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Time for some Retribution love?

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H0ot	Posted - 2005.06.25 10:13:00 - [1] You've heard this before, I know. But most posts on this awefully gimped AF (sporting no less than ONE midslot ) were made prior to the pulse nerf. A lot has changed since then. Now with Small Pulses dead and buried and every Amarr frigate being outclassed by other races, surely there is nothing to stop the Retribution from getting its long overdue second midslot? Right now it doesn't even live up to its role as a point defense/escort ship - since laser tracking is so slow it simply can't track or catch enemy interceptors/frigates without a web/MWD combo.
Shadowsword	Posted - 2005.06.25 10:19:00 - [2] Either that, or a bonus to webbifier range AND a much needed decrease of beam laser grid requirments, but the retribution need some love, I agree.
Selim	Posted - 2005.06.25 10:36:00 - [3] The only way it would get a second midslot is if it only had 4 lowslots... Oh, and retribution is the most damaging AF, including when fitted with medium beams (it has a damage bonus, which is not standard for lasers). It makes sense that they are hard to fit. It has 5 lows, surely you can afford to fit a micro aux or two? I'd rather the devs focus on the vengeance, hawk, ishkur and jaguar, they suck.
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.06.25 10:42:00 - [4] Reducing grid requirements of Medium Beams will help alot, not just on the assault frigs but the other small ships aswell. ------------------------------------------
Hast	Posted - 2005.06.25 10:53:00 - [5] Edited by: Hast on 25/06/2005 10:53:32 not just on medium pulses but small energy guns in general. edit: has half of eve joined ATUF now?
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.06.25 11:14:00 - [6] Retribution most dmging? what about blasterenyo or AC wolf? You might have bigger range on retribution,but you are without AB or mwd. (pulses wont hit inty in 7.5k orbit, if not webbed). So retribution is not most dmging. Problematic are all small lasers. For instance: gatling pulse II needs 6pg,4cpu, 150mm ac t2 2PG, 6cpu.(and 150mm acs are better in just everything) And retribution dmging with beams does crappy dmg. If you want to fit 2 dmg mods, you need to fit cpu.
Marskalkur	Posted - 2005.06.25 11:30:00 - [7] Retribution needs a another med slot in exchange for it's "extra" high slot, not in exchange for a low slot! this ship has no missile bay, it can't hold drones. it is by far the most predictable ship you'd ever encounter. the pulse nerf made all amarr frigs short to extreme short range ships. one med slot just don't cut it!
Techyon	Posted - 2005.06.25 11:30:00 - [8] With certain setups the retribution is an awesome ship. It's one of the most though AF's if you fit it right. You need to use a heavily underrated module which most people ignore, maybe that's why people think it sucks.. The one midslot IS a problem ofcourse. Don't bother scrambling or webbing with it, use it as a very though support ship with a dual small rep tank, add 2 heatsinks and the beast hurts. I do like my enyo better although if I stay in a fight with a well setup retri it would cost me my ship most likely ( problem with the retri is that your apponent either gets away, or if you fit a scrambler, will probaply outdmg and defeat you ) ------ ARIN Recruiter
Selim	Posted - 2005.06.25 13:54:00 - [9] Originally by: LUKEC Retribution most dmging? what about blasterenyo or AC wolf? You might have bigger range on retribution,but you are without AB or mwd. (pulses wont hit inty in 7.5k orbit, if not webbed). So retribution is not most dmging. Problematic are all small lasers. For instance: gatling pulse II needs 6pg,4cpu, 150mm ac t2 2PG, 6cpu.(and 150mm acs are better in just everything) And retribution dmging with beams does crappy dmg. If you want to fit 2 dmg mods, you need to fit cpu. Well blaster enyo of course, but I mean long range guns. And AC Wolf kinda sucks damagewise tbh, Claw is better and easier to fit. But anyway beam wise yes the retri is the most damaging. Consider how beams with no ship bonus are roughly equal damage to hybrids with one and projectiles with 2, and the retribution gets one. BTW, if you think the Retribution is bad at fitting look at the Wolf, same CPU and even less powergrid... less than the damn caldari one. And personally, I think the retribution makes the best 'assault' frigate, because its such a good damage dealer and a decent tank. Due to that it has to forfeit versatility.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.06.25 17:35:00 - [10] u fly one? Only viable setup is 4x med pulse II web small repper, 3x hsII, cpu Now if you call this tank... well call it. It has dmg output, but i'd switch for blasters & ab anytime you want.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.25 20:24:00 - [11] Originally by: Selim Oh, and retribution is the most damaging AF, including when fitted with medium beams (it has a damage bonus, which is not standard for lasers) Thats great but it can't stop **** or control range so yeah anything can warpout making it useless. ________________________________________________________
Selim	Posted - 2005.06.25 20:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Selim on 25/06/2005 20:33:04 Originally by: LUKEC u fly one? Only viable setup is 4x med pulse II web small repper, 3x hsII, cpu Now if you call this tank... well call it. It has dmg output, but i'd switch for blasters & ab anytime you want. 4 med beam II named web small rep II, 2 HS II, micro aux, CPU II Does 150 + dps and tanks quite well. Yeah it cant hold much Meridius, but thats sort of the price to pay for being really good at both damage and tanking. Tbh its not that hard to fit at all. Wolf is alot harder.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.25 20:38:00 - [13] Edited by: Meridius on 25/06/2005 20:39:53 Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 25/06/2005 20:33:04 Originally by: LUKEC u fly one? Only viable setup is 4x med pulse II web small repper, 3x hsII, cpu Now if you call this tank... well call it. It has dmg output, but i'd switch for blasters & ab anytime you want. 4 med beam II named web small rep II, 2 HS II, micro aux, CPU II Does 150 + dps and tanks quite well. Yeah it cant hold much Meridius, but thats sort of the price to pay for being really good at both damage and tanking. Tbh its not that hard to fit at all. Wolf is alot harder. Wow, thats like 20 more DPS then a harpy, totally worth it. I guess thats why i see so many retributions around I'm sure the wolf would be easier to fit if it lost a midslot ________________________________________________________
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.06.25 20:50:00 - [14] Unless there is a mixed fleet incentive, then there is still little point for AFs. If there is a mechanic to encourage mixed fleets, then all the AFs need to be the best and longest range damage dealers and not merely slightly better than inties but with a tank (a tanked frig comeon). A comprehensive change to mixed fleets puts inty damage below tech1 damage output. Frigs need to have a certain measure of operational viability (within tactical limits, not time limits) even without AB or MWD, at least against Battleships. This includes AFs. With such a change, Retribution would be a valuable asset to any gang or fleet. A comprehensive change to battlefields might also be a pursue into warp capacity, at least for those with fast ships. I fly all amarr ships, that's AFs, inties, and I even have Amarr BS to V.. I am really not biased towards any class of them. However, I find the mixed fleet mechanics which Castor attempted to restore were insufficient or ill-considered. Without an onus on mixed composition of fleets, tactical position on the battlefield matters less and less, and repositioning on the field is scarcely encouraged. Because of this, and the relationship of frigs to other ships in general, ABs and MWDs simply don't make a difference.. they are taken for granted. It's not just another module or tactical choice. You simply die without one if you are in a small hull. Frigates should be plenty evasive even without them. Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
R31D	Posted - 2005.06.26 10:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Selim I'd rather the devs focus on the vengeance, hawk, ishkur and jaguar, they suck. Hawk and Ishkur do NOT suck. You've obviously never fought a decent pilot in one. An Ishkur and Hawk both have the ability to deal all 4 types of damage at once, and to change their damage types, to suit their enemy. This means that they are good at anti-AF roles, and they will generally kick anything else to death, if setup right
Ante	Posted - 2005.06.26 12:37:00 - [16] Edited by: Ante on 26/06/2005 12:37:48 Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 25/06/2005 20:33:044 med beam II named web small rep II, 2 HS II, micro aux, CPU II Does 150 + dps and tanks quite well. Yeah it cant hold much Meridius, but thats sort of the price to pay for being really good at both damage and tanking. So... it gets torn up by just about anything that uses missiles or any other AF/inty/frig/rax because they're all faster. Wow that really makes me think "assault" not to mention "worthwhile".
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.06.26 14:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Hast Edited by: Hast on 25/06/2005 10:53:32 not just on medium pulses but small energy guns in general. edit: has half of eve joined ATUF now? No, only medium beams. The other laser turrets either take the same amount or less than their hybrid counter part, while fitted on ships with either same amount or more powergrid. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.06.26 14:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Hast Edited by: Hast on 25/06/2005 10:53:32 not just on medium pulses but small energy guns in general. edit: has half of eve joined ATUF now? No, only medium beams. The other laser turrets either take the same amount or less than their hybrid counter part, while fitted on ships with either same amount or more powergrid. Me looks at gatling pulseII and t2 200mm ac. Then i look at claw and crusader. Oh, don't forget, i'm comparing amarr's smallest short range gun and minmaters biggest one. I don't want to see any nerfs to other races, but amarr frigs need some love.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.06.26 15:14:00 - [19] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Hast Edited by: Hast on 25/06/2005 10:53:32 not just on medium pulses but small energy guns in general. edit: has half of eve joined ATUF now? No, only medium beams. The other laser turrets either take the same amount or less than their hybrid counter part, while fitted on ships with either same amount or more powergrid. Me looks at gatling pulseII and t2 200mm ac. Then i look at claw and crusader. Oh, don't forget, i'm comparing amarr's smallest short range gun and minmaters biggest one. I don't want to see any nerfs to other races, but amarr frigs need some love. Wasn't talking about Projectiles. I'm not too aware of Projectiles at all, so I tend to make the following comparisons (fitting of hybrid minus fitting of laser, plus means advantage laser): 150mm Railgun I - Medium Beam I = - 7 powergrid and +3 CPU Light Neutron I - Medium Pulse I = ¦0 powergrid and +4 CPU This is not calculating any ship bonuses, nor differences of turrets, just a straight comparison. We clearly see that the Medium Beam has outrageous fitting requirements! The Medium Pulse, however, does not. Oh, and when it comes to the 200mm Autocannon, merely reviewing the stats my initial reaction is that it is way too low powergrid requirement considering Minmatar is strong in the powergrid department (if not stronger, then equally strong as Gallente). The 200mm does, however, have a pretty poor DoT and tracking. The first tend to be fixed by the ship bonus, but the latter often goes unmodified. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.26 16:19:00 - [20] Edited by: Blind Fear on 26/06/2005 16:19:23 At least until the next patch, amarr interceptors are extremely lethal. The only thing that can give a well-flown malediction a decent fight is a claw, and a crusader is evil for killing larger ships. I would argue that the retribution needs 60 base grid, a 5th turret slot, and thats it. I'd worry more about the vengence.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.06.26 17:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Blind Fear Edited by: Blind Fear on 26/06/2005 16:19:23 At least until the next patch, amarr interceptors are extremely lethal. The only thing that can give a well-flown malediction a decent fight is a claw, and a crusader is evil for killing larger ships. I would argue that the retribution needs 60 base grid, a 5th turret slot, and thats it. I'd worry more about the vengence. Oh yes... 5 guns... mmm, sounds good trade for lack of med slots. Some more grid, a little more cpu and a cookie and i'll whine no more about amarr AFs. And we are also getting close to the dmg of the blastertaranis.
Bruchpilot	Posted - 2005.06.26 19:46:00 - [22] I'd say the Retri and Wolf don't need a boost but the Harpy/Enyo need a nerf. No ship should be able to fit a full rack of the best longrange guns without sacrificing a lowslot.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Selim Oh, and retribution is the most damaging AF, including when fitted with medium beams (it has a damage bonus, which is not standard for lasers) Thats great but it can't stop **** or control range so yeah anything can warpout making it useless. So it's not meant to solo. And? It's still useful, unlike it's cousin which bluntly is the worst AF. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Bruchpilot I'd say the Retri and Wolf don't need a boost but the Harpy/Enyo need a nerf. No ship should be able to fit a full rack of the best longrange guns without sacrificing a lowslot. 's funny, I must be the only one who think the Enyo is sub-par. And I also seem to be the only one in love with the Vengeance. Must be the med slots. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:35:00 - [25] Edited by: Meridius on 26/06/2005 20:35:45 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Hast Edited by: Hast on 25/06/2005 10:53:32 not just on medium pulses but small energy guns in general. edit: has half of eve joined ATUF now? No, only medium beams. The other laser turrets either take the same amount or less than their hybrid counter part, while fitted on ships with either same amount or more powergrid. Not true Ithidlin. A Crusader has to fit 4 guns because of it's 25% bonus. Thats 1 more gun taking up CPU and PG then a Taranis or Claw. Yet...it has the same amount of grid and cpu as a claw ________________________________________________________
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:43:00 - [26] fitting the crusader with the smallest beams you can and a mwd takes all your powergrid... sound fair?
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.26 21:03:00 - [27] Edited by: Blind Fear on 26/06/2005 21:03:51 Originally by: Altai Saker fitting the crusader with the smallest beams you can and a mwd takes all your powergrid... sound fair? When you see what those beams do to ships, and when you realize that it has the cap to use them with a 20k scrambler - yes. It is lethally effective against cruisers and the like. Both of the amarr interceptors are excellent ships, and neither need a boost of any kind. The retribution should probably get a 5th turret, and arguably needs 3-4 more base powergrid.
Hast	Posted - 2005.06.26 22:15:00 - [28] Originally by: Altai Saker fitting the crusader with the smallest beams you can and a mwd takes all your powergrid... sound fair? I would settle for one more base pg one the crusader... and no, the crusader is good, but its not fine. Small energy turrets are the problem. To fitting hungry compared to other guns... Why is there no possible way whatsoever to fit a full set of the largest small guns on a crusader when all other inties can do it, albeit with some sacrifices. You run out of both PG and CPU when trying to fit either medium pulse or medium beam
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.06.27 11:16:00 - [29] crusader needs some tweaking... probably 3 gun slots + missile launcher & 50% dmg bonus, just like other intys. Oh about smallest long range guns. Taranis can easily fit 125mm rails t2... not to mention that taranis + 125mm t2 > crusader + dl beams t2. 1 more low slot is just good for MAPC.
Apoll	Posted - 2005.06.27 13:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Nomen Nescio My vote: Add 5th turret on ret. Why? Because every1 else can fit a launcher WITH 4 guns. Ret is upposed to oudamage them all with 1 med = firepower only. 5th gun please Be sane. If caldari and gallente can fit 150 rail np, then ret should be able to fit no problem. All that crap about "med beam is uber already" is pointless. I dont say that 150 rail on hawk will fire atimater on stupid ranges. And I dont say what dps neutrons can do on enyo. Its all not the point. 2 races can fit biggest long range guns and 2 can't. But with ret its totaly impossible to use them in any easonable way. Slots are ok, 1 med with 5 guns and decent fitting for lasers would be enough Thank you. Nomen as you know Retribution need only 1 setup to be the ultimate AF. :) 5th slot will be fine on retribution but not neccesary if CPU or grid don't raise a little too. (A T2 nos is doing good job too) Now regarding Retribution I found that the ship operates really good with autocannons 4X 200mm T2 Auto - 1 X T2 Nos AB 1mn T2 400mm Rolled armour - Small rep T2, 3 gyrostabilizer. The above setup has 0.8s rof, AB and rep working for ever on the same time and 1606 armour to be able eat a lot of damage with high resists. For long range I think 280mm hoitzers with few modifications on the low setups (nanofibers for speed to , gyro). For the people who will shout about projectiles on retribution I would like first to see some ships like retribution and Maller what benefit they have by using laser than something else.

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