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Tarm	Posted - 2005.06.20 15:40:00 - [1] I've been patrolling these forums for quite a while now and I find myself constantly asking myself the following question: Why play this game without conflict? Players complain almost hourly about the destruction of property or assets; "ganked" while insert industrial profession here. I can understand why losing a ship and/or goods would be upsetting, but most of the threads that relate to this type of topic stem from one key concept: lots of players strive to avoid conflict. In an attempt to avoid sounding redundant (too late!) I'll try and keep this brief. Why play simply to watch your wallet ever increase? I have heard of players that own ships that they fly regularly that they've had for longer than a year. I count myself lucky if I can keep any of my ships for longer than a month. If you hardly lose anything, what do you try and achieve? Treat this post as an inquiry into your gaming style. I am truly curious as to what the community's aspirations are in this game. Do you play to increase your ISK? Do you play to dominate a system/constellation/region? Do you play to collect things? Do you play for the social aspects? Not just how you play, but WHY you play. I play to test my wits against my opponents and best them in combat. You? -------------------
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.06.20 15:51:00 - [2] Agreed, although it seems these days combat is secondary. If you can somehow outmaneouver your opponent and force them to engage that can be a victory.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.06.20 15:51:00 - [3] My wallet only grows when I want something bigger and badder or some other toy to fight with and eventually get blown up.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:09:00 - [4] I play to have fun. Interaction with my corpmates (especially on TS) is where the fun is for me, no matter what we are doing. My wallet has never crossed the 100 mill barrier (been playing since beta). So I guess ISK aquisition is not where it's at for me. I'm a part time player due to RL circumstances, so I know I will never have the time to be the "best" at anything in EVE, I'm far from a power gamer. And I'm totally fine with that. I've tried just about everything in this game except high lvl agent missions & rat hunting, as those are like playing a single player game... I guess the drive for me to stay with EVE is my corpmates... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:16:00 - [5] I enjoy the immersion in the game itself, the atmosphere of the setting. I like doing things with those in my corporation, and trying out the different aspects of the game. I have ships that I've bought over a year ago, they're ones that I use for specific purposes in empire. I still, to date, have never lost a BS but I tend to use it for agent missions not for PVP (I love it too much to lose it). But that being said I myself personally have a lot more fun PVPing in frigates. The money facter is part of that, but mostly it's just a lot more fun moving faster. It's the Descent: Freespace effect of being like an ant amongst elephants. If I'm doing something else, like working on a website or something, I'll usually be mining. That way my downtime is productive, isk wise. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:29:00 - [6] In this game there is more than one type of PvP heres a list stars by the most common industrialists choice. Ship Verses Ship combat Trader Verses Trader market combat Trader combat is not all about the money its about owning the markets. For me i love controlling my local market if i wanted to i can raise average prices and if i wnated to lower them if i see someone trying to establish himself in my area i kill him by buying all local stock of that product and selling at a much lower price than he is there fore he doesant selll his product i do. There are several methods of winning on the markets and i have lots of tactics i personally love but i wont reveil them here . End result is im a billionair and i virtually controll my local market. Eve is more than a combat sim and combat is not the only way to have fun in this wonderful persistant and versitile world of eve that allows you to succeed and ahve fun anyway YOU want well done ccp
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:35:00 - [7] I shun conflict with people I don't respect, why would I want to participate in making their gaming experience joyful? Hey, there's a character counter on posts, does this mean Jade is allowed again? Convert Stations
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:37:00 - [8] I thought of making this post a few times myself Tarm, good one I'm also very curious to the reasons behind industrial style gameplay from a psychological perspective. Combat is an easy one where the primal instincts for competition and hunting come into the fold With competition from fellow corp mates and rivalries with enemies, combat in EVE and gaming in general is expected. Pure industry with no combat relations is more complex and less black and white compared to combat. Rivalry and dominance comes into play in the building and selling of ships/bpcs. Cornering the market and making ISK which is essentially a trophy of victory for ongoing success. Those auctions where industry elites bid on multi-billion isk BPO's is combat transformed into a completely different form yet still based on the same basic psyhological principles. I believe that psychological difficulties in real life also affect a great number of players where insecurity and doubt are solved by the collection of in game items and ISK. Respect could also be gained in game which could not be obtained in real life. This is a much more complex issue so i'll stop right here ________________________________________________________
OFFT	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:37:00 - [9] I play for short and long term targets. I dont play for isk as such unless its needed. I play in the hope one day Hi Sec status means something. That one day a 10.0 with an agent and corp gets some real recognition. Mostly I play to collect ships and learn to fly them all. I like to help at random and play solo within a group of like minded people. True its a Multiplayer game...so far I have been a solo player working with a loose team of connections and players. We all benefit from time to time. I played for a Navy Raven and got bored after 500k lp and cashed in. I went to get another 10.0 with another corp. I play EVE cos its there....but it changes and can change dramatically enough to set me back a bit. I adapt and overcome ...maybe that why I play OFFT FORM LIFE :SIMPLE IN A COMPLICATED WAY
spiritfa11	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:40:00 - [10] I agree, combat is the only thing that keeps me interested in the game. Every other profession that Ive tried I just feel that I am amassing assets to no real point in purpose. At least in combat Ive always got a goal to work towards trying to be the best pilot in a certain area. Every combat situation is a little different and like you said we train and buy ships and modules to try and outwit our opponents. ---------------------

Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:42:00 - [11] Edited by: Bhaal on 20/06/2005 16:42:57 Quote: I believe that psychological difficulties in real life also affect a great number of players where insecurity and doubt are solved by the collection of in game items and ISK. Respect could also be gained in game which could not be obtained in real life. This is a much more complex issue so i'll stop right here The same can be said about combat PVP'ers having RL psychological difficulties, and that standing over their victims stroking their e-peen is a substitute for victories they cannot attain in RL... That type of arguement can go both ways... I'll stop right here as well ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Tarm	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 20/06/2005 16:42:57 The same can be said about combat PVP'ers having RL psychological difficulties, and that standing over their victims stroking their e-peen is a substitute for victories they cannot attain in RL... That type of arguement can go both ways... I'll stop right here as well I don't think he meant that as an insult. His point is valid. I am not a very confrontational person, but I love killing me some freedom fighters in-game. Also, recognition, respect, and achievement is a good motivation for some, including myself. -------------------
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:53:00 - [13] also when the markets are at a slow period i get out one of my disposable apocs and ahve some fun poding all i can in 0.0 or at a gate camp in low sec Suffice to say i have alot of fun doing both types of pvp and as i do both at different times i never get tired of eve my next goal is to corner the black market so im currently looking into it so if you want drugs im your dealer
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:55:00 - [14] Edited by: Meridius on 20/06/2005 16:55:34 Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 20/06/2005 16:42:57 Quote: I believe that psychological difficulties in real life also affect a great number of players where insecurity and doubt are solved by the collection of in game items and ISK. Respect could also be gained in game which could not be obtained in real life. This is a much more complex issue so i'll stop right here The same can be said about combat PVP'ers having RL psychological difficulties, and that standing over their victims stroking their e-peen is a substitute for victories they cannot attain in RL... That type of arguement can go both ways... I'll stop right here as well My comment was directed at all people playing eve, not just industry Perhaps i should go on about how industrialists avoid combat. There has to be something said about someone who avoids the most basic primal behaviours in favour of safety and little risk... ________________________________________________________
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.20 16:56:00 - [15] Quote: I don't think he meant that as an insult. His point is valid. So is mine, you can't play one half of the psych card and not the other... That's what I meant... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
BigBadToughGuy	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:00:00 - [16] I've been at it for a few years now and in that time I have done just about everything in Eve. Started out with a little Ibis thinking this is great, took me almost two weeks to buy my first Merlin (money didn't come so easily then). Maxed out the mining and hauling skills, moved into production and research, refining and such. Learned to fly every ship, then began my dive into learning how to fight. The beauty of Eve is there is something for everyone and individual game styles. R/L keeps me from being able to spend as much time as I used to playing, so I log in and run a couple of missions. Put the loot on the market and make some money. My goal is to learn as many skills as I can and save enough to buy one of the massive ships coming out before too long. Great topic by the way
Miri Tirzan	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:01:00 - [17] Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 20/06/2005 17:02:30 Originally by: Tarm I've been patrolling these forums for quite a while now and I find myself constantly asking myself the following question: Why play this game without conflict? Players complain almost hourly about the destruction of property or assets; "ganked" while insert industrial profession here. I can understand why losing a ship and/or goods would be upsetting, but most of the threads that relate to this type of topic stem from one key concept: lots of players strive to avoid conflict. In an attempt to avoid sounding redundant (too late!) I'll try and keep this brief. Why play simply to watch your wallet ever increase? I have heard of players that own ships that they fly regularly that they've had for longer than a year. I count myself lucky if I can keep any of my ships for longer than a month. If you hardly lose anything, what do you try and achieve? Treat this post as an inquiry into your gaming style. I am truly curious as to what the community's aspirations are in this game. Do you play to increase your ISK? Do you play to dominate a system/constellation/region? Do you play to collect things? Do you play for the social aspects? Not just how you play, but WHY you play. I play to test my wits against my opponents and best them in combat. You? I think you miss the point of PvP. When you think of PvP all you see is gun and missiles. You dont see the joy that some of us have in the total economic anniliation of others. The warm glow we feel in the the economic destruction of our foes! Riding roughshod over the broken remains of thier once proud economic corpes. Your goal is to destroy a player, for some of us the goal is the feasting on the remains of hundreds while they are yet a live. A quick death is fleeting while a long slow economic wasting can be savoried. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
mahhy	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Bhaal EVE enables those who can't handle real life conflict, to enact it out over the pixels on the screen... Must be amateur psychologist hour Seriously, thinking that those who fight, gank, whatever in Eve are somehow limited in their RL conflict abilities is incredibly silly. I would instead say the people who enjoy combat in Eve enjoy it simply because its a more enjoyable form of computer game. Shooting NPC AI in something like Half Life is fun, but it doesn't hold a candle next to combating a real person in a game. And thats all it is, a game. Its not a sign of someones psychological well being or lack thereof.
Sathanis LeFleur	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:10:00 - [19] It's an interesting thought.. I play for the rich graphics.. great ship models.. interation with my corpies etc. and I even play for the continued aggrivation, its a testament to the game that people play through continued daft decisions and outright griefing.... and NO I'm not whining... Eve is "da ****znit".. and has so much more potential.. another reason to keep "in the game" to see if it continues to evolve or decay.. I for one am hoping for continued positive evolution..
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:15:00 - [20] Quote: And thats all it is, a game. Its not a sign of someones psychological well being or lack thereof. And I did not start that line of thinking... I think the original poster is trying to "expose" industrialist' in some fashion (as a subordinate form of MMO player), asking them to explain themselves. You don't combat PVP? How odd, plz explain yourself, as you must not be a normal person... PPL just need to realize that most of the players in this game will avoid combat PVP whenever possible unless they are specifically out looking for it. You just simply have to deal with it, it's part of the game. Trying to force them out of their element & ridicule them on the forums is not going to change the way they play the game... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"

Tarm	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:18:00 - [21] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: And thats all it is, a game. Its not a sign of someones psychological well being or lack thereof. And I did not start that line of thinking... I think the original poster is trying to "expose" industrialist' in some fashion (as a subordinate form of MMO player), asking them to explain themselves. You don't combat PVP? How odd, plz explain yourself, as you must not be a normal person... PPL just need to realize that most of the players in this game will avoid combat PVP whenever possible unless they are specifically out looking for it. You just simply have to deal with it, it's part of the game. Trying to force them out of their element & ridicule them on the forums is not going to change the way they play the game... I have 1.6m skillpoints in Industry and 1.2m in Science. I regularly produce 2 different tech 2 ships. I also get killmails on a regular basis. I was curious, please don't assume I'm an ass. -------------------
Narine	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:19:00 - [22] I find the excitement behind the danger of losing my ship a motivation. I used to play WoW but if i died there it didnt affect me in anyway. But in Eve you feel it BAD! And that makes it exciting! ______________________________________________ "I¦m not even supposed to be here!", Dante.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Tarm Originally by: Bhaal Quote: And thats all it is, a game. Its not a sign of someones psychological well being or lack thereof. And I did not start that line of thinking... I think the original poster is trying to "expose" industrialist' in some fashion (as a subordinate form of MMO player), asking them to explain themselves. You don't combat PVP? How odd, plz explain yourself, as you must not be a normal person... PPL just need to realize that most of the players in this game will avoid combat PVP whenever possible unless they are specifically out looking for it. You just simply have to deal with it, it's part of the game. Trying to force them out of their element & ridicule them on the forums is not going to change the way they play the game... I have 1.6m skillpoints in Industry and 1.2m in Science. I regularly produce 2 different tech 2 ships. I also get killmails on a regular basis. I was curious, please don't assume I'm an ass. My apologies, but... Quote: I've been patrolling these forums for quite a while now and I find myself constantly asking myself the following question: Why play this game without conflict? You seem to be bothered by the fact that some do like to play without conflict. If you're constantly asking yourself, it seems to me you have some kind of problem with that... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: And thats all it is, a game. Its not a sign of someones psychological well being or lack thereof. And I did not start that line of thinking... I think the original poster is trying to "expose" industrialist' in some fashion (as a subordinate form of MMO player), asking them to explain themselves. You don't combat PVP? How odd, plz explain yourself, as you must not be a normal person... PPL just need to realize that most of the players in this game will avoid combat PVP whenever possible unless they are specifically out looking for it. You just simply have to deal with it, it's part of the game. Trying to force them out of their element & ridicule them on the forums is not going to change the way they play the game... You are just looking for something to object to. Don't be like a woman looking for deeper meanings when none were intended I enjoy PvP immensely. I also enjoy the satisfaction of flying around in something that I've built. Its pleasing to me to build and then use something. It means more to me knowing I worked for it and then crafted it myself. I'd look after a built frig more than I would a bought bs. Thats my motivation when I put on my indy hat.
Tarm	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:25:00 - [25] Originally by: Bhaal You seem to be bothered by the fact that some do like to play without conflict. If you're constantly asking yourself, it seems to me you have some kind of problem with that... I was curious as to why people play that don't want to involve themselves in combat with others, therefore I asked them about it. I was not condemning their gameplay, I wanted to know why they kept playing and they have responded in turn. In the end I just thought it would make for good conversation while being bored at work, which it has. -------------------
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:27:00 - [26] Quote: In the end I just thought it would make for good conversation while being bored at work, which it has. I see we have one thing in common... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Zdragva	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Tarm I've been patrolling these forums for quite a while now and I find myself constantly asking myself the following question: Why play this game without conflict? Players complain almost hourly about the destruction of property or assets; "ganked" while insert industrial profession here. I can understand why losing a ship and/or goods would be upsetting, but most of the threads that relate to this type of topic stem from one key concept: lots of players strive to avoid conflict. In an attempt to avoid sounding redundant (too late!) I'll try and keep this brief. Why play simply to watch your wallet ever increase? I have heard of players that own ships that they fly regularly that they've had for longer than a year. I count myself lucky if I can keep any of my ships for longer than a month. If you hardly lose anything, what do you try and achieve? Treat this post as an inquiry into your gaming style. I am truly curious as to what the community's aspirations are in this game. Do you play to increase your ISK? Do you play to dominate a system/constellation/region? Do you play to collect things? Do you play for the social aspects? Not just how you play, but WHY you play. I play to test my wits against my opponents and best them in combat. You? It is not until you have played Eve for some time that you realise just how narrow and limited the actual gameplay is. I know when I first heard about it, read about it, and even started playing I had no idea what awaited me, and had the notion that I would be playing some kind of space based future sim. I totally agree that if your not into combat then Eve offers very little. But until that realisation dawns on you it seems to offer so much more. I personally dont play Eve just to rack up more kill mails, or 'omgiwtfpnedyounoobzor' random people. About a year ago all the great alliances existed, maybe not at their peak, but as superpowers and powerful entities none the less. Eve was more a game of politics, empire bilding, and social creation that it was mindless violence and killboard expansion. It seems to me that with the death of these groups as entities with a vision other than holding resources to launch attacks from, we saw the death of possibility in Eve. Iv always prefered to fight for something, rather than just fight. Iv always considered killing as a means of creation, of construction, conflict because of ideals and goals, to be so much more entertaining and involving than just killing because its allowed. I do not play Eve because I feel a personal need to fight everyone. In a game thats geared towards simple competition for the sake of competition, there is no game. I started playing Eve because I wanted to play a part in a science fiction future existance, thats why I played Eve, not because I wanted to compare my manliness, or compete for competitions sake, with random people. Eve is supposed to be mankinds future in a remote galaxy, not a gladiatorial arena. Thats why I started playing. I dont play much now.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.20 17:52:00 - [28] Quote: It is not until you have played Eve for some time that you realise just how narrow and limited the actual gameplay is. So very true ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Imran	Posted - 2005.06.20 18:00:00 - [29] Corp chat drives me :} and the interaction with the other colorful personalities distinct to this game alone(Enemies and Friends), as sad as that sounds lately thats the only reason ive been logging on, PvP is just bland and boring now.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.20 18:13:00 - [30] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: And thats all it is, a game. Its not a sign of someones psychological well being or lack thereof. And I did not start that line of thinking... I think the original poster is trying to "expose" industrialist' in some fashion (as a subordinate form of MMO player), asking them to explain themselves. You don't combat PVP? How odd, plz explain yourself, as you must not be a normal person... PPL just need to realize that most of the players in this game will avoid combat PVP whenever possible unless they are specifically out looking for it. You just simply have to deal with it, it's part of the game. Trying to force them out of their element & ridicule them on the forums is not going to change the way they play the game... Tarm is just curious. My opinion is unbiased. I have 40k in industry but that doesn't mean i dislike industrialists. I have several friends who are deep in industry and have nothing to do with combat. I could care less. Industry is a vital part of driving combat. Tech 2 ships don't grow on trees It's a symbiotic relationship... Having a bias against industrialists would be ignorant and just plain stupid. Take it easy ________________________________________________________



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