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P1rate Dave
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Posted - 2005.07.06 13:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: P1rate Dave on 06/07/2005 13:25:17
ok first thing, anyone remember this;
 Quote:
using a target painter I, with only target painting lvl 1 skill
Vigil sig radis before painted: 44m
vigil sig radius before painted with mwd running: 264m
Vigil sig radis while painted: 55m
Vigil sig radis while painted with mwd running: 1584m
the attribute info says 25% signature penalty so 1.25*264 = 330m this is apparently incorrect ...
I am of the opinion this hasnt been fixed just based on some quick tests i ran with my rail gun setup on my thorax, unfortunatly i cant confirm it becuase the show info window is not updating correctly (it doesnt show any sig increase when painted) when you are painted.
Now missile damage is being calculated according to speed of the target and their sig radius - so being painted should mean a frigate with an mwd going or not will take more damage from a missile hit (ALOT more if the painters are still bugged).
After testing with a cerberus and a taranis there seems to be a slight problem -
(All new missile skills at lvl 2 heavy and light missiles lvl 4 all missiles fired from a ceberus onto shields of the taranis)
Heavy missile hit on taranis going at 499 no painter no mwd = 24.5 damage
Heavy missile hit on taranis going at 2800 no painter with mwd = 19.2 damage
Heavy missile hit on taranis going at 2800 with painter with mwd = 15.9 damage
and just for the hell of it:
Heavy missile hit on taranis going at 80 with web no painter no mwd = 24.5 damage
Heavy missile hit on taranis going at 570 with web no painter with mwd = 114.8 damage
Heavy missile hit on taranis going at 570 with web with painter with mwd = 114.8 damage
so thats heavies, something weird going on there i think now lights with assault launchers
Light missile hit on taranis going at 500 no painter no mwd = 36.7 damage
Light missile hit on taranis going at 2800 no painter with mwd = 14.8 damage
Light missile hit on taranis going at 2800 with painter with mwd = 13 damage
and once more
Light missile hit on taranis going at 80 with web no mwd no painter = 36.7 damage
Light missile hit on taranis going at 550 with web with mwd no painter = 57.4 damage
Light missile hit on taranis going at 550 with web with mwd with painter = 57.4 damage
so.. if the target ship is runing the mwd and is not webbed painting it actually causes missiles to do less damage to it .. that doesnt seem correct to me 
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.07.06 13:27:00 -
[2]
...Looks like its still broken to what it was on SISI last week.
Rejoice, inty pilots, for Painters have no effect on mwd'ing targets right now. 
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Chith
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Posted - 2005.07.06 13:34:00 -
[3]
Originally by: keepiru
Rejoice, inty pilots, for Painters have no effect on mwd'ing targets right now.
Given what was said above, that seems to only be verified for missiles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought painters were never supposed to provide a beneficial effect to missiles-- which, incidentally, is confirmed by the above.
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The Tarsis Shriners |
Jernau Gurgeh
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Posted - 2005.07.06 13:40:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Chith
Originally by: keepiru
Rejoice, inty pilots, for Painters have no effect on mwd'ing targets right now.
Given what was said above, that seems to only be verified for missiles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought painters were never supposed to provide a beneficial effect to missiles-- which, incidentally, is confirmed by the above.
Target painters are indeed supposed to effect cold war era missiles.
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
P1rate Dave
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Posted - 2005.07.06 13:42:00 -
[5]
Edited by: P1rate Dave on 06/07/2005 13:42:01
they effect the sig radius of a ship which means they should effect the missile hits
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Natasha Kerensky
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Posted - 2005.07.06 13:52:00 -
[6]
This is not good, this is not good at all.
I had hoped that CCP would've learned from thier patching mistakes by now, especially with the new QA manager. This is the Projectille weapon catastrophe all over again.
I hate to talk bad about CCP as EVE has potential to be a really great game, but this is geting out of control
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FORUMZ! Because none of us, is as dumb as all of us |
qtip
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Posted - 2005.07.06 13:53:00 -
[7]
would be interesting if targetpainters work on non-mwding ships.
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Buraken v2
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Posted - 2005.07.06 14:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Buraken v2 on 06/07/2005 14:59:36
ever thought about explotion velocity?
My Sig:
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Originally by: TheKiller8
Uh what's stopping you from fitting expanders on a freighter?
No slots?
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.07.06 15:09:00 -
[9]
sure, but it also means they dont work on mwd'ing targts as far as turrets are concerned either.
please guys, lets try not to turn it into another "have some cheese with that whine/troll the missile users" thread, k? i think they got enough of a kick in the family jewels as it is.   
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.07.06 15:14:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Vishnej on 06/07/2005 15:16:08
Edited by: Vishnej on 06/07/2005 15:15:34
It took me a while, but I finally figured out what was at work here:
First, if the MWD'd sig radius is bigger than the explosion radius, then a painter will have no theoretical benefit. This is confirmed.
Next, find the sig radius of the inty in each of these situations - on a theoretical level if you can't get the stat ingame. If the MWD increases sig by 500%, post the result, whatever. Same with TPs. This is as important a stat as speed to compare.
Last, I propose this theory: Speed boost and sig boost affect missiles proportionally just like they do turret tracking - with a cap for max explosion radius and a modifier for accel control.
Alternate theory: There is a threshhold below which speed will not affect explosion damage at all. In this case, it was below 499m/s.
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Talos Munjab
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Posted - 2005.07.06 16:18:00 -
[11]
Could we have that in english plz?
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jeNK
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Posted - 2005.07.06 16:29:00 -
[12]
You seem to be forgetting the speed of the ship bit.
As the ship is going > 2k per sec, this is why the damage is so little compared to it going at 100m/s.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.07.06 16:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vishnej
Edited by: Vishnej on 06/07/2005 15:34:07
It took me a while, but I finally figured out what was at work here:
If the MWD'd sig radius is bigger than the explosion radius, then a painter will have no theoretical benefit. This is confirmed.
Find the sig radius of the inty in each of these situations - on a theoretical level if you can't get the stat ingame. If the MWD increases sig by 500%, post the result, whatever. Same with TPs. This is as important a stat as speed to compare.
Theory: Speed boost and sig boost affect missiles proportionally just like they do turret tracking - with a cap for max explosion radius and a modifier for accel control.
Alternate theory: There is a threshhold below which speed will not affect explosion damage at all. In this case, it was above 499m/s.
Well, i need to do more testing but: last time i tried painting an mwd'ing frig on SISI - 3 days ago - its signature didnt increase. Preliminary TQ testing says this carried over.
So its not so much an issue of how they affect missiles, thats actually unrelated. Its the painters actually being broken, like before but different.
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Ohotnik
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Posted - 2005.07.06 16:34:00 -
[14]
i tested painters with guns and they work. i use focused pulses (average medium close range laser) and without painters my ship could not hit frigate drones, with painter it could. Webber works better though.
aka (Siroc) |
Samuel Longhorn
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Posted - 2005.07.06 16:37:00 -
[15]
The speed vs dmg doesnt work at all.
From 50 KM, my torpedo does 200-300 dmg on a mwd'ing frigate going 2000m/s
but the closer it gets the less dmg one does, and when it orbits at 700m/s 6-7km away, theres no way to kill it with missiles.
I web'ed it with 2 web'ers, put 2 tech2 targetpainters on it, and fired cruise..
And did 17.2 dmg
HO-*******-ray.
Im so glad i dont do that for a profession ^^ |
Siroc
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Posted - 2005.07.06 17:05:00 -
[16]
you dual webbed him and dual painted him and still did not kill him? thats pretty crazy then. definately something is not working.
aka (Ohotnik) |
Imode
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Posted - 2005.07.06 17:53:00 -
[17]
I think what Visnej is trying to say is...
Missiles may have a maximum damage threshhold associated with them. Meaning, you can boost the signature of the target and slow them down all you want, but once you hit the damage threshhold of your particular missile, that's that.
That would make sense for Dave's test where the numbers matched. (Unless there really is a bug), it looks like that in this particular test, a mwd'ing under 600m/sec frigate's signature is big and slow enough for a missile to hit for full damage.
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.07.06 19:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Samuel Longhorn
The speed vs dmg doesnt work at all.
From 50 KM, my torpedo does 200-300 dmg on a mwd'ing frigate going 2000m/s
but the closer it gets the less dmg one does, and when it orbits at 700m/s 6-7km away, theres no way to kill it with missiles.
I web'ed it with 2 web'ers, put 2 tech2 targetpainters on it, and fired cruise..
And did 17.2 dmg
HO-*******-ray.
Im so glad i dont do that for a profession ^^
This is what concerns me - I've heard three independant accounts complaining that range from player to enemy affects the damage their missile does. According to all I've read of the missile thread etc, this should not be. We need to explore this more, do some testing.
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Ashelth
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Posted - 2005.07.06 19:39:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Siroc
you dual webbed him and dual painted him and still did not kill him? thats pretty crazy then. definately something is not working.
Yup, I've been noticing this lately. Whatever is effecting missile damage it's pretty much random now.
Oh, and try shooting a deadspace structures... 50 damage w/ torps to an asteroid colony 10 times the size of my raven is stupid
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Vilserx
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Posted - 2005.07.06 19:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Vishnej
Originally by: Samuel Longhorn
The speed vs dmg doesnt work at all.
From 50 KM, my torpedo does 200-300 dmg on a mwd'ing frigate going 2000m/s
but the closer it gets the less dmg one does, and when it orbits at 700m/s 6-7km away, theres no way to kill it with missiles.
I web'ed it with 2 web'ers, put 2 tech2 targetpainters on it, and fired cruise..
And did 17.2 dmg
HO-*******-ray.
Im so glad i dont do that for a profession ^^
This is what concerns me - I've heard three independant accounts complaining that range from player to enemy affects the damage their missile does. According to all I've read of the missile thread etc, this should not be. We need to explore this more, do some testing.
I've also experienced this 'range' thing. At 80km or so I'm hitting Guristas Kyoukans (30k frigs) for 330 damage with Cruise Missiles. However, when they're in painting and webbing range (with these two mods activated), I'm doing 30 damage. Sounds broken to me.
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VSX EVE Design |
JoCool
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Posted - 2005.07.06 19:45:00 -
[21]
Sounds perfectly fine to me, just like guns.
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Seth Killbain
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Posted - 2005.07.06 20:38:00 -
[22]
Just tried missiles for the first time since the patch and it is a confusing state.
I was hitting frigs at 30k for 260 damage using cruise missiles but when hitting cruisers at the same distance i was only getting 60ish.
But every now and then i.e. once in 15 missiles, i would hit for around 120 on the cruiser. That seems backwards to me, and btw ni target painters.
I was also getting about 150ish damage on structures i fired on.
It seems either the missiles dont function in any logical way or they are shafted hehe.
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Siroc
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Posted - 2005.07.06 20:50:00 -
[23]
1400mm can do anywhere between 0 and 2500 damage... whats wrong with the missles again?
aka (Ohotnik) |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.07.06 21:07:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 06/07/2005 21:08:36
Originally by: JoCool
Sounds perfectly fine to me, just like guns.
I don't know what guns you are using, but I can pop a dual webbed** dual painted interceptor with my 425mm railguns, missiles should certainly be able to do the same. Heck, my guns fragged a crow at 70km with 400m/s transverse the other day - missiles can't do that either if the crow is running away.
Something is screwy with the calculations, thats what this thread is about...
**assuming 85% or better webber
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.06 21:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
I don't know what guns you are using, but I can pop a dual webbed** dual painted interceptor with my 425mm railguns, missiles should certainly be able to do the same. Heck, my guns fragged a crow at 70km with 400m/s transverse the other day - missiles can't do that either if the crow is running away.
Something is screwy with the calculations, thats what this thread is about...
**assuming 85% or better webber
You could have done that, when MWD+target painter bug existed. You no longer can, provided the inty is in orbit under 20k.
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Tozmeister
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Posted - 2005.07.06 22:10:00 -
[26]
We did some test firing today and it seems painters have no effect at all on missile damage. A cruise equiped raven fireing at a stationary AF with and without the painter on did exactly the same damage.
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.07.06 22:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Blind Fear
Originally by: Hllaxiu
I don't know what guns you are using, but I can pop a dual webbed** dual painted interceptor with my 425mm railguns, missiles should certainly be able to do the same. Heck, my guns fragged a crow at 70km with 400m/s transverse the other day - missiles can't do that either if the crow is running away.
Something is screwy with the calculations, thats what this thread is about...
**assuming 85% or better webber
You could have done that, when MWD+target painter bug existed. You no longer can, provided the inty is in orbit under 20k.
I would assume that the interceptor would be in under 20km, unless you have a 85% or better web with greater than 20km range you'd like to sell me. A pair of those things will take a ceptor down to 90m/s, I'll have to see if anyone in my corp wants to waste a ceptor on a weapons test...
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P1rate Dave
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Posted - 2005.07.06 22:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: P1rate Dave on 06/07/2005 22:15:54
Originally by: Tozmeister
We did some test firing today and it seems painters have no effect at all on missile damage. A cruise equiped raven fireing at a stationary AF with and without the painter on did exactly the same damage.
yes and ive tested it on a tarnais and a rifter both times painting while it wasnt webbed actually reduced the damage of the missiles - it had no effect when the target was webbed and painted
something is very wrong there, im pretty sure the target painters+mwd bug is still around but its only working for turrets?
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Vilserx
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Posted - 2005.07.06 22:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: JoCool
Sounds perfectly fine to me, just like guns.
Like the lack of Target Painter effect and bizarre, unexplained, random damage jumps at different ranges? Not exactly perfectly fine at the moment.
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VSX EVE Design |
P1rate Dave
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Posted - 2005.07.06 23:11:00 -
[30]
do try and ignore the retarded comments people like to leave without any justification
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 02:27:00 -
[31]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 02:27:43
I've done EXTENSIVE (read, many graphs, use of a graphing calculator and Excel sheets) testing regarding missile damage, and I've seen nothing to support this "different damage at different ranges" arguement.
The first part of the missile equation, which is essentially target ship signature / missile explosion radius * missile damage. If Signature / explosion > 1, max damage is used.
Now this is only for a unmoving target. Actvating a MWD in just about any frigate will cause light and heavy missiles to hit for full damage. However, due to the speed at which these ships can travel, that full damage is reduced by an equation involving target speed and missile explosion velocity. It isn't a linear equation, but it's close, and very difficult to determine exactly.
If anyone out there is interested in helping me solve the missile formula, and has good knowledge of Calculus and deriving an equation from statistical data, I'll be happy to send you my data and share credit with you when the formula is finally discovered and posted. 
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.07.07 02:45:00 -
[32]
Electro: I doubt I'll be able to point out anything new, but I'd like to see the data if possible.
email: [email protected] [remove the "NOSPAM" from that]
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Fusebl0wn
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tozmeister
We did some test firing today and it seems painters have no effect at all on missile damage. A cruise equiped raven fireing at a stationary AF with and without the painter on did exactly the same damage.
That's pretty weird cause me and a corpmate did the same exact test and the painter did increase the damage, just not very much. Each painter (we added one at a time up to 6 painters at the end), each one was only a 4-5 damage increase on an assault frig sitting completely still. It took 6 painters fitted on a Raven and active on the frig to do double the damage it did with no painters.
The other test we did was the speed... the speed and explosion radius doesn't seem to work... it was the same exact damage sitting still as it was while the frig was moving. Nerfed? After skills and such, no, if everything is working correctly, which it doesn't seem to be atm with the explosion radius and the signature. We didn't bother testing it further than what I mentioned above.
I've shot NPC frigs non-webbed and webbed and it didn't seem to make a difference at all between the two, which was the second piece of evidence that told me the explosion radius and speed is having no effect, for good or bad. I didn't try out the long range vs. short range thing that some folks seem to be having.
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V I R I I News and KMS --> http://virii.homeip.net
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:30:00 -
[34]
If you check out my findings and data on my thread here you can see how painters effect missiles.
Essentially, if the target's signature is > the explosion radius of a missile, the missile hits for full damage. Using a painter at this point will have no effect, since the missile is already hitting with it's full strength.
However, when the target's signature radius is < the explosion radius of the missile, the painter will always increase the resulting missile damage (which will be less than maximum damage) by the same percentage that the target painter paints for. A Target Painter I will increase damage against a painted target by 25% as long as the painted signature radius is still less than the missile explosion radius.
ADD version: if a targe ship is smaller than the explosion radius of your missile, a painter will increase the missile damage. Otherwise, it won't.
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P1rate Dave
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:04:00 -
[35]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
If you check out my findings and data on my thread here you can see how painters effect missiles.
Essentially, if the target's signature is > the explosion radius of a missile, the missile hits for full damage. Using a painter at this point will have no effect, since the missile is already hitting with it's full strength.
However, when the target's signature radius is < the explosion radius of the missile, the painter will always increase the resulting missile damage (which will be less than maximum damage) by the same percentage that the target painter paints for. A Target Painter I will increase damage against a painted target by 25% as long as the painted signature radius is still less than the missile explosion radius.
ADD version: if a targe ship is smaller than the explosion radius of your missile, a painter will increase the missile damage. Otherwise, it won't.
ok ... how then do you explain the fact that painting the target while it isnt webbed is resulting in less damage from a missile, as i have already said i think painters are still bugged when it comes to painting and mwd'ing ship the sig radius is well above the explosion radius of the missile so they should do more damage
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Kiwimagic
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:10:00 -
[36]
So do target painters work?
And if they aren't working as well as they should for missile's is that ment to happen, as i read it they increase sig radius of painted ship. it doesn't say anything about capping the amount or the effect on frigates or inty's nor does it say through a complex calculation we will decide what damage your missile will do.
Sorry might of missed something in the threads I'm not a math guru.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:21:00 -
[37]
Originally by: P1rate Dave
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
If you check out my findings and data on my thread here you can see how painters effect missiles.
Essentially, if the target's signature is > the explosion radius of a missile, the missile hits for full damage. Using a painter at this point will have no effect, since the missile is already hitting with it's full strength.
However, when the target's signature radius is < the explosion radius of the missile, the painter will always increase the resulting missile damage (which will be less than maximum damage) by the same percentage that the target painter paints for. A Target Painter I will increase damage against a painted target by 25% as long as the painted signature radius is still less than the missile explosion radius.
ADD version: if a targe ship is smaller than the explosion radius of your missile, a painter will increase the missile damage. Otherwise, it won't.
ok ... how then do you explain the fact that painting the target while it isnt webbed is resulting in less damage from a missile, as i have already said i think painters are still bugged when it comes to painting and mwd'ing ship the sig radius is well above the explosion radius of the missile so they should do more damage
personally, I haven't run into this circumstance. Painters still seem to blow up the signature radius of a MWDing ship by an abnormal amount, but it shouldn't cause any decrease in missile damage. The missile will hit for full damage, which will then be lowered if the target is traveling faster than the missile explosion velocity. At least this is what I've observed so far. If you can replicate your incident, using stable velocities etc, I'd be interested to see how this is happening.
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P1rate Dave
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:27:00 -
[38]
i have tested it with two different ships both using the same orbit with the same velocity for each impact when painted missiles are doing less damage - see my original values
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Vilserx
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Posted - 2005.07.07 17:17:00 -
[39]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 02:27:43
The first part of the missile equation, which is essentially target ship signature / missile explosion radius * missile damage. If Signature / explosion > 1, max damage is used.
The range thing is unlikely to be an intended mechanism of the missiles.
Something is wrong here if I can be doing MAX cruise missile damage to a 1000m/s+ frigate at 80km, then only doing 30 damage to a 150m/s, webbed + painted frigate at 10km.
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VSX EVE Design |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.07 17:46:00 -
[40]
Sounds pretty ****** to me.
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Azrael Maxim
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Posted - 2005.07.08 07:56:00 -
[41]
I had some strange effects today when testing in a caracal.
Unpainted sansha frigs i hit with about 160 damage, and painted sansha frigs i hit with about 70 damage ??
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ducky fuzz
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Posted - 2005.07.08 09:24:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Siroc
1400mm can do anywhere between 0 and 2500 damage... whats wrong with the missles again?
missiles are guided so you get a perfect hit each time so damage should stay the same. 1400mm are not so you get shots just cliping the target, hence low damage if you have nothink constructive to say please dont bother.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.08 10:07:00 -
[43]
Uhm.... no. Not anymore Ducky. Read my threads on the missile formula and you'll see that is definately not true.
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2005.07.08 10:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: ducky fuzz
Originally by: Siroc
1400mm can do anywhere between 0 and 2500 damage... whats wrong with the missles again?
missiles are guided so you get a perfect hit each time so damage should stay the same. 1400mm are not so you get shots just cliping the target, hence low damage if you have nothink constructive to say please dont bother.
Personally, I'd take a weapon with a low chance to do very high damage over a weapon that just does very low damage every time. Missiles need wrecking shots now.
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* I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. *
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.07.08 11:12:00 -
[45]
Originally by: JoCool
Sounds perfectly fine to me, just like guns.
Whining that painters make guns hit worse is off subject. And also wrong. If it was like guns, there would be no problem.
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