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Kontalaa
Nordgoetter Test Alliance Please Ignore
64
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Posted - 2013.05.06 08:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Many Developers care for Linux. They even write patches for Eve so it can run fine under Wine (Even gets noted in the patch-notes..).
Switching from DirectX to OpenGL is not just "pressing a button". Its "rewriting the whole engine-code" they built in the last years (all their carbon-stuff basically).
About multithreading: Do you have any idea how this should work? Esp. with Lag? You can outsource/split peripheral Systems (Audio, Rendering, Logic) - but i assure you that this wont fix lag (as the bottleneck is still in 1 thread) and introduce a ton of problems (esp. deadlocks, bugs, ...).
Quote: ok. but look at Blizzard and World of Warcraft or Diablo3 client - it have an opengl option and does not require any directx installed in wine environment, with opengl WoW is stable and fast
because they implemented openGL from day1. You just cant switch that stuff lateron... well .. theoretically you could .. but that would take AT LEAST 2 Expensions dedicated to this topic - for a minor userbase. |
Mikail Thiesant
Sigin-tarag
0
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Posted - 2013.05.06 09:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
@Fam Trinly
Blizzard is not a great Linux supporter as one would think. Yes their games run great with wine. But I would not want to wake up one morning just to find out that I'm perma banned just because I'm using wine (PlayOnLinux version). This happened to people playing Diablo 3. And it wasn't just few people that one could thing they are cheaters. You still have a big green warning on winehq next to Diablo 3 about this issue. Nothing like this happened with EVE and we have here 10th anniversary.
And about CCP not caring about linux or reading linux related stuff on this forums. One year ago there came some patch where when you saw a Tengu, your client insta crashed. This did not affect windows users. Just us wine users. So CCP could just not care about this issue. But they did care. Thanks to CCP Snorlax, who came to save us poor linux users, the crash was fixed in few days. Whole story:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100279&find=unread
So yes. If CCP did not care about linux, they would not let CCP Snorlax to spend his time on fixing that problem. And this story shall not be forgotten. Because it shows that we have a true hero in CCP ranks! :-) |
Falun Assad
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.05.06 11:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Just my two isk on the issue:
Allthough EvE does run under wine, performance and post-patch-stability are far from optimal.
AFAIK EvE is based on stackless python, so there is definetly potential. Nobody asks to switch from DirectX to OpenGL, but adding OpenGL.
Is it worth it? Easy answer: Make a Kickstarter project of it! If enough people are willing to pay for an addition of OpenGL and native clients for Linux, Mac and Win, what should keep CCP from doing it? |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
160
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Posted - 2013.05.06 16:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
...Is that period of the year again? << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Fam Trinly
Russian SOBR SOLAR FLEET
7
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Posted - 2013.05.06 17:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kontalaa wrote:...Many Developers care for Linux.... you are not the one of such CCP Developers - why should I believe you ? I can believe in that if Dev's would post often in this linux part of forum, and write something in dev-blogs or patch notes, give us a little promise/hope
Kontalaa wrote: ...for a minor userbase.... did you count them ? prove it
Mikail Thiesant wrote:... One year ago there came some patch where when you saw a Tengu, your client insta crashed. This did not affect windows users. Just us wine users. So CCP could just not care about this issue. But they did care. Thanks to CCP Snorlax, who came to save us poor linux users, the crash was fixed in few days. ... and now listen the full/true story - long time after that patch nobody cares about wine users, their petitions (I wrote one - and got response like "there is no support of linux for EVE") and massive forum posting, somebody find "troubleshoot" to clear cache with endless loop script, somebody like me stopped playing under linux and switch skills with windows
and only when I asked for help in Russian forum to CCP Spitfire (ru-community relationship coordinator at that time) the help was arrived
That was good (great !) beginnig. But I think all we wish CCP to give more love to linux
I believe that linux users in 2013 are not still "minor userbase" (I think the count of linux users is near to Mac - around 10-15%), and I believe CCP can do more - at least they could for the beginning add some testing of new patches under linux, make some profile-optimization (for example, watch on cpu load and strace when you docked in station - why ExeFile consume 89% of CPU with ioctl syscalls ? )
Sadly - I do not know good way to collect voices of linux pilots and to petition to CCP about improving gaming experience and stability under wine/Linux we need some interface to make voting for long time (to involve 50-80% of linux gamers) and some efficient way to broadcast this voting\petition (because not everybody read this forum and this thread) |
Nebu Retski
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
39
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Posted - 2013.05.06 17:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
Falun Assad wrote:AFAIK EvE is based on stackless python, so there is definetly potential. Your AFAIK doesn't go as far as you think it goes. While it is true that EvE uses stackless Python, there is still a part of EvE that is written in C/C++, that's why there is the occasional c++ error/crash that you can experience and the fact that the vcrun libraries from MS are required.
Falun Assad wrote:Nobody asks to switch from DirectX to OpenGL, but adding OpenGL. What would you prefer: running the client as it is now or having an OpenGL version which is not optimised at all, because you know it takes quite a bit of time (read monies) to build a proper working graphics engine. Even if they do build a proper engine, it would take a couple of years before it's ready to be send out into the crowd. Also I'm pretty sure that there would be a need for a code checking of the stackless python to make sure it actually runs on Linux, Mac and Windows without the need to have special cases to handle the different platforms. As an example you can check out the famous T3 bug from last year, which was due to the way how the python code was accessing the disk which Linux didn't particularly like.
Falun Assad wrote:Is it worth it? Easy answer: Make a Kickstarter project of it! If enough people are willing to pay for an addition of OpenGL and native clients for Linux, Mac and Win, what should keep CCP from doing it? Here's some napkin math and pessimistic speculations:
- 5 year in man hours needed - it was mentioned at fanfest last year that 5 man year was required to upgrade the current graphic engine to DX11, then take into account that those devs already know how to use the DX framework so this is most likely an underestimation
- 50000Gé¼ per man year needed - I wouldn't be surprised that it's actually more
- 5% of player base uses Linux - I wouldn't be surprised that it's actually less
- 400000 supscriptions - I believe that's current approximation
That would give an approximate base of (5*50000)/(0.05*400000) = 12.5Gé¼ per Linux user to contribute to fund the implementation of an OpenGL engine. It might not sound like much, but I'm not convinced that there are a lot of Linux users that actually want to cough up that money. Especially not for a game that already runs perfectly fine on their computer and for which they already pay. Then you have to realize that this base value is most likely an underestimation and it quickly doubles, triple, quadruples if you would go for more appropriate values of the input. It will also take several years before the engine will be ready. Who in this game is truely willing to spend money for something they might actually never use?
Katrina Bekers wrote:...Is that period of the year again? Rather period of the month.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
149
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Posted - 2013.05.07 00:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
Nebu Retski wrote:Eve runs perfectly fine on linux BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
160
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Posted - 2013.05.07 16:50:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:Nebu Retski wrote:Eve runs perfectly fine on linux BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
?
It doesn't? << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Fam Trinly
Russian SOBR SOLAR FLEET
7
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Posted - 2013.05.07 20:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Nebu Retski wrote:
5 year in man hours needed - it was mentioned at fanfest last year that 5 man year was required to upgrade the current graphic engine to DX11,
And how DX11 correlate to OpenGL ? (and d3d11 need to be disabled in wine dll-overrides for now, as I know at this moment EVE is totally DX9 application)
Quote:Especially not for a game that already runs perfectly fine on their computer and for which they already pay
sad but true - Eve do not run perfectly on Linux and on Windows too. we are not paying for game client - we pay subscription for month of playing
Somebody who do not want to do something - will find thousand reasons for that.
We are talking here about improving Eve client
Wow ! Things changing right now !
Dev topic in Linux forum ! check it New EVE Launcher in testing on Singularity |
Nebu Retski
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
39
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
Fam Trinly wrote:Nebu Retski wrote:
5 year in man hours needed - it was mentioned at fanfest last year that 5 man year was required to upgrade the current graphic engine to DX11, And how DX11 correlate to OpenGL ? DX11 and OpenGL are both frameworks that allow you to make fancy graphical applications without explicitely knowing how to tell the hardware how to do it. When a team that already knows the DX framework needs approximately 5 man years to upgrade the current framework to a newer version of the same framework, then that tells you that, to a certain extent, changing framework will be approximately the same amount of time (most likely more due to that team needing to learn the methodology of that new framework). Technically they could simply forego upgrading to DX11 and switching to OpenGL instead (I would not really be oposed to that), but I'm not very optimistic about them doing that, nor will I pay extra for them to do that. I consider it a very bad return of investment when I believe that my current investment could be better spend on improving the game itself and ironing out glitches in the client.
Fam Trinly wrote:we are not paying for game client - we pay subscription for month of playing Where do you think that subscription money goes to? It's mostly used to pay developers to keep working on the game, client and servers, not purely to keep the servers up and running.
Fam Trinly wrote:Somebody who do not want to do something - will find thousand reasons for that. Someone who doesn't understand that there's limited resources, will keep insisting on throwing resources at problems/issues/ideas until it's fixed, regardless if those resources are available or not. Companies however can not put themselves in such positions or else their ship will sink. A company like CCP unfortunately does not have an abundance of resources available to do just that.
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Kontalaa
Nordgoetter Test Alliance Please Ignore
64
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Posted - 2013.05.10 20:31:00 -
[41] - Quote
Fam Trinly wrote: you are not the one of such CCP Developers - why should I believe you ? I can believe in that if Dev's would post often in this linux part of forum, and write something in dev-blogs or patch notes, give us a little promise/hope
If you dont belive me, then dont. Its just the things you hear if you follow linux-oriented-users (meeting devs at several occasions) via various media etc..
But i have no hard proof.
Quote:Kontalaa wrote: ...for a minor userbase.... did you count them ? prove it
Wine can and (afaik) is being detected as Platform by Eve. CCP has the user-data. If they were a major factor we would have seen such consequences from it.
Quote: I believe that linux users in 2013 are not still "minor userbase" (I think the count of linux users is near to Mac - around 10-15%), and I believe CCP can do more - at least they could for the beginning add some testing of new patches under linux, make some profile-optimization (for example, watch on cpu load and strace when you docked in station - why ExeFile consume 89% of CPU with ioctl syscalls ? )
Last numbers i remember (dunno if it was from eve or another game) were about 5% for mac and a bit lower for linux. i suppose this is not much different in eve.
Quote: Sadly - I do not know good way to collect voices of linux pilots and to petition to CCP about improving gaming experience and stability under wine/Linux we need some interface to make voting for long time (to involve 50-80% of linux gamers) and some efficient way to broadcast this voting\petition (because not everybody read this forum and this thread)
What i would like is some kind of multiplatform-binary .. so you have a x86-compiled binary, a x86_64 (basically a 64-bit-loader switching to x86) and (to me important) an arm-binary. Wine has arm-support (as WindowsRT is arm) and my smartphone runs on arm/android.. the capability (in terms of cpu/gpu/ram/resolution/...) would be way enough for eve :D
but i doubt that such project will be realised in short time.
--
btw: i have no problems whatsoever with eve under wine. Some minor graphical-errors on max-settings (driver? hardware? definetly not eve but my system..), but no features that wont work. I can use eve-voice to chat with dustbunnies, walk in my CQ with my trader, can use the char-creator and all other stuff that was not working for a long time. All without any overrides (just blacklisting d3dx11 due to the wine-implementation not being full implemented) or other stuff. So yes, it basically runs perfect.
--
I would prefer a unix-solution (not only linux, but also native mac and android (arm!)) as well, but the numbers estimated in this thread look a bit low for such a project. With their SCRUM-planning i would think that you need about 2 teams (12-15 developers) working fulltime for about 2-3 expansions (roughly 12-18 sprints) - but thats just my guess from outside.
I think whats interesting is, the way windows is heading. Microsoft wants some kind of store with licensed software (like apple has with its store and linux has it with its packet-management). One step is Metro and making "The Desktop" only one App of many. They already said they will continue this with Win9/10. MS is just missing out a ton of money - because everyone uses their platform, but they dont pay for the usage. Imagine some kind of steam-platform for everything where MS gets a small cut. This is where they are heading. Moreover they Unify Mobile/Tablet-Devices with PC (Windows RT/Win 8 "feel" the same). Would be hard to tell users why they can use Eve on the one (Win8) but not on the other (WinRT for arm-stuff like tablets/smartphones), although both have about the same cpu/gpu-power..
Like CCP Dr.EyjoG always sais: "Interesting times...." |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.05.12 06:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
As for the potential in the linux gaming community, doublefines humble bundle creates an interesting statistic: https://www.humblebundle.com/
But apart from that: Even the Mac community does only get a crappy Transgaming wrapped version and even with that piece of excrement, CCP is already ahead of most other companies. And for reasons explained more than enough, we can't realistically expect anything more than a crappy Wrapper (read: OpenGL engine rewrite). And in my opinion, Wine is better than anything Transgaming has to offer and close to nobody would use the wrapped version anyway. (This has been proven in the past)
The downside to this is, that nobody in his right mind would offer official support for an open source wrapper that is not under their control. But as long as Eve works alright (except a few very minor annoyances) wrapped with wine, I am perfectly fine with that. And if it doesn't work for you, I am sorry to say that you are probably doing it wrong. |
Eleriien Krhaagh
Just Another Test
1
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Posted - 2013.06.07 13:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Because of the many security problems with windows, I do not have any such at all. I also would love to see some native linux client of eve-online. I would not even care so much about fancy graphics. I just would like to see it run stable, even if it looks like crap!
Just having it run stable would already be a novum!
Just do it, CCP! |
Nebu Retski
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
39
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Posted - 2013.06.07 13:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
That time of the month again \o/ |
Frazier
Interstellar Geographic Society
5
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Posted - 2013.06.07 14:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
Don't expect this to happen any time soon (speaking in years). CCP would need to hire a whole Linux team to to this. This is nothing like the humbebundle-games. EVE is an MMO with constant development. You not only need to port it once, you need to iterate on that, test it and do all other QA stuff in full scope that you need to to for the Windows client. The whole client needs a rewrite, its not just wrapping windows into wine like the old and failed "Linux client" was. Isn't the Mac client only a wrapped Windows version, too?
And yes, transgaming is horrible. A clean wine setup runs quite stable. Aside from the Launcher issues recently which needed a patch for wine, I had no stability issues at all over the last month. I know other games that need much babysitting to get the run under wine.
I'm a pure Linux user for many years now, even my machine at work is on Linux (the only one in the company). Never hit a point where I would say I need Windows again. |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
177
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Posted - 2013.06.10 08:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
Nebu Retski wrote:That time of the month again \o/
Beat me to it...
We should setup a schedule for who post the "TTOTMA" messages in such threads! << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Sabotaged
Assisted Suicide Services Initiative Mercenaries
43
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Posted - 2013.07.13 01:04:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sonkut wrote:This is a pure interest Post, I understand eve is usable with Wine and I remember in the past there was effort to make a linux client which was put to one side when it was decided to be trouble/too much effort/whatever. With the whole steam fiasco at the moment and their push to make the Linux platform the new gaming revolution IGÇÖm starting to re-consider my setup. The main problem is if I pushed to move to linux and get learning the platform then there is one game I know will hold me back(you! Yes you CCP!). I dislike faffing around with games, especially ones that get updates often, because this will quite often screw the pooch on all your hard work. Just look at Day Z, as soon as an update comes out you had better just delete the whole game and re-download. So here is my question. Will CCP be developing a proper linux version so they can guarantee they donGÇÖt get stuck and left behind? Another question is would it just be made and delivered through the steam client as part of their thing? Would there be any difference? HereGÇÖs a recent post from Slashdot on the Steam/Linux matter: Link
Eve online is written in Stackless Python, yet there's no Linux client....go figure. A new install of Ubuntu 13.04 64-bit took some time figuring out how to add i386 repositories cause it don't work out of the box. That meant CLI.
The problem is there's already a solution to playing EVE on Linux. And the truth is the FPS is just too damn fast and smooth, actually far better than windows to bother.
http://www.playonlinux.com/en/ - surprisingly, the program written written in Python....
In all serious though, I don't understand how it's written in Python and not native in Linux, that just doesn't make sense to me. |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
178
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Posted - 2013.07.15 16:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
Python is the "logic" code. It can be easily ported over Linux.
The problem is the rest of the code - namely graphics, audio, network, and a lot of other third-party libraries and technologies (think Vivox for the Voice Chat feature), which is all but native on Linux. And it requires WINE or another way to trick the code to think it's running on a Windows platform. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
darmwand
Repo.
161
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Posted - 2013.07.15 19:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
Katrina Bekers wrote:Python is the "logic" code. It can be easily ported over Linux.
The problem is the rest of the code - namely graphics, audio, network, and a lot of other third-party libraries and technologies (think Vivox for the Voice Chat feature), which is all but native on Linux. And it requires WINE or another way to trick the code to think it's running on a Windows platform.
I would be tempted to say that graphics are the only real issue here. Audio and networking code are comparatively easy to write in a platform-independent way, graphics on the other side can be written that way but since EVE uses DirectX instead of OpenGL, would require a lot of work in this case.
That said, other companies (namely Valve atm) have shown that porting games to OpenGL is not only far from impossible but may even result in better performance, CCP on the other hand appear to be busy with other things. "Imagine it is war and everybody cloaks." -- Bienator II |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
118
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Posted - 2013.07.16 01:56:00 -
[50] - Quote
Honestly what I'd like to see is CCP compile EVE with winelib for Linux and Macs. Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
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dennis cole
D N C enterprises
0
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Posted - 2013.07.19 01:06:00 -
[51] - Quote
well since microsoft built backdoors for the nsa cia ect to break into our computers so I came here hoping for a linux version hoping to delete my windows client and tell ms fu but guess not everybody has to use the base system the nsa likes to spy on us with |
Ironlenny
Tetragorn SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4
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Posted - 2013.07.19 01:52:00 -
[52] - Quote
To port the EVE client:
Any OS specific behavior would need to be changed (ex: path names). Depending on what the behavior is, it could be handled using defines in the headers or OS specific classes or functions.
The graphics stack would need to be changed. The quick and dirty solution would be shim functions to translate directx calls to opengl calls.
Proprietary party libraries (ex: Awesomium, Microsoft's C/C++ libraries). If they have a linux port then there's no problem (I believe Awesomium does). If there's not, either CCP would need to convince the license holder to port the libraries (or allow CCP to do it) or CCP would need to replace the libraries.
Fix build and runtime bugs.
To do this CCP would need one developer (either a current employee or a contractor) to start working on one of those four issues. It would take time, but many projects have shown that porting software universally increases the quality of the software by finding bugs, performance bottlenecks, and code hacks that reduce flexibility, reliability and portability. |
Djana Libra
DAB Black Legion.
262
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Posted - 2013.07.27 09:32:00 -
[53] - Quote
Marsan wrote:Honestly what I'd like to see is CCP compile EVE with winelib for Linux and Macs.
We had that, was crap so people used wine instead of the winelib version.
I'd love to see a linux version but yeah doubt it will happen. |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
179
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Posted - 2013.07.30 12:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
Djana Libra wrote:Marsan wrote:CCP compile EVE with winelib We had that, was crap so people used wine instead of the winelib version.
Uhm, no.
The official linux client was provided by Transgaming, which - if any - had an ancient fork of winelib. AFAIK, it was just a windows "classic" client wrapped exactly as it was run inside WINE. With the difference of using a terminally obsolete version of WINE. It was even unable to run the "premium" graphic engine (Trinity / V2), while the current WINE at the time was perfectly able to.
<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Tyranthraxus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.08.26 13:18:00 -
[55] - Quote
I just want to chime in and support the Linux mob. I only use Windows for a handful of games. I will not be going to Windows 8 or MacOS, so when the time comes that I cannot get security updates for Windows 7, I will be going Linux and abandoning any games that won't run natively (or well with Wine). |
Rune Ainur
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2013.08.26 16:58:00 -
[56] - Quote
Eve runs especially well in Wine (except the launcher... ugh)
What I like most about my Eve + Linux setup is that I can run Eve in a window full screen and have a true borderless window. Also, it performs slightly better, which I've noticed a trend lately in Wine. The games it can run with minor or no issues typically are more performant. |
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
89
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Posted - 2013.10.01 17:55:00 -
[57] - Quote
OpenGL is a faster, more advanced, more compact system than DirectX. OpenGL works on Windows XP, DirectX 10 does not.
CCP should not just "make a Linux version". They should dump the dying and bloated DirectX and switch completely to OpenGL.
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