I dont agree...

Skiff... used fordangerous operations, amacing tank

Mackinaw... used for solo mining, huge orehold

Hulk... used for fleet mining, best m3 out put

you want best ore hold get a Mack

I dont agree...

Skiff... used fordangerous operations, amacing tank

Mackinaw... used for solo mining, huge orehold

Hulk... used for fleet mining, best m3 out put

you want best ore hold get a Mack

Wrong. Hold large enough to hold only one cycle is broken. It needs to be at least 2, to make flipping viable without macro.

+1

If CCP thinks mineral faucet is too big and needs to be decreased, it should do so through legitimate means like flat out decreasing stripper yield, not indirectly through broken mechanics like this, ruining gameplay in the process.

How many hulks are you trying to run? The hulks hold is fine as is and it works great for fleet tops.

As great as gun that holds one round of ammo. It needs to hold 2, not 1, to be workable. Bare minimum.

Mine work fine as is, so I still fail to see the problem.

How many hulks are you trying to run?

But please consider having the Hulk's ore hold boosted. it is bigger and require more skills to use.

the hulk is bigger than the mack, and therefor should have a better yield and a bigger ore hold.

When people use the Retriever instead of the hulk, because the hulk is to expensive and too risky to use towards the result. and the richer ppl use the mackinaw cuz its easier to use. the Hulk will not be used anymore and the problem still persist with low usage of mining ships.

The orca is also so slow that it should have a much bigger ore hold.

Skiffs are for mining in hostile area's, that's why they have such a huge buffer and gtfo potential. As a sacrifice, they pull in 9% less than a Mackinaw. They can also hold just under half the amount of ore that a Mackinaw can in their ore bay.

Mackinaws are for solo mining, that's why they have such a huge ore bay. They also have a pretty solid buffer tank.

Hulks are for mining in fleets, that's why they have such a massive yield, 20% above that of a Mackinaw. As a sacrifice, have a smaller ore bay and a weaker tank.

I dont agree...

Skiff... used fordangerous operations, amacing tank

Mackinaw... used for solo mining, huge orehold

Hulk... used for fleet mining, best m3 out put

you want best ore hold get a Mack

I agree that the hulk could use a little love. It's somewhat underwhelming. But it needs neither yield nor ore hold. What it needs is to be a little more tankier. Then it would be fine.

15k EHP with max yield not enough?

Err... the Hulk requires the same amount of skills as all the other Exhumers. Exhumers level 1.


This was already the case before the mining barge rebalance. The Hulk was superior to every other barge out there.

CCP wanted to make all the barges viable so they would all get used. So they took away the Hulk's ability to store ore and gave it to the Mackinaw. The Hulk is still the ultimate mining barge as it has the highest mining yield, but it requires a fleet to be truly effective. The other barges cannot mine as much, but make up for it in other ways.


"Low usage" is not always the fault of the ship. The Hulk works best when it is part of a team... sadly most people (especially miners) don't like working together because "it's MY ore... mine, mine mine!! Preciousssssssss...."


Ummm... 50k ore hold... 40k corporate hanger space... ~30 to 50k cargo hold...

That's about 120k to 140k m3 of space for ore storage. Sure, it's not all dedicated space... but it's not like you can't store the ore in those other holds.

Actually having a 70 mil SP indy alt, Its not because we want my ore my ore. It's because when we join a player corp griefers join the corp just so they can gank without concord interfering. So we stay in NPC corps, where our ships are reletively safe and we can mine in peace.

And the orca has around 225,000 total M3 of space when fully upgraded for cargo. Although Honestly I wuld like to see it given more space for "ore".

In fleets of more then 5 - 10 hulks I have to run to the station to empty the orca every 5-15 minuets, even fully upgraded. And it takes about 3 minuets to warp to the station and 3 minuets to warp back, sometimes 5-6 minuets there and 5-6 back depending on the system. So it is a constant scoop Dock empty, Run back Scoop Dock empty. Because it does not have enough space in the ore hold to support even 1 squad of hulks, let a lone larger fleets.

To be honest they should just make the Rorq Available for Use in highsec, I mean its an Industrial ship.... What is the purpose of restricting it to 0.0 and lowsec where it is rarely if ever used? I've played eve for 10 years and been all over 0.0, and I think I've seen maybe 5 in 10 years actually being used. CVA uses one so does -7-, Pandemic used one, and I've seen razors. But each of these allaince only ever have 1 Rorq it seems, and I have only ever seen 1 in lowsec. Parked at a POS.

Actually having a 70 mil SP indy alt, Its not because we want my ore my ore. It's because when we join a player corp griefers join the corp just so they can gank without concord interfering. So we stay in NPC corps, where our ships are reletively safe and we can mine in peace.

In fleets of more then 5 - 10 hulks I have to run to the station to empty the orca every 5-15 minuets, even fully upgraded. And it takes about 3 minuets to warp to the station and 3 minuets to warp back, sometimes 5-6 minuets there and 5-6 back depending on the system. So it is a constant scoop Dock empty, Run back Scoop Dock empty. Because it does not have enough space in the ore hold to support even 1 squad of hulks, let a lone larger fleets.

To be honest they should just make the Rorq Available for Use in highsec, I mean its an Industrial ship.... What is the purpose of restricting it to 0.0 and lowsec where it is rarely if ever used? I've played eve for 10 years and been all over 0.0, and I think I've seen maybe 5 in 10 years actually being used. CVA uses one so does -7-, Pandemic used one, and I've seen razors. But each of these allaince only ever have 1 Rorq it seems, and I have only ever seen 1 in lowsec. Parked at a POS.

This ship is great and it needs to see more use allow for it to be used in Highsec so it can get the love it deserves.

Don't know about 15k and max yield.

My hulks tend to be about 36k unbuffed and just above 40k with orca buffs. My Macks are >41k and >46.5k. All uniform EFT.

an orca can warp over 450au in three minutes. systems are rarely over 100. so that was grossly exaggerated, like a lot of ur other posts. if space is an issue u can always use more than one Orca or a freighter itself since they are supposed to be able to scoop now.

You forget not all systems have stations sometimes you have to go through multiple systems in order to get to a station. In addition a cargo orca align time is slower then a Charon freighter. depending on which direction your facing it may take you 2 minuets to simply allign.

FYI also station less systems are the best mining systems as most don't mine them out because it is "inconvienient".

I wouldn't have too much of an issue with this. But bear in mind that people will still complain because any cargohold still has a finite amount of space and requires some kind of logistics effort at some point.


So get someone (preferably a newbie) in an industrial ship to ferry ore back and forth from the Orca to the station? That way the Orca can stay to provide its bonuses and the barges don't need to use jetcans.

I wouldn't have too much of an issue with this. But bear in mind that people will still complain because any cargohold still has a finite amount of space and requires some kind of logistics effort at some point.


So get someone (preferably a newbie) in an industrial ship to ferry ore back and forth from the Orca to the station? That way the Orca can stay to provide its bonuses and the barges don't need to use jetcans.

Wrong. Hold large enough to hold only one cycle is broken. It needs to be at least 2, to make flipping viable without macro.

This has probably been said earlier, but I will say it again. The hulk needs a boost. it doesnt give the better yield compared to all the other barges that it deserves. Also the fact that you cannot run 2 cycles with T1 strip miners without the ore hold clogging up ure whole opreration. For all us relaxed miners out there it is very annoying.

Many miner players I've ever spoken to operate with an orca pilot, and at least 2 hulk pilots...sometimes three. This setup seems more common to me than 4 individual players doing a mining op.

probably cause they are doing it wrong. if u wanna dual screen mining, then a mack will reduce ur work load. if u want to get two friends together and mine efficiently, then hulks are good.

if hulk pilots use two hulks at once with the current ore hold, then increasing that ore hold will just try and make them use three. and then they'll complain that the hulk needs even MOAR ore hold to support their three hulks.

just use a mack like ur playstyle is suited to or get better at dual boxing

The problem with the Hulk is not the cargo space or the output. The problem is the lack of tank causing output to be dropped to avoid easy gank. When I build my setups I found the Skiff ended up with higher ore output because I had to spend too many modules on my Hulk putting in a bare bones tank.

What I'd like to see done is the Hulk have 20k EHP before any modules are put on the ship. Then you can max output and still not worry about a destroyer or two suicide ganking.

Given the hulk is designed as a fleet ship, why not just have the modules in your support orca and refit for tank using the orca once you see the destroyers on dscan?

You forget not all systems have stations sometimes you have to go through multiple systems in order to get to a station. In addition a cargo orca align time is slower then a Charon freighter. depending on which direction your facing it may take you 2 minuets to simply allign.

FYI also station less systems are the best mining systems as most don't mine them out because it is "inconvienient".

@ OP. I'm surprised you aren't asking for that refund for your T2 cargo rigs while you are at it.

The hulk is perfect where it is; the ore hold only fits one cycle because you're supposed to be dumping that ore to a hauler toon, aka another FLEET member. However the hulk is the only one of the three types that is so clearly defined in it's role.

I do believe the other barges/exhumers need a little tweaking. Mackinaw tanks seem a hair high. Skiffs can also hold multiple cycles of ore.

If the ships are supposed to fill a role, put them in that role; if they are supposed to have significant overlap, all three should overlap in some ways.

First off china is on its own server.
Secondly you get almost 4 min to move your ore over which is plenty of time

As for the Skiff being redundent...

the 25% extra omni resistance it was is the magic, with skill, and fitted for def, you could get a skiff with 85-90% omni ress, not to mention a huge shield, iwe been fiddling about with two warp core stabs also, good luck ganking one of those , before they warp out ...

its not about making money

Yes it is.
you need mega and zydrine? well it's quicker to mine more veldspar, sell the extra trit and just buy the mega and zyd. that's quicker, and cheaper than going all the way to null, getting jumped by two ships that both scram you, and end up in your pod back where you started.

Then again, if everyone were thinking like that, no one would ever get those minerals would they?

And here I were going arround thinking "one universe, one server"

Have you tried taking a dump in 4 minutes? or a cigarette without making ure lungs twitching in pain? Or having to go get something to eat without having ure strips failing?

The mackinaw is ok, its kinda useless for with the big hold when roid mining cuz if you are having the orca which most experienced miners would, they would go away for 5 min, come back and the roids have popped.

Then again, if you are mining in happy space where everyone else mine, ofc the roids are so crap after DT they pop after 1 cycle anyway, so its no point for you specialized miners that only mine 1 ore type to bother with the ore hold anyway.

If it only was couse of high sec, yes thats true, but for example, CAS is a very active npc corp, they ewen have a presence in null... either way, ore just dont magically apear from high to null, or vice versa, people been mentioing that skiff is redundant, i dont agree, those shields might be the extra that saves you before a swarm of CAS comes to save you... or giggle in chat as you get blown up, depending on what came... but fact is, each of those hummers have a role, and skiff is mining in danger !, and that is what it does best !... ie not redundant

Alright you got me, how you getting that much EHP from a hulk

First off i rarely insult people...

Redudant you say, lets asume there are two that jump me, and they have scrams enough fitted to nullify my two... so how long does it take them to burn down my skiffs 85-90% omni ress shields ?

If it only was couse of high sec, yes thats true, but for example, CAS is a very active npc corp, they ewen have a presence in null... either way, ore just dont magically apear from high to null, or vice versa, people been mentioing that skiff is redundant, i dont agree, those shields might be the extra that saves you before a swarm of CAS comes to save you... or giggle in chat as you get blown up, depending on what came... but fact is, each of those hummers have a role, and skiff is mining in danger !, and that is what it does best !... ie not redundant

ill write what i wrote earlier, everything gets blown up under certain circustances, skiff is harder to kill, anoyingly hard as some say rightly fitted, and with back up around, those shields might be the thing that saves you or not... Some pirates might ewen avoid a skiff, just couse they know it will take time, and while they fighting sometihng might come to attack them... thus i dont think skiff is redundant

...Or for that matter, have a GF or wife that loves to aggro you 5 minutes after you enter ure belt.

well yes, they would, because they're worth more isk/hour. the people who live in null sec would mine them as they do now, because they're worth the most isk/hour.

so yes, people would get those minerals even if they think like that. because newsflash; they do think like that. that's why there are MANY websites that exist to tell you which ore is most profitable to mine, and which areas they're found in, so you can separate them to find the most profitable ore in the area you are in.

And yet, you are saying that everyone should stay in high sec and mine trit the rest of theyre lives, since its much more profitable. But this isnt the topic of the thread either, so plz stick to the subject. Not something everyone knows.

So glad to know I'm not alone.

it is redundant. tank means nothing when you are 100% guaranteed to die once you're tackled in non-empire space, and the fact that the mackinaw deters pretty much all but those gankers who's mothers you have insulted in empire space.

the skiff doesn't "mine in dangerous areas" any better than any other exhumer. once you get tackled, you will die. it is that simple.

2 words.

Bait.

Ship.

Last time I checked there was a module called a cargo expander and a cargo optimization rig, i believe these will solve your "problem"

but you seriously don't deserve maximum yeild if you're not checking you ore hold every few minutes.

it's simple really, pay attention and get max yeild, don't play with full attention and you don't get full yeilds.

How many hulks are you trying to run? The hulks hold is fine as is and it works great for fleet tops.

CCP uses every possible marketing strategy to encourage EVE Players to own more than one account, and many player's do.
I don't think that I should be penalized for trying to single-box a multi-toon mining fleet without using macros!

you have two mins to cycle through your hulks and empty them, unless you're running an absurd amount of hulks then all you need to do is be on the ball a bit more.

alternatively, stagger your strips.

I'm 50 years old, my ability to "be on the ball a bit more" is not as good as it used to be

then stagger your strips. it'll give you more time before your lasers shut off due to a full cargo hold.

They're always staggered mate, that's not the total solution.

CCP needs to make the Hulk's ore hold just a little bit bigger, it should comfortably hold 2 full laser cycles without overflowing.
I'm trying to manage a mining fleet utilizing 3 accounts and I find it very easy to overflow the holds even when I have the Orca sitting within 2500 meters of my ships. I just recently added a 4th miner account to my collection, but i'm thinking of keeping the 3rd miner in a Mack just make things more managable. I really hate to see that hold overflowing very often because its an inefficient use of my laser cycles whenever that happens. I have to offload the ore every 122 secs approximately and that takes a lot of attention, after 4 minutes my holds will be overflowing.

IMHO the status quo just encourages people to use macros, which is something I try to do without.

And i'm not asking for the ability to AFK mine here, I just want the system to be a little more forgiving.

u are precisely the guy im talking about. u should be using macks for ur triple boxing, or u need to get better with ur triple boxing, one of the two.

the hulk is not meant for multi boxing. use a mack, even if its just one to go along side the hulk or make some friends. why do u think u never have to compromise and can have max everything?!

so you're telling some one to NOT use the "fleet ship" in a fleet?

really?

A fleet should be a gathering of players, not you and your alts.

Really.

so we're relegating the hulk to "only to be used by players with one account, in a fleet where they're effectively being slaves"?

if that's so then the rebalance failed even more horribly than i initially thought.

I'll be straight up on this -- I mine Grav sites in a WH where the bigger rocks can literally last for hours (this is also true for Null Sec Grav sites). No one in their right mind would use only 1 boosted hulk (in a fleet or not). These sites are typically run by 5, 10, 20+ hulks at a time -- and usually under the control of 1, 2, or 5 people (some times more).

My setup: 6 - 8 hulks (T2 strips & T2 crystals), a Maxed Rorqual booster. My Hulk cycles approx every 120s - with no pilot implants.

This pulls in ~5.5k m3 Ore every 2 minutes - that means I drop around 45k m3 of Ore every 2 minutes filling that very small Orca about every 8 minutes.

If you jet can mine, this means that you are _constantly_ moving between the hulks to empty Ore holds. Jet a can, open it, fill it, jet, open, fill (repeat ....). Not to mention the need to monitor intel channels, dscan and the like.

The hulk might be "king of yield", but it is a PAIN to not have 2 fully boosted t2 cycles worth a storage. This is a game, not a job!


FWIW - I filled ~14 enormous freight containers in a grav site lastnight. At 250k m3 storage / container, it was much easier than jet-can mining. I pulled in ~3.5M m3 of Ore (6 hulks) in 4.5 hours -- and didn't move once!! MUCH easier.

after reading your post, the point of it eludes me. did you even have a point?

i had buried it .. not thinking good today.

*shrug* only if you're running 8 hulks without a multibox program.

it's no worse than ratting isk/hour dropping in efficiency after having a few extra accounts (i forget how many).

there are many ways around the issue; stop trying to be the octopus man, get a multibox program, drop some accounts.
honestly it really isn't that big of a deal. if you stagger your strips you get 2.5 mins to cycle through your hulks and dump your ore.

there are far more important things that need fixing with the hulk, and mining ships in general than "i can't multibox 8 hulks at once". orca could do with some more ore bay capacity though, it looks like a sick joke next to the mackinaw.

so you're telling some one to NOT use the "fleet ship" in a fleet?

really?

I'll be straight up on this -- I mine Grav sites in a WH where the bigger rocks can literally last for hours (this is also true for Null Sec Grav sites). No one in their right mind would use only 1 boosted hulk (in a fleet or not). These sites are typically run by 5, 10, 20+ hulks at a time -- and usually under the control of 1, 2, or 5 people (some times more).

My setup: 6 - 8 hulks (T2 strips & T2 crystals), a Maxed Rorqual booster. My Hulk cycles approx every 120s - with no pilot implants.

This pulls in ~5.5k m3 Ore every 2 minutes - that means I drop around 45k m3 of Ore every 2 minutes filling that very small Orca about every 8 minutes.

If you jet can mine, this means that you are _constantly_ moving between the hulks to empty Ore holds. Jet a can, open it, fill it, jet, open, fill (repeat ....). Not to mention the need to monitor intel channels, dscan and the like.

The hulk might be "king of yield", but it is a PAIN to not have 2 fully boosted t2 cycles worth a storage. This is a game, not a job!


FWIW - I filled ~14 enormous freight containers in a grav site lastnight. At 250k m3 storage / container, it was much easier than jet-can mining. I pulled in ~3.5M m3 of Ore (6 hulks) in 4.5 hours -- and didn't move once!! MUCH easier.

would using more than one orca help? theres nothing that says u must only use one orca per fleet.

a freighter would help him more than an orca would, since they can now take things from the orca's fleet hangar... he just needs to the the hulks to dump to the orca, then the freighter to scoop from the orca.

LOL .. I didn't mean to make anyone think that I don't know how to run a mining op.

In the case I exampled, I dumped to pre-placed enormous freight containers (250k m3 each). When enough were full, one of the hulk pilots left his Hulk duties for 2 cycles (not a big deal) to grab the freighter for a couple of loads back to the POS. Once that was done,

Personally, I find dropping ore to an Orca laborious -- in High-sec, maybe that's the way to do it. In Null & WH's, getting caught in a belt / grav site is a far bigger problem than worrying about whether or not you can dump your Ore to that new can / container / orca / rorqual - so having extra space for that 2nd strip cycle is a big deal.

if you find dropping ore in to an orca laborious then you find dropping it in to a container laborious too. just because you dropped a can instead of using the orca doesn't mean unloading a hulk is any different, still dragging and dropping.

The tiericide was fine -- it just needs some fine tuning. Asking for enough Ore hold for 2 maxed cycles on the Covetor/Hulk is not much when the Mack has a 35k hold -- enough for up to 45 minutes of boosted mining.

i think it is when ppl just want it so they can multi-box better. what happens when the extra ore hold allows everyone to easily run the amount of hulks they do now? they'll try to add one extra hulk to their one-man fleet and then complain that the hulk needs to hold three full cycles.

my answer is still - nope. if ur struggling, swap one hulk for a mack or get better at multiboxing.

the intended roles of the barges was one for dangerous space, one for solo mining and one for fleet mining.

now the reason that the mack and rettie are used so much more than the others is not because of imbalance, but because the vast, vast, majority of miners are solo miners. so the mack suits the vast majority of players. this is pretty evident by most fleets being populated by hulks, and most loners using macks.

[snip]

the only issue with the new barges is that the skiff and procurer are lacking in use.

true most miners are solo miners, but just look at the stats. the hulk has the lowest of TWO stats (cargo and tank) the mackinaw has the lowest of NONE of the stats. you can't deny the imbalance there.

i agree that the skiff/proc lack a use, they were designed for a niche that simply doesn't exist.

For all us relaxed miners out there it is very annoying.

Only one thing should happen to the Hulk:
The exhumer bonus it has should also apply to drones.

Then we need medium mining drones.

GDR :D

CCP must take the multi-boxer's point of view into consideration as they do everything to encourage multi-boxing.

If you spent over 20 hours a week mining in a Hulk (or 2 or 3 Hulks) then you'd better understand the concern about the ore hold.

If there's enough support for it, CCP may or may not be willing to change this, but why argue against something that would improve the game for a lot of people?

CCP must take the multi-boxer's point of view into consideration as they do everything to encourage multi-boxing.

If you spent over 20 hours a week mining in a Hulk (or 2 or 3 Hulks) then you'd better understand the concern about the ore hold.

If there's enough support for it, CCP may or may not be willing to change this, but why argue against something that would improve the game for a lot of people?

No they don't, this is a Massive Multiplayer Online Game. If yo chose to play alone fine but done ever expect them to cater to an antisocial play style.

No they don't, this is a Massive Multiplayer Online Game. If yo chose to play alone fine but done ever expect them to cater to an antisocial play style.

or they could just balance the exhumers properly to begin with?

and we have medium mining drones, they're called harvester mining drones and they suck more than a cheap hooker.

Mining is a legitimate play style until CCP removes it from the game - as is PvE, Exploration, POS Management, PvP, etc.. etc... Whether or not someone decides they want to mine solo (either single ship or via multi-boxing), is entirely up to them, not you and not me...

Technically, you could call any type of MMO activity "anti-social" .. In fact, let's call anything that doesn't fit your specific version of "Massive Multiplayer Online" anti-social. There's nothing in the MMO name that somehow requires you to be social.

Harden up and get over the fact that there are people that enjoy doing what you may not like to do. There are plenty of other games out there you can go run to.