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Chikote
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Posted - 2005.06.28 21:35:00 -
[1]
From my previous topic on which is the best BS, no one ever give good comment on Caldari BS at all. Do they really suck that bad?
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2005.06.28 21:38:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Chikote
From my previous topic on which is the best BS, no one ever give good comment on Caldari BS at all. Do they really suck that bad?
tbh, the raven has been one of the best PvP ships for quite a while. The scorp one of the best EW ships (the best in fact).
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Marruni
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Posted - 2005.06.28 21:39:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Chikote
From my previous topic on which is the best BS, no one ever give good comment on Caldari BS at all. Do they really suck that bad?
Are you a real character or just a alt.. or just plain dumb..
Caldari BS does not suck
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Alekzander
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Posted - 2005.06.28 21:44:00 -
[4]
They will become more difficult to use after the missile nerf though, at least till all those shiny new missile skills get trained.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.06.28 21:45:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Chikote
From my previous topic on which is the best BS, no one ever give good comment on Caldari BS at all. Do they really suck that bad?
......
Raven > ANY SHIP IN GAME after patch, including cruisers and frigates
Scorpion is overpowered with jamming. 100% EW range? 
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2005.06.28 22:05:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 28/06/2005 22:09:38
Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 28/06/2005 22:07:57
Originally by: Selim
Raven > ANY SHIP IN GAME after patch, including cruisers and frigates
Scorpion is overpowered with jamming. 100% EW range?
...right...
Anyway, the Raven will still be a great BS vs. BS ship, especially since it will be doing a little more damage with Warhead Upgrades, and will use less cap for shield tanking with Shield Compensation. It's basically able to beat anything that's not tanked if you have the skills (both sp and player). It will not be as good versus small ships, though we'll have to wait and see what the numbers are with skills trained. However, I know personally I'm doing very little damage versus frigates and cruisers with the new skills at lvl 3 on SiSi. Therefore, I'm thinking expert Raven pilots should rely on Nosferatu and maybe even small turrets (maybe?) to defend themselves versus smaller ships.
The Scorpion is not necessarily overpowered. Remember that EW completely relies on probability now, and that EW won't always work because computers like to say: "Mmm, 50% chance, okay: yes, yes, yes, yes, no" or "no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no" and once you're dead, "yes." The ship is also fairly easy to take out, because if it's setup for EW it won't be tanking.
(edit: oddly behaving censorship thingy made me edit this post :\)
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.06.28 22:13:00 -
[7]
You seriously dont know?
Any no skilled noob can hop into a raven these days and be pretty effective. That will hopefully change with the patch.
On the subject of a scorpion. If you fill the mids with EW you have lows to armour tank
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.06.28 22:22:00 -
[8]
Kyoko, what about the fact that the scorpion has DOUBLE the range of EW of any other ship, making EW on any ship besides a scorpion or blackbird pretty much pointless.
Maybe if they increased EW base range and made the scorp's bonus only 50% so that it had the same range as now but others wouldn't be crap with it.
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Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2005.06.28 22:34:00 -
[9]
Caldari BS as it currently stands:
Raven: NPCing, 1v1s at close range
any other situation, you're missiles simply wont hit before the target legs it, or is already dead.
Scorp: EW platform. 1 trick pony. Primary target in all fleet battles. Someone replaced the tritanium with tinfoil.
Sel: I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest you dont pilot Caldari BS that often, no offense ok?
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Chikote
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Posted - 2005.06.28 22:46:00 -
[10]
Well the reason of me asking is because I am still deciding on whether to go for Apoc or stick to my race's selection of BS.
I still have time to change to Amarr BS but will have to train up Amarr Frigate from Level 0 to Level 4 and train Laser base skill.
So what you guys think? Stay with Caldari's or change while I still can ;)?
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.06.28 22:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gunstar Zero
Caldari BS as it currently stands:
Raven: NPCing, 1v1s at close range
any other situation, you're missiles simply wont hit before the target legs it, or is already dead.
Scorp: EW platform. 1 trick pony. Primary target in all fleet battles. Someone replaced the tritanium with tinfoil.
Sel: I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest you dont pilot Caldari BS that often, no offense ok?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't been on the test server. Raven completely obliterates any other battleship with cruise missiles, while having an excellent tank.
I wouldn't be complaining about the scorp if other ships weren't HALF as effective as the scorpion at EW. You'd think a 5% strength bonus and 8 midslots for EW would be enough, but it had to get twice as much range as anyone else too.
Anyway I'd not be as ****ed off about Caldari BS if they werent the only ships that could shield tank decently. Currently the raven is the only battleship that can shield tank good, and everyone who says shield tanking is good only looks at the raven, not every other ship in game. Take a look at some of the threads here, people are saying shield tanking is overpowered because of the raven . One ship is holding back all other shield ships in game.
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Helena Alucard
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Posted - 2005.06.28 22:54:00 -
[12]
well heres the deal with caldari bs and frankly all Caldari ships period. To be effectively used they need to be in a team. People look down on Caldari ships individually for pvp. Scorps have the worst damage of any BS but they are great ewar plateforms.
Ravens have a decent sheild tank and do nice amounts of damage but this is at short range. Ravens are the ONLY bs i will travel through 0.0 space in without mounting a mwd,full travel kit and the best BM'S in Eve. Why? Cuz well the Raven has fof crusie missles. load a full rack of seige with them and your set.
95% of most ganksquads use Elite crusiers and frigs and a few BS (1-2). So set up to tank like a mofo and go about ur way. If you encounter a Ganksquad don't fret just turn on ur FOFs and watch all the small ships atomise. Now when the heavies start laying in on you hopefully you will have ur tank up.I keep my hardeners running all the time and have a set mark for sheild HP and cap. I constantly am turing off the booster when my cap is getting dangerously low and letting my cap booster bring it back up to reengage it. Most of my sheild tanks use 2 (faction) cap boosters and 2-3 PDU2's,The rest of my lows are filled with whatever variation of B/C I can find.
Now with a raven you really have to pick your fights, you can't just rush in. Quite frequently you will be warping to a covert ops ship to get into range of ur enemy. Also if your in say Torrinos and theres a enemy camp on the otherside of the Ec gate and you got a bunch of peeps in EC needing to get out. Sit on top of the gate and wait on ts till the enemy fleet closes into leave from Ec to Torrinos. By the time you load they will be around 10-15km from the gate with their bs. Befor you jump tho make sure you have at least 4 of your 6 seige loaded with torps and the rest with fof crusie. Engage the crusie when you start taking damage from the tacklers and smallships and pick the fatest bs you can find and open up with torps.
Now Temps are the best BS for breaking tanks but you can tank them at under 30km. And remember with a raven the closer you get the more damage you can do.
So at this point you have only two real threats, Domis and Armor tanked Apocs. The Domis will kill ur cap and pick you apart with drones and the Apoc will just out tank you. If you have good skills everything else is dog meat if you can get within 30km of them.
Thats how things are now. After patch we will see how things will be.
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Helena Alucard
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:01:00 -
[13]
Selim I respect you and your addvice but look what CCP did to the Brutix when Exo hit,it was the best BC on the test server and when Exodus came it was a complete laughing stock and for as nice as a raven might be on Test server remember one profound thing ITS A DAMN TEST SERVER!
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Gamer4liff
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:06:00 -
[14]
caldari BS are about so seriously suck more then a sherryl crow concert at PvE. Fleet battle wise they will be very good anti BS ships.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:11:00 -
[15]
Helena, the devs stated that all the changes are now final. The patch is right now in the final, bugfixing phase.
(And believe me, its pretty damn buggy)
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:17:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Antic on 28/06/2005 23:21:18
you are wrong selim. The patch is at FEATURE LOCK. wich means they dont add new content. That however dosnt mean that they cant tweak whats already in there untill the new Quality asurance team is happy with it. Oveur has cleared this up once already. So if they find anything out of whack they surely will tweak the numbers.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=193120&page=2
for the doubters.
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:18:00 -
[17]
Im going to give you a straight answer m8 stick with caldari ships sure after the patch you will have to train some extra missile skills but thats no big deal to a new guy like you and the damage on sisi with missiles are at least comparable with guns. Before the patch you could easily outdamage a gun early on, now tho missiles work right and they are faster to hit something  .
I will note there are a lot of people around who love to shout down the new missile systems Problem is they havent even tried the new skills on the test server. I remember one example where a guy said his raven with torps only did 0.7 damage against an interceptor that was not moving, what he didnt mention was his torp skill was at 3 and he had NONE of the new skills trained at all also the ship he was flying i was told was moving diagnally to it which makes it hard to hit things anyway
So my advice stick with missiles for a few months and see how it goes besides if missiles turn out to suck the devs will patch it again so it works better.
My next ship im getting is a caracell and a raven so im not worried about the skills
Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!! |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Selim
Helena, the devs stated that all the changes are now final. The patch is right now in the final, bugfixing phase.
(And believe me, its pretty damn buggy)
No, its feature locked, which means that no new features will be added, existing features could be refined or tossed though. Big distinction.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Selim
Helena, the devs stated that all the changes are now final. The patch is right now in the final, bugfixing phase.
(And believe me, its pretty damn buggy)
No, its feature locked, which means that no new features will be added, existing features could be refined or tossed though. Big distinction.
my mistake 
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Helena Alucard
Selim I respect you and your addvice but look what CCP did to the Brutix when Exo hit,it was the best BC on the test server and when Exodus came it was a complete laughing stock and for as nice as a raven might be on Test server remember one profound thing ITS A DAMN TEST SERVER!
To be fare the saying the brutix BATTLECRUISER didnt suck before exodus for one BIG reason
It didnt exist before Exodus part of exodus was to introduce BATTLECRUISERS
Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!! |
Antic
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cosmic Dragon
Originally by: Helena Alucard
Selim I respect you and your addvice but look what CCP did to the Brutix when Exo hit,it was the best BC on the test server and when Exodus came it was a complete laughing stock and for as nice as a raven might be on Test server remember one profound thing ITS A DAMN TEST SERVER!
To be fare the saying the brutix BATTLECRUISER didnt suck before exodus for one BIG reason
It didnt exist before Exodus part of exodus was to introduce BATTLECRUISERS
he means the exodus betatest.
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Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:29:00 -
[22]
First Helena is my alt (I hate the character select tab).
Second on the Exo test server the Brutix was able to fit so much easier and well it was just infinetly better and when BC were introduced everyone used all the other bc,primarily Ferox and Cyclone cuz then you were still able to dual oversize Ab ur ship. When that nerf came everyone switch to prophecy's and ferox's.
Undisputed Lord Of The Forums!!!
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) Pleas help me Kill the bunny so I
can dominate the world |
Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.06.28 23:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lucian Alucard
First Helena is my alt (I hate the character select tab).
Second on the Exo test server the Brutix was able to fit so much easier and well it was just infinetly better and when BC were introduced everyone used all the other bc,primarily Ferox and Cyclone cuz then you were still able to dual oversize Ab ur ship. When that nerf came everyone switch to prophecy's and ferox's.
Ahh i see now my mistake [ shame about the brutix nice looking ship tho]
Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!! |
Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2005.06.29 12:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Selim
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't been on the test server. Raven completely obliterates any other battleship with cruise missiles, while having an excellent tank.
I wouldn't be complaining about the scorp if other ships weren't HALF as effective as the scorpion at EW. You'd think a 5% strength bonus and 8 midslots for EW would be enough, but it had to get twice as much range as anyone else too.
Anyway I'd not be as ****ed off about Caldari BS if they werent the only ships that could shield tank decently. Currently the raven is the only battleship that can shield tank good, and everyone who says shield tanking is good only looks at the raven, not every other ship in game. Take a look at some of the threads here, people are saying shield tanking is overpowered because of the raven . One ship is holding back all other shield ships in game.
I do visit the test server from time to time, frankly it's unrealistic. Combat situations on the test server are rarely mirrored on TQ.
Ravens do not completely obliterate other BS. The DOT is poor and there's a significant delay before anything actually hits - whilst all the time the other ship can deal damage.
Why shouldnt the scorp be good at EW - it's pretty much useless for anything else. Any other BS has other tricks up it's sleeve.
As for shield tanking on other ships, I dont disagree that it's weak, but that's no reason to nerf the Raven.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.06.29 12:46:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Selim on 29/06/2005 12:47:14
Well actually a cruise launcher on a raven will do about the same damage as a tachyon with multifrequency. Except the cruise launcher will be doing it at 100km. It doesnt matter if it takes 10 seconds to go that far because you'll make up the damage in, what... another 10 seconds? Besides the damage delay is because missiles always hit.
And if you're saying the damage delay is unfair because the target always dies before the missiles reach your target... well thats because of ganking, not because missiles suck. Just get closer to your target. You know, ravens can fit MWD's too.
Back to the scorp, I'm fine with it being good at EW... but why exactly should it go 100% further than anyone else? I'd be fine if EW base range was increased and BB/scorp bonus decreased to 10% per level so that the same range is gotten for the scorp/BB, but slightly better for everyone else.
Even if it didnt have a range advantage it would still be the best EW ship. Nobody complained about the scorp not being able to EW better than others before the EW overhaul, and it didnt have any EW bonuses then, just 8 midslots. I don't think the scorpion would be at ANY risk of being useless if other ships could actually use EW at a reasonable range.
edit: shield tanking: yes, it is a reason. because boosting shield tanking would definitely overpower the raven. thus the raven needs to be nerfed before it gets boosted (essentially the raven's net usefulness would not change).
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Tar om
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Posted - 2005.06.29 12:55:00 -
[26]
Well, just to put something in from the other side...
I've trained all gunnery skills for Large Projectile to 5 apart from Large Spec which is 4. I've also trained Min BS5
"À20 Gunnery skills trained, for a total of 10,664,158 skillPoints."
I set up a phoon with 1400IIs, 3 tracking comp2s, 3 Gyros2s and was getting structure hits of 550 max.
Now compare this with my seige launchers which were getting the same damage:
À8 Missile Launcher Operation skills trained, for a total of 1,116,095 skillPoints.
Now I realise that a Tempest would give me more damage and that I can hit from range instantly but when you compare the extreme vulnerability of my ship to anything closer than 60km and that I have to sacrifice ALL my tank to get this damage then I think you realise that something had to be done to missiles in General and the Raven in particular.
The Raven in its current form did not have to compromise, it tanked extremely well and developed very good damage against all targets. Just to get close to its damage output, everyone else had to go to full gank setups which made them extremely vulnerable.
Tar om
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.29 13:32:00 -
[27]
raven is so completely overpowered in the new patch it isnt even funny. On sisi a gank raven with some of the new missile skills can wtfpwn 2 other BS 
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Alexander Reikson
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Posted - 2005.06.29 13:39:00 -
[28]
After seeing the title of this topic we can say that original poster is a noob or an idiot.
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F'narr
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Posted - 2005.06.29 13:51:00 -
[29]
Could the Ravens missile ability be the very reason the scorpion has such good EW range. There would be no point in having a huge standoff abillity if your EW assets had to sit out in the open between you and your target.
just my thoughts
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.06.29 14:40:00 -
[30]
Ravens are going to be so overpowered after the patch it's pathetic. Not only can they fit omgwtfbbq damage with a kickass shieldtank, they can do it with no cap (other than shieldtanking).
Imagine a gankageddon that can tank like an Apoc for short periods. Oh yea, and it doesnt need cap to fire. And you can't jam or dampen it. Yea, it's gonna be that bad.
Cruise launchers have a damage equivalent to a tachy with multifreq. And they can tank. And cruise now do 8km/s. And you cant jam or dampen them. And nos reduces thier tanking, but not thier damage.
If it's not adjusted, *EVERYONE* who flies a bs in battle will be using a Raven. Period. It will be so overpowered it will be stupid not to. I hate the looks of the Raven, and have a ton of skills in lasers, but will be flying one as well.
On the other hand, I am sure that they won't fix the Raven (the problem). I am sure it will be like the pulse fix and just break all the shieldtanking so the raven is balanced and all the Minmatar ships will be cannonfodder.
Nyxus
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.06.29 14:48:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Nyxus
Ravens are going to be so overpowered after the patch it's pathetic. Not only can they fit omgwtfbbq damage with a kickass shieldtank, they can do it with no cap (other than shieldtanking).
Imagine a gankageddon that can tank like an Apoc for short periods. Oh yea, and it doesnt need cap to fire. And you can't jam or dampen it. Yea, it's gonna be that bad.
Cruise launchers have a damage equivalent to a tachy with multifreq. And they can tank. And cruise now do 8km/s. And you cant jam or dampen them. And nos reduces thier tanking, but not thier damage.
If it's not adjusted, *EVERYONE* who flies a bs in battle will be using a Raven. Period. It will be so overpowered it will be stupid not to. I hate the looks of the Raven, and have a ton of skills in lasers, but will be flying one as well.
On the other hand, I am sure that they won't fix the Raven (the problem). I am sure it will be like the pulse fix and just break all the shieldtanking so the raven is balanced and all the Minmatar ships will be cannonfodder.
Nyxus
why cant you jamm it?
MAXSuicide > I LOVE U SIIM
MAXSuicide > lets go outback for a quicky
siim > that was so desperate attempt
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.29 14:54:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Bad'Boy
why cant you jamm it?
Cause it can just use FoFs which do almost as much damage as the cruise it would normally be using?
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.06.29 14:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: Bad'Boy
why cant you jamm it?
Cause it can just use FoFs which do almost as much damage as the cruise it would normally be using?
thats why you got drones
MAXSuicide > I LOVE U SIIM
MAXSuicide > lets go outback for a quicky
siim > that was so desperate attempt
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.06.29 15:07:00 -
[34]
and you forget that you can fit overdrives and ab to drasticaly cut the damage a raven can dish out. also the damage isnt instant.
However my main gripes isnt PvP. Its PvE. Due to the extreme speeds even battleships fly by there it has become near impossible to do proper PvE even with the new missile skills. They not only fly fast to cut the damage dealt to them, many of them can permatank your damage output.
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Kashre
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Posted - 2005.06.29 15:07:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Selim
Kyoko, what about the fact that the scorpion has DOUBLE the range of EW of any other ship, making EW on any ship besides a scorpion or blackbird pretty much pointless.
Maybe if they increased EW base range and made the scorp's bonus only 50% so that it had the same range as now but others wouldn't be crap with it.
Man why do people keep saying this? its not like no one ever gets into a fight at 60km or less (optimum for racial jammers without ship bonuses but including long range jamming 4).
Jammers rock on any ship when you have a little intel on what you're facing.
+++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.06.29 15:09:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Nyxus
Ravens are going to be so overpowered after the patch it's pathetic. Not only can they fit omgwtfbbq damage with a kickass shieldtank, they can do it with no cap (other than shieldtanking).
Imagine a gankageddon that can tank like an Apoc for short periods. Oh yea, and it doesnt need cap to fire. And you can't jam or dampen it. Yea, it's gonna be that bad.
Cruise launchers have a damage equivalent to a tachy with multifreq. And they can tank. And cruise now do 8km/s. And you cant jam or dampen them. And nos reduces thier tanking, but not thier damage.
If it's not adjusted, *EVERYONE* who flies a bs in battle will be using a Raven. Period. It will be so overpowered it will be stupid not to. I hate the looks of the Raven, and have a ton of skills in lasers, but will be flying one as well.
On the other hand, I am sure that they won't fix the Raven (the problem). I am sure it will be like the pulse fix and just break all the shieldtanking so the raven is balanced and all the Minmatar ships will be cannonfodder.
Nyxus
Well as most of the turret users said when the changes started...adapt...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.06.29 15:34:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Antic
and you forget that you can fit overdrives and ab to drasticaly cut the damage a raven can dish out. also the damage isnt instant.
However my main gripes isnt PvP. Its PvE. Due to the extreme speeds even battleships fly by there it has become near impossible to do proper PvE even with the new missile skills. They not only fly fast to cut the damage dealt to them, many of them can permatank your damage output.
no1 (normaly) fit overdrive on BS, and AB is rare 2
MAXSuicide > I LOVE U SIIM
MAXSuicide > lets go outback for a quicky
siim > that was so desperate attempt
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.29 22:48:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Selim
Originally by: Chikote
From my previous topic on which is the best BS, no one ever give good comment on Caldari BS at all. Do they really suck that bad?
......
Raven > ANY SHIP IN GAME after patch, including cruisers and frigates
Scorpion is overpowered with jamming. 100% EW range?
LMAO. I'm gonna go with a hunch and say you haven't been onto the test server?
I'M SICK AND TIRED OF THE IDIOTS WHO LOOK AT TOMBS THREAD AND ALL THEY SEE IS THE MISSILE SPEED INCREASE, AND DON'T HAVE A CLUE HOW THE NEW MISSILE SYSTEM WORKS.
IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ON THE TEST SERVER AND TRIED IT FOR YOURSELF, DON'T POST ABOUT IT!
/end rant
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Bleakheart
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Posted - 2005.06.29 23:37:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Nyxus
Ravens are going to be so overpowered after the patch it's pathetic. Not only can they fit omgwtfbbq damage with a kickass shieldtank, they can do it with no cap (other than shieldtanking).
Imagine a gankageddon that can tank like an Apoc for short periods. Oh yea, and it doesnt need cap to fire. And you can't jam or dampen it. Yea, it's gonna be that bad.
Cruise launchers have a damage equivalent to a tachy with multifreq. And they can tank. And cruise now do 8km/s. And you cant jam or dampen them. And nos reduces thier tanking, but not thier damage.
If it's not adjusted, *EVERYONE* who flies a bs in battle will be using a Raven. Period. It will be so overpowered it will be stupid not to. I hate the looks of the Raven, and have a ton of skills in lasers, but will be flying one as well.
On the other hand, I am sure that they won't fix the Raven (the problem). I am sure it will be like the pulse fix and just break all the shieldtanking so the raven is balanced and all the Minmatar ships will be cannonfodder.
Nyxus
Wow, I've had my clueless days, but this has got to take the cake.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.29 23:39:00 -
[40]
I know what you mean. I've seen so many ignorant posts about missiles after the patch that I think I'm starting to go crazy. 
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.06.29 23:43:00 -
[41]
Noobs will be Noobs. Nothing to see here.
~Sobe |
Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2005.06.29 23:53:00 -
[42]
Personally I think they should nerf the range of FOF's and then Jamming a raven is plausible. Now Ravens won't be able to out damage temps or megathrons but they will do more if not the same damage as apocs with beams, I think this is ok simply cuz they are the same ship but just reversed as far as turrets to missles go. For a missle boat te raven is the zeinith and for a turret boat the Apoc can tank and do damage the same time and the raven does the same. So I see no problem now the Apoc has always lasted longer as far as tanking so I really don't see the problem and the Megathron with Neuts up close will pwn a crusie raven up close most likely. And the Tempest will still be able to kill a Raven at range if the the raven has ANY form of tank. So ummmmmmm.....I really don't see the problem seeing as the only armor tanker I can beat with a raven is a Phoon and thats mainly cuz of the phoons low dps.
Undisputed Lord Of The Forums!!!
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) Pleas help me Kill the bunny so I
can dominate the world |
BlueSmok
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Posted - 2005.06.30 03:57:00 -
[43]
OMG is it really true that missles will be able to warp to your target up to 1au away? and will have their own personal cloaking device so you don't know they're there till you get podded?? ON NOES!
*Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
Bene Gesserit Coda |
Aion Amarra
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:21:00 -
[44]
'sides I guess you could counter any FoFs easily if it isn't a 1on1. Tried having an inty orbit the Raven at close range? All the FoF will target the inty and poof almost harmlessy, while you can keep hitting the Raven with full force. Seriously. Where's the problem?
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:46:00 -
[45]
Yeah, cause FoF Cruise do TONS of damage to Inties on Test.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Yeah, cause FoF Cruise do TONS of damage to Inties on Test.
more than the 0 damage that turret BS do when jammed.
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Hamurabi
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:38:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tar om
Well, just to put something in from the other side...
I've trained all gunnery skills for Large Projectile to 5 apart from Large Spec which is 4. I've also trained Min BS5
"À20 Gunnery skills trained, for a total of 10,664,158 skillPoints."
I set up a phoon with 1400IIs, 3 tracking comp2s, 3 Gyros2s and was getting structure hits of 550 max.
Now compare this with my seige launchers which were getting the same damage:
À8 Missile Launcher Operation skills trained, for a total of 1,116,095 skillPoints.
Now I realise that a Tempest would give me more damage and that I can hit from range instantly but when you compare the extreme vulnerability of my ship to anything closer than 60km and that I have to sacrifice ALL my tank to get this damage then I think you realise that something had to be done to missiles in General and the Raven in particular.
The Raven in its current form did not have to compromise, it tanked extremely well and developed very good damage against all targets. Just to get close to its damage output, everyone else had to go to full gank setups which made them extremely vulnerable.
Tar om
I don't dispute the facts of anything you say, but i do wonder why you arwe using a typhoon in your example instead of a tempest, comparing a level 1 BS to a level 2 BS seems to be weighing the comparison in your favor to make a point...
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Hamurabi
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:40:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Nyxus
Ravens are going to be so overpowered after the patch it's pathetic. Not only can they fit omgwtfbbq damage with a kickass shieldtank, they can do it with no cap (other than shieldtanking).
Imagine a gankageddon that can tank like an Apoc for short periods. Oh yea, and it doesnt need cap to fire. And you can't jam or dampen it. Yea, it's gonna be that bad.
Cruise launchers have a damage equivalent to a tachy with multifreq. And they can tank. And cruise now do 8km/s. And you cant jam or dampen them. And nos reduces thier tanking, but not thier damage.
If it's not adjusted, *EVERYONE* who flies a bs in battle will be using a Raven. Period. It will be so overpowered it will be stupid not to. I hate the looks of the Raven, and have a ton of skills in lasers, but will be flying one as well.
On the other hand, I am sure that they won't fix the Raven (the problem). I am sure it will be like the pulse fix and just break all the shieldtanking so the raven is balanced and all the Minmatar ships will be cannonfodder.
Nyxus
I've been jammed in a Raven, this statement is just nottrue, also sounds abit like.. "the grass is always greener"
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:43:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Hamurabi
Originally by: Nyxus
Ravens are going to be so overpowered after the patch it's pathetic. Not only can they fit omgwtfbbq damage with a kickass shieldtank, they can do it with no cap (other than shieldtanking).
Imagine a gankageddon that can tank like an Apoc for short periods. Oh yea, and it doesnt need cap to fire. And you can't jam or dampen it. Yea, it's gonna be that bad.
Cruise launchers have a damage equivalent to a tachy with multifreq. And they can tank. And cruise now do 8km/s. And you cant jam or dampen them. And nos reduces thier tanking, but not thier damage.
If it's not adjusted, *EVERYONE* who flies a bs in battle will be using a Raven. Period. It will be so overpowered it will be stupid not to. I hate the looks of the Raven, and have a ton of skills in lasers, but will be flying one as well.
On the other hand, I am sure that they won't fix the Raven (the problem). I am sure it will be like the pulse fix and just break all the shieldtanking so the raven is balanced and all the Minmatar ships will be cannonfodder.
Nyxus
I've been jammed in a Raven, this statement is just nottrue, also sounds abit like.. "the grass is always greener"
...you can still shoot while jammed in a raven. You cant in any other ship.
read the fcking thread before u respond or at least have some basic knowledge ffs.
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:02:00 -
[50]
Quote:
I've been jammed in a Raven, this statement is just nottrue, also sounds abit like.. "the grass is always greener"
Sounds to me like you are a pve Agent nub who doesn't fly anything other than a Raven.
I fly turrets. I also fly Caldari BS. What other BS can undock from a station, spam fof and kill things, then dock without any aggression timer being a problem? What other battleship can hit any other, at any distance, for max damage every time? (perhaps tweaked with the missile patch, but not by much). What other ship is as absurdly easy to fit with the heaviest weapons and maintain a good shieldtank? (psst....I will give you a clue....it's not Minmatar or a Gallente ship)).
It takes ONE midslot to make a turret battleship useless. Enter the Tracking Disruptor and the Jammer. Both can be used anywhere at 50km range, easily. Oh yes, if you feel like using 2 mids dampeners will be sure to make any turret ship cry. Smaller ships can just orbit without a mwd to get almost the same effect. Now look at the counter to missiles. Both options take a HIGH SLOT (which is just huge). One is suicide in empire and doesnt work near gates/stations. Yea great. The other needs at least 2 slots to be effective (2 rocket launchers to counter torps), and doesnt work worth a hoot on torps. In addition, with the new missile speed boost they become even less effective.
A Raven can now do multifreq tachy damage at 100km. Cruise now travel 8km/s, dont whine to me about "delay for damage". In addition to doing massive damage at any range, the raven can fit the second best tank in game while still mounting bcu or a full rack of stabbies down low, and can't be shut down either through jamming, dampening, or nos/neuts. Did I mention that they are insanely hard to jam anyway?
Gee......I wonder what ship I will see *everywhere* for fighting bs's after the patch? The good news is that I won't have to fly the scorp anymore as everyone will be in a Raven.
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:15:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Nyxus
What other battleship can hit any other, at any distance, for max damage every time?
You're assuming that snipers don't bug out before the missile hits, and probably also that there is no resistances involved in calculating the damage.
Originally by: Nyxus
What other ship is as absurdly easy to fit with the heaviest weapons and maintain a good shieldtank?
Amarr aren't too bad at damage while tanking either.
Originally by: Nyxus
It takes ONE midslot to make a turret battleship useless. Enter the Tracking Disruptor and the Jammer. Both can be used anywhere at 50km range, easily. Oh yes, if you feel like using 2 mids dampeners will be sure to make any turret ship cry.
You're saying this like only turret ships are affected. All ships are affected by damps and jammers.
Originally by: Nyxus
In addition, with the new missile speed boost they become even less effective.
Not true, defender missiles are still the fastest missiles in the game, up to 10km/s I think.
Originally by: Nyxus
A Raven can now do multifreq tachy damage at 100km. Cruise now travel 8km/s, dont whine to me about "delay for damage". In addition to doing massive damage at any range, the raven can fit the second best tank in game while still mounting bcu or a full rack of stabbies down low, and can't be shut down either through jamming, dampening, or nos/neuts. Did I mention that they are insanely hard to jam anyway?
The delay for damage with 8km/s cruise missiles at 100km is 12.5 sec. I'm not going to whine about the delay, because I personally think the shield tanking balances the delay, but if anyone else whines about it, 12.5 sec is plenty of time to warp out (why Ravens don't make good sniper ships).
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:28:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Nyxus
It takes ONE midslot to make a turret battleship useless. Enter the Tracking Disruptor and the Jammer. Both can be used anywhere at 50km range, easily. Oh yes, if you feel like using 2 mids dampeners will be sure to make any turret ship cry.
You're saying this like only turret ships are affected. All ships are affected by damps and jammers.[/quote
... A RAVEN CAN STILL SHOOT WHILE DAMPENED OR JAMMED.
ffs its not that hard to understand...
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:57:00 -
[53]
Quote:
You're assuming that snipers don't bug out before the missile hits, and probably also that there is no resistances involved in calculating the damage.
And what else can do multifreq damage with tachys with max damage, never missing, anywhere from 0-100km? Snipers *always* warp out. 12 second delay or no. Resists are that much trouble with you have ammo that does ANY damage type at ANY range.
Quote:
Amarr aren't too bad at damage while tanking either.
Show me any other bs that can mount it's heaviest weapons and decent setup, any decent setup, without rcu or cpu mods? Tempest with 6 1400s? Only in Selim's wet dreams. Mega with 7 Neuts? Nuh uh. Apoc or Geddon with Tachys? ROFLMAO..... Oh yes, who can mount 6 siege with plenty of everything else; cpu, grid, AND slots?
That would be the Raven.
Quote:
You're saying this like only turret ships are affected. All ships are affected by damps and jammers.
Effected - Yes. Effected equally? Heck no. With FoF's a missile ship can still attack and do damage. And they dont get aggro to boot. As drunken said, a turret ship does ZERO damage.
Quote:
Not true, defender missiles are still the fastest missiles in the game, up to 10km/s I think.
And they fire from the launchers just as fast as they do now. And thier time to be able to intercept a torp or cruise has now just been *drastically* nerfed. Oh yea, and they are highslot, not mid. Defenders blow chunks. Keep em in your rocket launcher when you can't fit anything else.....after the patch not even sure if they will be all that useful fitting at all as any amount of lag between someone firing you and you reacting and hitting f5 renders them useless. Good thing that Eve is never laggy
Tachyon damage @ 0-100km. Massive tank. Lows free for bcu or stabbies. Stupendously easy to fit. Any damage type, any range. Can still do damage jammed/damped. Counters are either suicide or ineffective, and force enemy to lose dps to use em.
Is anyone actually contending that this ship is *balanced*?
Nyxus
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marioman
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:12:00 -
[54]
Quote:
What other ship is as absurdly easy to fit with the heaviest weapons and maintain a good shieldtank? (psst....I will give you a clue....it's not Minmatar or a Gallente ship)).
Eagle can fit 4 250mm IIs 2 heavy launchers and an uber shield tank which can tank an apoc with tachs and Multis 
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marioman
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:20:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Nyxus
Tachyon damage @ 0-100km. Massive tank. Lows free for bcu or stabbies. Stupendously easy to fit. Any damage type, any range. Can still do damage jammed/damped. Counters are either suicide or ineffective, and force enemy to lose dps to use em.
Is anyone actually contending that this ship is *balanced*?
Nyxus
With the new missile changes a web + painter will be a requirement on a raven, that leaves 4 slots left for tanking...not such a massive tank now eh? Least on the other ships which armor tank (which use turrets) u can fit those and not directly affect armor tanking (as in i can still fit my guns/launchers 1 t2 large and t2 med armor reps, 3 hardeners 2 CPRs, 2 CR2s, web, painter, AND have 10 heavy drones  )
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:29:00 -
[56]
Originally by: marioman
With the new missile changes a web + painter will be a requirement on a raven, that leaves 4 slots left for tanking...not such a massive tank now eh? Least on the other ships which armor tank (which use turrets) u can fit those and not directly affect armor tanking (as in i can still fit my guns/launchers 1 t2 large and t2 med armor reps, 3 hardeners 2 CPRs, 2 CR2s, web, painter, AND have 10 heavy drones )
And you'd die to the raven.
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ShadowlordUK
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Posted - 2005.06.30 19:09:00 -
[57]
There is one extremely obvious, but perhaps relevant, point im going to inflict on this thread...
The raven was already considered at least the equal of any other bs in a short to medium range fight (if not the best).
If you win the fight what do you care how long it took for your missiles to arrive!
So by default, any increase in the power level or tanking of a raven is going to instantly take it from its current status of, almost certainly the strongest bs in the game to...... well being so obviously the best ship that even newbs will realise it lol
(I know people will try to flame this comment but nm, seems like a pretty straight forward point.... )
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Maorio
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Posted - 2005.06.30 22:20:00 -
[58]
Originally by: ShadowlordUK
There is one extremely obvious, but perhaps relevant, point im going to inflict on this thread...
The raven was already considered at least the equal of any other bs in a short to medium range fight (if not the best).
If you win the fight what do you care how long it took for your missiles to arrive!
So by default, any increase in the power level or tanking of a raven is going to instantly take it from its current status of, almost certainly the strongest bs in the game to...... well being so obviously the best ship that even newbs will realise it lol
(I know people will try to flame this comment but nm, seems like a pretty straight forward point.... )
if it's the best BS in the game why isn't everyone using them? I know I would. there are lot's of people who doesn't even fly caldari, why I wonder if they are the best and everything else sucks compared to them and why are there any turret users if missles rule everyhting as you say they do?
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2005.06.30 22:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: marioman
With the new missile changes a web + painter will be a requirement on a raven, that leaves 4 slots left for tanking...
No, that's not true. You don't need to paint battleships cause you're missiles will do adequate damage. You don't need to jam them, either, because... you figure it out!
Lad, stop trying to use Howitzers to take out sparrows. I know, tasteless RL analogy. Sorry
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Josameto III - Moon 1 |
Lord Morkoth
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Posted - 2005.07.01 04:04:00 -
[60]
Well, the caldari is the most intelligent race besides the dubious jovians. Why shouldn't they have the best bs? No im only kidding, plz dont flame me to death.
But being jammed and seeing your enemys activating their smartbombs and launching their drones for fof bait isnt fun. Also considering the uber stupidness of fof A.I.
We are the Collective. Resistance is futile.
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.07.01 06:56:00 -
[61]
Ironic to see the very same turret people who both complained that we cant implement missile changes that makes missiles TOO similar to guns, nor make any changes to missiles that might make them equal or even better at something then turrets, now whine that missiles does NOT work like turrets when it comes to FoFs and how missile ships are jammed...
Make up your minds. If you want exactly the same methods of countering to work for both turrets and missiles then you should not complain when theres suggestions to give missiles the POSITIVE traits turrets has too like instant damage etc.
You cant have it both ways. FoFs got sucky AI as it is. And are easily countered with drones and smarties and always has been. Theres already counters for everything so there is no unbalance, you just wont have a one size fits it all pony when it comes to countering damage on all targets you actualy *gasp* got to plan ahead and make sacrifices with your setup. Like you told missile users at the very begining of the missile changes: "ADAPT".
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.01 09:14:00 -
[62]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Yeah, cause FoF Cruise do TONS of damage to Inties on Test.
more than the 0 damage that turret BS do when jammed.
Sorry buddy, but 0.1 damage isn't going to make any difference at all to an interceptor.
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