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sableye	Posted - 2005.06.26 23:51:00 - [61] Originally by: Karl Staf last time i mined i did not need to open the cargo on the ship i was mining in.. but it was needed to open it to jetison the ore. but whit 1 mil in cargospace I would not need to open anytiong.. not saying i like the idea that these can be used for afk mining.. I don't think they have any slots at all
Sadist	Posted - 2005.06.27 04:06:00 - [62] Edited by: Sadist on 27/06/2005 04:06:12 Even if you manage to fit a mining laser, theres nothing stopping the devs from coding a simple pop-up window that says you can't activate the module, because it'd require you to access the cargo hold. Which is probably done already anyways. --------------- Originally by: Dark Shikari "One Trit to rule them all, One Trit to find them, One Trit to bring them all, and in the veldspar bind them"
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.06.27 06:51:00 - [63] Originally by: Sadist Even if you manage to fit a mining laser, theres nothing stopping the devs from coding a simple pop-up window that says you can't activate the module, because it'd require you to access the cargo hold. Since they have no High, Med, or Low slots, 1 cpu and 1 PG, i find the likelyhood that you could fit a mining laser, somewhat slim. Real men, play Rugby
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.06.27 07:03:00 - [64] That is some nice cap generation that there thingy has goin on. 3500/216s Now if only it had a fitting slot. I guess you can handle your support convoy NOSing you pretty well.. Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
Asharee Intrefer	Posted - 2005.06.27 07:15:00 - [65] Edited by: Asharee Intrefer on 27/06/2005 07:16:34 Originally by: Maxine Stirner That is some nice cap generation that there thingy has goin on. 3500/216s Now if only it had a fitting slot. I guess you can handle your support convoy NOSing you pretty well.. I think generating a warpfield for something the size of a small mountain range takes a considerable amount of cap, so it needs that recharge rate to do anything more than hop along in 1AU warps when after it's gone dry.
Zarrina	Posted - 2005.06.28 18:52:00 - [66] Any word on cost?
Dargon Starjammer	Posted - 2005.06.28 19:47:00 - [67] a freighter can carry a packaged freighter in it's cargo hold? that realy doesn't make much sence to me.... what is a freaight nothing but a big ship with the difernce between space and teh cargo hold 1 cm. of metal?
Crzycnck2	Posted - 2005.06.28 20:42:00 - [68] Originally by: Dargon Starjammer a freighter can carry a packaged freighter in it's cargo hold? that realy doesn't make much sence to me.... what is a freaight nothing but a big ship with the difernce between space and teh cargo hold 1 cm. of metal? Well what about giant containers being 3000m3 in size but has 3900m3 for space. These things are station to station so taking them anywhere else I think will be useless. If ccp does take away instas (BIG MISTAKE CCP) it will limit travel with these ships greatly. Could you imagine taking that ship 40 jumps going 60/ms to a gate 40 freakin times, that works out to be 2.315hrs of travel time (this is 40 x [15000-2500]). This of course does not take into consideration time for getting into warp, warping and then coming out of warp. That figure is simple how long it would take the ship to CRAWL to each gate to jump threw when it has come out of warp. This thing would need some escorting and that would be sooo boring and take forever. FIX FTW
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.28 22:02:00 - [69] even wthout bookmarks you could easily have it gangwarp into jumprange. It figures that these ****s need an escort, and for once, they are actually escortable due to the fact they might not be ganked in 5 seconds as opposed to nomral indies. So, they sounds perfectly fine to me so far, extremely usefull but indeed vulnerable ships. I'm sure we're gonna love em. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Citizen Angstrom	Posted - 2005.06.28 23:03:00 - [70] Originally by: Darkwolf Can't say I'm particularly pleased about the Caldari Industrial 5 requirement. But anyway, I've already got Gallente Industrial 5, so I guess I'm flying one of them :P Good point Darkwolf, and one that CCP seem to have missed. Simply put, the freighters are biased towards Gallente characters. Why? ...Everyone knows that if you want to 'be the best' at hauling, you get Gallente industrial 5 skill, and jump into an Iteron V. This means that all the Gallente specialist hauliers are ready to use the damn things, whereas all other races are not! Is it too late to beg CCP to make the skill requirement racial industrial 4 instead of 5?
Aleis	Posted - 2005.06.29 00:04:00 - [71] Any one able to get Screens from the other ships?
Bubba Fett	Posted - 2005.06.29 00:06:00 - [72] Originally by: Citizen Angstrom Good point Darkwolf, and one that CCP seem to have missed. Simply put, the freighters are biased towards Gallente characters. Why? ...Everyone knows that if you want to 'be the best' at hauling, you get Gallente industrial 5 skill, and jump into an Iteron V. This means that all the Gallente specialist hauliers are ready to use the damn things, whereas all other races are not! Is it too late to beg CCP to make the skill requirement racial industrial 4 instead of 5? Yes, it's FAR too late for that. As far as I know, every indy in the game gets a bonus to cargo space for each level of the indy skill. There's always been a good reason to train indy5, it's just a bit better reason for gallente characters. This is balanced by the fact that at lower skill levels, the gallente indy's are a lot less impressive. (compare the stats of an iteron 1 or 2 and a bestower) If you're not serious enough about hauling to train indy5 then why should you be able to move a million meters of cargo at a time? (I can drive a jetski, why can't I get a job running a supertanker?)
Citizen Angstrom	Posted - 2005.06.29 06:50:00 - [73] Originally by: Bubba Fett Originally by: Citizen Angstrom Good point Darkwolf, and one that CCP seem to have missed. Simply put, the freighters are biased towards Gallente characters. Why? ...Everyone knows that if you want to 'be the best' at hauling, you get Gallente industrial 5 skill, and jump into an Iteron V. This means that all the Gallente specialist hauliers are ready to use the damn things, whereas all other races are not! Is it too late to beg CCP to make the skill requirement racial industrial 4 instead of 5? Yes, it's FAR too late for that. As far as I know, every indy in the game gets a bonus to cargo space for each level of the indy skill. There's always been a good reason to train indy5, it's just a bit better reason for gallente characters. This is balanced by the fact that at lower skill levels, the gallente indy's are a lot less impressive. (compare the stats of an iteron 1 or 2 and a bestower) If you're not serious enough about hauling to train indy5 then why should you be able to move a million meters of cargo at a time? (I can drive a jetski, why can't I get a job running a supertanker?) Thank you Bubba. You look a little... Gallente to my eyes. I assume you have a racial industrial skill to level 5?
Bubba Fett	Posted - 2005.06.29 07:58:00 - [74] Originally by: Citizen AngstromThank you Bubba. You look a little... Gallente to my eyes. I assume you have a racial industrial skill to level 5? [/quote Why yes, I am gallente and I do have industrial 5. Now I'm busy training spacship command 5 so I'll have all the pre-req's when freighters hit the market. I've got BS level 5 too so I'm pretty close to being able to fly a dreadnaught also. (want those lowered too because you didn't want to put in the training time?) While all my friends were out having fun in their combat ships I was cooped up inside learning how to fly an It5. If you wanted to fly an indy with more cargo space you could have trained caldari indy5. If you wanted to fly the biggest indy you could have trained for an It5 yourself. Now that a bigger indy is being brought in you want the bar lowered to suit you? I think it's unfair that you need to train for a dozen years to be a highly paid doctor. I don't like school so I think I should be able to be an MD after a 2 week course.
Oisin	Posted - 2005.06.29 13:20:00 - [75] Originally by: babylonstew i hope your right, cos that armour shield ratio on a caldari ship looks more than a little borked, it would tank a gank-a-geddon, what, 25 secs to rub it out max? so much for being surviable etc... Badger has 475 armour, 175 shield. Badger Mk II has 650 armour and 350 shield. The same goes for Minmatar indies, and of course Gal and Amarr - every hauler of every race has more armour than shields. It looks like freighters are just following that pattern. OisÝn (pronounced Uh-sheen) The Council's carebear stepchild.
Kuroro Lucifer	Posted - 2005.06.29 17:36:00 - [76] Imo it would be plain stupid if these giants didn't require the specialization of Indy V. They're not supposed to be available to anyone who has the money, but to those that have invested in the training and sacrificed something else this way. Atleast I think so. The same goes for dreadnaughts, although I'd love to be able to fly one within a year. --- The spider will live forever
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.29 21:54:00 - [77] Originally by: Dargon Starjammer a freighter can carry a packaged freighter in it's cargo hold? that realy doesn't make much sence to me.... what is a freaight nothing but a big ship with the difernce between space and teh cargo hold 1 cm. of metal? Simple, the freighter is little more than a huge armoured shell around a huge empty space in the middle. When you take the shell apart (i.e. repackage it), you put all the bits together in a pile, removing all that empty space from the inside, leaving the empty space on the outside to accomodate an assembled freighter around it. It's exactly the same reason why you can fit an unassembled flat-pack wardrobe in your car, but not a fully-assembled one.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.29 22:03:00 - [78] Originally by: babylonstew i hope your right, cos that armour shield ratio on a caldari ship looks more than a little borked, it would tank a gank-a-geddon, what, 25 secs to rub it out max? so much for being surviable etc... Took like a minute and a half to kill one on sisi They're not suppose to be survivable anyway, thats what those uber tank transport ships are for. ________________________________________________________
Traxman	Posted - 2005.06.30 07:42:00 - [79] Thank you first for posting the pics on the Freighter but i think there is flaws for this ship. Basic, you are not allowed to change anything on this ship, so you just take it or leave it as it's CCPs way. First, to repair hull/armor you need a low slot and i wont even do the math to repair 10k armor at a station so ppl will rather trash the ship and buy a new one (meaby thats the CCPs plans ?) and atleast should all Freighters have enought CPU/PG to fit a medium armor or an medium hull repairer and why not PG/CPU for a 100mn ab too or 2 med for Caldari for the prop and a shiled booster. as it looks we cant do a thing with this ship, so its CCPs way - not your. This ship will come handy for ship producers that dont have every races skills and same for ore/mineral/ice haulers but I dont like the zero config options for this, and not even a chance to repair it. As i see it, you need a gang for this to get more speed and proberly someone fitted with remote armor repairer to fix damage so meaby its a new way for not playing solo anymore.. well, the time will tell us more what CCP have in mind for this ship. Now its time to change for Gallente Indi lvl5 :(
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.30 09:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Meridius Took like a minute and a half to kill one on sisi Well, a minute and a half could be a very long time if it has a significant escort shooing back at you (as it should if there's any chance of it being attacked). Incidentally, have you tried out what it would take to suicide-gank one before concord toasted you? Originally by: Traxman First, to repair hull/armor you need a low slot and i wont even do the math to repair 10k armor at a station so ppl will rather trash the ship and buy a new one (meaby thats the CCPs plans ?) Or, they could be sensible, and get a friend to use remote armor repairers on him. Structural damage would still be a bit nasty though, but if your freighter is got into structure regularly, you've probably got bigger problems.
KHEN	Posted - 2005.06.30 12:04:00 - [81] My question is : how often have you to haul 1.000.000 m3 from station to station ? As many we use Iteron mk5 with local hulls for the hauly duties, since we have some pos to feed, we haul about 1.000.000 m3 per week from fuel to advanced and tech2 components. Even with a freighter we would have to do many trips since the stuff we need/produce/sell is spanned over a dozen of systems I am really sorry to be so hurting, but I think that the cargo space is too big for a solo or small corp use. This ship will do the hapiness of medium / big corps for hauling in 0.0 space and it won't be used everyday but only sometimes. So it will have a decent escort and it will represent a great opportunity for pirates or enemy corps to take one down. Anyway I gonna buy one ASAP !!! :D
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.06.30 12:07:00 - [82] No matter how hard I try, I can't get excited about a really big box with engines. Sure, it'll be huge, and look cool, and no doubt will be very useful to some people, but for me, not a show-stopper.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.30 13:01:00 - [83] Originally by: KHEN My question is : how often have you to haul 1.000.000 m3 from station to station ? As many we use Iteron mk5 with local hulls for the hauly duties, since we have some pos to feed, we haul about 1.000.000 m3 per week from fuel to advanced and tech2 components. Even with a freighter we would have to do many trips since the stuff we need/produce/sell is spanned over a dozen of systems I am really sorry to be so hurting, but I think that the cargo space is too big for a solo or small corp use. You won't need to get anywhere near filling the thing for using one to be better than many runs in an Iteron V. Lets do some worst-case maths here. First, no instas, so 15km to travel for every jump, plus an extra one per dock. Secondly, lets guess at the freighter taking 3 times as long to warp gate-to-gate (combination aligning and possible slower warp speed). Lets also assume the average warp time for an Iteron V is 1 minute. Lets say you want to haul something to a station 5 jumps away, and end up back at base, for a 10-jump round trip. The iteron 5 takes 10 minutes in warping time, plus it has a total of 180km of normal-space to travel. I can get a fully-expanded Iteron V up to about 200m/s, for a time of 15 minutes. This gives a total travel time for one run of 25 minutes. The freighter takes 30 minutes in warp. From the stat's I've seen, I could get it up to about 75m/s, so the 180km would take 40 minutes., for a total travel time of 70 minutes. Therefore, in the time the freighter can do 1 run, the Iteron could do 2.8 runs. I belive you can ram about 30k m3 into an uber-expanded Iteron V. Which means the freighter is useful for this run if you need to haul more than 302.8 = 84k m3. That's 84/1000100 = 8.4% of the freighter's total capacity. Even if we factor in that the freighter is a juicier target than solo Iterons, so give it a 3-pilot escort, who could instead be sneaking through in iterons unescorted, the total pilot-time for the freighters is now 280 minutes, so the iterons could do 11.2 runs, for a breakeven cargo of 336k m3. So even with a 3-man escort compared to unescorted iterons, the freighter is the better option if it's over 1/3 full. Of course, if we factor in instas, so assume zero normal-space travel, the iteron takes 10 minutes, the freighter 30 minutes. So unescorted breakeven is then 90k m3, escorted is 360k m3. Iterons will still have their use for low-volume end-point distributions, but you certianly won't need a full million m3 to haul before they become useful.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.06.30 13:08:00 - [84] Some of the high end ores really dont fit too well in a iteron (i can get about 1000 units of ark with expander 1's). If your station doesnt have a refinary close by that means alot of hauling where as you could stick it in a frieghter, have a light scout or escort party and transport it, in bulk to a refinary to process. All in all i think they will make 0.0 mining alot easier, but they also need to be "dockable" with PoS to make use of them (since the lack of npc stations in 0.0), either that or just use them in empire to transport large volumes of trit. I must admit the lack of any mids or lowslots could make repairing these things a pain, without remote armour reps. Real men, play Rugby
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.30 13:40:00 - [85] Originally by: Jim Steele I must admit the lack of any mids or lowslots could make repairing these things a pain, without remote armour reps. That's the one thing that would be nice to change - give it some way of having structure damage repaired without relying on the repairshop. I don't mind it having to rely on remote repping, but the lack of both self-repping and remote-repping options for structure is a bit harsh.
KHEN	Posted - 2005.06.30 15:09:00 - [86] Matthew. Thank you for your maths about the 84000 m3 threshold, it is very smart, I will use it for sure. Now I know why the dev pushed the freighters capacity from 100.000 to 1.000.000 m3 !...
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.30 15:19:00 - [87] Originally by: KHEN Matthew. Thank you for your maths about the 84000 m3 threshold, it is very smart, I will use it for sure. Now I know why the dev pushed the freighters capacity from 100.000 to 1.000.000 m3 !... Thanks Just don't take the exact numbers as hard-and-fast. The method should be fine, but the exact numbers I used were ballpark guesstimates - you'll probably want to do some timed trial runs to get more accurate figures, but I'd be surprised if you found any route that needed the freighter to be more than 1/4 full without escorts.
Ishtari	Posted - 2005.06.30 15:34:00 - [88] lvl 4 courie5r missions are often more then 20-30k each. And it might be that a freighter is cheaper and easier to get then a full set of top expanders.
Lefia	Posted - 2005.06.30 20:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Ishtari lvl 4 courie5r missions are often more then 20-30k each. And it might be that a freighter is cheaper and easier to get then a full set of top expanders. Indeed, cost should also be a prime consideration when comparing the freighter to a fully rigged ITMK5. If freighers are fairly inexpensive (~20-30 mil) then there should be a comparison done with a similar cost ITMK5. Now I realize that we do not currently have a cost associated with the freighter, but it's definately a future consideration. Originally by: hired goon ------------------------------------------------ I agree with every point and counter point that has been brought up in this and every other argument ever had. ---------
Private Botch	Posted - 2005.06.30 21:27:00 - [90] Edited by: Private Botch on 30/06/2005 21:28:16 Well what I'm looking at is using the Frieghter for mining OPs. Not in the normal sense. Using the Freighter to move in the hauler, and Mining barges to a station with a low refine. Use the ships until you have a full load of Ore for the frieghter with the Ships inside and move back to a Perfect refine at another station. I know that all empire stations will be getting reprocessing but it doesn't mean they are going to be any good. With 1 large mining barge with strip miners. It will take 17.5 hours to full a Freighter so with a few people it wouldn't take long.

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