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Dreez	Posted - 2005.06.22 22:37:00 - [1] Edited by: Dreez on 22/06/2005 22:39:02 The title say it all, how & what can we do to put the Blasterthron in the top of the foodchain when it comes to close range combat. I¦ve been back in EVE for jsut over a month and still see experienced pilots nameing the raven as the top-notch close range ship, when the Megathron with blasters were obviosly builrt to be just that. The description "No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters" says it all, and i know it says turrets. But even with the new changes to missiles which reduces their dmg with velocity, this wont help the megathron in a fight against a Raven still. One of the problems which CCP only made even worse is that the raven is a suprÚme shieldtank, and with the "nerf" of MWDs where they dont reduce shield anymore, only Cap - the raven gets another point on the megathron. As if the Mega didnt have enough cap-issues . Another thing thats been bothering me is that the raven is still aloved to direct 100% of its already strong cap to share tanking, while the already cap-weak Megathron has do split its cap between 3 areas. Firing, Tanking & Navigation. How to fix this ?. i dont know. Have Launchers require cap while active ?, vastly increase the dmg on blasters ? Im not much for calculations, but im sure that if someone would come up with some nice stats, it would proof that blasters needs some serious attention, since blasterthrons are currently not a viable option compared to the risk you take everytime you move out. The absolute weakest point of the blasterthrons is that they always needs optimal conditions to be effektive while the missileboat can operate under any. Also keep in mind (And i¦ve made this point before) that a blasterthron only has 1 free medslot, the rest are taken from MWD, Scram & Webb. Any Megapilot knows that a webb is required to get any good hits with blasters. The raven has their 6 Medslots, 1 for scram, no MWD or webb required, just lock ,scram and pound. If it were up to me, i¦d increase the dmg on Large blasters vastly, to match up with the torps. 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.06.22 22:50:00 - [2] How about no... Have you ever used a Tempest with Autocannons yet? They're by far pretty sick when it comes to close range combat. Due to the ammo capabilities, damage bonus and RoF as well. You got to ask yourself, what really breaks a tank. Well 2 things comes to mind A) Gunships damage Modded out B) Killing there cap. As a close range battleship you can do both of these and then some. Now with Smartbombs able to kill ballistics, it should be obvious that even if the raven does more close range damage than you can. That you still have the option to fit smartbombs to stop all damage from his end. You mention the new missile changes, which is going to increase the velocity of the missile. This also will play a part in how smartbombs destroys missiles. However, it is still a option being it will STILL cut the damage more than half even if ballistics make it past the smartbomb damage. So if you're having trouble beating a tank with yoursetup. Then you need to review your tactics and setup to better kill all tanks. Raven like you said doesn't have good cap, it should be a given that a Megatron with blasters/damage modded out and a couple of smartbombs should give you way better results and more damage output than a Raven. It's just a matter if you can compete with the Tempest/Autocannons :) Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.06.22 22:53:00 - [3] My megathron hasnt really had any problems with Ravens so far. I dont use an MWD and i have yet to ever run out of cap, i do of course always make sure i have a covert ops with me to provide a jump in point. [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Mac Knife	Posted - 2005.06.22 22:54:00 - [4] I have to disagree with you mate. A blasterthron fitted with tech II blasters and a moderate tank can take down a raven pretty easily. I tested this with a corp mate about 20mins ago, my thron vs firstly his 5 dmg mod raven then against his 5 pdu II tanked raven and i won both times, it could've gone either way but the thron's cap held with 800's. With good skills a thron pilot should almost always beat down a raven pilot. Just get the skill to use 10 drones, tech II guns and actually know how to use your ship. The damage of blasters is fine, train the skills up and you will have a deadly gun. The thron is a pretty skill intensive ship, while the raven is well...any man and his dog can fly one.
Lanu	Posted - 2005.06.22 23:02:00 - [5] Originally by: Mac Knife I have to disagree with you mate. A blasterthron fitted with tech II blasters and a moderate tank can take down a raven pretty easily. I tested this with a corp mate about 20mins ago, my thron vs firstly his 5 dmg mod raven then against his 5 pdu II tanked raven and i won both times, it could've gone either way but the thron's cap held with 800's. With good skills a thron pilot should almost always beat down a raven pilot. Just get the skill to use 10 drones, tech II guns and actually know how to use your ship. The damage of blasters is fine, train the skills up and you will have a deadly gun. The thron is a pretty skill intensive ship, while the raven is well...any man and his dog can fly one. Had you a mwd/ab fitted on that setup you used to "kill" your corp mate with? In other words was it a real combat setup or just a mega setup made to kill a raven? boo "You are most like the Cat, lazy and quiet. You aren't very exciting yet everyone notices your presence."
Branmuffin	Posted - 2005.06.22 23:13:00 - [6] Change the tracking bonus to a Large turret target resolution bonus. That would make the Mega just a wee bit more devastating without being ubar. Either that or give us a ROF bonus and release a 8 turret rier 2 BS for Gallente with an damage and turret resolution bonus.
Dreez	Posted - 2005.06.22 23:15:00 - [7] Originally by: Mac Knife I have to disagree with you mate. A blasterthron fitted with tech II blasters and a moderate tank can take down a raven pretty easily. A Raven with t2 Launchers ?, doubt it. 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
Dreez	Posted - 2005.06.22 23:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri How about no... Have you ever used a Tempest with Autocannons yet? They're by far pretty sick when it comes to close range combat. Due to the ammo capabilities, It's just a matter if you can compete with the Tempest/Autocannons :) Thx for proving my point that Blasters needs attention since they are suppose to be the most destructive Turrets 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
Nanus Parkite	Posted - 2005.06.23 00:36:00 - [9] Do the numbers, autocannons don't come close to doing the damage of blasters even with 2 damage bonus'. Their only advantages are extremely low cap use and slightly longer range.
Stormfront	Posted - 2005.06.23 00:45:00 - [10] The regular close range dual 650 autocannon tempest with full tank and cap boosters will last longer against a Raven than a mega.

mavskji	Posted - 2005.06.23 01:11:00 - [11] Doesnt a gankageddon with multifreqs do more damage than a blasterthron with AM and have about twice the range (not sure of range since pulse nerf)? Maybe cap boosters could have there volume halved, that would help the megas cap, but I dont know how that would affect other ships that use them. I do think the blasterthron needs tweaking, from a practical stand point it seems pretty pointless, a gankathron can do almost as much damage sitting at 10-70km. The only reason to use a blasterthron is fun. Admittedly thats a big enough reason for me, but it just isnt THE king of close range combat it was supposed to be. I will continue to use my megathron whether they change it or not simply because it is the coolest ship in the game, I hope you will too Dreez.
slip66	Posted - 2005.06.23 01:15:00 - [12] I dunno dreez I think your holding onto the solo bs getting kills like it used to be. It's not as realistic a mission as it used to be. The main gimp to the blasters is having to web,scramble & get into optimal. You sacrifice too much to accomplish all this. Seems like most bs setups these days are more defined. dmg style sniping or close range , ravens going anti frig for long range torps up close. I guaranty if you drop the scrmabler and web you will peel through a ravens tank. Having cap to run a better tank, your guns longer and mwd especially with the cap booster. Most everyone is relying on gang mates in frigs to perform the tackling and get you into position. 1v1s are allways a crap shoot. There cant be to many setups that someone feels confident in that has both a web & warp scrambler & mwd. You never see gankageddons with scramblers webs & mwd. not what you wanted to hear sorry. like to hear what blaster pilots are doing.
slip66	Posted - 2005.06.23 01:19:00 - [13] Edited by: slip66 on 23/06/2005 01:19:34 Originally by: mavskji Doesnt a gankageddon with multifreqs do more damage than a blasterthron with AM and have about twice the range (not sure of range since pulse nerf)? Maybe cap boosters could have there volume halved, that would help the megas cap, but I dont know how that would affect other ships that use them. I do think the blasterthron needs tweaking, from a practical stand point it seems pretty pointless, a gankathron can do almost as much damage sitting at 10-70km. The only reason to use a blasterthron is fun. Admittedly thats a big enough reason for me, but it just isnt THE king of close range combat it was supposed to be. I will continue to use my megathron whether they change it or not simply because it is the coolest ship in the game, I hope you will too Dreez. Someone posted the numbers after the nerf. I think the blaster is beating it but just barely. Those gankageddons are only doing 1 mission, damage. They are doing it damn good. Has anyone in a blaster setup for straight dmg fought a geddon? minus the scrmabler & web.
Sam Trip	Posted - 2005.06.23 01:33:00 - [14] I still feel that the megathron is kinda underpowered I actually feel blasters in total have it pretty crap off still. Consider that the must have conditions of using blasters...>10km and thats about it. To acheive that when the arena is dominated by snipers everywhere is practically impossible. Now ok you say projectiles have it worse? Well when you do include that low cap power and slightly longer range...those are pretty damn important in combat considering that the EW propulsion jamming barrier is at extreme effect >7.5km where a tempest can stay out of but a mega HAS to be in. This isn't just the mega, practically all gallente blasterboats have it just as bad and the only thing preventing some ships from becomin fodder is a good tank which again the amarr can outdo by far. Is it me or do I just feel the need for gallente to get some sort of boost. Reduced sig radius is my new crazy idea. Due to ship design gallente have lower sigs for some reason. If not that boost the speed! Blasterthron is still an extremely specialised scenario ship and is VERY vulnerable to the usual scenarios of gate ganks and fleet ops. I dont have gripes about the other races ships but the gallente are still so shafted in comparison...maybe the minmatar too cos of the typhoon. IMO fire up the typhoon and dominix and make them combat viable (as in seriously combat viable like the gankageddie and scorp) Up to me? Drop the sig radius of about 90% of gallente ships by 20%-30% If your gonna specialise the way the blasterthron fights you might as well allow it to use that advantage. Low sig rad means it can actually stealth up to that far away target easier and actually get to it
Luc Boye	Posted - 2005.06.23 01:35:00 - [15] megathrons with t2 blasters are about as good now as they can be. Ravens on the other hand are looking forward to t2 missile launchers + skills. Now before you say "missiles are getting nerfed" they are not, possibly for antifrig, but bs vs bs they are getting even better. Also the sig radius will come into play with missiles meaning the sucker megathron mwding towards the raven will get even more pummeled then usual. But who cares, I don't even play the game anymore, just train skills. -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Lorth	Posted - 2005.06.23 01:39:00 - [16] I have fought a straight up damage geddon, with a straight up damage mega. If you land under 5km (maybe a little more) then you golden. But considering you'll almost never have the happen in a real world situation, one can see why the mega is going to loss 90% of the fights that occur like this. Which is why the blasterthron isn't a really good set up now a days. Its simply out classed by the geddon, and the apoc, and the tempest, in close range fighting. You fit for damage, your still beat by the geddon. Fit for tanking, and the apoc still out tankes you, and does very simular damge. Now considering the trouble to get a BS with in 5km, why would you go through all of that, when other ships can do the same thing from greater ranges. They need no cap boosters, they can run thier set up forever. They don't set them selves up for insta raven pwnage. You warp to a gate/belt/station at 15 km, and you good to go. No MWD and stupid sig radius, or cap penelty. Now think of this. Torpedos, travell about 3-4X times faster then a megathron. Raven pilots complain about damage lag (rightfully so) but no one things of the lumbering megathron that has to do more or less the same thing.
Axel	Posted - 2005.06.23 06:40:00 - [17] I think the blasterthron is pretty much outdated. It's low combat range makes it difficult to be usefull in group fights, because u can't do damage travelling between targets if they are spread out. And ofcourse the time needed to approach a target in the first place is agony. Ofcourse u can get good warp in points from a cover ops etc etc. Geddons and tempest, or even a dominix with dual250's with dmg mods will all work better. they can start shooting instandly due to better optimal or high accuracy fall-off. I miss my old megathron setup and the crazy cpu requirements for the t2 guns makes me cry. whats the use for a blasterthron in a gank era with dmg mods only. Quick lock and instand damage is what counts these days. Fights are getting shorter and shorter in duration. Damage output for all gets increased and increased again and again. T2 launchers and T2 ammo is next. I am totally not enjoying PVP in eve anymore. Movies
Noriath	Posted - 2005.06.23 06:52:00 - [18] Close range combat has to be in the foodchain before anything can be on top of it...
Typherin laidai	Posted - 2005.06.23 06:53:00 - [19] Originally by: slip66 Edited by: slip66 on 23/06/2005 01:19:34 Originally by: mavskji Doesnt a gankageddon with multifreqs do more damage than a blasterthron with AM and have about twice the range (not sure of range since pulse nerf)? Maybe cap boosters could have there volume halved, that would help the megas cap, but I dont know how that would affect other ships that use them. I do think the blasterthron needs tweaking, from a practical stand point it seems pretty pointless, a gankathron can do almost as much damage sitting at 10-70km. The only reason to use a blasterthron is fun. Admittedly thats a big enough reason for me, but it just isnt THE king of close range combat it was supposed to be. I will continue to use my megathron whether they change it or not simply because it is the coolest ship in the game, I hope you will too Dreez. Someone posted the numbers after the nerf. I think the blaster is beating it but just barely. Those gankageddons are only doing 1 mission, damage. They are doing it damn good. Has anyone in a blaster setup for straight dmg fought a geddon? minus the scrmabler & web. The Geddon has the higher DoT .. just... but the Mega actually has more Hp than the geddon does... so meh as Lorth said depends on starting range whether your going to win or not... Originally by: Eris Discordia gives Typherin some loving
Noriath	Posted - 2005.06.23 06:55:00 - [20] The problem here is that starting range is usually long. And besides, eve PvP sucks anyways because once you warp in all the movement that will still possibly help you is a warp align.

Lorth	Posted - 2005.06.23 07:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Typherin laidai The Geddon has the higher DoT .. just... but the Mega actually has more Hp than the geddon does... so meh as Lorth said depends on starting range whether your going to win or not... Ya but that distance is so small its really only achieveble with a covert opps. Not to mention if you account for sensor boosters, and the like, it doesn't fair well for the blasterthron. And all a geddon has to do is fit a web, and your not going to win any engagement which doesn't start with warping to a covert opps. The biggest problem with flying a blasterthron, is you make a lot of sacrifices, and do a lot of work to close the distance. And at the end of the day, in actuallity, other ships do the job much better, for a faction of the cost, and none of the work. Don't get me wrong I love(d) the blaterthron. I have one in yulai costing a couple hundred million just in fitting. But now it just sits there and frankly does nothing, because I have other ways to do the same job, much better, and with cheaper fittings. It really isn't a issue of balencing either (though I do think the mega has serious CPU problems.) Its more a matter of tactics. Damage mods, sensor boosts, etc, are all much more relevent to the battle then any thing else now. Many BS vs BS fights are over before a blasterthron could cover the distance seperating the two oppenents. I want to fly a blaster ship, thats why the only BS I can fly decently are gallente. But I still think that doing everything it takes to make a good blasterthron, and still coming out behind, isn't a smart plan.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.06.23 09:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Typherin laidai The Geddon has the higher DoT .. just... but the Mega actually has more Hp than the geddon does... so meh as Lorth said depends on starting range whether your going to win or not... Think this needs to be qualified a bit... The T2 MP Arma will only outdamage a T2 Neutron Mega at BS level 5. All other skills equal, max dmg mods etc etc, pure gank fittings basically. The difference in dmg output between them is also EXTREMELY small at BS 5. Just thought I'd clear that up
TrakMulat	Posted - 2005.06.23 10:29:00 - [23] I have an idea. What about T2 drones specialized for Megathron? No damage but with a webber and a disruptor. Maybe even a target painter. So no need to use 2 med slots for them.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.06.23 10:39:00 - [24] Edited by: LUKEC on 23/06/2005 10:40:05 Right now, blasterthrons have nothing to do in eve. Maybe in some empire war vs. some miners... Why: 1. geddon does more dmg at bigger range and can be aligned to warp out. Which is far better than tryin to orbit something and hoping that you don't get painted... 2. Raven will easily tank megathron if it has tank and outdmg it at same time. Gankathrons... maybe if you land close and are lucky. 3. It is easier to fit on 7x 425mm t2 and warp at 40km. At that range you can kill pretty much anything. And if you came back to eve, you will notice that almost every ship you meet has 2WCS. So...
GREATONE	Posted - 2005.06.23 11:27:00 - [25] I have np with raven 1v1 not anymore the mega is skill hungry when you got the skils the tide turns :)
F4ze	Posted - 2005.06.23 11:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Nanus Parkite Do the numbers, autocannons don't come close to doing the damage of blasters even with 2 damage bonus'. Their only advantages are extremely low cap use and slightly longer range. This is how the different guns compare in damage per second with maxed skills on the most damaging ships (blasters on thron, pulses on geddon, AC's on tempest): Neutron Blaster II > 800mm II > Ion Blaster II > Pulse II > Dual 650mm II > Electron Blaster II > Dual 425mm II > Dual Pulse II
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.06.23 11:44:00 - [27] Originally by: F4ze This is how the different guns compare in damage per second with maxed skills on the most damaging ships (blasters on thron, pulses on geddon, AC's on tempest): Neutron Blaster II > 800mm II > Ion Blaster II > Pulse II > Dual 650mm II > Electron Blaster II > Dual 425mm II > Dual Pulse II Nope, Geddon with pulses II and maxed skills does most dmg.
siim	Posted - 2005.06.23 11:46:00 - [28] Blasterthron doesn't have big problems killing a raven you just need skills and knowing how to fit your ship
F4ze	Posted - 2005.06.23 11:54:00 - [29] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: F4ze This is how the different guns compare in damage per second with maxed skills on the most damaging ships (blasters on thron, pulses on geddon, AC's on tempest): Neutron Blaster II > 800mm II > Ion Blaster II > Pulse II > Dual 650mm II > Electron Blaster II > Dual 425mm II > Dual Pulse II Nope, Geddon with pulses II and maxed skills does most dmg. Pulse II on a geddon: 3.6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.08 * 48 / 7.875 * 0.9 * 0.8 * 0.75 = 63.08 dps Neutron II on a thron: 4.2 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.08 * 1.25 * 48 / 7.88 * 0.9 * 0.8 = 68.96 dps 800mm II on a tempest: 2.31 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.08 * 1.25 * 44 / 5.625 * 0.9 * 0.8 * 0.75 = 64.94 dps Explanation of the numbers: 1.25 = turret skill at lvl5 1.15 = surgical at lvl5 1.08 = specialization at lvl4 (pretty reasonable imo) 1.25 = ship damage bonus in case of thron and tempest 0.9 = gunnery at lvl5 0.8 = rapid firing at lvl5 0.75 = ship ROF bonus in case of geddon and tempest
Amthrianius	Posted - 2005.06.23 11:56:00 - [30] ISK vs DOT = Armageddon winnah :\| ---------------



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