you thought I had confused the two...
that has to suck :(
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.06.19 19:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rhyslin
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Rhyslin
7.5 mil? I have 25.7 mil so I feel your pain
In science or reading?
Neither, methinks.
No, I have 25.7 mil in science, 36.7 mil overall, if you thought I had confused the two...
Doesn't that mean you would have had to start training half the skills before they were released, or am I just way out on my implementation dates?
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Kunming
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Posted - 2005.06.19 20:00:00 -
[11]
Totally agree...
I went like this when I read about archology in the COSMOS blog, so my hopes are high.
On the other hand the lottery system we have atm is an atrocracy. There are like 20-30k players, yet we see single corps gather all the BPOs, if thats what u wanted good job CCP, but I was more hoping to see group of corps getting together to specialise in let say T2 frigate or weapon production, etc. Skill points, time, efford mean nothing its just pure luck... how retarted of an idea that is!
The answer is so simple, BPCs. Those that have the skills trained and doing something for it will get rewarded. And by doing something I dont mean hauling 1000 units of garbage, thats not science thats just being the errant boy for your agent. About the content part we have to wait for COSMOS, but BPCs is something that can be changed and have an immediate effect.
Yet we see the devs work on the new "Voice of EVE" and some borked chat features... cant remember anyone complaining or requesting for it.
Intercepting since BETA |
Rhyslin
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Posted - 2005.06.19 20:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Avon
Doesn't that mean you would have had to start training half the skills before they were released, or am I just way out on my implementation dates?
I train at the rate of a little under 1.7 mil SP/month (which isn't the highest, by the way). A rank 5 adv sci skill takes about 3 weeks now from 0. I have been training science exclusively, except for the advanced learning skills, for probably about a year.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.06.19 20:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rhyslin
Originally by: Avon
Doesn't that mean you would have had to start training half the skills before they were released, or am I just way out on my implementation dates?
I train at the rate of a little under 1.7 mil SP/month (which isn't the highest, by the way). A rank 5 adv sci skill takes about 3 weeks now from 0. I have been training science exclusively, except for the advanced learning skills, for probably about a year.
I wasn't questioning how fast you can train skills, more how long they have been available.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
LukAsh
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Posted - 2005.06.19 20:41:00 -
[14]
This char has 3,5M in science. Tho my alt in 2 weeks will have 10M in science (almost perfect R&D - 6 agents all, except 1, high quality lvl4's with lvl5 skills). Talk about overkill.
But then I have had my share of luck and got more ISK than I could imagine before...
What I don't like about the lottery is that anyone with minimum effort can be a researcher and can win a BP. Take into account how many more of those kind of players are out there and you will se that they get most of BP's. It should be much more difficult to enter the lottry (skill and isk wise).
___
WTB: +5 Implants (WIL, CHA)
WTB: Malediction BPO |
LukAsh
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Posted - 2005.06.19 20:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rhyslin
I have been training science exclusively, except for the advanced learning skills, for probably about a year.
Why for the love of... whould you do such a thing?
___
WTB: +5 Implants (WIL, CHA)
WTB: Malediction BPO |
Oolia
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Posted - 2005.06.19 20:57:00 -
[16]
What lottery? There is a lottery? How does it work? Where is it? How does a player enter?
Sorry, total nOOb when it comes to anything science.
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Arbenowskee
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Posted - 2005.06.19 22:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rhyslin
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Rhyslin
7.5 mil? I have 25.7 mil so I feel your pain
In science or reading?
Neither, methinks.
No, I have 25.7 mil in science, 36.7 mil overall, if you thought I had confused the two...
i wanna see some pics :)
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Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2005.06.19 22:44:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 19/06/2005 22:45:10
I feel your pain. IRL, I have just finished training Electronic Engineering V, took me four years of grinding to get that done, and I see all my friends who trained Gunnery going around doing exciting things, with me not even getting a cookie by way of consolation. 
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.06.19 22:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 19/06/2005 22:45:10
I feel your pain. IRL, I have just finished training Electronic Engineering V, took me four years of grinding to get that done, and I see all my friends who trained Gunnery going around doing exciting things, with me not even getting a cookie by way of consolation.
Damn, your engineering dept SUCKS. At UK if you even walk into a meeting of more than 3 people they have a tray of cookies - if theres more than a dozen people they have pizza!
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.06.19 22:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Oolia
What lottery? There is a lottery? How does it work? Where is it? How does a player enter?
Sorry, total nOOb when it comes to anything science.
Get access to a Research Agent. The better the agent, and the better your applicable science skill, the more tickets you get.
Unless you spend 6 months training for various science skills, your chance of seeing a BPO from it are about zero. If you do make a huge investment, you might see something in a year or three (and it will more likely be an average or crap BPO than a great one).
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Bowcaster
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Posted - 2005.06.19 23:02:00 -
[21]
I agree, the BPO lottery program is a total waste of time, why can't they make it exciting, or interesting for that matter? I've been training for Duvolle for about a month. I'm starting to think I'd be better off training for something else like pirating, where there is a actual payoff.
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Hellspawn666
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Posted - 2005.06.19 23:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Crusher166
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: Nafri
signed,
I wanted to be a scienties too when I started, for about 2h, then I found out all I could do was buying BPO and selling BPC
I too wanted to become a scientist in the hopes of getting fame and fortune trough my evil inventions. Then my friends (Who where already playing for a bit) laughed at me and told me to go mine.
and he did mine. Through many ages he mined, untill the veldspar roids engulfed him with great vengeance and furious anger.
hmm what that i smell? pulp fiction?
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.06.19 23:03:00 -
[23]
On a seperate note, some things to think on:
THE reason tech II BPOs are desirable is because they are rare. Having Rare things in a game is GOOD.
So long as they are desirable, folks will work to get them.
And power gamers will always have the advantage.
At least with the lottery, the rest of us have a chance.
The only way that we could have a better chance would be if the rarity factor was eliminated, which I don't recommend.
About the only change I'd make would be continuous introduction of BPOs over time. No more than currently for the first 6 months to a year after introduction to the game, but then slowly add more.
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2005.06.19 23:19:00 -
[24]
i thought it made you real good with probes and stuff like that. scanning abiltys.
i didnt know they had no use.
glad i didnt work them.
cant you mine better or somthing?
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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.06.19 23:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: OffBeaT
i thought it made you real good with probes and stuff like that. scanning abiltys.
i didnt know they had no use.
glad i didnt work them.
cant you mine better or somthing?
Some science skills are indeed to scan probes and to mine better, but i was refering to the category "research".
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Vegeta
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Posted - 2005.06.20 00:08:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bowcaster
I agree, the BPO lottery program is a total waste of time, why can't they make it exciting, or interesting for that matter? I've been training for Duvolle for about a month. I'm starting to think I'd be better off training for something else like pirating, where there is a actual payoff.
Which payoff would that be? :)
2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
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Lo3d3R
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Posted - 2005.06.20 01:37:00 -
[27]
science science science, all good and fine, but they "scientist" that got that TII cap recharger BPO should hang on the highest pole in Yulai.
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2005.06.20 02:04:00 -
[28]
I've said this quite a few times before:
What's wrong with science and t2 atm, is that it's TOO easy to do it.
Also anything more than the basic skills for science is almost a COMPLETE waste of sp's (compared to gunnery for example).
It's so ridiculously easy to bag 5 R&D agents that I bet every single person in eve has at least 1 character doing it (I know of a person with at least 10 chars doing R&D).
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Khidr
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Posted - 2005.06.20 02:14:00 -
[29]
I would have thought it self evident that a few corps in the game would obtain whether through their own player base, or via purchase as many bp's as possible. I don't see anything wrong with this either, thats the advantage gained from being in a larger corporation/alliance. The benfits once you actually gain a bp are enormous and thus should be hard to get.
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Serilla
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Posted - 2005.06.20 03:12:00 -
[30]
training science skill has ALWAYS been a complete waste of time.
"scientists" to ccp are just agent runners.. thats all you really do.
You dont research anything.. a npc does it for you.
the only thing a 'scientist' can do is make bp copys faster than other ppl.
And who needs faster bp copys?
Why not just train it up to lvl 1 and put rest in gunnery/mining so u can blow stuff up and mine to replace your ships.
Science is a waste and it will take them 1-2 years before they fix it.
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Branmuffin
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Posted - 2005.06.20 03:41:00 -
[31]
You could also make them difficult to obtain, which is not the same as rare and random.
Most researchers would like it if they actually could do SOMETHING to get bpo's and bpc's in thier fields.
Heck if they got rid of the lottery completely and put a tetris minigame into eve and doled out bpc's and bpo's on comparative high scores the collective joy from researchers would probably resemble orgasm.
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infused
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Posted - 2005.06.20 03:41:00 -
[32]
This gets posted all the time and I have never seen a DEV or GM say anything about it. Pretty obvious they either A) Don't care, or B) Have something they are working on. I hope it is the later...
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2005.06.20 03:44:00 -
[33]
yes, for example remove the 1mission cap.
The lottery is still there and a bit crappy, but the REAL scientists get to do something that they can call "a job".
Not that it could compare to the isk the normal agent runners make nowadays....
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.20 06:49:00 -
[34]
The lottery is the best intermediate solution to the research game. It allows CCP to directly control the amount of TII BPO's ingame, which is what any other alternative would need.
It ain't interactive (c'mon, missions?) it ain't fun (did it for a few months, got tired of it real fast), but it's the best solution nonetheless
Also, can I have your char, Aelius?
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Sybylle
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Posted - 2005.06.20 07:29:00 -
[35]
Science has failed...
I too bought Eve in order to be a researcher/scientist.
But this is clearly the most boring activity, worse than mining IMHO.
And, worse of all, it cost you time, money, sp to get a #insert random and totally independent number here# chances of getting something.
As science is managed now, I think everybody should automatically get a ticket (agent) while entering game...Just to get more chances to spread BPOs...
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)=Oveur (proof)
"Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2005.06.20 09:11:00 -
[36]
training such long skills to 5 without knowing ull benefit from it isnt very smart
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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.06.20 09:13:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Discorporation
The lottery is the best intermediate solution to the research game. It allows CCP to directly control the amount of TII BPO's ingame, which is what any other alternative would need.
It ain't interactive (c'mon, missions?) it ain't fun (did it for a few months, got tired of it real fast), but it's the best solution nonetheless
Also, can I have your char, Aelius?
Want my stuff also? 
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Joe
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Posted - 2005.06.20 09:30:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Aelius
This char has 7.5M skill points in science and every time i think about the time i took to gather them makes me wana cry....Why the hell did i thought a scientist would be the profession of the future....500K RPs over 6 agents and the only revenue i have from science is the Raven BPCs i sell?
....if i don't see improvements in the next 3 months....i'm going to cancel my subscription....
OMG, WHAT A RUBBISH WHINE
so, your going to quit/suspend accounts because:
 you didn't win a Totally Random lottery?
you Chose to Invested 5mil sp in skills that you didn't need, & dont use?
Fine by me. Here's a Cookie, sorry you missed the point.
2.5 mil sp total for Research Project management (2m in RPM 5, 250k in research 5 & 250k in science 5) = Free lottery tickets each day.
Why did you train the other 5mil sp in science skills if you weren't going to use them?
I have 7 mil sp in science aswell. I use every skill I trained for.
lvl 5 Cybernetics - for the MY-2 implant in my head.
lvl 5 Laboratory Operation - Running Bpo research & copying in 6 labs
lvl 5 Astrogeology - For Dcm II's (on my osprey )
lvl 5 RPM, Science & Research - free tickets for Tech II lottery
lvl 5 metallurgy & research - for researching Me&Pe lvls on Tech II bpos.
lvl 3-4 'engineering & physics' skills (16 total) - copying and researching Pe&Me lvls on Tech II bpos. (6 used for R&D agent access)
R&D 'research' is a lottery, something with random prizes, its even better than a normall lottery, you don't have to spend isk each day to get your tickets. A nice bonus that may give you a BPO II, instead of working hard, saving your isk, and buying the print in a trade channel (from some lucky dude) You do not Deserve a BPO for simply training some skills.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.06.20 09:31:00 -
[39]
Your post is a kind of proof that T2 should never have been the lottery thing it currently is.
I mean seriously... what would've been wrong in a system where research people actually research and advance T1 stuff into T2 BPs by investing time and resources in their research projects?
It would've been easy, too. Way easier than the totally overcomplicated POS T2 component production thing for example.
- get T1 BPO
- research until ML/PL have minimum required specs for T2 advancement
- get the horendously expensive "developement license" (or whatever the hell you wanna call it) required to improve the BPO
- start the research project in a lab
- have the project require ****loads of time and resources over time
- bingo
That would've been a basis to expand the entire researching thing and it would've prevented a hell of a lot of problems with the current T2 implementation.
T2 as it currently is has only one advantage... and that is that the lottery system artificially keeps T2 'rare'. The same could however be accomplished through extremely high resource requirements in a "conventional" research system.
But hey... what do I know...
Maybe people prefer a system where you have the chance of never getting anything at all for the time and money you put in and where you never actually "research" anything.
Current research is just a different type of agent whoring. Nothing new really.
I feel ya Aelius. Thought I was going to do research aswell but quickly decided it's not worth it. At all.
Mai's Idealog |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.20 09:48:00 -
[40]
That won't work, mai, even if CCP controlled the amount of development licenses.
In the end there needs to be a system which grants relative nubs or poor people the chance of getting the TII bpo, at the same time controlling the amound.
I like the rest of that suggestion, but limiting BPO's by making the build component 'expensive' never works
(A systme like that'd work with COSMOS, though, where mini-professions could generate breakthroughs, 'd be viable next to agents)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.06.20 09:57:00 -
[41]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 20/06/2005 10:04:04
Originally by: Discorporation
That won't work, mai, even if CCP controlled the amount of development licenses.
...
I like the rest of that suggestion, but limiting BPO's by making the build component 'expensive' never works
I don't think so. We're more than two years into the game. Back in the days CCP didn't expect people to make money that fast because they didn't have the experience they have now.
At this point they have a lot more data to analyze before setting up prices.
Added to that, limiting licenses is practially the same as limiting the amount of BPOs dished out through lottery.
The only difference is the fact that the BPOs would go to the hands of players who actively play the game and who actually know what to do with them.
Quote:
In the end there needs to be a system which grants relative nubs or poor people the chance of getting the TII bpo, at the same time controlling the amound.
Why? I mean... what did a newb do to actually earn that BPO? Why should he receive billions of isk while at the same time somebody who invested two friggin' years into EvE might never receive anything at all?
Mai's Idealog |
Joe
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Posted - 2005.06.20 10:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Your post is a kind of proof that T2 should never have been the lottery thing it currently is.
It contains no 'truths' or proof that there is anyhting wrong with current system, its simply 1 man having a whine and threatening to quite because he A) didn't win random lottery, & B) invested 5mil sp (on a 3rd account alt?) in skills that he never actually needed or could put to use.
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
what would've been wrong in a system where research people actually research and advance T1 stuff into T2 BPs by investing time and resources in their research projects?
Unemployed bums would run agents allday to gain Tech II bpo (can you say 'farming'?)
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
T2 as it currently is has only one advantage... and that is that the lottery system artificially keeps T2 'rare'. The same could however be accomplished through extremely high resource requirements in a "conventional" research system.
the lottery system doesn't make BPO rare, GM's manipulate the release amounts to do that, the lottery system only ensures it go's out to anybody, not just people farming R&D agents
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Maybe people prefer a system where you have the chance of never getting anything at all for the time and money you put in and where you never actually "research" anything.
R&D doesn't have to take any time or isk once the skills are trained and agent has been selected.
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Current research is just a different type of agent whoring. Nothing new really.
wrong. R&D can't be completed by Unemployed bums who agent grind all day. (see lp, and Navy BS)
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
I feel ya Aelius. Thought I was going to do research aswell but quickly decided it's not worth it. At all.
training a couple of skills for free lottery tickets each day isn't worth it? |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.06.20 10:13:00 -
[43]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 20/06/2005 10:14:17
Originally by: Joe
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Your post is a kind of proof that T2 should never have been the lottery thing it currently is.
It contains no 'truths' or proof that there is anyhting wrong with current system, its simply 1 man having a whine and threatening to quite because he A) didn't win random lottery, & B) invested 5mil sp (on a 3rd account alt?) in skills that he never actually needed or could put to use.
That's your opinion.
Consider though: Is it really fair that someone who has been playing this game for more than two years might never receive anything at all in terms of research? I know Aelius and about him playing since more than two years and even though he invested more than 5m SP into research he might never actually get to do any research. Not fair IMO. Not at all.
Originally by: Joe
Unemployed bums would run agents allday to gain Tech II bpo (can you say 'farming'?)
You need to read that party of my post again as you clearly didn't comprehend. No offense, mate.
Quote:
R&D doesn't have to take any time or isk once the skills are trained and agent has been selected.
And this is one more thing I completely dislike about it. You can be a lazy ass and still get the billions. This is by definition lotto, not research & developement.
Originally by: Joe
training a couple of skills for free lottery tickets each day isn't worth it?
For me it isn't. I play the game to play, not take part in some stupid lottery where you don't actually do anything but hoping for the lucky strike. If I want lucky strikes I go hunt NPCs and count wrecking hits.
Mai's Idealog |
The Cosmopolite
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Posted - 2005.06.20 10:16:00 -
[44]
The current 'science' system should probably be replaced by something that is co-operative.
Which is to say, no science project should be do-able by someone on their own. (It's a MMOG after all...)
Tech 2 should require a number of workers dependent on a notional 'size' of the project. This number could be affected downwards by skills and there should be a chance of failure of course.
I also don't believe they should be BPOs unless the effort is corporate. (...and that implies a shakeup of corporate governance also - which is another thing this game needs desperately.)
For eg. a non-corp co-operative effort in researching a HAC BP may require 10 player scientists (with various different specialities) and if they are successful they get a HAC BPC each (let's say 10 runs).
A corporate co-op project on the same HAC aimed at a BPO might require 20 player scientists (note that this would promote science corporations), have a somewhat higher failure chance and the BPO is owned by the corporation. (Hence corp systems would need to be changed considerably.)
A very loose idea but something of the sort is needed. The lottery is just silly and science should be a co-op profession.
Pie in the sky of course (given how many things would have to be changed) but thought I'd throw it in.
Cosmo
Jericho Fraction - CEO: Jade Constantine |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.20 11:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
I don't think so. We're more than two years into the game. Back in the days CCP didn't expect people to make money that fast because they didn't have the experience they have now.
At this point they have a lot more data to analyze before setting up prices.
it's so retardedly easy to make money, that isks is never a good argument to determine the amount of work that a player puts into the game. A full-on PvP-er that spends 12 hours a day roaming around and trying to score kills could make a lot less cash then a 12 hour mission runner or miner, yet they all put in the same amount of work. That's why 'make things expensive!' won't work.
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Added to that, limiting licenses is practially the same as limiting the amount of BPOs dished out through lottery.
The only difference is the fact that the BPOs would go to the hands of players who actively play the game and who actually know what to do with them.
Yes, but how do you hand out licenses? If you sell them on the market and still retain the small amount of T x BPO's available, it'l come down to luck and market reaction time. Seeing how the market seeds (set timer every X hours), or how CCP hand-seeds, the effect will be the same as the bpo lottery. It'll come down to luck.
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Why? I mean... what did a newb do to actually earn that BPO? Why should he receive billions of isk while at the same time somebody who invested two friggin' years into EvE might never receive anything at all?
I imagine the player who spent 2 years playing didn't sit around on his b-hind all day, doing nothing. He'll have VASTLY more assets to his disposal then the new kid, and a system where rich players are made even richer by buying dev. licenses does no good for the distribution of wealth.
I like your suggestions, though, apart form the 'lets make them expensive!'
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.06.20 11:25:00 -
[46]
You can see more ideas here
Its a locked topic but a very good discusion. I hope mods don't mind
Cheers
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
KingsGambit
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Posted - 2005.06.20 11:45:00 -
[47]
Having had a fair share of luck in the lottery and grief from R&D agents I suppose I can see both sides of the argument. The ultimate weakness of the lottery system is possibly also one if it's greatest strengths, but there are two main factors to it. The first is the random distribution of BPOs, and the second is that getting RPs is based on real-time and not play time.
Like SPs, RPs are gathered over time at a set amount depending on attributes in the case of SPs, and skills in the case of RPs. With the missions doubling RPs for a day, there is an incentive to a little work to double your RPs for the day, but this system doesn't give any significant benefits to power-gamers, which in other MMOs can truly dominate the casual or infrequent gamer. Eve has isk for those who put in more play time, but advancement by real-time is fair for casual and power gamers alike.
Getting back to the random distribution part, assuming that they system is a perfect, random one based purely on stats, which I think it is (following early teething troubles), then as with players who invest more SPs in a particular field and/or have been playing longer, will have a higher % chance of winning, whilst not precluding newer players from getting in on it as well. That is how it should be.
The rarity and nature of T2 prints though, does mean that some people however are much luckier than others. For those corps/players who were winners earlier on also will have a distinct advantage by having had more time to acquire wealth and/or more BPOs through subsequent wins or purchases with the wealth. But that is the same as RL, where we have giants like Microsoft, Coca-Cola and GM at the pinnacle of corporate business, and myriad other businesses with different specialisations whose profits come in slightly different ways. If an in-game corp has enough money to part a newer player from his BPO, in the long run, they have that much more power and profitability.
While there are a few problems with the T2 handout system (eg Small Shield Booster II compared with X-Large Shield Booster II, 280mm Howie II compared with 1400mm Howie II, Cap Recharger II, etc), and the fact that many T2 BPOs are no longer patentable, it is ultimately completely player driven, and that is what Eve is about. I wouldn't like to see T2 BPOs available for an exchange of LPs for example, though funnily enough, months ago I did propose they ought to be, but I think my opinion has matured somewhat when you consider how that sort of system really would affect the game in the bigger picture.
Limited run T2 BPCs is a good idea however, in exchange for a few k RPs. Without breaking the economy, it would give science heavy characters a source of income relative to the SP investment they put in, and that is quite fair, considering how that is applied to agent runners, miners, industrialists and pirates, whose earnings go up with SP invested in related skills. It would also encourage further skill training to be able to make use of varied BPC offers if they aren't sold for straight isk, and wouldn't have a major threat to established manufacturers and BPO holders. |
V2GBR
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Posted - 2005.06.20 11:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Rhyslin
7.5 mil? I have 25.7 mil so I feel your pain
In science or reading?
Neither, methinks.
LMAO classic :D
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http://guc.webinventions.co.uk <-- GUC Site.
www.webinventions.co.uk <-- My eve history. |
SPIONKOP
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Posted - 2005.06.20 12:16:00 -
[49]
Come on folks, can you see CCP investing any more development time in research and making it better. Not a chance for the Tech II Stuff. The current system works but with billions of RP's around you need some luck thats all. Its not perfect but it does work.
CCP are concentrating on other aspects of the game. Combat, outposts, balance changes, NWO. Why go back and change something that would be of little value to the game?
I suspect your research/science skills will not go to waste. I am sure they will come in handy for Tech III when you will only be able to build the stuff in starbases out in 0.0 space (correct me if I am wrong).
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Khidr
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Posted - 2005.06.20 12:48:00 -
[50]
What is it with people? Expecting something because someone else has 1? Do you think in RL every researcher/scientist has a major breakthrough? i mean really, get over it
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Angry Sheep
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Posted - 2005.06.20 13:15:00 -
[51]
I also have 7.5 mil in skil points in science and I can say even though some 'feel' wasted I actuall like th elottery system!!
It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
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Angry Sheep
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Posted - 2005.06.20 13:16:00 -
[52]
mental note to self - check spelling before hitting post
It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
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Trader Klyde
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Posted - 2005.06.20 14:18:00 -
[53]
I'm not gonna delve into the lottery system, as I can see it's good points and bad points.
I would like to work for my R&D agents though, with some meaningful work. And no, hauling garbage is not meaningful. It would be cool if the R&D agents gave missions like normal agents only with a science twist involved and with some rewards, instead of just an ISK sink.
It would also be nice if the labs worked in all aspects too. Reverse Engineering anyone?
I started out training up for science and quickly realized that it was time wasted other than for the lottery aspect. I was hoping for so much more. 
________________________________________________
From deep in space where nobody hears my screams...
Sometimes in fear, sometimes in anger, mostly just my singing style. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.20 14:25:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Discorporation on 20/06/2005 14:25:19
Originally by: Trader Klyde
I'm not gonna delve into the lottery system, as I can see it's good points and bad points.
I would like to work for my R&D agents though, with some meaningful work. And no, hauling garbage is not meaningful. It would be cool if the R&D agents gave missions like normal agents only with a science twist involved and with some rewards, instead of just an ISK sink.
"Hey man,
Our research is going great! We've discovered an entirely different way to link the ([technobabble1]) to ([technobabble2]) via the ([technobabble3]).
You know what would help immensely?
Ive heard of a archeological site somewhere in ([Constellation X]). Now, that's nothing special, we don't think they'll find anything worthwhile, but the archeologists are rumoured to use an experimental fusion cutter to seperate their asteroids. If you could confiscate it and deliver it to our labs, perhaps we can incorporate it into the designs we're working on."
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Nibble
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Posted - 2005.06.20 14:40:00 -
[55]
I must admit being real lucky in my first few weeks of entering the research lottery and getting a Tech2 BPO.
But I must admit it would really **** me off no end to have been working as a scientist for months with it being my only character and getting sweet FA.
I agree Science does need real loving and soon.....
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Trader Klyde
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Posted - 2005.06.20 15:06:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Discorporation
Edited by: Discorporation on 20/06/2005 14:25:19
"Hey man,
Our research is going great! We've discovered an entirely different way to link the ([technobabble1]) to ([technobabble2]) via the ([technobabble3]).
You know what would help immensely?
Ive heard of a archeological site somewhere in ([Constellation X]). Now, that's nothing special, we don't think they'll find anything worthwhile, but the archeologists are rumoured to use an experimental fusion cutter to seperate their asteroids. If you could confiscate it and deliver it to our labs, perhaps we can incorporate it into the designs we're working on."
Heh, I like that idea! Missions along those lines would enhance the "Science" profession IMO.
Even missions that required a list of items such as T-2 components with a guaranteed result such as a T-2 BPc with limited runs, etc. Kinda like some of the current agent offers on standard mission agents.
________________________________________________
From deep in space where nobody hears my screams...
Sometimes in fear, sometimes in anger, mostly just my singing style. |
zcinner
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Posted - 2005.06.21 11:31:00 -
[57]
intresseklubben antecknar
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Fivor
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Posted - 2005.06.21 11:59:00 -
[58]
The lottery is a good way of giving some decent rewards to someone who cannot power game -
/me is a Science Alt trained especially for research, though I have only 2 areas of research - no need to train the others up - RPM only @ 4 - it is quicker to train another alt then it is to get RPM5
I do other things - no need to just be a scientist - true my gunnery is pretty crap but give me time and I'll be fine.
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Rutherford
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Posted - 2005.06.21 12:03:00 -
[59]
Since you think the science guy is a waste, can I have him? I will give you a BS character I do not use in return.
Originally by: Aelius
Edited by: Aelius on 19/06/2005 19:06:07
This char has 7.5M skill points in science and every time i think about the time i took to gather them makes me wana cry
Some people have the same amount in gunnery for example and at least they can see the profit of them. They hit better, make more damage etc.
Why the hell did i thought a scientist would be the profession of the future and trained this:
Advanced Project Management LV5
CSE LV5
Hydromagnetic Physics LV5
Electromagnetic Physics LV5
etc.
500K RPs over 6 agents and the only revenue i have from science is the Raven BPCs i sell?
You talk about Cosmos and missile overhaul and changes to this and that.
HOW ABOUT SCIENCE
That is the most "crapy lowest given attention by CCP devs" profession EVER
I don't like to make any ultimatos but if i don't see improvements in the next 3 months (gives you enough time do FINALY do something) i'm going to cancel my subscription till you make some.
I already have all science skills anyone who is a scientist would wish for, so it doesn't matter to me if my char doesn't train while i have my 2 accounts canceled.
If more "wana be, but CCP doesn't let" science guys make the same i'm sure they will start giving it a little love.
(this post is not supposed to be a flame but once and a while one loses his patience)
Best regards
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.06.21 15:45:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 21/06/2005 15:47:20
RESEARCH SUCKS.
How much complaining was heard from the fighting folks when CCP decided to 'randomize' ECM/ECCM, and scrambling, and webbing?
I think the folks before me saw the flaw in unlimited run BPC, so they invented the BPC/BPO system. But they just moved the target.
Eliminate the monopolies, Kill unlimited T2 BPO. T2 BPO should be copy limited. (each copy damages T2 bpo based on players skills. No new skills!)
Advantages;
You can feed many more T2 BPO into the lottery.
Science produces more results.
Large isk corps/alliances can still buy up the T2 BPOs, but they dont get permanent advantage spoiling the chances of new players.
T2 BPOs will never run out.
Personally the highest suckage was training for an agent that could produce T2 Gyrostabilizer, and having it go to someone else while agent's new list is T2 mining crystals...
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2005.06.23 13:49:00 -
[61]
This is one damn fine idea
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.23 13:54:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
You can feed many more T2 BPO into the lottery.
T2 BPOs will never run out.
How are those two advantages?
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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