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Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
739
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 14:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
Read everything before replying or I'll just ignore you. I apologize in advance for my sense of humor.
One thing that has been bothering me and my friends is that people are trying to go against the backstory of their character's empire.
For instance if you think slavery, blind religious zealotry and fanaticism are bad things, you should not have picked Amarr. It's quite simple there's no way to spin this around. The Amarr society is fundamentally evil, they look evil too. If you got a problem with your character being from a society that is built on the back of something as primitive and cruel as slavery and genocide then you should stop complaining and make a new character.
It's like having a race of people that sustains itself by eating newborns. Then you complain to CCP why they make the race seem 'evil'.
The 'space fascists'... a favorite of mine. The Caldari State is the closest thing to a dystopia the universe has. We have an insane dictator with a backstory worthy of real world despots, hypercapitalism and selfish greedy megacorporations and a cyberpunk setting. As much as I think it's kinda cool because I'm a huge fan of cyberpunk, there's just not a positive spin to Caldari society. Nobody sane would ever like to live there. We go back to character design, Caldari characters look evil as well. And their ships remind me of the Empire from Star Wars for some strange reason. Just with less lasers. I could count with both hands the numbers of likeminded capitalists I studied with at my university and we all would cringe at the thought of living in the Caldari State.
These are clearly the 'ebil guise' of the universe. It's no wonder they have allied together. It's the Gallente Federation's dream to justify it's existence. It's a 'space axis of evil'.
The Minmatar Republic is like a rising third world country. Imagine space vikings that were enslaved for centuries suddenly get free to sail the seas of Europe again. You know blood is going to spill and whose blood they are out to get. Can you really blame them? I'd be angry too. Not only they are brash and rebelious, they have major wounded pride issues and seem to always want to compesate for that as well. It is basically a society that would do anything to for e-peen.
Now the Gallente Federation. What I've seen people like to say CCP picked Gallente to be the 'good guys' of the universe. Sure having things like a democracy, a constitution and a government that serves the people (not the other way around) are positive things (and therefore unfair). That's normal, you want to know why? Because the odds of you being born in a country and society with these qualities are very high. Sure the Federation has flaws but they still have the heart in the right place at least depending on the democratic cycles.
Now you have the Federation and the Republic working together. Just the name Federation and Republic have positive sides:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRepublic
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFederation
We have a Republic out for revenge against a very clear target and for very clear reasons. Revenge is a heroic trait after all. Meanwhile the Federation is such an awesome contender that their very existence is a front to their enemies.
So we come down to faction design. CCP gave you an ice cream buffet with more than one flavor. If you don't liked the flavor you picked, try another. Try them all if you must. However do not screw around with the flavors. Leave them as they are.
Now if you want to have the flavor your own way then just accept the flavors for what they are and be happy with it.
For instance your character can be Amarr but it doesn't mean he has to support slavery. He realizes that its not something right to do but it's a reality he must live him in his society and its a part of his every day life. That's fine and dandy just respect the flavor rules.
Just had to get this out of my chest. Sorry again. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
155
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 15:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree to some point with this, but I don't think we shouldn't fool around with the flavours. Learn well what each flavour is and playing around with it is a good way to get original characters that have something to say by themselves instead of repeating what's been said a dozen million times. Key to this is not necessarily a full respect of the idea of each nation, but a deep understanding of it and a mature and realistic character that, for different reasons, could have developed inside that mold. Sepherim Catillah; Ex-Imperial Navy Officer |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
739
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 15:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well it's like I said. You can have the flavor your own way, you can add chips and nuts and some fudge too so you can play your character your own way.
However when it comes to faction/empire design, just respect the flavor rules. It doesn't mean your character has to play by their rules however it's a reality he has to live with. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1201
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
The federation executed a guy by poisoning him with a sound sensitive agent, televised it, and then had the live studio audience literally clap him to death. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
740
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:The federation executed a guy by poisoning him with a sound sensitive agent, televised it, and then had the live studio audience literally clap him to death.
Your point?
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1203
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
There is no such thing as a good guy in EVE. There aren't even people who are More Good Than Others. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
740
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Faction design rules clearly disagree with you. About people all being the same though laughable would be pretty boring. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1203
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
They aren't the same. They are all evil in different ways. |
Thgil Goldcore
Advenus Classem
507
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
I do agree that you gotta take your flavor and run with it, although I disagree with the notion that there is a 'bad' empire and a 'good' empire. Its gray meets gray all around.
The Amarr and caldari, for example, while their values are completely alien to the western world, this doesn't make them automatically evil per-say. Both of them value order beyond all else to the point of freedom being a hindrance to this. Both the Empire and the State are 'good' in the sense that they do as their values see as right. Just these values are so counter to our western culture values that they do come across as 'evil.'
The Minmatar and Gallente are easier... perhaps... for people to gel with because their values are alot more similar to our own.
This is likely why you see 'progressive' Amarrians role-played so often. Its an attempt for some to be true to their real world values but play Amarr. I must admit that if you look at my early early roleplaying from way back in 09, I fit into this category.
Anyway, I think that above everything, roleplaying these interesting and dynamic races requires leaving your own personal values at the door and adopting the values of the race your playing... After all you would have been raised with them and wouldn't know any other.
Amarrians value Faith, Order, and Tradition above all else. Concepts like freedom are alien and counter to their values entirely.
Caldari value Duty, Order, and Organization above all else. Concepts like self determination are alien and counter to their values entirely.
Gallente value Freedom, Liberty, and Individuality above all else. Although perhaps because of the individuality thing, Gallente RPers can get away with alot more than Amarrian or Caldari. Plus due to their hyper media saturation, its unlikely that any concept is going to be 'alien' to them.
Minmatar value Freedom, Tradition, and duty above all else. Similar to the Gallente's circumstances. Although many have had a healthy dose of Amarrian for obvious reasons.
Thats my take on it. As long as you center your characters values around what works for your empire (more important for Caldari or Amarrian) you can have plenty of creativity and still hold true to the Empire. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
741
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:They aren't the same. They are all evil in different ways.
So you believe that methods are all the same?
If I want to fight an enemy I would:
1)Cleanse a population and enslave survivors and people that surrender 2)Enter war with said planet due to revenge for atrocities they comitted in the past 3)Start a military and economic campaign to defeat the planet 4)Win the planet over through cultural/ideological warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power) 5)Abduct people from their homes in broad daylight and turn them into mindless sheep with no will of their own. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
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Jev North
Anshar Incorporated
146
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:Faction design rules Wha'? There's rules? Why didn't anyone tell me this!
In any case - I actually agree with the main thrust of your argument, which seems to be that attempts to whitewash the dark sides of the EVE factions by people who've chosen to adopt them is kind of annoying. Unfortunately you seem to've failed to notice the beam in the Federation's eye, and expressed yourself in the most hyperbolic way possible on top of that; so hey, that point's probably going to get snowed under in the richly deserved roasting to come.
Better luck next time? |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
741
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 18:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thgil Goldcore wrote: Just these values are so counter to our western culture values that they do come across as 'evil.'
I agree with most of what you said spot on. Of course an enslaver wouldn't see himself as evil as he would just believe he's doing god's work. However according to our own mindset (not of our characters) we would see them negatively. However there's people that are bothered by the fact their chosen faction is portrayed negactively in such a manner. CCP had a design in mind with all the factions to please people with different tastes and we should just stick with them.
The only thing I disagree with is the morality. I never claimed the Federation or the Republic to be saints but I do honestly believe they are indeed less evil than the other empires scaling historically speaking. That might just be me though. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
741
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 18:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jev North wrote:Mekhana wrote:Faction design rules Wha'? There's rules? Why didn't anyone tell me this! In any case - I actually agree with the main thrust of your argument, which seems to be that attempts to whitewash the dark sides of the EVE factions by people who've chosen to adopt them is kind of annoying. Unfortunately you seem to've failed to notice the beam in the Federation's eye, and expressed yourself in the most hyperbolic way possible on top of that; so hey, that point's probably going to get snowed under in the richly deserved roasting to come. Better luck next time?
English is not my first language and as you should have noticed this is an international game. I hope you enjoyed your little ad hominen at my expense. However that won't stop me from expressing myself in the way that pleases me the most.
Good day sir. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Thgil Goldcore
Advenus Classem
507
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 18:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
< insert long winded discussion about what makes something moral or not... 17 pages later and everyone left disappointed and unconvinced before lock >
< / insert long winded discussion about what makes something moral or not... 17 pages later and everyone left disappointed and unconvinced before lock >
Good discussion eh?
^_^ |
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CCP Falcon
2151
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 21:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
I don't want to burst anyone's bubble here, but there are no good guys, and no bad guys in New Eden.
Each of the four races can be summed up pretty simply, and none can be classed as good guys or bad guys when you look beneath the surface.
Look at all four races in depth, below what you see on the forward facing front, and you'll see that there's a million shades of grey within each of them.
Amarr Empire :
They're an Imperialist nation that base their entire society around their faith and religion. This doesn't make them inherently evil at all. It makes them dedicated to tradition and enriching their society by giving them something aspire to, somewhere to ascend to once their mortal bodies are of no more use in this world. The vast majority of Amarrians are simply churchgoing folks who get on with their lives without a care in the world. They say their prayers, they do their part, and they make sure that they be the best that they can be under the eyes of God.
On the other hand, there are the religious zealots among them. There are those who feel anyone not Amarr should be subjugated, and forced to live life as a slave, or a second class citizen. Their social system has a very distinct and divided set of classes. Money, power and your ability to mingle with those higher classes matters. Without it, you're consigned to a live in service of those above you on the social ladder. In the same respect, slavery is the norm, regardless of the bloodline you may come from, and human trafficking is rife.
The Amarr Military machine is enormous, and their Navy is the largest in the cluster, built on the back of billions of slaves through forced labor and overseen by some of the most hard lined religious fanatics in the cluster.
Caldari State :
Those who live in the Caldari State enjoy some of the most technologically advanced lives in the cluster. From the second you are born (or fished out of your vat, in the case of a tubechild) you are taught what it means to be Caldari. You're faced with learning thousands of years of tradition, culture and a deep rooted sense of respect for those who came before you. To be Caldari is a privilege, to serve the State is one of the greatest honors you can hope for.
On the flip side of the coin, while the State used to be a corporate meritocracy, it has de-evolved into being close to a fascist state under the iron-fisted rule of Tibus Heth. While before, it was a thriving, capitalist economic powerhouse among the Empires, under his rule it has began to erode, with warped delusions of grandeur that would no doubt leave those in the Raata Empire turning in their graves. Anything "un-Caldari" is shunned, racist hate against the Gallente is encouraged among the Patriots, and even in some instances the Practicals. The State is very much at war, and is suffering on all fronts under the draconian rule of an incompetent leader.
The Caldari Military is the smallest of the four main empires, but by far the most technologically advanced, and lies third only to the CONCORD Assembly and the Jovian Directorate in terms of capability. It is built on a backbone of honor and hard work, and every child is taught that to wear the colors of the State and defend it in battle is the highest honor a Caldari Citizen can achieve.
Gallente Federation :
From the outside, the Federation is a free man's dream. A democratic Federation of independent states that govern themselves beneath the oversight of a Federal Senate. Freedom of speech, liberty, and a huge melting pot of cultures from all over the cluster are the biggest powers that the Federation has. Glamour, showmanship and wealth are everything here, it is a nation of opportunity and people make what they will of themselves and work toward the dreams that they have.
From beneath though, The Federation is built on corrupt foundations. Under the glossy surface, there are issues with narcotics and corruption everywhere. Beneath the dream, the Federation is a narcissistic, hedonistic society that pushes itself to the extremes. Exploitation is everywhere, including within the government, and money talks. Along with this, there is a savage and highly racist Nationalist movement within the Federation. They are the hard lined nationalists found anywhere there's a mixture of cultures that can create a flash point.
In Military terms, the Federation lies just behind the State in terms of capability, but is much larger and benefits heavily from unmanned drone technologies. Still to this day, a large proportion of the Gallente Military relies upon advanced, unmanned hardware to make up for numbers where personnel can't. Serving the Federation and wearing their colors does of course grant you a very easy way up the social ladder, regardless of your social etiquette or ability.
Minmatar Republic :
The Republic is a deeply traditional tribal society, where every child is taught to wear the marks of their tribe with pride. Tribal culture, tradition and bonding is everything. While at times the tribes will lock horns and feud, their blood is what binds them together as a people, and there is no stronger people than the Matari. In terms of numbers, the Matari ethnic group is without a doubt the largest in the cluster, scattered all over New Eden. Over a fifth of all Matari reside within the Federation, and a huge proportion of them also still lie in bondage under the boot of the Amarr. Similarly they are also more often than not locked in fierce conflict with the Angel Cartel. In terms of depth, Matari culture is probably the most widespread and recognizable in the cluster, with some Gallente even taking on decorative elements of it such as tribal tattoo artwork and decoration as a sub-culture within the Federation.
On the other side though, the Republic is a violent, harsh society built on a diet of constant conflict and war. After being at odds with the Amarr for so long, the Republic is quick to act, ruthless and unforgiving in its military actions and is often seen as uncivilized and barbaric. The Republic also shares a lot of negative traits with the Federation. Crime and drugs are a strong influence in Matari society, and the Angel Cartel maintain a presence in most lower security areas, recruiting and wrangling as many people into services as they can.
In terms of Military capability, the Federation has provided massive amounts of aid to the Republic in the past. Most has been diverted to defense spending to ward off the Amarr threat. The Republic Fleet has an abundance of personnel, but in recent times has remained partially crippled by lack of advanced technology, outdated weaponry, low funding and resource scarcity. That said, while not the best looking or best maintained fleet in the cluster, it gets... CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
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Kahu ia Kane'ohe
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
105
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 21:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
There are bad guys... However, you can't associate the bad guys with their race, because there are much better examples of each races' citizens out there. Sorry. I can't help but alt post. :P ~Sriracha's evil twin |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
26
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 22:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:
Caldari State :
Those who live in the Caldari State enjoy some of the most technologically advanced lives in the cluster. From the second you are born (or fished out of your vat, in the case of a tubechild) you are taught what it means to be Caldari. You're faced with learning thousands of years of tradition, culture and a deep rooted sense of respect for those who came before you. To be Caldari is a privilege, to serve the State is one of the greatest honors you can hope for.
On the flip side of the coin, while the State used to be a corporate meritocracy, it has de-evolved into being close to a fascist state under the iron-fisted rule of Tibus Heth. While before, it was a thriving, capitalist economic powerhouse among the Empires, under his rule it has began to erode, with warped delusions of grandeur that would no doubt leave those in the Raata Empire turning in their graves. Anything "un-Caldari" is shunned, racist hate against the Gallente is encouraged among the Patriots, and even in some instances the Practicals. The State is very much at war, and is suffering on all fronts under the draconian rule of an incompetent leader.
The Caldari Military is the smallest of the four main empires, but by far the most technologically advanced, and lies third only to the CONCORD Assembly and the Jovian Directorate in terms of capability. It is built on a backbone of honor and hard work, and every child is taught that to wear the colors of the State and defend it in battle is the highest honor a Caldari Citizen can achieve.
After reading the Empyrian Age I got the distinct feeling that Caldari society was faltering WAAAY before Heth ever came along, and in fact, Heth kind of gave the Caldari people a (very misguided) purpose that sprung their stagnant economy to heights it hasn't seen in years. The very fact that the Federation was even considering removing their own competition from Caldari Markets to stim the tide of State wide depression really goes against this idea that before Heth they were an economic powerhouse. From what I've seen, Heth is the only thing keeping the Caldari State together right now and is the driving factor in a resurgent economic power, and thats coming from someone who ISN'T a fan of Heth. "Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu." |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1446
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 22:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
the art of good story telling is if you manage to create a bad guy which ends up having such clear and well thought out motives that he could be almost a good guy. If you don't do that you basically create a cartoon where the evil is just evil for the evils sake.
the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.
just my 2 c a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
26
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Posted - 2013.01.19 22:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:the art of good story telling is if you manage to create a bad guy which ends up having such clear and well thought out motives that he could be almost a good guy. If you don't do that you basically create a cartoon where the evil is just evil for the evils sake.
the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.
just my 2 c
Try diving into Amarrian lore to understand why they have slavery and the thought process behind it. Most people look and see 'Ah! slavery! BOOO' and never give a second thought to Amarrian culture and simply label them as your typical nutty, evil slavers in space but as it is, slavery itself is meant to be temporary and a pathway to God; its essentially a test of faith as the book called it. Through servitude one is suppose to reach some form of purity and a good holder is merely their Shepard and a slave themselves to Amaar. You must overcome your chains through faith and hard work to become free both physically and spiritually.
Really, you have to want to understand the Amarrians instead of wanting to vilify them. The book doesn't do a good job of conviencing most though and had I not played the game before I read the book I would have been put off entirely by the Empire. All I got from the book was that the Amarrians were hypocritic monsters who use drugs to enslave a race 'because they can' and they believe they should, rather than actually illuminating them outside the cartoonish villainy. "Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu." |
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CCP Falcon
2157
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Posted - 2013.01.19 22:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:
After reading the Empyrian Age I got the distinct feeling that Caldari society was faltering WAAAY before Heth ever came along, and in fact, Heth kind of gave the Caldari people a (very misguided) purpose that sprung their stagnant economy to heights it hasn't seen in years. The very fact that the Federation was even considering removing their own competition from Caldari Markets to stim the tide of State wide depression really goes against this idea that before Heth they were an economic powerhouse. From what I've seen, Heth is the only thing keeping the Caldari State together right now and is the driving factor in a resurgent economic power, and thats coming from someone who ISN'T a fan of Heth.
The Caldari people were fine, but the economy was on a very downward slope, hence the delegation that was sent out to meet with Ishukone in Malkalen.
Heth bolstered the economy a little, there's no doubt about that. However it didn't last, and he's created a lot of dissent among the Caldari people.
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
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Jing Xin
Gravity Mining and Manufacturing Inc Storm of Souls
10
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Posted - 2013.01.19 22:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
One successful "Mentas Blaque for President!" campaign and there go your good guys. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
27
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Posted - 2013.01.19 22:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Simon Louvaki wrote:
After reading the Empyrian Age I got the distinct feeling that Caldari society was faltering WAAAY before Heth ever came along, and in fact, Heth kind of gave the Caldari people a (very misguided) purpose that sprung their stagnant economy to heights it hasn't seen in years. The very fact that the Federation was even considering removing their own competition from Caldari Markets to stim the tide of State wide depression really goes against this idea that before Heth they were an economic powerhouse. From what I've seen, Heth is the only thing keeping the Caldari State together right now and is the driving factor in a resurgent economic power, and thats coming from someone who ISN'T a fan of Heth.
The Caldari people were fine, but the economy was on a very downward slope, hence the delegation that was sent out to meet with Ishukone in Malkalen. Heth bolstered the economy a little, there's no doubt about that. However it didn't last, and he's created a lot of dissent among the Caldari people.
You guy know better than anyone really, its CCP's baby and creation. I'm just relaying the image the book (and some of the chronicles even) put forth.
People working for next to nothing, forced into essential labor compounds on site of factory grounds and in the case of some with hardly nothing to live for but another days toil just doesn't sell it to me that the Caldari people as a whole were doing good. I really enjoyed the book, but it goes firmly against the grain your presenting, and more people will have read the book than will have read this post.
and thanks for replying! I know few dev teams that actively take part in the discussion of the consumers and players! thanks alot. o7. "Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu." |
Vikarion
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
175
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Posted - 2013.01.19 23:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
No, sorry, you don't get to have it all your own way, you don't get to redefine all the Eve lore that TonyG didn't write, and you don't get to define yourself as the super special space princess hero. You can believe this is WoW, and get your special elf paladin with the unicorn mount, but the rest of us aren't playing your game. We're playing Eve.
Eve was never written to be Star Wars, and that wasn't the vision of the original dev team. Eve was written to be a dark, noir, even dystopian universe, on all sides. Every Empire has a "Methods of Torture" chron, for example. It's fairly clear that you want Eve to be a Star Trek or a Star Wars setting, but the only storyteller who agreed with you has been tossed from CCP. And rightfully so. In the sort of universe Eve is, with powerful and amoral demigods, violent and immortal mercenaries, and very powerful criminal organizations, the idea that one side is good and the other evil does not fit in at all.
And it's also a more mature vision than the one you offer. Real life is not like Star Wars; real life is shades of grey, different moralities, and tough questions. The morality of Star Wars is fun for two hours in the theater, but hardly satisfying as a worldview for anyone above thirteen years old. If Eve wishes to be realistic, to really have a story that is rich enough for more than a couple hours of interaction, then it cannot have a simple "good guys versus bad guys" theme. The most interesting stories are those with a clash between equally valid or defensible views. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
741
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 23:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
That post made my day. <3 SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Silivar Karkun
Electronic Research Team Ing
29
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Posted - 2013.01.19 23:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
i'll just said that from my roleplaying side, as a Ni'kunni, i can't realte too much to the Amarr society, since my own race started as slaves, my character got graduated from the Hedion University, so i dont care for the Emperor nor the general Amarr problems.
the deal here is that, we're capsuleers we're our own nation to be honest, we form big alliances formed by members of all the playable empires, so why have to feel guilty of our nation of birth?, we're inmortals, we dont need to be chained to the mistakes of our nations.
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Horatius Caul
Kitzless
188
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Posted - 2013.01.19 23:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bienator II wrote: the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.
I don't think you understand what the purpose of slavery is in the Empire. I'm not going to make excuses for it, because from a modern moral perspective it's vile, and many of the practices revolving slavery in the Empire are horrifying. However, slavery to the Amarr is fundamentally different from slavery in the real world - historically and currently.
The Amarr Empire is culturally monolithic. There is no room for wildly different cultures to co-exist, because that would harm the internal order of the Empire. In the Empire you don't see cultural splits like the one that forced the Caldari to leave the Federation. You may occasionally see conflict driven by the personal desires of feudal lords, or political shifts to better ensure the stability of the realm, but such issues are passing - because in the end everybody has the same core priorities. The Empire has no separatists or rebel factions.
Throughout the Empire's existence, I'm certain that slavery has been one of the most crucial tools to ensure this unified culture. Slavery is not a method of subjugation or industry - it is a method of integration. To us as modern humans enjoying life in nationstates with respect for multiculturalism, this seems foreign and aggressive, but ask a Ni-Kunni if he thinks slavery was bad for his people.
For people like the Ealur and the Ni-Kunni, the arrival of the Amarr meant that they were uplifted. But instead of treating them like equals and giving them technology, risking a costly war and countless unnecessary deaths, the Amarr took on their races as apprentices to learn from serving their masters - keeping these new members of the Empire low on the ladder until everyone could understand the structure of it all, then giving them opportunities to work their way up.
Ideologically, slavery is a first step on the road to knowing God. Politically, it is a tool to safely integrate new people into the realm without destabilizing it.
Now, enslaving the Minmatar was a mistake. The Empire had never enslaved a people who were technologically advanced and broadly educated. It's easy to scrub away a culture when it's a stone-age or feudal civilization where most people can't read or write, or know the least thing about the world. The Minmatar however were a global space-age civilization, probably comparable to where we are today, and there were so many of them. The whole Minmatar civilization was basically an out of context problem for the Amarr. They kept struggling, so the Amarr kept pushing them down. The most cruel of their methods, like vitoc, probably came during this era, and the rebellion would have not only tarnished the pride of every slave-owning holder but also made them terribly afraid of what might happen and push even harder, continuing a spiral of hate and cruelty.
I don't think Amarrian slavery is inherently evil, but its practices have become debased and abhorrent in many cases. Therein lies a problem, because people will have a gut reaction against these bad practices and condemn everything related to slavery in the Empire, because they cannot separate the two things. And I think the same goes for a lot of things in the EVE factions.
Amarrad - Amarr language project |
Lei Gao
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.01.20 00:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm sure that not all, or even most, Gallente share the perspective of the OP, but this thread just confirms that if I were to create a character that engaged in faction warfare, she would be Caldari. |
AstraPardus
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
186
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 00:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
It is my personal opinion, ladies and gentlemen, that a character's flaws are what make them most interesting (and fun to play) and the EVE universe gives one quite a lot to work with in this regard. As CCP Falcon illustrated to us, there are a great range of greys. Also, there are many ways to get creative about how to build your character and still stay within canon. This does, however, usually requires some serious homework...and willingness to sacrifice some of your 'cool character ideas' for the sake of canon. Every time I post is Pardy time! :3 |
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 02:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
Horatius Caul wrote:Lots of stuff
Probably, one of the best and most complete explanations of slavery in the Empire, why it works, and why it doesn't. Great job!
Sepherim Catillah; Ex-Imperial Navy Officer |
Saul Elsyn
Sturmvogel Squadron
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 19:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
Yeah, the Caldari State was suffering economically before Heth came to power. Bringing it around when you're a totalitarian dictator gearing up for war is actually mind numbingly easy task. In a sluggish economy people need jobs, the easiest way for a militant government to create jobs is to start a military build up.
Of course, once you have that military force you kind of need to justify it... hence war and all the trials that war brings. |
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Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
742
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 12:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Irrefutable post.
I never claimed the Federation were saints However the way that the Factions are portrayed, that's the impression it gives unless you dwelve very deeply in the lore.
I'm not from a western country and Gallente behavior and self righteousness are outright insulting to me in real life. In fact I made this character as a mockery of people from certain countries that shall remain unnamed. If the Federation existed in real life, they'd be outright villanous to me.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
742
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 12:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
That's the worst and most unoriginal attempt at defaming my person. It's quite clear you hate my character as you take this game and universe too seemingly unhealthy proportions another thing is to insult me out of character for how my character acts.
Unless you suffer from a mental disability I suggest you get this through your head.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
1923
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 14:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
I have deleted some personal attacks from this thread. Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1209
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 14:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:the art of good story telling is if you manage to create a bad guy which ends up having such clear and well thought out motives that he could be almost a good guy. If you don't do that you basically create a cartoon where the evil is just evil for the evils sake.
the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.
just my 2 c
This guys post is the best post.
Speaking as a guy who plays a member of one of the most blatantly villainous factions in EVE, I can tell you that a large part of our RP effort is dedicated towards doing anything other than becoming moustache twirling cartoon villains. We always have, dare I say it, altruistic reasons for doing the things we do, at least from our point of view.
No good villain ever believes they are the bad guy. They may believe that you are a misguided idiot led by idealism, and you just dont understand why the things they do are necessary. They may believe that they are doing bad things, but the good villains always view that as a grim thing. They may also not have the same sort of moral code as you, but they will always follow their own moral code.
People who are just plain evil for the sake of evil aren't interesting, frankly, from a storytelling point of view. |
Thgil Goldcore
Advenus Classem
508
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Horatius Caul wrote: what RP winning looks like
Congratulations sir... You have won eve online RP. |
Telegram Sam
Shoot 2 Thrill
882
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 22:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen in a long time. A lot of good points made by different people.
One interesting thing about the four factions is they seem to share (or be divided by) two sets of aspects. One set of aspects is Traditional vs. Modern. Amarr and Minmatar cultures are on the traditional end and Gallente and Caldari are on the more modern end. (By modern, I don't mean the level of the faction's technology. I mean the culture's outlook on such things as individuality, social mobility, and the role of family and extended family).
The other aspect is Egalitarian/Democratic vs. Stratified/Authoritarian. Gallente and Minmatar cultures would be more at the Egalitarian/Democratic end, Amarr and Caldari more at the other.
A rough chart I just did looks like this. If you look at it according to shared traits, Amarr (Traditional, Stratified) has the least in common with Gallente (Modern, Egalitarian). Similarly, Caldari (Modern, Stratified) shares the least with Minmatar (Traditional, Egalitarian). But the directly opposed cultures are not the prime enemies of each other. It is the Traditionals (Amarr and Minmatar) that are at war with each other and the Moderns (Gallente and Caldari) that are at war with each another.
Also, each faction culturally has as much in common with its prime enemy as it does with its ally. (Ex: Gallente has Modern in common with Caldari, but not with its ally Minmatar). This might explain why both of the alliances seem to be composed of strange bedfellows. Amarr theocratic, aristocratic, land- and slave-owning thinking is alien to Caldari ultra-capitalist corporate technocratic-meritocratric thinking, and vice versa. The same for Gallente modern democratic consumerist thinking vs. Minmatar tribe and warrior culture thinking. Culturally, the alliance partners have some large differences in outlook, and culturally they don't make natural allies. The allies share political and military considerations, but their cultural differences prevent them from becoming especially friendly.
Not to read too much into this little observation. Any time you draw a chart, you're probably oversimplify things. I just think it's interesting the four factions were laid out with shared similarities and shared differences. But they weren't laid out with the most-different faction as their prime enemy. The moralistic, conservative, authoritarian Amarr are not especially opposed to the hedonistic, loose-society, democratic Gallente. Not on ideological grounds, at least. The factions are opposed to their prime enemies because of issues of history and hegemony. I think this is a nice, rather sophisticated touch.
And now, Capricorn, we will look at a chart of the aspects that define your personality and your horoscope for today....
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Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
751
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Posted - 2013.01.22 02:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
I assume we all just have to live with the fact that all empires are lawful neutral. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 05:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:if you think slavery, blind religious zealotry and fanaticism are bad things, you should not have picked Amarr. It's quite simple there's no way to spin this around. The Amarr society is fundamentally evil, they look evil too. If you got a problem with your character being from a society that is built on the back of something as primitive and cruel as slavery and genocide then you should stop complaining and make a new character.
What?? Amarr is religious, and some religious people are zealots. SOME. Not all. Some. Most people in countries which are equally well known for religious extremism on Earth today - and the OP is likely in one of those - might take offense to being told that they are zealous extremists. If someone started saying that everyone from a certain country was a hyper-religious terrorist, you'd think they were being a bigot. Lunatics on shock radio cant even get away with saying THAT. They can't say that, because it isn't true. Most people from those places just get on with the business of living. Why would it be any more reasonable to expect that of an entire nation here?? Amarr has slavery - in an actually rather liberal form as a method of indoctrinating foreign cultures into their society. In this regard, Amarr has higher moral ground than Britain or America had, a couple centuries ago. I would also advise the OP read the history books of whatever country they are from. It will be hard to find any long-standing countries that AREN'T built on genocide and slavery. That doesn't make them exemplars of morality but it doesn't make them UNBRIDLED ANCIENT EEEEVIL.
Quote: It's like having a race of people that sustains itself by eating newborns. Then you complain to CCP why they make the race seem 'evil'.
Because it's a bit of an eyeroller to have the nation that's built on a variant of the old British Empire's "white man's burden" that actually has been shown to lift a finger to do good with it - pretty morally gray, but you can go either way - be "evil" compared to the country that kidnaps people by outward racial appearance and dumps them in refugee camps as a way of boosting their population? I mean, that seems pretty grey and edgy to me too.
Quote: The Minmatar Republic is like a rising third world country. Imagine space vikings that were enslaved for centuries suddenly get free to sail the seas of Europe again. You know blood is going to spill and whose blood they are out to get. Can you really blame them? I'd be angry too. Not only they are brash and rebelious, they have major wounded pride issues and seem to always want to compesate for that as well. It is basically a society that would do anything to for e-peen.
Yep. And i'm fine with that. But they are raiding and kidnapping people off the street to haul them off to their country based on things like the color of their skin. They're not the ultimate good guy here, you can go either way with them too.
Gallente is similar. They've got freedom and democracy, sure. They're also known for being hedonists and for having an absolute certainty that their way is the best for everyone else.
Quote:Revenge is a heroic trait after all. Revenge is a villainous trait just as often as a heroic one. The guy who goes trying to torture the penitent pensioner isn't really the guy with the white hat.Quote: For instance your character can be Amarr but it doesn't mean he has to support slavery. He realizes that its not something right to do but it's a reality he must live him in his society and its a part of his every day life. That's fine and dandy just respect the flavor rules.
Or accept that Amarr frees more slaves than Minmatar does, and that people are generally good and work within how their society works. There are a lot of things that are quite evil that a lot of real countries do. People either accept or defend them without raging that their country is evil to the core. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
254
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 08:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Exactly. It's not that the whole Cluster is evil and hopelessly lost.
It's just that anyone who matters seems to be. Including all of us. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
754
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:08:00 -
[40] - Quote
Maire Gheren wrote: Amarr is religious, and some religious people are zealots. SOME. Not all. Some. Most people in countries which are equally well known for religious extremism on Earth today might take offense to being told that they are zealous extremists. If someone started saying that everyone from a certain country was a hyper-religious terrorist, you'd think they were being a bigot. Lunatics on shock radio cant even get away with saying THAT. They can't say that, because it isn't true. Most people from those places just get on with the business of living. Why would it be any more reasonable to expect that of an entire nation here??
Honestly I have no idea how old the Amarr Empire is but I can safely assume its several thousands of years old. When you pick up a history book you can tell that countries that operated similar to a theocracy were all in their infancy and as soon realized what they have done was wrong they completely remove religion from the equation. It's easy to say that the secular state was a big step to politics and governments around. Theocracy is synonym with backwardness in our world. You can look at present day theocratic states that shall remain unnamed as a good example. So we have a several thousands of year old State that still adheres to theocracy That's point number one. Let's move on to point number two.
Maire Gheren wrote:Amarr has slavery - in an actually rather liberal form as a method of indoctrinating foreign cultures into their society. In this regard, Amarr has higher moral ground than Britain or America had, a couple centuries ago. I would also advise the OP read the history books of whatever country they are from. It will be hard to find any long-standing countries that AREN'T built on genocide and slavery. That doesn't make them exemplars of morality but it doesn't make them UNBRIDLED ANCIENT EEEEVIL.
Sorry but slavery and the world 'liberal' don't mix no matter how hard you try to make it work. Yes I agree certain countries have skeletons like these in their closets and that their atrocities are not on their history books for their children to see. However for a society as old and supposedly as cultered as the Amarr empire should know better. The impact that their religion has on their society is staggering and crippling. It makes them primitive when they should be advanced. That's point number two, on to point three.
Maire Gheren wrote:Because it's a bit of an eyeroller to have the nation that's built on a variant of the old British Empire's "white man's burden" that actually has been shown to lift a finger to do good with it - pretty morally gray, but you can go either way - be "evil" compared to the country that kidnaps people by outward racial appearance and dumps them in refugee camps as a way of boosting their population? I mean, that seems pretty grey and edgy to me too.
I agree but like I said many posts ago I was not painting white knights here. I roleplay a Gallente character because the Federation is villanious to me albeit in a very modern and realistic way but this is not something I expect a westerner to understand, people of western countries would find the Gallente Federation heroic when skimming through the lore and that is the point of this thread.. If I won a ship for every time someone mistook me for an American or European because of my character I'd be a very happy person as I'd be able to unsub my trader/hauler account.
Reached quote limit. Saving this one for another. On the Minmatar:
I never said they were. The Minmatar are a personification of chaos, I'm suprised they haven't turned to anarchy yet. It would fit them like a glove.
Quote:Gallente is similar. They've got freedom and democracy, sure. They're also known for being hedonists and for having an absolute certainty that their way is the best for everyone else.
I was dying to get to this part. You see hedonism as much attractive it may sound is a rather primitive philosophy. This is part of what makes the Gallente space greeks and romans. This is a crippling flaw of Gallente society, just like theocracy and slavery is with Amarr society. Non hedonist Gallente would show impressive amount of intellect and common sense just like a progressive Amarr would. That's point number 4.
Quote:Or accept that Amarr frees more slaves than Minmatar does, and that people are generally good and work within how their society works. There are a lot of things that are quite evil that a lot of real countries do. People either accept or defend them without raging that their country is evil to the core.
Well the same applies here. Here I am making an attempt at defending democracy in an internet forum while democracy is a flawed system (however still better than the alternatives but that's a lesson for another day.) While there are people here trying to defend slavery.
I hope you understand now.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
254
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
I don't think anyone in here is defending Slavery. On the other hand some people are defending slavery from an Amarrian context.
From an Amarrian context it is either a useful economic tool or a sacred burden - depending upon the Amarrian in question. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
756
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
I'm not saying they are defending slavery from a IRL prespective. I was just making a comparison.
People get worked over their chosen faction just about as much over the country they were born or live in. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 14:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mostly, I get annoyed when flawed and edgy nation #1 is always portrayed as the evil villains, and flawed and edgy nation #2 is always portrayed as the heroic and dashing good guys. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
840
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:40:00 -
[44] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Exactly. It's not that the whole Cluster is evil and hopelessly lost.
It's just that anyone who matters seems to be. Including all of us.
If you want to feel true fear, apply that thinking to the real world... |
Da Dom
Wii R
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 07:02:00 -
[45] - Quote
Your not really talking about adding different toppings to a pre-made cookie, your making an argument about products that are mass produced tasting better than a homemade meal.
If fast food is your thing, then that's fine...
But I'm a cook. I can take the same ingredients and make several different meals from scratch. If your liberty is won by others then you are not free, you are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic and you suck the honourable man dry. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come. This time you will stand alone and fight for yourselves. Now you will pay for your freedom in the currency of honest toil and human blood |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2403
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 11:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sadly the only anarchist faction in New Eden would be the Rogue Drones.
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Kwan Enderas
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 04:02:00 -
[47] - Quote
How do Caldari have no positive aspects? Its pretty clear that they are a hardcore meritocracy, I wouldn't say its a dystopia at all. Hell, the whole deal with Tibus Heth is that the mega-corps stopped acting like real meritocracies and started screwing over all the little guys and letting the rich keep cushy jobs, regardless of competency.
Tbh I think the divide between Caldari and Gallente is really smaller than they try to make it sound. They're both competitive, supporting of mega-corps, but the Gallente have a legitimate central government which takes semi-socialist policies with government investment. Maybe they're a tad less nationalistic too. |
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
126
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 04:57:00 -
[48] - Quote
I really dont know a lot about Caldari, except that they often get the same treatment as Amarr does as far as being the eeevil dark and gloomy bad guys in comparison to the light, happy and heroic Gallente. Even though i'm sure they have all sorts of positive things to them. (I don't play Caldari.) Most of what I ever see about them, beyond the core Gal/Cal conflict (which in spite of looking like it SHOULD make Gallente the heavies, never seems to) is this vague air of "Comrade, in Caldari State, holoreel watches you..." |
Tavin Aikisen
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
133
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 10:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sometimes people pick races or classes or whatever based on gameplay mechanics, rather than anything contextual. And it usually leads to lore conflict like this.
At the same time however, this is what makes capsuleers so special. In some ways they can go against the status quo of their chosen race. Might help to also encourage it a little too. Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home. -Cold Wind |
Mund Richard
304
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 13:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
Had a Caldari mission, went something like this... I was told how unfortunate it would be, if the corporation's Executive X would happen to have a most tragic accident. Although Executive Y might benefit from it. Totally unrelated, Executive Y is a 'friend' of my agent (also in the same corp). Even more totally unrelated, he suggests I take it easy after my last misson, and just go hang around in space, maybe a pleasure cruise? There ain't any interesting data-slate on his desk he points out as he leaves, adding that maps are overrated, and surely this has nothing to do with the conversation we did not just have.
Gallente have mission where you kill your own as well though, if for a bit different reasoning.
Maire Gheren wrote:I really dont know a lot about Caldari, except that they often get the same treatment as Amarr does as far as being the eeevil dark and gloomy bad guys in comparison to the light, happy and heroic Gallente. Some of the missions, including the one I mentioned above, don't show that face of the Federation at all, but the other one... Of course, if you skip reading the text, and focus on objectives, or just visit EVE-Survival, you miss out on it. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
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Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
127
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 21:22:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tavin Aikisen wrote:Sometimes people pick races or classes or whatever based on gameplay mechanics, rather than anything contextual. And it usually leads to lore conflict like this. At the same time however, this is what makes capsuleers so special. In some ways they can go against the status quo of their chosen race. Might help to also encourage it a little too. You haven't read my position then? Because my objection isn't about wanting the Empire (and Caldari) to be good guys or different. My annoyance is that both lack positive interpretations (that aren't people trying to 'change the society' which is completely the antithesis of what I want), while the other two nations, which are JUST AS EVIL AND DARK, are portrayed as good and wholesome cultures. The wording turns it into this battle of good vs evil, when everything i've seen indicates that the intent is gray versus grey. |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University Ivy League
252
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 22:27:00 -
[52] - Quote
Guys... The thread is about people complaining about their choosen factions OOC instead of in-char. |
Alain Colcer
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 18:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:I assume we all just have to live with the fact that all empires are lawful neutral.
Actually, i think the 4 main empires are mostly Lawful neutral.
Add the pirate factions are Neutral evil
nobody is actually "good" nor a parangon of ethical behavior.
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Mund Richard
304
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 21:42:00 -
[54] - Quote
Alain Colcer wrote: Actually, i think the 4 main empires are mostly Lawful neutral. Add the pirate factions are Neutral evil nobody is actually "good" nor a parangon of ethical behavior. Why would they be?
Well, the Sisters try (to pretend?). Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
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