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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
301
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Posted - 2013.01.13 11:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi
I read a claim, somewhere, that the 30 billion ISK stolen by the Guiding Hand Social Club, back in 2005, was the equivalent of 16.5 thousand dollars.
That sounds quite wrong. But how wrong is it actually? How much was ISK worth, in terms of dollars, back in 2005? I'm sure it was a lot more than now, but was ISK once so scarce as to make the 1.8 million ISK-per-dollar claim true?
As best I can calculate it, at places like Shattered Crystal you pay $35 and get 2xPLEX, which sells for something like 1.1 bilion ISK. Unless I've made a mistake, that comes to 31 million ISK-per-dollar.
So were ISK worth 17 times as much back in 2005 as they are now, here in early 2013?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3662
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Posted - 2013.01.13 12:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Consider how back then, getting and fitting a battleship was an achievement at least like today it'd be to get and fit (and fill) 2-3 carriers. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
143
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Posted - 2013.01.13 12:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Salpad wrote:I read a claim, somewhere, that the 30 billion ISK stolen by the Guiding Hand Social Club, back in 2005, was the equivalent of 16.5 thousand dollars I have massive respect for what GHSC achieved there. Isk was worth a whole lot more back then, both in game and out of game.
However, the media's real world value claims for all the famous EVE scams have always been exaggerated for the sake of a good story.
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
757
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Posted - 2013.01.13 12:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
I remember around 2005 having 1B was quite something.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
422
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Posted - 2013.01.13 12:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
The past prices were largely based on illegal RMT exchange rates and while a little high were at the right order of magnitude.
PLEX undermined that demand and crack downs have increased their costs to produce the current PLEX-ISK conversion rates. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
301
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Posted - 2013.01.13 13:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
So basically it would be a mistake, if I called bollocks on ISK being worth 17 times more back in 2005 than they are now?
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
176
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Posted - 2013.01.13 17:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
If you want a more accurate conversion, a month of gametime when I started (which was actually early 2006, but we're talking about "close enough" here) cost 90m isk. PLEX didn't exist of course but there were legit mechanisms to sell gametime.
So 30 billion isk would have bought ~333 months of gametime. At $15/mo, you get a value of more like $5000. The same amount of isk gets you 73 PLEX today, which is $795 worth of gametime. Note: I know PLEX cost $20 to buy, but to the typical user they're just a month of gametime, which is $15, so it seems most accurate to tally them that way for this sort of comparison. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Fractal Muse
Dead's Prostitutes Test Friends Please Ignore
198
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Posted - 2013.01.13 17:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Salpad wrote:So basically it would be a mistake, if I called bollocks on ISK being worth 17 times more back in 2005 than they are now?
PLEX was introduced in 2008. So, in 2005 any valuation of ISK to real money was linked, as was noted, to RMT at that time. It could be that the average conversion of ISK to dollars was that high at that time.
There was a time when a PLEX went for as low as ~200 million ISK during the initial price fluxations when it was introduced.
If a PLEX was worth ~200 million ISK then 30 billion was worth ~$2,250 USD. But, that was in 2008.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
302
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Posted - 2013.01.13 17:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote:Salpad wrote:So basically it would be a mistake, if I called bollocks on ISK being worth 17 times more back in 2005 than they are now?
PLEX was introduced in 2008. So, in 2005 any valuation of ISK to real money was linked, as was noted, to RMT at that time. It could be that the average conversion of ISK to dollars was that high at that time.
ETC could be bought and sold legally in 2007, and in 2008 up until PLEX was introduced. It wasn't limited to RMT before PLEX.
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
178
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Posted - 2013.01.13 18:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Fractal Muse wrote:Salpad wrote:So basically it would be a mistake, if I called bollocks on ISK being worth 17 times more back in 2005 than they are now?
PLEX was introduced in 2008. So, in 2005 any valuation of ISK to real money was linked, as was noted, to RMT at that time. It could be that the average conversion of ISK to dollars was that high at that time. ETC could be bought and sold legally in 2007, and in 2008 up until PLEX was introduced. It wasn't limited to RMT before PLEX.
They could be legally bought and sold earlier than that. What changed in 2007 was that CCP added and mandated the use of the secure transfer system. Prior to that it was all on the honor system, so despite it being against the rules, people would scam with them (eg sell the same code to multiple people or whatever). This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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fugazii
Slippery Penguin
16
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Posted - 2013.01.13 18:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
I was actually pretty heavily involved in WoW botting and RMT scene at the time. Dealing with Chinese sites on a regular basis I saw prices on isk often. 180$/b is too high, those are 04' prices on isk, but 100-120$ range would of been common at the time.
Even once the introduction of the GTC trade prices on illegal isk was still very high simply due to the fact that GTCs fetched very little isk. For example here's my GTC resale thread from 06' listing 100day gtcs for 395m. If I remember correctly I generally sold 30days under 150. http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=418479 |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
19
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Posted - 2013.01.13 19:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Isk in eve has no dollar value. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
178
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Posted - 2013.01.13 19:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Alex Grison wrote:Isk in eve has no dollar value.
Nonsense. If I spend isk to buy a PLEX, I'm saving myself $15. That's a very real dollar value - I can spend the $15 on lunch or something instead. Present your argument as "Any isk above and beyond what is required to pay ones subscription fee has no legitimate/EULA-approved dollar value" and it'd be more accurate. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
196
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Posted - 2013.01.14 09:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Prices were higher in 2005 for most goods than they were in 2012. (source: official dev blog).
Higher prices : money is worth less.
(People have very short memories, while prices have been rising for the last year or two, for most of the game's history they have been falling). |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3662
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Posted - 2013.01.14 10:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Anya Ohaya wrote:Prices were higher in 2005 for most goods than they were in 2012. (source: official dev blog). Higher prices : money is worth less. (People have very short memories, while prices have been rising for the last year or two, for most of the game's history they have been falling). The Plex market is something else again. You can't put a real world dollar value on ISK since most of us can't convert our billions directly into dollars. The rise in plex prices probably has more to do with a fall in plex supply than anything else.
That dev blog contained a lot of fluff.
We had hugely rampant botting and RMT skewing the economy, some items were hugely depreciated, others inflated.
Yet, if you were legit and wanted to sustain some good T2 fitted PvP you had to work harder. Harder enough that many low / null sec PvPers resorted exactly to RMT ISK to sustain their habits. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
115
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Posted - 2013.01.14 14:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
If you translated isk into GTC value, then yes isk back then was worth a lot more money. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
143
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Posted - 2013.01.14 15:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Consider how back then, getting and fitting a battleship was an achievement at least like today it'd be to get and fit (and fill) 2-3 carriers.
If the effort to fit a BS was about as much effort and fitting a few carriers, then by that single measurement, wouldn't that mean we had deflation?
WARNING: it is Monday(or insert any other day of the week as an excuse), so I may be a bit confused. |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
68
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Posted - 2013.01.14 16:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Keep in mind isk does not equal effort. Back in the old days having a couple billion isk made you really wealth, but now you are merely well off. This is a function of there being more isk in the game which doesn't always change the prices of items in game outside of higher end rare items. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
143
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Posted - 2013.01.14 16:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Marsan wrote:Keep in mind isk does not equal effort. Back in the old days having a couple billion isk made you really wealth, but now you are merely well off. This is a function of there being more isk in the game which doesn't always change the prices of items in game outside of higher end rare items.
ahhh, yes. The relative value of a BS has changed because the game has changed. As much as we want to compare a BS then to a BS now, we can't because they do not hold the same value as they once did. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
208
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Posted - 2013.01.14 16:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Anya Ohaya wrote:Prices were higher in 2005 for most goods than they were in 2012. (source: official dev blog). Higher prices : money is worth less. (People have very short memories, while prices have been rising for the last year or two, for most of the game's history they have been falling). The Plex market is something else again. You can't put a real world dollar value on ISK since most of us can't convert our billions directly into dollars. The rise in plex prices probably has more to do with a fall in plex supply than anything else.
Meh... I have a fair memory. Prices were falling a lot over time - sans PLEX which is 'something special' with respect to market impact. More recently, prices seem to be going up a lot - mostly over the last year. ISK was bloating a bit for the last... 18 months to 2 years but prices didn't really seem to bloom until this last year - since a couple months after the riots and what not.
I remember when I started people talking about "banking up" to move out of highsec. "need about a billion" - with lots of folks yelling about how that wasn't needed yet most newer folks found it fairly necessary. These days, a billion is "chump change" to many while others still find it to be a large amount...
As for PLEX and isk to dollars. It's kind of like eating a burger.
Once in the system, if it's your only meal to run for a day, or just 1 of a few meals... That's how one operates. Attempting to claim that what is in your system holds the same value as before you consumed it -- few would agree on this topic and fewer still that the "post process" held the same value as before you ate it.
It's common in such games to try and "reverse" the the above but this pretty much covers the topic. Once it's "in-game", it has been consumed. |
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fugazii
Slippery Penguin
16
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Posted - 2013.01.14 18:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Anya Ohaya wrote:Prices were higher in 2005 for most goods than they were in 2012. (source: official dev blog). Higher prices : money is worth less. (People have very short memories, while prices have been rising for the last year or two, for most of the game's history they have been falling). The Plex market is something else again. You can't put a real world dollar value on ISK since most of us can't convert our billions directly into dollars. The rise in plex prices probably has more to do with a fall in plex supply than anything else.
Here's the catch though. Prices were higher on t2 items as at the time much of the market was carteled by the bpo holders. Coupled with the fact that many players simply did not have the skill pool to make use of t2 mods, nor the isk backing to pay for 120m cov op cloaks(ect) and not all t2 mods had been seeded, pushed many players to use meta items. Which drove those prices up as 0.0 simply was not very populated. On the flip side though, npc seeded bpo items sold for far less. So you were paying alot less for ships and t1 mods were commonly used.
To the dude saying buying/fitting a bs was equal to the same for a carrier now in 05. Early/mid 04' maybe it was still something of a big deal, but that was kinda thrown out the window on the Great Northern War started(mid 04 I believe) when Phoenix Alliance and BoB were fielding for the first time ever 100+ bs fleets regularly.
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Durrr
In Exile.
15
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Posted - 2013.01.15 00:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Hi
I read a claim, somewhere, that the 30 billion ISK stolen by the Guiding Hand Social Club, back in 2005, was the equivalent of 16.5 thousand dollars.
That sounds quite wrong. But how wrong is it actually? How much was ISK worth, in terms of dollars, back in 2005? I'm sure it was a lot more than now, but was ISK once so scarce as to make the 1.8 million ISK-per-dollar claim true?
As best I can calculate it, at places like Shattered Crystal you pay $35 and get 2xPLEX, which sells for something like 1.1 bilion ISK. Unless I've made a mistake, that comes to 31 million ISK-per-dollar.
So were ISK worth 17 times as much back in 2005 as they are now, here in early 2013?
While module prices, especially tech 2 and faction/deadspace have come way down, 30 day gtc have gone up. When I started the game in early 2006 a 30-day gtc (roughly equivalent to a plex, as they did not exist back then) was about 100M ISK. |
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
119
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Posted - 2013.01.15 15:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
Durrr wrote:Salpad wrote:Hi
I read a claim, somewhere, that the 30 billion ISK stolen by the Guiding Hand Social Club, back in 2005, was the equivalent of 16.5 thousand dollars.
That sounds quite wrong. But how wrong is it actually? How much was ISK worth, in terms of dollars, back in 2005? I'm sure it was a lot more than now, but was ISK once so scarce as to make the 1.8 million ISK-per-dollar claim true?
As best I can calculate it, at places like Shattered Crystal you pay $35 and get 2xPLEX, which sells for something like 1.1 bilion ISK. Unless I've made a mistake, that comes to 31 million ISK-per-dollar.
So were ISK worth 17 times as much back in 2005 as they are now, here in early 2013?
While module prices, especially tech 2 and faction/deadspace have come way down, 30 day gtc have gone up. When I started the game in early 2006 a 30-day gtc (roughly equivalent to a plex, as they did not exist back then) was about 100M ISK.
That price of 100m-150m isk is correct fall circa 2006. If you convert GTC isk value to real money then isk is not worth near as much as it used to be. If you take 150 m isk for 30 days of GT then and now its around 550 m isk for 30 days, with the value of a 60 day GTC being $35.00 US then the value of isk has dropped from 8.57 million isk per dollar to 31.42 million isk per dollar. So I would say that isk was worth about 4-5 times as much in 2005 as it does now in relation to real $. |
Nerdy McButtHurt Trald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2013.01.15 16:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
We do have 1 data point.
When Ricdic ran off with EBANK funds, he sold about 250B ISK for about $5,000. That amount was in the press and he confirmed it to make some RL payments with the stolen ISK.
That was in 08 or 09 (I can't remember).
I would have to assume selling larger amounts to the purchasers gets less $/B ISK. |
Minister Man
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2013.01.15 18:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
In 2006 I used to buy 90/100 GTC for 240-270m, I remember having a much more difficult time coming up with that isk in 3 months than I do finding 560+m now in one month.
So 240m for 3 mths vs 560m for 1 mth. Puts the value of isk about 7 times what it was 6 years ago. More than 100% inflation per year over 6 years for game time purchased with in game currency. |
Towaoc
Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
14
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Posted - 2013.01.17 00:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Hi
I read a claim, somewhere, that the 30 billion ISK stolen by the Guiding Hand Social Club, back in 2005, was the equivalent of 16.5 thousand dollars.
That sounds quite wrong. But how wrong is it actually? How much was ISK worth, in terms of dollars, back in 2005? I'm sure it was a lot more than now, but was ISK once so scarce as to make the 1.8 million ISK-per-dollar claim true?
As best I can calculate it, at places like Shattered Crystal you pay $35 and get 2xPLEX, which sells for something like 1.1 bilion ISK. Unless I've made a mistake, that comes to 31 million ISK-per-dollar.
So were ISK worth 17 times as much back in 2005 as they are now, here in early 2013?
I remember chuckling at the outrageous ISK prices back in the early days, so I pulled out my old game journals from the day to see if I had made any notes on this. RMT for ISK, though in violation of the EULA, appears to have peaked at around $2.00 per 1 million ISK back in early 2004. Back then, before such transactions were cracked down on, one could go to ebay (and many other places) and find dozens of pages of listings of ISK for sale, as well as a virtual RMT character bazaar. So I'd guess that the 2005 claim is pretty accurate. ISK had probably fallen to that value by then.
Not among the most highly regarded elements of the game's history, but interesting nonetheless. Fortunately, the CCP team fairly quickly recognized the activity and began taking aggressive steps to curtail it. |
Claire Voyant
139
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Posted - 2013.01.17 01:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Minister Man wrote:So 240m for 3 mths vs 560m for 1 mth. Puts the value of isk about 7 times what it was 6 years ago. More than 100% inflation per year over 6 years for game time purchased with in game currency. 100% inflation would mean it doubled every year, or by a factor of 64 in 6 years.
700% in 6 years is more like 38% per year. (1.38^6 = 6.9) |
StarReign
Industrial Dragon Tycoons
0
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Posted - 2013.01.17 02:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
i recall back in 08,09.the price of a one month gtc(plex) cost about 100mil to 150 mil.
earning 25mil/hr back then was considered awesome.
until ccp broke eve with hi sec PVE |
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