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Time for some Retribution love?

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Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:06:00 - [91] Originally by: Blind Fear Originally by: Meridius So you can fit a rack of medium beams and have a tank with 70% res to all + outdamage a Harpy? Rigggggggggggght That is exactly what youre asking for when you ask for a 5th turret slot, an extra midslot, and easy fitting for medium beams. Doesnt sound entirely balanced when phrased like that, does it? No it doesn't sound balanced when you make **** up. Selims setup: 4 med beam II named web small rep II, 2 HS II, micro aux, CPU II 150DPS Easier fitting reqs and what, you think you'll be able to get 70% res to all? What are you gonna ditch, the aux for a hardner, no cpu. Thats moot anyway, 1 hardner isnt going to get you 70% to all. Add another midslot? That takes up more cpu so how that brings you closer to the 150DPS 70% res Retri is beyond me. Add another turret, you'll have cpu issues. ________________________________________________________
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:29:00 - [92] Originally by: Meridius BTW, all AF's suck tbh, none of them need nerfing. Some ships need a better fourth bonus than others. This would be based on Frigate level instead of the current listed resistances (which are CLASS bonuses) Discuss! -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:37:00 - [93] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Meridius BTW, all AF's suck tbh, none of them need nerfing. Some ships need a better fourth bonus than others. This would be based on Frigate level instead of the current listed resistances (which are CLASS bonuses) Discuss! Well, my Zealot goes faster then all of them (cept minmatard) with AB/MWD. After the cruiser agility/speed patch, i'll probably beat a Wolf. If thats not wrong i don't know what is. No they shouldn't go as fast as inties but they should top around 2.5-3km/s. A Vagabond with mwd murders them all, a lot faster, better resists, way better damage, way better tanking, way more HP, just about everything... ________________________________________________________
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.28 01:05:00 - [94] Originally by: Meridius Did the numbers. Medium Beam II on a Retri @ AS 4 21km optimal, 5000m falloff 10.5km with MF 150mm Rail II on a Harpy @ AS 4 37.8km optimal, 7500m falloff 18.9km with AM Wow, that 15% damage really matters worth a ** doesn't it? You said you have to switch down a crystal? More bull**, you have to switch down from MF, past gamma, past xray, on to UV and you still have a lower optimal. 18.375km and still 40% less falloff. So lets sum up here, less optimal, 40% less falloff, 10% less damage. Anymore crappy arguments? There's three kinds of lies. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Lets try the same thing with an enyo. Medium Beam II on a Retri @ AS 4 21km optimal, 5000m falloff 10.5km with MF 13.125km with Gamma 150mm Rail II on a Enyo @ AS 4 24.5km optimal, 7500m falloff 12.25km with AM Looks like dropping down one crystal gives more range, and more damage, while still keeping 42% better tracking. But you are down 2500m of falloff. Oh noes!
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.28 01:33:00 - [95] Originally by: Blind Fear Originally by: Meridius Did the numbers. Medium Beam II on a Retri @ AS 4 21km optimal, 5000m falloff 10.5km with MF 150mm Rail II on a Harpy @ AS 4 37.8km optimal, 7500m falloff 18.9km with AM Wow, that 15% damage really matters worth a ** doesn't it? You said you have to switch down a crystal? More bull**, you have to switch down from MF, past gamma, past xray, on to UV and you still have a lower optimal. 18.375km and still 40% less falloff. So lets sum up here, less optimal, 40% less falloff, 10% less damage. Anymore crappy arguments? There's three kinds of lies. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Lets try the same thing with an enyo. Medium Beam II on a Retri @ AS 4 21km optimal, 5000m falloff 10.5km with MF 13.125km with Gamma 150mm Rail II on a Enyo @ AS 4 24.5km optimal, 7500m falloff 12.25km with AM Looks like dropping down one crystal gives more range, and more damage, while still keeping 42% better tracking. But you are down 2500m of falloff. Oh noes! We've been talking bout the Harpy this whole time and now you bring up the Enyo? Convenient. You also forgot about the 25% tracking bonus the Enyo gets or the 25% BASE damage bonus it gets as well. Give up. ________________________________________________________
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.28 02:03:00 - [96] Originally by: Meridius We've been talking bout the Harpy this whole time and now you bring up the Enyo? Convenient. You also forgot about the 25% tracking bonus the Enyo gets or the 25% BASE damage bonus it gets as well. Give up. We've been talking about both. Well, we were until it was inconvienent for you. And with the 20% damage bonus instead of the 25% you're still doing more damage with medium beams, one crystal lower, with a higher optimal. But the 20% increase in tracking drops the laser tracking advantage to only 19%. More damage, optimal, and tracking STILL. All for the cost of 2500m falloff.
Jan Ors	Posted - 2005.06.28 02:25:00 - [97] Edited by: Jan Ors on 28/06/2005 02:26:26 Originally by: Meridus Well, my Zealot goes faster then all of them (cept minmatard) with AB/MWD. After the cruiser agility/speed patch, i'll probably beat a Wolf. If thats not wrong i don't know what is. No they shouldn't go as fast as inties but they should top around 2.5-3km/s. A Vagabond with mwd murders them all, a lot faster, better resists, way better damage, way better tanking, way more HP, just about everything... That's because, with the exception of the interceptors, all frigate masses are broken. Whereas the highest cruiser masses only stray from their base level by a 40% increase, and battleship masses by 15%, frigates regularly have around 100% more mass. The heaviest frigs - the Covert Ops Bombers - have a 225% mass increase. ThatÆs why assaults are painfully slow with mwds and abs, and the same for covert ops, faction frigates, and a lot, if not most the tech I frigs. Bloody well very broken. And bloody well very unbalanced. ________ My chosen sig won't fit. Fah.
Liet Traep	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:51:00 - [98] Originally by: Hast Originally by: Altai Saker fitting the crusader with the smallest beams you can and a mwd takes all your powergrid... sound fair? I would settle for one more base pg one the crusader... and no, the crusader is good, but its not fine. Small energy turrets are the problem. To fitting hungry compared to other guns... Why is there no possible way whatsoever to fit a full set of the largest small guns on a crusader when all other inties can do it, albeit with some sacrifices. You run out of both PG and CPU when trying to fit either medium pulse or medium beam I'd be happy if I could run a full rack of the SMALLEST beams. Can't even fit dual light beam 2's without gimping your setup much less medium beams.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:53:00 - [99] \o/ this thread is back
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:00:00 - [100] Originally by: Blind Fear Originally by: Meridius We've been talking bout the Harpy this whole time and now you bring up the Enyo? Convenient. You also forgot about the 25% tracking bonus the Enyo gets or the 25% BASE damage bonus it gets as well. Give up. We've been talking about both. Well, we were until it was inconvienent for you. And with the 20% damage bonus instead of the 25% you're still doing more damage with medium beams, one crystal lower, with a higher optimal. But the 20% increase in tracking drops the laser tracking advantage to only 19%. More damage, optimal, and tracking STILL. All for the cost of 2500m falloff. No it's always been about the Harpy since this whole line of drivel has crawled out from Selims comparison between the DPS of a Retribution with medium beams and a Harpy with 150mm's. You lost the argument and now you're turning towards the Enyo, gg. Hell, i can break your argument there by saying that the Enyo has the ability to web and scramble as a trade off for doing slightly less DPS. Why bother tho, you'll probably start comparing the Retri to a Merlin ________________________________________________________
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:07:00 - [101] Edited by: Blind Fear on 28/06/2005 16:09:50 Originally by: Meridius Hell, i can break your argument there by saying that the Enyo has the ability to web and scramble as a trade off for doing slightly less DPS. Why bother tho, you'll probably start comparing the Retri to a Merlin And it doesnt have the tanking capability of a retribution. Notice how balance means that you give something to get something. For a retribution, you trade a 2nd midslot for a ton of cap, excellent overall resists, and solid damage. Originally by: Liet Traep I'd be happy if I could run a full rack of the SMALLEST beams. Can't even fit dual light beam 2's without gimping your setup much less medium beams. I use dual light beams almost exclusively on amarr interceptors. They are highly effective ranged weapons.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:16:00 - [102] If you go beyond class then tell me how ret is better then maller: Maller cheaper. Way better insurance Extra 1 low, 2 meds and 1 high. Extra turret Can fit any frig weaponry like nothing. Can have 10km nos together with all that weaponry Has comparable speed. If fact I dont remember the sisi stats but it should be very close speed base and for sure faster with mwd then ret because of the sane mass Have bonus to resists which is smaller then AF totals but way more cap and cpu to fit and run hards. Ability to fit 1600 with battle setup, which is after patch +3k armor base and over 5k armor total Ability to fit 6 damage mods if needed with med beams if you want or 280II Whats the point of AF? A bit faster turn and a bit faster warp? :)
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:21:00 - [103] AFs are much more agile, faster warping, and have a much smaller sig radius. That's about the extent of their advantages over cruisers, aside from the tech2 omgwtfbbq l33t factor.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:25:00 - [104] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Whats the point of AF? A bit faster turn and a bit faster warp? :) There is no point. They are a worthless class.
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:29:00 - [105] Originally by: DrunkenOne There is no point. They are a worthless class. Best use I've found for them is using ishkurs/hawks to provide ECM support to frigate gangs.
Nez Perces	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:32:00 - [106] Edited by: Nez Perces on 28/06/2005 16:32:45 Originally by: DrunkenOne There is no point. They are a worthless class. I do prefer the locking time on my retribution to the locking time on say... my maller....AF's are excellent support craft imho....and the retri is like a mini-geddon.. + it looks sweet as...
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:40:00 - [107] Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 28/06/2005 16:32:45 Originally by: DrunkenOne There is no point. They are a worthless class. I do prefer the locking time on my retribution to the locking time on say... my maller....AF's are excellent support craft imho....and the retri is like a mini-geddon.. + it looks sweet as... So you are paying 2x the price of a maller for a ship that locks a bit faster?
Nez Perces	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:58:00 - [108] Originally by: DrunkenOne So you are paying 2x the price of a maller for a ship that locks a bit faster? Maybe I have too many iskies ?... /emote checks wallet... liar liar pants on fire...
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:59:00 - [109] Originally by: Nez Perces and the retri is like a mini-geddon.. The Zealot is the mini Geddon, the Retri doenn't deserve that title 1 gun off my Zealot does outdamages a Retri ________________________________________________________
Nez Perces	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:03:00 - [110] Originally by: Meridius The Zealot is the mini Geddon, the Retri doenn't deserve that title retribution = mini-mini-mini-geddon... key-ring geddon perhaps ?
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:10:00 - [111] Originally by: Elve Sorrow It's a waste of a very good model. So's siim's mom .
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:16:00 - [112] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Elve Sorrow It's a waste of a very good model. So's siim's mom . milf? ________________________________________________________
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:21:00 - [113] Originally by: Nez Perces I do prefer the locking time on my retribution to the locking time on say... my maller....AF's are excellent support craft imho....and the retri is like a mini-geddon.. + it looks sweet as... Default lock time difference is negligable for any big target. For the small target Maller has advantage of 2 extra mid which you can fit with 2 sensor boosters and lock faster then any AF. 5th gun = 25% dps over 4 guns = best AF damage bonus. With 6 damage mods and 2 sensor boosters Maller will outlock and outdamage 2 AF both per volley and overtime. Which with lets say 280II and skills should mean around 1000 HP per volley. Outdamage 2 AF, outlock any AF for the price of half enyo with excellent insurance payoff and one of the last possitions on enemy fireteam list.
Profess0r Mansechs0r	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:24:00 - [114] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Default lock time difference is negligable for any big target. For the small target Maller has advantage of 2 extra mid which you can fit with 2 sensor boosters and lock faster then any AF. 5th gun = 25% dps over 4 guns = best AF damage bonus. With 6 damage mods and 2 sensor boosters Maller will outlock and outdamage 2 AF both per volley and overtime. Which with lets say 280II and skills should mean around 1000 HP per volley. Outdamage 2 AF, outlock any AF for the price of half enyo with excellent insurance payoff and one of the last possitions on enemy fireteam list. 6 hsIIs ftl, 1600 plate rules
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:30:00 - [115] Originally by: Profess0r Mansechs0r 6 hsIIs ftl, 1600 plate rules True, but even with 1600 + 5 damage mods + any frig guns Maller will be provide damage close to 2 AF:) I was just giving an overview of OPTIONS Maller has. And problem with AFs is that they practically dont have any options at all.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:32:00 - [116] Why use a Maller, use a Thorax. 2000m3 drones ftw, can fit a 1600 plate, gets a bonus for mwd and ofc, fit small guns. 2000m3 drones > frigs/inties/assaults ________________________________________________________
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.28 18:07:00 - [117] Originally by: Meridius Why use a Maller, use a Thorax. 2000m3 drones ftw, can fit a 1600 plate, gets a bonus for mwd and ofc, fit small guns. 2000m3 drones > frigs/inties/assaults Because then you argue with this crowd you will think ahead. Once you take thorax they they scream that its overpowered, and not an argument. By the way Moa - 4 guns, 2 med noses, 4 meds (mwd + any ew gear, 3 webs will stop a ceptor like a brick wall), 4 lows. How can AF be possibly better?
Mortuus	Posted - 2005.06.28 18:58:00 - [118] The reasons to fly an AF, agility and signature. Mostly signature. Cruisers die fast to a BS with a painter, where with a little cunning AF's can get right up close. Mind you, not so great on missle boats but other than that, orbiting at 11km makes you a real pain for most BS, keep the scrambler going and have a buddy with web nearby. As for the Ret, I'm actually quite happy with its performance over the wolf right now as well, much more staying power and the ability to pick your fights is about the same anyway. Though yes, I do miss that second midslot its made up for with a wingman.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.28 19:19:00 - [119] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 28/06/2005 19:19:23 Problem is that as we saw before, cruisers are faster. Can if they wish tank way better. Or can deal twice of a damage. If you attack enemy bs and he has paints and webs, both af and cruiser will die. But for instance thorax with mwd, 2 webs and smal neutonrs plus 4 hards and 1600 has way better chances to go on 500m orbit then enyo. Will tank better even with more hits and in case of bad luck will cost practicaly nothing to lose. PS Cruisers with 4 meds can effectively be used as ew group, while afs has no that much slots and cap to run jams.
Captin Biltmore	Posted - 2005.06.28 19:32:00 - [120] Originally by: Mortuus The reasons to fly an AF, agility and signature. Mostly signature. Cruisers die fast to a BS with a painter, where with a little cunning AF's can get right up close. Mind you, not so great on missle boats but other than that, orbiting at 11km makes you a real pain for most BS, keep the scrambler going and have a buddy with web nearby. As for the Ret, I'm actually quite happy with its performance over the wolf right now as well, much more staying power and the ability to pick your fights is about the same anyway. Though yes, I do miss that second midslot its made up for with a wingman. I just thought that I'd comment on your statement that an assult frig at 11km orbiting a BS is ok. Wow, have you ever done that? I mean, I kill intercepters with my apoc and megapulses while they are orbiting at 6k at 4200m/s. 2 TII painters **** up a frig's day. I never even got off a full volly, 2 guns hit the damn thing and it went poof.

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